The more I read, the more confused I get...

[Idaho45guy]

When I decided to start getting into reloading, I thought it would be pretty straight forward. I had one gun I wanted to reload for; my .45 colt Ruger BH Bisley 5.5".

I had a couple of boxes of Midway surplus 250gr LRN boolits, half a can of Trail Boss, and a fresh can of Lil Gun that my dad gave me. He also gave me 200rds of his reloads developed for my Cimarron Arms 1873 Peacemaker for CASS that he lost interest in, and consequently gave me the pistol for Christmas last year.

His reloads with 6grs of Trail Boss shoot amazingly well in my Ruger with nearly 1" groups at 25yds. I wanted to load up some heavier loads for when I use my Ruger for woods carry. Where I go there are grizzlies, cougars, and very large wolves.

I bought a mold for a 300gr boolit; the Lee Precision C452-300-Rf Double Cavity Mold. I just ordered the Lee Precision 452-255-Rf Double Cavity Mold to make some more plinking rounds.


I figured I would be able to go online and find concrete info that would tell me what powder to use with what boolit and how much would be safe in each pistol.


I found the Hornady XTP 250gr boolits for a decent price at Walmart, so I bought a box of those and see on Hogdon's website that they have a load specifically for that boolit with the Lil' Gun powder. Sweet. Loaded a batch and found them to be reasonably accurate but pretty stout.

Then I started reading some more and found that a few folks said that the Lil' Gun was too hot and could actually damage pistols. Great... Found some other posts that swore by Titegroup and H110. No H110 at my LGS so I bought a can of Titegroup. Meanwhile, my Lee melter arrives and I think I'm all set to cast some 300gr boolits and work up a load of bear stoppers for my elk hunting trip next week up by Montana. I get on the internet and check a couple of forums and load tables to find something using Titegroup and I read that Titegroup is also a hot powder and using it with cast boolits can damage my forcing cone. Really??!!

Then I get recommendations on three different types of powder all using different types of primers.

It's making a newbie like me very, very nervous. I'm essentially creating little mini-bombs to fire off in my hand and I thought there would be more agreement among knowledgeable reloaders about what is safe and what isn't and what works and what doesn't... I wasn't expecting there to be so much arguing and conflicting opinion about a practice that involves explosives and the potential for bodily injury.

I have the next three days off and want to cast some 300gr boolits and makes some bear loads using either Trail Boss, Titegroup, or Lil' Gun. Can it be done???

I'm looking at buying a Glock G29 and installing an aftermarket barrel so I can shoot cast boolits through it. I'm pretty sure the Titegroup is great for the smaller pistol loads... At least it won't go to waste...

[Idaho45guy]

And I just bought a second AR and part of the reason for getting into reloading was to be supplied in ammo during the likely Hillary reign of terror that may well be coming soon. So hopefully even if the Lil' Gun and Titegroup aren't going to work out for the .45 Colt, they might work for another one of my firearms...

[kungfustyle]

Tightgroup is a great powder. H110 is a great powder. Littlegun does run very hot. From what I understand Littlegun will after thousands of rounds start to erode the throat but that is what almost all powder will do especially when you push a round as fast as it can go. For what you are looking to do, I say develop a load with the little gun and only use it for your bear defense load. Just follow the Hodgon's website or other published data and you will be safe. I love thightgroup and use it all the time. Bulleseye burns faster and that is probably the most used powder out there. I know it seems very daunting when you are looking up information, however, powder companies wouldn't stay in business too long if it damaged guns under normal use. For example, Pyrodex black powder replacement isn't very kind to a bbl, but 10 shots a year shouldn't hurt any gun if its cleaned up after hunting/range trip.

