.44 Cal Cap & Ball Pistol (Pietta) - What cast bullet do I use ?

[DoctorBill]

Maybe this is the wrong sub-forum to ask this question in......(?)

I just bought a .44 caliber 1851 Navy Cap & Ball Pistol (Pietta - Italy)
at a Pawn Shop. I think it has never been fired ! $170.

https://s19.postimg.org/v2p0xubxf/44_cal_Cap_and_Ball_Pistol_9_30_16.jpg

This is crazy, but I don't know what Cast Bullet to use in this pistol ?!

I do not want to shoot round balls !

I have a .36 caliber Cap & Ball from Italy (PR ?) and shot two-Lube-Groove
Cast RN bullets from it. But a LONG, long, long time ago !

This .44 cal pistol has max groove dia of .446 and minimum of .428 using a digital
calipers on the front of the muzzle.

The cylinder's max loading diameter is .446 cal.

EMF sells simple Brass Molds for $55 for 44 cal C&B Pistols,
but does not show what the product out of the molds looks like !
https://s19.postimg.org/mmzggc92b/EMF_Brass_Bullet_Mold.jpg
I think the cast bullet from them is .450 cal. !
What shape - why don't they show a picture of the bullet ?!

Lee sells Black Powder Molds 'for revolvers' of 200 gr .450 cal (90382) which
puts out RN two lube ring bullets for $20 locally (Spokane, WA).
https://s19.postimg.org/utrg7wz4z/LEE_Cast_Bullet_for_C_B.jpg
Would those Bullets be OK for this pistol ?
I like LEE products.....

How many grains is a .450 round ball ?

Can anyone who shoots these old babies clue me in ? How much FFFg ?

My 35 year old .36 cal 1851 Navy C&B shot very true when I fired it 15 years ago.
I understand why Wild Bill Hickok liked 1851 Navy Pistols ! Fine weapons !

DoctorBill

[rintinglen]

IIRC, a 44 round ball is about 140 grains, the 44 conicals run about 180, and the Lee runs about 200 while Lyman made two boollits for this purpose, one about 170 and one hollowbase 155 that had the same profile as the bigger one. People have reported damage to the brass frame Armies when fired with hot loads under conicals.

[Earlwb]

I would use a Lee Round ball bullet mold, number 90440. This is a .451 size ball intended for cap and ball .44 caliber revolvers, etc. A .454 bullet might fit too. You don't really want to fire conical bullets out of a brass frame revolver that doesn't have the top strap on it like they do with the Remington replicas. it may cause the brass frame to be damaged. Originally they used round balls in all of the revolvers as that is where the "cap and ball" revolver moniker came from. 20 to 30 grains of black powder will do the trick. 30 grains is usually about a max load with a ball anyway. So you cannot overload it in that sense.

Trying to use one of the replica bullet molds is a exercise in futility. The handles get hot before you can cast anything. So you wind up wearing heavy gloves trying to compensate and now the gloves get in the way. Usually the balls don't come out looking very good either. These types of bullet molds are more for a decoration accessory in a cased set than intended for real usage.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

First, it isn't going to explode on you because it is brass. What peope report is that the brass framed ones loosen up with a lot of shooting. This is all the more likely the originals never were .44 calibre only .36.

It is true that the cylinder can't be dangerously loaded with black powder and any bullet in common use. But for long life it is advisable to hold the pressures down a little. The Lee conial bullet is a very good one, with its rear band reduced to align it in the chamber before ramming. But plenty of people have reported getting just as good performance with the lighter round ball. I'd say reducing lead by the use of a round ball is a better way of making this revolver work, than reducing powder.

[johnson1942]

this is what i do for my 3 open tops cartridge revolvers and it would work for you also. get a push through resizer for the bullet size you want to shoot in your gun. then push through larger round balls so they have a small bearing surface. i use 370 resized to .358 and as large as i can get 45/s and resize them to .451. i use a wad behind them as you would in a precussion. they are very accurate and dont lead and the back pressure shouldnt hurt your gun as you should be a little carefull with your brass frame.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Trying to use one of the replica bullet molds is a exercise in futility. The handles get hot before you can cast anything. So you wind up wearing heavy gloves trying to compensate and now the gloves get in the way. Usually the balls don't come out looking very good either. These types of bullet molds are more for a decoration accessory in a cased set than intended for real usage.

