How critical are primers?

[Idaho45guy]

About to load my first batch of .45 Colt using 23.5 grains of Lil' Gun behind a Hornady 250gr XTP boolit. Hogdon load data calls for a Winchester Large Pistol primer. They don't sell those around here. All I found were CCI Large Pistol. Only place that carried the CCI LPM was sold out. That's a 45-mile radius from my house...

I know the primer plays a role in the performance of the load, but not sure how critical it is. I know the CCI primers are harder and resist flattening better than others in hotter loads...

[Radarsonwheels]

If you can look up some recipes with your primer to compare that would help. I tend to use non magnum primers a little bit interchangably but i almost never flirt with max loads. If you are near the bottom of the powder weight for your load I wouldn't worry much about it.

[bouncer50]

Really a good question to ask. I been reloading for over 30 years but i never notice a different in pistol loads but i use faster burning powders. A rifle their might be a different with slower burning powder needing a magnum primer. I am having a problem in my area just finding any primer or powder. CCI primer are good and so are other i have used. Good luck finding magnum primer now a days in pistol or rifles. Old rule of thumb slower burning powder need hotter primer. But now a days beggar of primer or powder have to use what they can find.

[Idaho45guy]

Max load is 25.5 grains, so I should be fine. I found other loads with other powders using CCI LP, but all loads with Lil' Gun call for CCI LPM or WLP...

[Idaho45guy]

Really a good question to ask. I been reloading for over 30 years but i never notice a different in pistol loads but i use faster burning powders. A rifle their might be a different with slower burning powder needing a magnum primer. I am having a problem in my area just finding any primer or powder. CCI primer are good and so are other i have used. Good luck finding magnum primer now a days in pistol or rifles. Old rule of thumb slower burning powder need hotter primer. But now a days beggar of primer or powder have to use what they can find.

Great info, thanks!

[DougGuy]

AFAIK, the brisance goes CCI 300 then WLP, then CCI 350 standard to magnum with WLP in the middle to be used for either one. The CCI 300 large pistol will work fine you probably won't even be able to detect a difference unless you shoot both types over a chrony.

[44man]

Why Lil-Gun? Burns so hot it can erode steel. I use the fed 150 in my .45 loads with 296 but a WLP has merit but never a mag primer. You read books with no merit.
My .44 or .45 will never see a mag primer.

[OS OK]

We pondered this many years back...so...we loaded 10 each of the .45 Colts over a 'middle of the road' dose of Unique...10 were standard LPP's and 10 were Magnum LPP's...interesting results too.

Basically for 'this' combination above, we saw a 20 - 25 FPS increase in the Magnum primed loads...but...heck, I'm not sure I could call this 'official' as my chrony might not even be able to give the correct readout down to that small value.

I don't exchange at random but on 'middle of the road' powder loads of pistol rounds...I wouldn't hesitate to exchange in a pinch.

[dragon813gt]

Primers are powder specific. Winchester's pistol primers are rated for both non and magnums. If the loads are calling for a CCI LPM then you want a LPM to light the powder off properly. I don't play around when if comes to hard to ignite fine ball powders. Brand is irrelevant and it's the type that matter. I would not hesitate to use another brand of LPM primers. Start low and work up like you normally would.

[44man]

Understand a mag primer can push out a boolit before ignition. You can see a velocity increase but is that important? Why is velocity more important?
Every primer post will list more velocity for a mag but show groups if it is so important. Nobody ever has. I can.177988 Cold test at -20°. Standard still shot best with the .44.

[44man]

Trust me. Case capacity is where primers work. The .44 and .45 are not large enough. Get to the .475 and .500 you need a mag LP primer but neither needs a LR primer. In fact you can go over pressure.
All of you want to see velocity first. WHY? I still don't think anyone has ever made the revolver shoot like I have. Hang steel all over but an out of box will do as good.
When I see you get 50 fps more I know you are out of touch.

[osteodoc08]

Any ball powder loaded to max levels with light for caliber bullets can erode the forcing cone on a revolver. I've used pounds and pounds of Lil Gun with heavy for caliber boolits in 41 and 45 colt without issue.