[Djones]

Follow the ruger only data from hodgdon. I shoot lilgun out of my Rugers and Marlins. Attached below is a picture of my load data from the most recent batch. Make sure you work up your load from starting loads, looking for pressure signs along the way. You won't damage your gun with lilgun for your application. If you were a high volume shooter of lilgun, maybe then you would want to do some real research on the powder. Bottom line is hodgdon recommends its use for cast and jacketed in Ruger only loads.

http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt124/duckwhackercmon/20779F3D-FDCB-44C7-8415-1BED088F360B.jpg (http://s604.photobucket.com/user/duckwhackercmon/media/20779F3D-FDCB-44C7-8415-1BED088F360B.jpg.html)

Good luck on your elk hunt!

[Ed K]

Use the titegroup for loads closer to your trailboss loads and whatever mix of lilgun and H110 you can get your hands on and your Bisley will last you a decade or three until a worse case rebarrel. What tool wouldn't need some work after decade(s) of regular use (not abuse)? Best case - and quite possibly - it will last a lifetime.

[contender1]

First,,, I want to say I have the exact same Ruger 45 you have,, as well as several others. Most of mine are OM (3 screw) Rugers,,, but I also have other 45 Colts too.
I cast, I reload & in general,, most of my guns never see much factory ammo at all.
I also hunt with a handgun & have done so for over 35 years. I've taken over 100 deer with a handgun & even an elk. All that said,,, I'd like to offer this basic guideline for a hunting bullet/load combo.

First, use published data, by the makers, no matter the powder of choice. Match the bullet weight to a powder based upon their data. Then, start at the lower end of data, and work up a load for your uses.
Next,,, if you are serious about using a cast bullet for hunting,,, I strongly suggest you follow the wisdom of many, many other handgun hunters & load that cast slug to the 1000-1100 fps second range. A good cast bullet, with a proper nose design, (flat nose,) wide meplat, moving along at 1000-1100 fps will handle anything in North America. And you'll likely not recover the bullet as it will more likely pass completely through an elk, bear etc.
If you want more good info,,, check out the singleaction forum,,, where MANY good handgunners who are very serious about things hang out.

[44man]

I should write a book. Might sell one or two! :violin:Singleaction forum ---NO. It is here only of every forum on earth. Other forums all have a King that is never to be disputed, but here everyone is equal. More knowledge passes through the wires from here then anywhere.
Just search and ask.

[str8wal]

I have the next three days off and want to cast some 300gr boolits and makes some bear loads using either Trail Boss, Titegroup, or Lil' Gun. Can it be done???

Absolutely it can be done. Go to the Hodgdon website and work within the data. Opinions are like......

Lil Gun does run hotter than H110, but under "normal" use you will be fine. I use lil gun in my 357 and 45, as well as 450 BM and 218 Bee, with jacketed bullets and great accuracy. Start with proper starting loads and work up until you find a load that shoots well, and don't excede max. I find that the best accuracy usually comes at the higher end of the limits, but I wouldn't suggest starting there.

Take your time and enjoy the ride.

[shoot-n-lead]

You have gotten good info in this thread. I will only add that if you are going for full throttle cast bullet loads...you will almost surely have to use gas checks to prevent leading.

If you powder coat...you can try them without the check...I can shoot my powder coated bullets to about 1800fps without a check...not sure if all guns or bullets will do the same. And, for the record, I really have no use for full throttle loads...1100fps will do all that I need...but I don't have many grizzlies done here in GA.

[ole 5 hole group]

I'll just say this - a reloading manual is your friend and the internet can find more information faster for powders uncommon to a lot of shooters such as Vihtavuori powders etc. Google the powder manufacturer and look at their reloading data for your caliber and bullet weight.

The chances of you ever grenading a ruger revolver is pretty remote, as they are proof tested way beyond most double charges. Now if you're messing with bullseye, VV N310 etc - you could blow a handgun up if you tried hard enough.