I'd agree about this, and they aren't even cheap like they used to be. The Lee mould, or ready-made purchased lead balls, are the way to go. If anyone inherits the brass mould with a revolver, I'd say fit wooden handles and try it. They can't all be bad.

[DoctorBill]

As always - varied opinions - who does one listen to ?

So apparently I should keep the mass of the projectile as near 140 grains as I
can and don't load hot powder loads. OK.

I have an idea.

I have a Mini-Milling Machine (Harbor Freight) and it is not difficult,
with the LEE Aluminum mold (450-200-R) to remove the sprue cutter
and mill off the bottom Lube ring, leaving a lighter bullet with just
one Lube Ring - then re-drill and tap the Sprue Cutter pivot screw hole.

If you examine the Bullets those replica Brass Bullet Molds drop out,
they have only one Lube Ring - not even a bottom on the ring.

Here is one I have (don't remember where from or when !) for 36 Caliber.
https://s19.postimg.org/5kagq1wir/Old_Brass_Pistol_Mold_36_cal.jpg

I scanned the image for the LEE 90382 Mold Product and took off
the Bottom Lube Ring with Photoshop. No idea what it would weigh, but
I could mill off that part of a cast 90382 and weigh it before actually
milling the mold....These LEE Molds are not so expensive as to prohibit
being modified - IF you have the tools, that is.

https://s19.postimg.org/f8nwt6rc3/LEE_Cast_Bullet_Comparison.jpg

or......cut it off to be like the Brass Bullet Mold product....

https://s19.postimg.org/isewg40df/LEE_Cast_Bullet_for_C_B_FULL_cut_off.jpg

I don't like to just give up. The real reason I want a Conical is I won't have
to slather grease into the cylinder holes to prevent "Flash Over".

How's that idea ?

DoctorBill

[Earlwb]

You can use a lubed wad over the powder charge before pressing in the bullet. Or a cardboard piece as a wad. With a tight fitting bullet and wad over the powder charge the flash over should not be a problem. A hole punch can make jillions of the wads too. That isn't a bad idea about shaving a little off the mold to reduce the number of lube grooves and lighten the conical bullets up some. About the only thing that may be affected is accuracy. But one won't know for sure unless they do it.

[DoctorBill]

"That isn't a bad idea about shaving a little off the mold to reduce
the number of lube grooves and lighten the conical bullets up some. About the only
thing that may be affected is accuracy."

I had a machinist friend try that for me for the 6.5mm Special Issue LEE "Cruise Missile" bullet mold for the Swiss Rifle. It worked just fine. Quick and easy to do with a Milling Machine.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?103567-Milling-Down-The-LEE-6-5mm-Cruise-Missile-Mold-Best-Sized-Bullet

As to accuracy - if they made those Brass Molds with that shape of bullet, they didn't
sell those for no reason - I would suppose. Besides, a squished round ball in the shape
of an egg shouldn't be all that good either ! One wonders just how important all this is
to accuracy.

The bullet Mass (grains) and Powder Charge seems to be the issue with Conical bullets.

Most interesting about a "Wad" or "Card Disk" preventing Flash Over !

Now THAT I can do !

I made a Disk Punch for my 45-70 and .577-450 Martini-Henry BP Cartridges.
http://s19.postimage.org/c5vi7g277/Like_Down_Town.jpg
Twern,t very easy - took a while.

Just checked - my 45-70 disks should work fine ! Made a Butt-Load of them !

https://s19.postimg.org/t17dlxof7/45_cal_Card_Disks.jpg

I'd still like to modify that LEE mold....

DoctorBill

BTW - Didn't the Walker 44 shoot a Rifle Sized BP Load. Did they fire Conical
Bullets out of THAT ! How did that pistol stand up to massive firepower ?
"The Colt Walker holds a powder charge of 60 grains (3.9 g) in each chamber, more than twice what a typical black powder revolver holds. It weighs 4 1⁄2 pounds (2 kg) unloaded, has a 9-inch (230 mm) barrel, and fires a .44 caliber (0.454 in (11.5 mm) diameter) conical and round ball." Wikipedia
Colt recommended 50 gr only.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It isn't an urgent concern to keep the load down with brass frames, unless you will shoot a lot, and it isn't an urgent concern to limit lead rather than powder. If your concern is only to avoid using a lube, you could end up going to a lot of trouble to save trouble.

