1860 Army for deer?

[taco650]

Will it be enough? Whose done it?

[corbinace]

Many have been killed with a 22LR, so it can be done. But, respectfully, I couldn't condone the use of your BP revolver.

[rodwha]

There is a group of guys who use them to hunt hogs.

Quite frankly, using a more energetic powder and a boolit, these are no less powerful than a standard .45 ACP and can even outpace the standard .45 Colt (not speaking of cowboy ammo).

The Ruger Old Army holds roughly 5 additional grains of powder compared to my Pietta Remington New Army Model which is similar enough to the Colt Army.

Triple 7 powder gives very similar velocity as Swiss or Olde Eynsford (by volume).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LP_dwo2nThA

I'd more than condone the use if one of those 3 powders is used. Note the difference comparing T7 to standard Goex (not to be confused with their Olde Eynsford powder). And that's with a 15% reduced load, which isn't necessary for safety as some people erroneously conclude.

[Omnivore]

Well; funny you should ask. I recently did some velocity testing of 44 caliber percussion revolver loads. With 30 grains of Old Eynsford 3F powder, a thin card wad and a 240 grain Kaido lube groove heeled bullet I got an average velocity of 969.6 ft/sec, which comes to 501 ft. lbs. Thats well into the upper 45 Colt ballistics territory. Only a few standard pressure (meaning NOT the "Ruger Only" loads, but the SAAMI standard pressure loads) listed in my Speer manual will generate higher energies, and none of the standard 45 Colt loads in my Hornady manual are as powerful.


Testing was done using a standard 8" Peitta Remington Army revolver "Target" model (same undersized chambers as the other standard price Pietta 44s, but with an adjustable rear sight) and a CED Millennium chronograph. Your 8" Colt will handle the same load, and should deliver similar energy.


Loads using lighter bullets posted smaller numbers. I have more loads to test in more guns, but that same load listed above posted an average muzzle energy of more than 600 foot pounds from a Remington 18" revolving carbine. That's getting into 357 Magnum revolver territory.


There's more than enough power there, if you can get a 240 grain bullet to load and shoot straight in your Colt, and get the sights regulated for a point of aim hit at reasonable hunting distances. I would NOT recommend jumping out into this season's hunting if you haven't done the prerequisite testing, experimentation and sight regulation. Getting your gun and load ready is a project, and you would need to start in the spring or summer and have it all figured out ahead of time.


My Colt guns have been refit for a proper barrel-to-frame fit and a small, consistent cylinder gap when the barrel wedge is tapped in tight, the loading ports opened up to accept the long conicals, and the sights regulated so I'm not guessing with a two foot estimated hold-off at some unknown distance in the field. The loading plungers have been refit to load flat point conicals without distorting them, and my Target Remington has had a longer, flat nosed loading plunger that is fully supported upon entry to the chambers so it isn't forced off center as happens in all other Remingtons. Colt's 1860, '61 and '62 "creeping" loading lever is superior, and only a good refit of the plunger nose shape is needed. This can be done using epoxy to form-fit the plunger to the bullet nose while aligned straight in the gun.


I'm all for it, but you begin to see that some preparation time is needed.


If you have the typical Colt repro that shoots way high and off to one side, and using round ball loads, then I agree with Corbinace. If you can get real, real close, maybe, but there are better choices.


Even with all the above, if I end up using a percussion revolver this season on a deer it's going to be either a Colt Walker modified as above and fitted with a fiber optic front sight, using 45 to 50 grains of O.E. 3F, or the Remington 18" Carbine using the load that produces over 600 foot pounds in that long barrel. That is, IF I get a chance to practice with those loads in those guns and I am confident with one of them afterwards. Otherwise I'll rely on the good old fifty caliber rifle which generates muzzle energy approaching the modern 44 Magnum pistols. I have near two months to work it out prior to my local M.L. Season.

[corbinace]

Wow!! I am happy to stand corrected. My experience has been with standard Repro Italian arms and round ball. I was never impressed, but now my eyes have been opened a bit wider and I can see the error of my ways. Very intriguing.

Please disregard my previous post and carry on with a few progress reports as you work up this project.

Thanks for posting so that we can learn from those who have been there.