Next year at this time, you'll be an ole hand and some advice you'll try and some advice you'll know doesn't mean squat relative to your firearms or method of reloading. One thing you should be concerned about is knowing which powders can not be downloaded - one such power in large cases is AA1680 - you'll most likely get a squib and if you don't see smoke coming from the cylinder gap or heard the primer pop - the mistake comes when you pull the trigger again before you check your barrel.:shock:

[Alstep]

The most important tool for reloading is a good manual. I've been loading for 60+ years and still refer to the Lyman book, and other manuals, constantly. Before you even load one round, READ and UNDERSTAND each step of the process. 90% of the internet information is garbage and could get you hurt. This site is the exception. Here's the place to ask questions, and for the most part, get good answers. Always verify loads by referring to the manual. Load & shoot safe.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

yep, I have the lee 2nd edition book and lymans cast boolit manual, lymans is a lot better, because lee barely has any cast info, and fewer powder selections per load. I look at my lyman book all the time, just re reading info and dreaming of future calibers I might have and how I would load them,lol

[clum553946]

If you use H110 or W296, don't go less than the published minimum loads & use magnum primers. Below minimums on those two can produce disastrous pressure.

[Poygan]

What is puzzling is that my Lyman cast bullet reloading book lists reduced loads for H110 and Hodgdon says no more than a 3% reduction....

[Idaho45guy]

Idaho45,

If I may, let me try to simplify the idea of balancing powder and projectile weights for a level of loading...

That was a great way to explain it; thanks!

[Idaho45guy]

If you use H110 or W296, don't go less than the published minimum loads & use magnum primers. Below minimums on those two can produce disastrous pressure.


What is puzzling is that my Lyman cast bullet reloading book lists reduced loads for H110 and Hodgdon says no more than a 3% reduction....
This is exactly the sort of thing that I was talking about that is so frustrating. One person says something definitive with confidence, and then another points out another definitive source that says something completely different. No offense meant to you guys at all. It's just a perfect illustration of why I'm nervous as hell doing anything with reloading since I can find information somewhere saying every thing I do from not age-hardening my boolits to using the wrong primers will result in disaster...

[shoot-n-lead]

This is exactly the sort of thing that I was talking about that is so frustrating. One person says something definitive with confidence, and then another points out another definitive source that says something completely different. No offense meant to you guys at all. It's just a perfect illustration of why I'm nervous as hell doing anything with reloading since I can find information somewhere saying every thing I do from not age-hardening my boolits to using the wrong primers will result in disaster...

Those statements do not contradict...both say not to go below minimum published loads.

AND...as has been pointed out to you...FOLLOW A MANUAL...not what someone on an internet forum tells you. They may be the same...but if you follow the manual...you will know that it is correct.

If you are this unsure of what you are doing, you have no business reloading without first having read through a reloading manual.

[Idaho45guy]

I've got the whole Ruger vs. old Colt thing down. I only load Ruger loads in brass cases and Colt safe loads in nickel cases; at least that's my system.

I think I have a good understanding of the whole process. It's the devils in the details and the endless debates regarding powders, primers, boolit hardness, etc that is confusing and surprising.

I just cast a small batch of 50 300gr boolits tonight and it was the first time I used my melter and the Lee aluminum molds. They turned out great and I'm proud of them. I've cast thousands of 500+ grain boolits for my .45-70 and for my dad's competition rifles, so I'm comfortable with casting and had a much shorter learning curve to get quality boolits.

It's just the powder issues that are confusing and how apparently pressure levels can be affected dramatically by factors such as hardness of lead, boolit weight, diameter of boolit, etc...

[Idaho45guy]

Loading up three new loads tonight using Titegroup and Lil' Gun. First will be using 250gr Hornady XTP boolits at .452 with 8.0grs of TG. CCI 300 primer. Around 983fps. These will be hopefully be my "wolf" loads. A hotter load with a hollow point that will hopefully still be manageable to shoot.

Next will be using my own cast 300gr lee C452-300-RF, CCI 300 primer, All boolits sized to .452, 17grs of Lil' Gun. Hopefully will be right at or just under 1000fps.

Last load will be the same boolits but using 8.5grs of Titegroup.

[Djones]

Good job starting at Hodgdon's suggested starting point with Lil'Gun. I would suggest two things if you have accuracy problems with your Lil'Gun load.

First would be to allow your bullets to age harden a few days before loading or shooting. I know this can be hard since you are an excited new caster and have a hunting trip coming soon.