A round ball is just the same sphere even if it rolls over a bit, but a conical bullet isn't. It does seem a pity to eliminate the reduced band which guides the Lee conical into the chamber, as your proposed modification would do. I think that is also what is intended in the brass mould, which I think is an original Colt design. It was certainly very like some used in British cap and ball revolvers. That is a guiding band, not a lube groove. I don't know where Lee put the steel guide pins in those moulds nowadays, but if that permits, there are other ways you could lighten one.

You could make a drill guiding bush to fit the ribs inside the mould, and insert a hollow-point pin.

You could mill a slot across the face of the blocks, to insert a strip of metal and flatten off the nose. This revolver doesn't need the lowest-drag bullet in the world.

You could make a holding device for the bullets, nose-down, in your milling machine, and drill a hollow base. You need this to be really central, though. If it is just to be held in a machine-vice on the table, make it round, of the same diameter as some kind of collet or mandrel which can be held in the spindle taper. Then you just move the table till that is the overall diameter, in all directions, of the two objects where they meet.

I love my mini-mill dearly, and it has done many jobs I couldn't with no mill at all. But my bench drill has a round table, held in a 47mm. round socket in line with the spindle. I made my own cylindrical collet, drilled it and reamed it to a Morse taper on the drill itself, and can now use it for numerous jobs like this.

The idea of prior sizing down of round balls could be fine for cartridge loading. But two cylindrical belts on a bullet, at different angles, is one too many. You can line them up a lot better on a loading press and seater die than you could in that awkward little triangular space in a revolver frame. A exception might be if you make up a six-chambered bench loading block, to ram bullets into all the chambers at once. Or a single-tube one, pivoted on a spindle where the revolver axis pin will go, to take a line of six bullets ad expel one into each chamber in turn. That way they would be loaded in line with the belt the block made.

[DoctorBill]

Ballistics in Scotland - nice ideas. I might try some or all.

I had made a comment about the cylinder bullet chambers being sharp edged.

I take that back ! (if you read this before I edited it.)

Bad eyesight - I looked with an eye loup - IT IS CHAMFERED !

I was asking if chamfering the edge was OK....apparently it is !

i.e - to help loading the bullet.....

DoctorBill

[dlbarr]

I do not want to shoot round balls !


DoctorBill

Doc, go ahead...shoot round balls.

[DoctorBill]

Cute !

I don't have any 451 round balls - so, I have to go to our local sporting goods
store.

I intend to go up to the counter and ask in a loud voice, "Do you have lead Balls ?"

Expecting a reaction.

I'll get some and also the LEE mold 90382.

DoctorBill

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The chamfer should be very slight. Standard practice, even with the forward bands of the Lee conical, is for the chamber to shave off a thin ring of lead as it is rammed home. Just like a rifle muzzle, the only reason to have a chamfer is so that accidental knocks won't burr the chamber edges over.

Some people claim chainfires occur cap-to-cap rather than front end to front end, but it can be either. A tight fit helps, but some lube is advisable, both to prevent that, and for what a lube sounds like. A greasegun can be adapted to reduce a messy job, and I dare say some purpose-built version is on the market.

Your card wads could be of some help with a flat-based bullet, but they go dome-shaped with a gap round the edges behind a ball. They would be better if they are combined with a wax disc. The surface of water is always horizontal, so beeswax melted and floating will harden at an even thickness.

[bedbugbilly]

Personally, I don't like conicals out of C & B but that's me - a lot of folks like 'em.

For the $20 price of a Lee conical mold form Titan for the 44 C & B, why go to all the trouble to modify a mold, etc. As far as for the brass molds styled after the originals - the ones that cast a round ball and a conical - if that is what you want, then go for it. I have one that I bought to cast for my .36s - I've owned and shot a lot of different "Navy" caliber C & Bs over the last 50 years. While I like to experiment and use old and vintage tools - I was completely disappointed with my experience with one of the Euroarm .36 brass molds. To put it mildly, I found it to be a giant PIA to use. I suppose you could modify one and put mold handles on it but again, for a $20 Lee mold you can cast oodles of either RB or Conicals. I did step up my .36 RB production by getting one of the old Lyman 4 cavity molds - but again it is RB and you want Conical.