[Hellgate]

Be prepared to do some tracking. Maybe even get a dog to help. I've had deer run a couple hundred yards full tilt when shot through the chest with a .30-06. A shoulder hit is likely to merely wound. You are going to need to hit it in the head, neck, or heart so practice your aim. The ballistics of an 1860 Army are closer to that of a 38 Special. Not very many people consider that an adequate deer cartridge.

[rodwha]

Be prepared to do some tracking. Maybe even get a dog to help. I've had deer run a couple hundred yards full tilt when shot through the chest with a .30-06. A shoulder hit is likely to merely wound. You are going to need to hit it in the head, neck, or heart so practice your aim. The ballistics of an 1860 Army are closer to that of a 38 Special. Not very many people consider that an adequate deer cartridge.


Only if you use one of the various weaker powders. Using Swiss, Olde Eynsford, or Triple 7 will produce no less than .45 ACP or even above standard .45 Colt (not cowboy loads) performance.

Look at the link I posted showing Mike Beliveau testing a 5.5" and 7.5" ROA using a ball, Lee conical, and Kaido's 255 grn (modified Lee 255 grn .45 Colt bullet) using both standard Goex and reduced loads of Triple 7 (reducing the loads isnt necessary for safety as many erroneously believe). The T7 loads are nothing close to .38 Spl levels. The ball produced a bit under 400 ft/lbs and the boolits produced a little under 500 ft/lbs.

It's all in the powder used...

[Hanshi]

I think the power you're getting with either Swiss or OE would take deer quite well. I've killed many with a .357 and loads somewhat less energetic than what you quote.

[Texas by God]

I have a similar plan. I have customized my Colt clone brass frame .44 with dovetailed barrel sights and removing the V from the hammer top. I average 1.5"@25yds with round ball, felt wad over 25 grs of Elephant FFFG. From my blind I will limit shots on does or spikes to 20 yds. Of course a rifle will be present! Best, Thomas.

[koger]

I have taken 2 deer with my Ruger Old Army, will take it next ML season, feel nekid without it! I also trailed up a gutshot doe by a fellow hunter, and only shot I had at a badly wounded animal was 18yds off hand, with a 210 Lee conical, took half the head off! DRT! The others I shoulder lung shot with the conical, soft lead,25-35 yds, neither ran over 50yds. Paper ballistics don't always show the true killing power in real world conditions.

[Beagle333]

I say no. It's not enough to do it reliably and quickly. But every time one of these threads comes up, I get shouted down by guys who claim they've killed deer and hogs and such at 40-50 yards from a tree stand with their 1851 or 1860 and are confident enough to promote the use of such. I have even seen claims of doing just that with 30gr of BP and a .457 round ball. Get out there and try it. You'll know the real answer pretty quickly.

[johnson1942]

if it is broadside and 50 yards shoot it right in the middle of the withers three inched up into the neck. it will drop like a rock. the spine will be severed or shocked. i have a native american friend who shoots buffalo for wakes with a 257 roberts or 38/55 at 100 yards in this body spot and drops them with one shot. he has shot 330 some buffalo this way, you gun is enough if you do this method. i shot a annoying doe at 125 yards with a 22 rimfire several years back dropped like a rock. dany thing was eating my garden every night and i ended it for good. when i worked with the cree nation on the n.dak canada border the old timer natives hunted moose with a 22 rimfire rifle. they hid in the willows and shot them behind the ear at20 yards and dropped the moose every time. for a broadside shot the middle of the wither up 3 inches. ive learned alot for the natives and now you did also. go for it and you will feel very proud and independent.they would also wrap masking tape around smaller than 12 gauge shot shells so they fit a 12 gauge and bag dozens of duck in the spring to fill a freezer. they hunted with any thing they could get and did it well. again, go for it and join the club of men who know how to bring meat to the table for the family.

[rodwha]

I say no. It's not enough to do it reliably and quickly. But every time one of these threads comes up, I get shouted down by guys who claim they've killed deer and hogs and such at 40-50 yards from a tree stand with their 1851 or 1860 and are confident enough to promote the use of such. I have even seen claims of doing just that with 30gr of BP and a .457 round ball. Get out there and try it. You'll know the real answer pretty quickly.

I wouldn't use my pistols as a primary weapon beyond 25 yds. I'm just not a pistolero.