Secondly, I have had trouble getting cases to seal completely with starting loads of Lil'Gun. If you notice soot on one part of the case neck it could be from lack of pressure. I found this to give inconsistent results and is one of the reasons why I load to 20 grains for my Ruger SBH and Marlin 1894 45 colts.

You are off to a great start. Enjoy the ride!

[44man]

The .45 Colt is like a 45-70. Old or weak guns need different. But if you know the .45, it still works no matter. So does the 45-70. The best, old guns still work.

[Idaho45guy]

Got out and shot all three different loads. None were as bad as that first batch of 23.5grs of Lil' Gun behind the XTPs... But, none of them did particularly well as far as groups go.

My gun just flat out hates the Hornady XTP 250gr boolit. Tried two different powders and pressures. It showed some preference for the 300gr cast boolit using the Titegroup over the Lil Gun, though. Still not up to my expectations, so I bought a can of Unique to give a try. Still no H110 for 45 miles...


Hornady 250gr XTP with 8.0grs of Titegroup:

178360

300gr cast boolits with 17grs of Lil' Gun. These hit hard:

178361

300gr cast boolits with 7.5grs of Titegroup. Not bad at all to shoot and was the first group I fired. The low flier was the first shot out of a clean and lightly oiled barrel. The last four made me pretty happy.

178362

Will try some more loads with the Unique next.

This is the powder selection at the only place that sells powder within 45 miles...

178363

[44man]

I consider the XTP's the best, most accurate bullets ever made. Just have to chose the right one for hunting, some open too fast but older .45's let them work better. It can be hard to get to spin depending on twist.
Ruger .45's prefer heavier with a 1 in 16" rate. I have no idea what other .45's are, like Colts or repros.
The best groups I get with all my revolvers, except the 45-70 has been with 2400 and 296.
For light bullets/boolits, for fun, Unique and 231 works just fine but I don't use those powders for deer. I never had any no. 9 so can't say. Seems to be a faster H110.
I fear Lil'Gun because of heat.

[str8wal]

But, none of them did particularly well as far as groups go.

Is this the same gun as in the other post with the tight throats? You might not get any load to shoot particularly well until you get that taken care of. The 250 XTP in my Bisley 45 will shoot inside of 4" @ 100 yards all day long, with but my wrists resting on the bags holding the gun in my hands unsupported. This is with a heavy dose of either H110 or lil gun. I was forced to use lil gun for a spell due to the lack of H110 around here, but prefer H110. This gun had tight throats as well when I originally got it and wouldn't shoot partucularly well even with jacketed, until I opened them up.

[Tom W.]

Maybe not much help, but my Ruger shot the RCBS 270 SAA cast bullet from COWW most accurately than any other bullet I tried, using close to top end published loads of either Lil' Gun, H 110 or 2400.

[Texas by God]

You dam skippy 44man. I like this forum. Lil Gun is better for me in .300 BO than my .357 Blackhawk. At least in the AR I can't see the atomic fireball Lil Gun produces.

[Idaho45guy]

Is this the same gun as in the other post with the tight throats? You might not get any load to shoot particularly well until you get that taken care of. The 250 XTP in my Bisley 45 will shoot inside of 4" @ 100 yards all day long, with but my wrists resting on the bags holding the gun in my hands unsupported. This is with a heavy dose of either H110 or lil gun. I was forced to use lil gun for a spell due to the lack of H110 around here, but prefer H110. This gun had tight throats as well when I originally got it and wouldn't shoot partucularly well even with jacketed, until I opened them up. It shoots my dad's reloads very, very well; 1.25" groups at 25yds. Those are low powered CASS loads using 6.0grs of Trail Boss behind a .453 surplus lead round-nose boolit that Midway no longer sells.

Will be getting those cylinders opened up soon...

[JSnover]

I learned to reload in the pre-internet era and never had a problem, other than slower response time for my questions. There are so many self-proclaimed experts out there, the Mighty InterWeb will often give you more contradictions than facts.
The other members steered you in the right direction when they recommended published data from the manufacturers, that's the best place to start since the last thing they want to hear is "you guys blew up my gun!!"