I did did make the mistake years ago with using it with a light for caliber boolit and quit using it in that role.

There have been many vocal opponents to using Lil Gun including Freedom Arms, so you have to be the judge.

As far as primers, I've used CCI LPP almost exclusively, including with LG and 296. Never had issue with any reasonable NW GA temperature.

[44man]

False assumption. Heat is the destroyer and ball powders are not to blame. Might be a little sand blasting on edges but no burn out. Powders are coated to control burn rates. Lil-Gun has no coating for control. It is instant fire. It was made for the .410. Every powder exceeds steel melting but time and distance cures it.

[OS OK]

Here's a little treatice on powder/propulsion/temperature I did some time ago...never found one for Pistol Powders but only difference is that they are sooo much faster....the same scenario would occur in a shorter distance and lower pressures.

'The Wizardry of Propulsion'
This following 'interpretation' is from an article published in "SPEER, Manual #7 for Reloading Ammunition", pub. 1966-7. author; DR. Edgar L. Eichhorn.

I had to read it several times endeavoring to understand exactly what happens in this 'Internal Ballistics' subject as it was different than I'd imagined. Another problem for me was this event all took place in 1.35 milliseconds, .00135 second, 135/100,000's second. PDQ< 'pretty damn quick'. When I drew a pair of lines horizontally across the paper and imagined those lines representing my rifle barrel and filled in the information presented and realized that those lines also represented a 'time line'…facts started to sort themselves out and these numbers started to make perfect sense.

I have followed the threads regarding 'Powder burn Rates' and found them very informative. The posts make it clear to me that some of us, try as we might, do not have a true or factual understanding of this sequence of events. Our choices in Powders in many instances are unfounded and misunderstood. On the other end…some here have a very in depth understanding and their explanations parallel findings found in 'white papers' published in 'Acamemian' circles where Physicist and the like baffle each other with the latest minutia in their fields. The 'bottom line' regarding all this is…Us 'Blue Collar' types don't usually have a clue as to what these people are talking about. On the other hand, we do understand clearly presented facts.


The 'Pyrostatic Epoch' begins with 'primer ignition'
elapsed time (et.) 5/100,000's second
the boolit is just this instant going to 'START' to move, but it has not
6,000 lbs./sq.in. pressure develops, the brass swells in chamber and seals it
4,000* F. temperature/in chamber
3 1/2% of powder charge is consumed

The 'Propulsive Epoch' begins, the tip of the boolit has traveled 1 inch, is now fully in lands/grooves and engraved, acceleration has begun
et. 40/100,000's second
70,000 lbs./sq.in. and pressure is now at maximum
3,470* F. temperature is maximum
38% of powder charge is consumed
1,000 FPS Velocity and climbing
681.8 MPH and heading toward the sound barrior [ V x FPS x .6818 = MPH ] {this my extrapolation, hope it is correct.)

The boolit has traveled 9 inches and the 'Propulsive Epoch' has ended
et. 75/100,000's second
24,000 lbs./sq. in. pressure and is in 'decline' as the accelerating boolit is making more volume behind it than the 'hi-pressure gasses' are able to fill.
2,300* F. also in decline
100% of charge is consumed
2,200 FPS Velocity and climbing as it is under 'Hot expanded gas propulsion' only, from here on out
1,499 MPH has broken the sound barrier and continues to climb

The boolit is exiting the 27 in. barrel
et. 135/100,000's second…1.35 millisecond… .00135ms
6,000 lbs./sq. in. remaining pressure flashes into atmosphere and is luminous to the eye…this is where some of us remember to put in our 'earplugs'.
1,490* F. gasses and powder and lube smoke fill the air, eyes pop and everyone grins real wide. The virginity of a fresh 'bullseye' is currently at risk!
2,700 FPS Velocity and this now is in decline
1,840 MPH and if it travels downrange aprox. 900 yards it will again cross back through the sound barrier where its RPM will be a critical factor in flight.
162,000 RPM as it emerges from this 1:12 twist barrel [ ((12/T) x V)60)=RPM ]…short version > [ (V x 720)/T = RPM ]…T=twist, V=velocity