When I first got my hands on my Ruger Old Army the first thing I wanted to know was if it was powerful enough to hunt with. EVERYONE said it was woefully underpowered and no better than a standard .38 Spl. That was until I found people who didn't use the weaker powders more common, and most of these guys used a bullet and not a ball.

And I keep looking because a few claims doesn't mean that much, right? And the longer I looked the more I found. And then the ball users came more into view. When I first got my .50 cal Lyman muzzeloader I was again looking for answers as the calculators showed me a ball was worthless beyond about 50 yds with my "understanding" of modern projectiles. But I was shown far too much with a ball working quite well at distances well beyond twice what I thought might work. But then you look at what an all from a pistol has at 25 yds and you see it is quite similar to a ball from a rifle at the distances I was shown brought deer down with. But that's with the more energetic powders.

As I've shown with the more energetic powders and with a boolit these are no less powerful than a .45 ACP/.45 Colt. The .45 Colt has brought home a lot of venison and I see no reasonable reason to think otherwise.

The Navy '51 was mentioned and this I have not heard of used outside of the Civil War, and still not mentioned as effective for hunting. Without a boolit I'd say it wasn't adequate whatsoever and with a conical/boolit marginal at best with an energetic powder and worthless with any other. But I have nothing quantifiable to base this on.

*Disclaimer*
I have not used a BP gun to take an animal and have no experience yet. But collectively I've seen FAR too much evidence to show it is more than up to the task assuming you can do your part when speaking of a ball with a propper powder. And more than adequate with a conical/boolit (.44/.45 cal).

[taco650]

My shots would be limited to ~25 yards and clear broadside at that.. The sights are not precise enough for me and the load is weak by modern standards. I know it has been done and this is something I'm just thinking about. It only appeals to me because the only other firearm I have that qualifies for the unit I plan to hunt is a 12 gauge with slugs-obviously a better choice in every way except in the recoil and carrying dept.

[rodwha]

If you can get standard Goex you could likely get Goex Olde Eynsford.

[Tar Heel]

Well.....they used to kill humans just fine and a standard whitetail deer isn't much more mass than a human. In fact, I've seen some boys at twice or three times the mass of a southern whitetail. I'd be willing to bet that if you place the shot well and keep the distance respectable....say less than 40 yards..... that the gun will work just fine on a whitetail deer.

[mazo kid]

Yes, the gun is up to the job.....if YOU are. I have seen rifle shooters miss a deer at 40-50 yards!

[Omnivore]

If you can get standard Goex you could likely get Goex Olde Eynsford.

We all can get Old Eynsford. It's called mail order, and it's easier than ever, now that we have this internet thingy.

[Char-Gar]

Will it be enough? Whose done it?

If will be enough IF you have the tracking skills of a Maine hunting guide, or a Comanche Indian.

[koger]

The most important thing is if you handgun skills are up to it. I learned to shoot from a old Marine, as a youth and some other local sharp shooters, and saved my money and used a Lee Loader, mallet type, as a teenager to wear out a Smith an Wesson model 66-4". , .357 with full power and .38 spl loads. I literally shot the throat out, wore out a High Standard Double Nine .22 revolver, but learned how to be very accurate with a handgun, out to 100-150yds. Roger Johnson-Johnson 1942 can attest to that, he has seen me shoot a handgun from 40-100yds when out there with him, and do it accurately. Last year I shot the KY Corrections Assoc Pistol team match, Dept of Juvenile justice team, we were allowed since we are under the Justice Cabinet and our team beat the Game wardens, state police, sheriffs, probation and parole, Ky Prison Guards and placed first overall, ahead by nearly 200pts. I shot well, but was actually the weakest man on the team, speed wise.

As stated previously that I took 3 deer with a Ruger Old Army revolver, it had been gone thru by me, custom spring kit, hand polished, and I had probably burnt a can of 3fffg Goex with the Lee conical, and loads that I found would shoot. 1 inch groups off sandbags at 25yds were not uncommon, and 4-5 inch groups offhand at 40yds were common, more than minute of deer shoulder. We all know, big soft lead slugs, at BP velocitys, hit hard, do damage, and punch thru. Shoot the gun till you are comfortable IN YOUR SELF LIMITED RANGE, and you will have fun and take a deer. It also your responsibility, to know that range, and your limitations, and make sure you keep inside that, to make a clean, humane kill and not let the animal suffer.