[44man]

You dam skippy 44man. I like this forum. Lil Gun is better for me in .300 BO than my .357 Blackhawk. At least in the AR I can't see the atomic fireball Lil Gun produces.
Each caliber is different and I hate the 4227's in most but they worked in the .357 Max. I suppose Lil'Gun might have a place. It was made for the .410 after all.
I don't have a .300 BO---WHAT FOR? I hunt deer and don't care if a shot causes a quake. What is a plastic, fantastic AR or a nine good for? WHAT can a .300 BO do? I don't even like a .357.
Not to get down on anyone because I understand, but a good gun is never to be abused. Powders are not all the same.
I might love a .300 BO for fun, who knows?

[Sean357]

Deleted, already mentioned.

Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk

[44man]

You know my friend bought a .25 cal pellet gun. Tank holds 3000 PSI. He sent it to have regulation system installed so every shot gets the same pressure as the tank goes down. Expensive in the end and to get the tank filled is a pain too. But to poke tiny groups at 50 yards is fun. No noise at all.
I don't want one, need to drive 2 states to fill the tank and have to leave it overnight to get topped off because of heat. It is great fun but I have limits.
I buy a great revolver for deer mostly but expect very small groups and want them forever so I protect them to live far after I am gone. I will not use anything to wear or harm a gun. To consider Lil'Gun over 296 makes me shake. Lower pressure with no better accuracy but why stick an acetylene torch down the bore?
I am fussy and dirt cheap with SS. Money does not come easy. I feel good with $2 in my wallet. Right now I have $1. Change in a box to make $2. My guns were not cheap but I had to sell too many super ones to get them. I refuse to torch them.
I worked my .45 Vaquero to do this at 50 yards, Five shots Creedmore. 178642 It has done less then an inch at 75 yards and I killed a deer over 100 to drop in place. 320 Lyman boolit. Yes 296. Fed 150 primer.
I don't even look at 25 yards, I start at 50 and go to 500 meters (547) yards. 50 is my work place to start.
Working the BFR in .500 JRH with a 440 gr boolit I designed and 296, I did this at 100 yards, benched. 178643
My revolvers are not to be denied. I know them.

[High Desert Hunter]

I have the AccuSport SS 5 1/2" Bisley Blackhawk, it really loves the RCBS 45-270SAA bullet, over Unique, HS6, 2400, lilgun, H110, or 300-MP. For bullets over 300 grains I tend to stck with HS6, 2400, H110, and 300-MP, I have a mold from Mountain Molds that drops a 325gr GC bullet that is very accurate in both my 45 Colt and 454 Casull.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Those statements do not contradict...both say not to go below minimum published loads.

AND...as has been pointed out to you...FOLLOW A MANUAL...not what someone on an internet forum tells you. They may be the same...but if you follow the manual...you will know that it is correct.

If you are this unsure of what you are doing, you have no business reloading without first having read through a reloading manual.

This is probably the best advice anyone has given you yet.

You need to get a Lyman #50 Loading Manual and read it. The first 1/3 of that manual is all about reloading the different types of Brass Cartridges. The 2nd 2/3's is load data for practically every common cartridge there is.

You need to go to a real written source when learning any new discipline.

The internet is not necessarily a "Good Source," as Al Gore invented it, and he's not right in the head!

Randy

[Idaho45guy]

Was up in Spokane, WA last weekend with my girlfriend and stopped by The General Store and loaded up on primers and 110 powder, shell holders, racks, etc. Got all the stuff I couldn't find locally. Will have to work up some loads with the 110 to see how it goes.

[Markbo]

You have gotten some great advice and a lot of information already. I have only been hadloading about 10 years. Started a little late in life. Let me advise you part of what I was advised:

1. Never trust loading data from the internet unless directly from the powder manufacturers website and only if using the exact same bullet. Do not handload anything until you have gotten and read at least 2 reloading manuals.