The author never stated what this cartridge was nor the powder but probably everyone recognizes it could be a .30/06 or .308 possibly and not that it matters really but it just puzzled me as it did some of you. Could be of several different calibers as we don't know the projectile weight or diameter...although…
None of that matters as we can see that these 'facts' do apply to a 'rifle' and it has been the speculation of us all as to whether or not a certain powder will do this or that. Given a more clear picture of 'internal ballistics' in this 'general description' I think we can all take a moment and do some 'Mulling' because more than one of us here are now 're-figuring' our assessments of the things that 'go bang' in the chamber.

The author mentioned that the 9 inch point in the barrel will vary from shot to shot and of course vary with a faster/slower 'rifle' powder but not change 'appreciabily'. The following calibers/powders reach their respective max./pressure at the following times. Only the graphs were published and did not state at what point the projectile was in the barrel. (Varying case volumes/bore dia.'s would account for much of this discrepancy in time.)
.222 Rem. Mag., IMR 4198…max.@ 32/100,000's sec.
.22-250……………..IMR 4320…………….58/100,000's sec.
.243 Win…………...IMR 4350…………...66/100,000's sec.
7mm Rem. Mag...IMR 4831…………...64/100,000's sec.
.300 Win. Mag…...IMR 4350…………...62/100,000's sec.
These all so close together represent to me that 'in general' that the boolit will be aprox. 9 inches down barrel when we speak of 'powder burn rates' and I can't see it varying by wild amounts until we start comparing pistol powders.

I have searched the net and never found any articles that give this same run-down for pistol powder…if any of you here should ever find one…or anything close please post here and advise us all as I find this to be one of the 'most informative' articles I have ever read.

Thanks for your patience…hope this clears some misguided reasoning out there…Also…I think this extremely hi-pressure round is a 'Proof Round'.

[Idaho45guy]

I used Lil' Gun because I was given a brand new can of it by my dad and there are an abundance of loads out there for it. I will say I was very surprised at how warm my pistol was after just 15 rounds over 20 minutes of shooting...

[PWS]

Not quite what you're asking but I've had to do the reverse and use magnum primers a time or two when they were the only thing available but much prefer to use standards, especially in "standard" level loads. Accuracy almost always was way worse and the incident of leading at the forcing cone went way up with the mag primers, especially with powders quicker than Unique.

Back on topic, I would guess that the standards might be a little dirtier and slower with Lil'Gun but that's only because the pressures won't be as high. Margin of safety should be fine though.

[Blackwater]

Primers are a very tricky subject, often because it depends on just which powder you're talking with reference to igniting, and what caliber, etc. Primers CAN make a difference, especially when considering Mag. vs. Std. primers. Even make of primer can make a difference in some loads, but it's not terribly common for it to make enough difference for most folks to notice. But occasionally it will. And the only way to know if it makes a difference is to go try them, and observe your chrono results, and how the primers look, and the size of the groups. Even for the same caliber, some guns will sometimes prefer one primer with a specific load, and another very nearly identical one might show a different preference.

Generally, there's little enough difference to worry about, except for max. loads, changing from std. primer to a mag. might drive the pressure beyond where you want it, and might shorten brass life a bit. Not a really pat answer, I know, but that's been my experience, and that of most folks I know and have shot and loaded with over a good many years now.

Congratulations! I just gave you an excuse to do some more shooting .... for "load testing" purposes of course! ;^)

[Coopaloop86]

I have out of necessity of market supply had to improvise on primers. Most recently I used SRP in place of SPP and the only difference I could tell was about 1 out of every 2-300 was a light strike. I did however start at minimum loads and worked my loads back up.

[Lloyd Smale]

use it to fertilize your garden and buy a can of 110 or 2400 for your gun. I'm with 44man in that I wouldn't put it in a gun of mine. I disagree with him though in using mag primers with 110, 296 and even aa9. CCI 350s have allways gave me the best accuracy and lowest deviation numbers.
I used Lil' Gun because I was given a brand new can of it by my dad and there are an abundance of loads out there for it. I will say I was very surprised at how warm my pistol was after just 15 rounds over 20 minutes of shooting...