With that brass frame though . . don't be loading heavy. Over time the frame will stretch - the brass recoil shield will get hammered and if a lot of heavy loads are used, you'll one day discover a loose cylinder pin.

[Tar Heel]

Round balls are easier to load. The twist rate of the gun is optimized for round balls. Conical bullets are best loaded with the cylinder removed from the revolver since the loading arch is typically too short to accommodate the conicals. Most conicals DO NOT have a recessed base contrary to what claims are made by the manufactures. Conical bullets are hard to load straight or in-line with the chamber.

Conical bullets are effective but then, so are round balls. If it is any help, I have attached an article done by some bozo a while ago regarding conical bullets in a ROA.

177944

[Buckshot]

.............RB's in a BP revolver are the way to go. Simple and easy to accomplish. "Greasing your balls" is messy for YOU and also gets all over the revolver. The ONLY benefit to a conical is due to it's weight. Being heavier it packs a but more energy, but in most all accounts is NOT as accurate as a RB. I HAVE loaded conicals in a Ruger Old Army and they worked well, but NOT as well as RB's. I bought it brand new after getting out of the Navy in 1973, at a hardware store for $125.00. At first I used to slather grease over the RB's once loaded in the chambers, but learned my lesson. Lesson 1) Not required for a correctly fitting RB. Lesson 2) Is a real mess in ALL respects.

The Ruger OA was stolen back in the early 80's in a home break in. My next BP revolver was an Italian repro of a 3rd Model Colt Dragoon. A bad purchase decision. It was inexpensive, and even though I wasn't much of a 'Pistol Guy', it didn't take me long to realize it never was going to shoot, due to totally unrealistic barrel and cylinder dimensions. It looked very nice, but it's best useage would have been to let the bad guy get close enough to use it like a club.

A couple years back I bought a Uberti replica Colt 1860 44 cal revolver. This, IMHO is the best way to go with a cap 'n' ball revolver. Drop your desired charge in each chamber, seat a lubed felt wad, seat the correct sized pure lead RB (of a size so it shaves a small lead ring off), cap and shoot. Simple, neat, and accurate. This pistol will shoot alongside most any decent revolver out there at 15 yards. Your limitation is the very crude (for precision target shooting) sights. Like any other firearm, it's accuracy is pretty much determined at manufacture. If it's well done you can wring some impressive results, after a bit of test work.

If it's a *** in brand new condition, then my only wish is may the Lord help ya.

Since you have tools, you can easily make up your own wad punch for punching out felt wads. Factory made wads are very nice, but seem to me to be unreasonably expensive for what they are. I use 1/8" thick hard felt wad cut to provide a snug fit in the chambers. They're lubed in a double boiler and allowed to hot soak for at least 30 minutes. I use a fairly stiff 50/50 mix of Ox Yoke wonder lube & Beeswax. I pour them out over a 14"x14" piece of 1/4" mesh hardware cloth (the liquid lube going into a metal bread pan for next use. I then use a stiff 12" stainless ruler worked back and forth to spread them out so they don't clump so much. They seem to like to gang up like rolls of Life Savers :-) You can easily do a couple years worth of lube wads in an hour or so.

.............Buckshot

[DoctorBill]

I guess I have been convinced to go with the round balls of lead.

I'm wondering which would be better, a couple hundred .451's for $20
or a LEE Mold for $20. Would take me a LONG time to shoot 200 rounds....
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/000036060/point451-diameter-138-grain-lead-round-balls-100-count

The Felt wad soaked with wax sounds good.

I bought 6 lbs of Bee's Wax online and make mixtures for Lube Cookies,
so pharting around with wax - been there - done that.

On the subject of the dreaded Flashovers, Chainfires, whatever they are called,
has anyone participating in this thread EVER seen one happen ?

I am having trouble imagining what it is like !