2. Get 2 reloading manuals. The ABCs of Reloading and Lymans Cast Bullet Handbook were recommended to me here. Pick one of them up. Read it cover to cover. Then go back and read it again, this time highlighting things - important safety information, data specific to you/your caliber of choice and interesting information you want to remember.

3. Repeat with the other manual.

4. Now you are just barely understanding the basics and probably think you can handle this.

5. Go buy your reloading equipment and supplies. This one item could take pages in detail. I wont bore you. FWIW I still refer to those 2 manuals on a regular basis.

One of the best things I learned was a heavy for caliber lead bulket (270gr or more in .45 Colt) at moderate velocity is all you will ever need. This has proven true to me from .32 H&R up through .475 Linebaugh. You do not HAVE to push a bullet to maximum to make it super effective AND they will be more enjoyable to shoot!

After you have become good at shooting and more knowledgable, you can start increasing bullet weight and/or velocity which will gain you only one thing: range. That higher velocity will allow you to stretch out any cartridge - if you want to. Personally - and this is just me - I dont hunt 100yds+ with a revolver. I just dont. So my shooting is always enjoyable for longer when at the range. I hae worked up some super loudenboomer awful loads for handguns. I h ave them. I shoot them. I dont hunt with them

One more thing: Get or make your own log book for each firearm. Keep copious detailed notes about loads, accuracy and notes such as dirty, or heavy recoil or shoots low. Think about it...you may try 3 or 4 bullets in one gun. You may try 3 or 4 powders with all the bullets and you may try 5 different powder charges fir each combination. This doesnt even account for primer and brass changes! No way you will remember all that AND how each one shoots.

Again this is just the bear bones start of what was given me - mostly from men here. Now...get started!

[P Flados]

If you want a defense round against big bear, you need to find a reliable source of Ruger/Contender load data for 45 Colts.

As noted here, more than a few recommend around 1100 fps or so in a heavy bullet 45 Colt.

I have a contender 45 colt that I ran heavy loads in until I satisfied my need for wrist pain.

A 300 gr is a little heavier that anything I shot or have Ruger/TC data for.

Because not all vendors want to mess around with the "Ruger /Contender Only" stuff, you probably have a lot less guidance that you would like at this point.

Your Lil Gun sounds about right for top velocities with this application. The "burns hot" issue should not really be a problem. For you bullet and gun, I give you a 99% chance of wearing out your wrist before you wear out your gun. Just because this powder has a burn rate that is very close to WW296 / H110 (discussed more below), I would probably only want to use it at real close to the exact guidance in a good manual.

The next slower powder on my charts is the WW296 / H110 pair. These are the same powder and may be give you top velocities with the 300 gr bullets, but these are probably not a good choice for a novice in this application. These powders do not ignite well when there is too much empty space in the case and unlike most other powders the poor ignition can cause real problems. These powder are really good for a lot of full power big revolver loads and the risk of problem is low when used as recommended. It is just that the typical "start low" and a few other "rule of thumb" type things do not apply. There are really only a few example of powders that have this type of concern.

For the other powders, you are on the fast end which should work great for lighter loads. Just pay attention and make sure you do not double charge or get mixed up on how much to use.

[44magLeo]

One thing to remember, not many hand loaders have access to a ballistic lab to pressure test loads. Powder companies, bullet manufacturers, reloading manual publishers do.
All these sources info differs to some extent. They use different guns, different lots of powder, primers,bullets and brass. Each of these variables effect pressures.
I have around ten different manuals, to start a load development process I get info from all of them. Average the starting loads to start then work up. The closer I get to the average max load I really pay more attention to pressure signs.
I also have a chronograph. I use for load development also. As I develop a load I watch the velocity. When I start to reach the max velocity in the books, even if the powder charges are not to max that's a good place to stop.
Velocity has a direct proportion to powder charge. Even with a different lot of powder or primers. If the book says they get 1000 fps with 24 grs of powder and you get 1000 fps with 22 grs of powder the pressure will be very close even with your smaller charge.
Leo