[Idaho45guy]

Stopped by the LGS today to get some 110 and they were completely out.

[bouncer50]

I have out of necessity of market supply had to improvise on primers. Most recently I used SRP in place of SPP and the only difference I could tell was about 1 out of every 2-300 was a light strike. I did however start at minimum loads and worked my loads back up. Using rifle primer instead of SP work better in pistol with a outside hammer instead of striker fires. I buy what i can find any more.

[Lloyd Smale]

try some 2400 or aa9. Both are much better choises.

[clum553946]

W296 is the same powder as H110

[Pipefitter]

Any IMR 4227 to be had in your neighborhood? It leaves a bit of unburned powder in the barrel at lower loads but has been very kind to me in my Ruger Blackhawk.

[CraigOK]

I use cci lpp with 296/110 in my 45 colt. If I needed to uss magnums or win primers Id drop down the charge and work back up

[44man]

W296 is the same powder as H110
I am still unsure. Yes the same powder on the line but Hodgdon got a different burn rate then WW to canister. It was a little different then lot numbers.

[Lloyd Smale]

20 years ago I would have told you they were two different powders. Today its more of a lot to lot variation then any real difference.

[Sasquatch-1]

Is this a question of Mag vs std primer or of specific brands? If it is about brands, I had always liked CCI. I used Std and Mag interchangeably. The problem came when I purchased a Ruger GP100 and lighten the springs. Because of the hardness of the CCI cup I have a several light strikes out of 100 rounds. This doesn't happen with Federal, Remington or Winchester.

As for Mag vs Std as stated above I have used them interchangeably over the years and have not had any problems. I almost always use std. for my .44 loads and have loaded up to 27.5 grns of 296 with a 200 grn bullet and not had a problem with ignition. This round was fired from a Ruger Redhawk. Now a friend did say the fire ball went halfway down range.

[44man]

Is this a question of Mag vs std primer or of specific brands? If it is about brands, I had always liked CCI. I used Std and Mag interchangeably. The problem came when I purchased a Ruger GP100 and lighten the springs. Because of the hardness of the CCI cup I have a several light strikes out of 100 rounds. This doesn't happen with Federal, Remington or Winchester.

As for Mag vs Std as stated above I have used them interchangeably over the years and have not had any problems. I almost always use std. for my .44 loads and have loaded up to 27.5 grns of 296 with a 200 grn bullet and not had a problem with ignition. This round was fired from a Ruger Redhawk. Now a friend did say the fire ball went halfway down range.
Hello my friend, when are you coming to shoot again, I miss you. let's make some noise.

[Idaho45guy]

20 years ago I would have told you they were two different powders. Today its more of a lot to lot variation then any real difference.

Good to know... My LGS has been sold out of 110 since I first started looking for it nearly a month ago but they have plenty of W296... This is a picture I took of their powder shelf yesterday:

178422

[44man]

20 years ago I would have told you they were two different powders. Today its more of a lot to lot variation then any real difference.
Well they were not different, same exact powder but each batch is different, even today and some go to canister and some to ammo makers with test equipment. It was only what hodgdon specs were compared to WW.
I have no idea if both have the same burn rates today, I just buy 296. It was very, very close in any case. I feel H110 was 1/2 gr slower at the time. Yet 296 was more accurate in my guns except the RH that preferred H110. It was crazy, stupid and I have no answers.
But remember my IHMSA days were looking for 1/2" at 50 meters from Creedmore with opens.
Yet all my 296 loads would do it with a Fed 150 primer in the .44. I have not used a mag for close to 37 years.
OH, yes I believed it at one time until I started to shoot 40's every shoot. A 39 was ME in any case. I missed more first shots on a 50 meter chicken from a clean bore then anything. You are done with a chicken miss! IHMSA was won after cleaning 40 and getting the most shoot off targets at 200 meters. Usually 50 meter chickens and sometimes smaller.
The CCI 300 works too.