[quail4jake]

That's a big 10-4 Koger! Handgun skills are more important than any techy talk or theories. That .44 revolver, well tuned and sighted is plenty within the shooters comfort range. The one imperative bit of gunsmithing is getting the front sight height right to hit where you want, I had to make a new brass sight .115" higher than the factory sight just so that I'm not aiming at hooves to hit heart! Now we shoot groundhogs at 40 yards...on a good day. Powder, yeah, powder...well you could use Swiss or swiss rolls, old granddad or gopro blahh blahh. Just get the load that works and shoot, shoot, shoot
When I first started shooting a smoothbore I thought that my potential to make reliable hits would be nil. But I tried patching balls and different powder charges etc. and it all shot the same as a paper cartridge made to 1816 specs. Then one day I filled a cartridge box with 40 rounds and stood at 50 yards firing one after the other without stopping. By the end I was reliably hitting the 10" steel target just looking down the barrel at the target. I killed a doe on the run with that same 1842 that year by instinctive shooting. To some degree the same principle holds true for the revolver. Shoot a lot, then shoot more.

[swathdiver]

Will it be enough? Whose done it?

It's enough if you do your part and put the ball where it's supposed to go. A .44 Cap and Ball Sixgun whether using a round ball or a Kaido Conical is plenty powerful with Olde Eynsford or Swiss BP to kill a deer. You'll be good out to about 50 yards with a round ball and about double that with the conical.

Cap and ball six shooters kill all out of proportion to what the paper ballistics suggest. An 1860 Army is far more powerful than a .38 Special when properly loaded. Even .36 caliber '51 Navies have been used to kill hogs and that was with the old pointy conicals back during the war!

[charlie b]

I surprised myself with an old Remington replica I built from a kit back in the 70's. Shot it for a long time with the recommended loads. Then I got a chronograph. So, I started adding more powder. 138gn ball, full cylinder of powder, and it hit 1300fps. So, think of it as a .357Magnum solid nose slug.

Accuracy. I was good with it out to about 25yds, ie, 3-4" groups. Never hunted with it but sure it would do the job.

Colt open top? Chronograph it and see what you are getting out of it. Figure out how well you can shoot it. Not group size. You can have a 1" group but if it doesn't go where you want it to then it is no good for hunting. How many 9 and 10 ring shots can you make?

THen figure out if you want to take it hunting.

[WILCO]

You'll know the real answer pretty quickly.

The price of experience.

[taco650]

Went to the range yesterday with the 1860. At 20 yards I got 8" groups-obviously not acceptable. I was also using a .451 ball which did not leave a lead ring on the chamber mouth so I think that may be the problem.

My attitude was poor as well due to three "range experts" who began to advise me on my load and range rule violations (even though they were making others themselves, just not the one I made). Their load advice was unsolicited and came even before I had set up a target or loaded. I spoke to the range officer (its a public range), who I am friends with, as I was leaving about them and he said I did make a violation but that it wasn't a big deal. He also said they come every Wednesday so I advised him I won't be coming on Wednesday any more. They aggravated me so much I shot only two cylinders full and packed it in. Guess they got into my head a little so shame on me.

Anyway, time to try some .454 size projectiles and see how they work.

[rodwha]

The projectiles certainly need to leave a ring of lead for a proper seal and friction fit so that they don't back out from recoil.

Have you tried various volumes of powder? I never tried less than 25 grns of 3F as I feel that's a marginal load. I tried increments of 5 grns as I use an adjustable rifle measure with 10 grn increments. My Pietta Remington NMA did its best at 30 grns and my Ruger does best with 35 grns.

Many people state that a 6-8" group is good enough for hunting. I strive for 4" as range estimation may be a bit off as well as any excitement, though I can't say I've been stricken with buck fever. But you never know I suppose and I'd prefer to err on the side of caution.

[John Boy]

A 210gr bullet in a ROA at 840 fps has a KO factor of 11 ... Foolish load for hunting deer!

[rodwha]

And what is the KO factor of a 0.490" 177 grn ball @ 1000 fps?