Have people lost fingers or their hands when this happens ?

Be interesting to set one up (loose bullets, no grease or wax) with one
of those krapper C&B's you all seem to have run into and set it up
in a vice and a long cord to fire it - with several cameras running to
catch the action. Bet you all would pay a $1 to see THAT !

DoctorBill

PS - Hey Buckshot ! Remember me !? I use the things you sent me
a long time ago when I first bought the ENCO Lathe ! Haven't had
a major screw up yet. Still hold it in awe...and respect for what it can
do if one isn't careful. Once again, THANK YOU !

[Tracy]

I've had a flashover a couple times. Neither I nor the gun suffered any damage. Quite uneventful, in fact.

[DoctorBill]

Really !

Please describe what happened.

If the BP forces the bullet out of the cylinder with nowhere to go, I
assumed there would be Hell to pay !

Know of any Videos or pictures of it happening ?

Secondary subject - has anyone ever paper patched a conical in
a Cap & Ball ? I would suppose it could be done - maybe
wrap the paper around front and back.

DoctorBill

[Bent Ramrod]

A good conical for a cap&ball revolver will have the base band slightly rebated so it can start straight into the chamber. Many do not have this rebate, or do not have it sized right, and the result is an off-center boolit rammed into the chamber. Naturally, accuracy is nonexistent with this setup. Milling the end off any conical mould will ensure that this rebate, if it was ever there, will be gone.

I had a good copy of the Lyman 450229 hollow base, which had the slight rebate in the base. When I shot this in my C&B pistols at tin cans and stuff, I would swear that it shot harder and more accurately than round balls. One sad day I took the pistol to the range to shoot over a chronograph at paper targets from a rest, checking boolits against balls. So much for another theory, in both respects. The grease grooves can be filled with lube and the greased cylinder face avoided, though.

I've had three, maybe four chain-fires, most "onesies" and one a "twosie." All were caused by forgetting the grease on the chambers, and all were with round ball loads. The balls just fly forward, leaving a lead scuff, maybe, on the side of the barrel, which wipes off. I never had a "threesie," like Elmer Keith reported, where the bottom chamber also goes off, driving the ball into the rammer. That would really be a mess.

I shot my Armi San Marco Walker with round balls and conicals with the 60-gr load. So far, I've had to shorten the cylinder arbor, rethread it when it shot loose in the frame, and JB weld it when it shot loose in the frame again. It's in the queue to try again. It hasn't blown up, like many originals were supposed to have done. That 60-gr load is plenty rigorous, but why bother with a Walker if you're going to shoot wimp loads?

Oh, I also had to take a Dremel tool to the little window under the barrel, so the Lyman boolit would fit under the rammer. You might check to make sure your revolver will clear the conicals from your mould before you commit to them.

[Tar Heel]

I'm wondering which would be better, a couple hundred .451's for $20
or a LEE Mold for $20. Would take me a LONG time to shoot 200 rounds....

Bullets sized .454 are your best bet. The ones sized at .451 are too small for sloppy chambers and are (arguably) contributors to the dreaded chain-fire. Most manufactures specify .454 in the manuals supplied with their revolvers. Both Pietta and Uberti specify .454 balls. Ruger specified .457 for their ROA years ago but mine spec'd out with chambers at .451 and .452 making the .457 balls very hard to load. I have since used .454 in it as well.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Really !

Please describe what happened.

If the BP forces the bullet out of the cylinder with nowhere to go, I
assumed there would be Hell to pay !

Know of any Videos or pictures of it happening ?

Secondary subject - has anyone ever paper patched a conical in
a Cap & Ball ? I would suppose it could be done - maybe
wrap the paper around front and back.

DoctorBill

It seemed pretty eventful to me, in an original Navy with an oversized chamber. Somebody in the Old West could die of having one shot left available than he expected. I don't say there are no cap and ball revolvers it could damage or jam up, and it could be different if someone loaded one purely by the light of nature, with loose bullets, and had it go full-auto down to the badly obstructed chamber at the bottom. But it was a phenomenon the designers knew about, and in the major revolvers it is usually alarming but harmless. The pressure as the bullet leaves the chamber is still quite low. Indeed it is the ignited but unconsumed powder that makes it flash so much.