[koger]

John Boy, tell that to the deer I killed cleanly with the ROA, and 33 grains of 3fffg! I know what it did, was within my range, and would do it again. I have taken 53 deer with all types of muzzleloaders, to flintlocks, and most experts, and paper ballistics, don't add up to real world field experience!!

[Omnivore]

Again, I got 969.6 fps average from a Pietta 8" Remington 44 with a 240 grain bullet. That's over 500 ft lbs and a KO factor of 14. That's with 30 grains Old Eynsford 3F and a thin card under the bullet. Energy is on par with the upper range in standard pressure 45 Colt. The Colt '60 Army will do the same with the same load. If you can't take a deer with that, at appropriate distance, you're doing it wrong.

rodwha; from my 24" barrel Lyman 50 cal rifle and 110 grains Goex 2F I get closer to 1600 fps at the muzzle with a .495" ball. That's a KO factor of 21. With 110 grains Pyrodex P it was doing more like 1900 fps.

I haven't seen KO factors discussed in years. For one thing there are too many other variables. Bullet design is a major one, and it doesn't figure into the number. Same goes for energy and velocity though. Therefore it's time to bring up shot placement once again, which is more important than any of those other things. Stick a 22LR pistol in the deer's ear and it'll drop it where it stands.

[Tar Heel]

I haven't seen KO factors discussed in years. For one thing there are too many other variables.

The biggest variable is that deer don't know how to read. I tried to explain the KO Factor to a dead deer once that had a hole through its heart but for some dang reason - she wasn't interested in KO Factors or muzzle velocity or any other such human academic material. That old round ball did its job just fine.

[rodwha]

Omnivore: The 1000 fps velocity was for a PRB at 100 yds where it's well known to give complete passthroughs while taking out ribs or shoulders. It has a value of 12. A .45 cal bullet with a much higher sectional density certainly ought to penetrate better...

[rheagunman]

I had a close encounter with a big ole narly buck one time & all i had was my rifle. From then on i have carried a pistol with me. Just the thought of having more than one shot has made it easier to still hunt.

[Omnivore]

The biggest variable is that deer don't know how to read. I tried to explain the KO Factor to a dead deer once that had a hole through its heart but for some dang reason - she wasn't interested in KO Factors or muzzle velocity or any other such human academic material. That old round ball did its job just fine.

tar heel; that's a good response. I like it.

I would only point out that the issue at hand is the power of the percussion Army revolver. It is a legitimate question to ask; "I's this gun adequate for the purpose?" By measuring its energy and power we can say for a fact that **when loaded just so** and fired from an 8" barrel it is essentially a 45 Colt, which I don't believe anyone here would say is under-powered for the task.

Those who poo-poo numbers and measurements can poo-poo all they want, but they'll remember and quote my numbers at some stage, or at least they'll repeat that the 44 Army can equal a standard 45 Colt. You can't make that claim without having the means to get the numbers. So just like prissy little socialists who hate the people they rely upon for their sustenance (tax payers) so too will the non-numbered insult the numbered while relying on them for information.

The other issue is legality. Different states place different kinds of restrictions or requirements on the guns that are approved by your overlords for hunting certain game. Here in Washington an Army revolver would not quite exactly meet the minimum requirement of 45/45/8 (45 caliber, 45 grains, minimum 8" barrel) for deer, but a Colt Walker would, as I read it.

[Rojelio]

Not a deer, but a surgically placed Lee conical right below the ear dropped this 150lb. boar in his tracks. He didn't even kick or squeal.

Load was 40 gr. of homemade powder chronographed at ave. 950fps. Distance 20 yds. from a tree stand.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb280/rojelio0/Ruger%20Old%20Army/IMG_20160613_200417237_zpsdtvdpvnm.jpg

[rodwha]

Oh my! We have a bleeder!

[dondiego]

Where did you get those nice grips for your ROA?

[Rojelio]

Where did you get those nice grips for your ROA?

They were on the gun when I got it. Made out of some kind of plastic. Sorry, can't tell you who made them.

[Good Cheer]

Well, looks like it aint Wednesday.

[taco650]

Found out my 1860 Army works on armadillos
178973

[EMC45]

Found out my 1860 Army works on armadillos
178973GA armadillo

[quail4jake]

Sweet!

Found out my 1860 Army works on armadillos
178973