Such are the quirks of design history that this is probably the reason why modern revolvers, a century and a half after the need passed, don't have any kind of shield to keep debris out of the chambers.

[Good Cheer]

DoctorBill,
The old original conical shaped boolits were weapons of war invented to provide greater penetration rather than accuracy. They were made for poking holes in people wearing warm coats. That's the reason for the big openings beneath the ram.

To get accuracy with long boolits (round balls are short boolits :razz:) in percussion revolvers the base needs to be plumb perpendicular. That's harder to do than most imagine. Overall the loading set up just generally isn't conducive to obtaining that alignment load after load. So, round ball is generally found to give the best accuracy. That round smooth hind end exiting the muzzle minimizes the gas jetting more to one side than the other. And, at loading the round ball alignment is a natural.

With long boolits the goal becomes getting good fit while also minimizing the amount of lead you have to shear off or swage into the chamber mouth. What I've worked with is using .45 molds partially sized, leaving the very front ring large. That's pretty easy to accomplish for reproduction Dragoons and Walkers. Like with these RCBS 45-225's sized for a Walker...

http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/RCBS45-225CAV_zpsd89b637a.jpg (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/SNARGLEFLERK/media/RCBS45-225CAV_zpsd89b637a.jpg.html)

Less easy for .44's like Pietta typically makes due to the smaller chamber diameters. Another avenue is to make a round ball mold into a longer bullet mold. That way you have the same shear area but can have more weight as well as alignment custom fit to your chambers' diameter.

http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/blocks%20and%20plug%202_zpseby0vyi9.jpg (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/SNARGLEFLERK/media/blocks%20and%20plug%202_zpseby0vyi9.jpg.html)

[Good Cheer]

And I hasten to add, the Pietta smaller chambers diameter will tend to function as a cartridge revolver with undersized chamber throats. That's another reason why the round ball is less injurious to accuracy.

[DoctorBill]

Great ! I am so glad you told me about the .454 RB before I went off and
bought the wrong size !

Thank you so much !

I found this on the Pietta web site:

https://s19.postimg.org/n8ovvtl2b/Cap_and_Ball_Pistol_Loading_Data_Ready.jpg

12 - 15 grains (by volume no doubt.....) of FFFg.
Powder measures they sell in Sporting Goods stores.
I have some of them. I do everything by weight for cartridges.

Seems the LEE RB Mold #90442 is the correct mold (mould) for this C&B.

I wonder what else I need to know before I load this creature up and fire it....

DoctorBill

PS - Here are my cylinder's max diameter measurements.
https://s19.postimg.org/gw9qlzi03/Measuring_the_Cylinder_B.jpg

The barrel's widest measurement just forward of the Forcing Cone is .447 inch.

MAYBE the .451 Ball would "fit my pistol" (John Wayne) better.....? ? ?

Better stick to what Pietta recommends.

[dadeo316]

You can use a lubed wad over the powder charge before pressing in the bullet. Or a cardboard piece as a wad. With a tight fitting bullet and wad over the powder charge the flash over should not be a problem. A hole punch can make jillions of the wads too. That isn't a bad idea about shaving a little off the mold to reduce the number of lube grooves and lighten the conical bullets up some. About the only thing that may be affected is accuracy. But one won't know for sure unless they do it.
I 2nd the lubed wad over 30grs of fff powder. Ive never had a problem with other cylinders igniting. .451 round ball still shaves a little off while pushing into the cylinder.

Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk

[Maven]

Yes to the lubed felt wad over the powder charge, but NO to 30rgr FFFg in a brass framed revolver (for reasons mentioned earlier in this thread).

[dadeo316]

Yes to the lubed felt wad over the powder charge, but NO to 30r. FFFg in a brass framed revolver (for reasons mentioned earlier in this thread).
I guess ive been loading double charges for 15 years. Mines the pietta 1858 new army.

Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk

[joatmon]

The 1858 has the top strap tho.
Aaron

[DoctorBill]

"Your card wads could be of some help with a flat-based bullet, but they go dome-shaped with a gap round the edges behind a ball. They would be better if they are combined with a wax disc" .......Ballistics in Scotland

I have been trying to cut felt disks with my home made punch. I have a 0.45 inch and a 0.60 inch (for a Snider) punch.

Now here is the question - If a 0.45 inch disk "Cups" behind the ball, then one would need a LARGER diameter to stay wide enough to seal up the chamber.

HOW MUCH BIGGER of a disk do I need !

The 0.60 is too big - leaves about a millimeter outside the chamber and would be a bugger to have to shave off along with the excess lead of the .454 ball.

So.....I don't want to have to make some odd-ball (no pun intended) sized punch - that is several DAYS of work !

Thus, I am left with the wax disk idea which I am used to since I load BP Cartridges of 45-70 and 577-450 with wax "Lube Cookies".

Making wax disks is EASY AS PIE if you pour the lube wax over a tray with boiling water in it, let it cool overnight, and take the VERY FLAT and THIN (as you make it) wax plate off the top of the water. You get VERY uniform, thin plates of wax lube material that you can cut out with Brass Cartridges like cutting donuts or cookies from dough with a cookie cutter. I mentioned that in my threads about loading BP Martini-Henry cartridges in the British Militaria Forum. Also in threads I have posted about 45-70 BP Cartridges.

https://s19.postimg.org/x1ae3t6g3/Making_Wax_Flats_for_Disks.jpg

Anyway....I think I'll go the wax disk under or over a paper disk route.

No wonder these Cap & Ball pistols died out ! What a pain !
Complicated and inconvenient in Battle....

No wonder Josey Wales carried four or five in his belt and shoulder holsters.
He (Preacher) carried extra cylinders in "Pale Rider". $90 each from Pietta.

DoctorBill

[Bent Ramrod]

Good Cheer--

I like that round ball mould adaptation of yours, especially the adjustable base attachment. That would preserve the correct alignment of the boolit in the cylinder no matter how short it was.

I was always taught that the proper sized ball was that which shaved a ring of lead as it was rammed into the chamber. A 0.451" ball has always done this for me. Adding diameter would certainly thicken the ring of lead and increase the contact area in the chamber. But I would think levering it in would also put more strain on the wedge holding the barrel to the arbor and wear it out quicker, or stretch the window in the barrel lug, to the same effect.

I have never had a Ruger Old Army, just a bunch of various Italian clones.

Dr. Bill, you might get a package of .44-.45 Wonder Wads and see how they work. Then you can measure their diameters and proceed accordingly with your own wads.

[DoctorBill]

I tend to agree with you, Bent Ramrod, but.....Pietta recommends the .454
Round Ball ! See post #26 in this thread.

If I use pure lead (not hard to find in recycling yards), I suppose it is soft enough.

There has been 150+ years for all this stuff to be worked out by an endless
number of shooters. One could go buy a cylinder reloading setup for $20,

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/traditions-loading-stand-for-black-powder-revolver-cylinders-a1309-040589130903.do?from=Search&cx=0

but that would be silly unless one also bought several more cylinders at $50 a pop.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Pietta-Navy-Caliber-Revolver-Spare-Cylinder/735135.uts

"Wonder Wads" are disgustingly expensive ! ~16¢ EACH ! Bah Humbug !

QUESTION for all - Is it dangerous to buy extra cylinders ?
How do you know they'll fit ?
Even if I buy Pietta Cylinders - are there different 1851 model fits ?
Like buying Car Parts - year, make, model, month of manuf (Fords)....

DoctorBill

[Wayne Smith]

Can't answer your last question - haven't bought extra cylinders. Years ago, as a teenager, (I'm 63 now) I had one like yours but it had a casting flaw in the brass. I knew nothing about them except that you needed pure lead balls, needed grease over the balls, and use BP. I did all that. The grease (Crisco) melted away after the first two shots. Made a mess too.

I had a chain fire in that once. Made more noise than a normal firing, kick was more too, and the muzzle pushed sideways when it normally kicked up. Took a good look, chamber next to the firing chamber was empty and there was a lead scar on the wedge. I fired the rest of the cylinder and learned how to cut wads. Just seemed to make sense to me. Although then I loaded them over the balls.

[DoctorBill]

Now I have Balls !

https://s19.postimg.org/qv4cjbn4z/454_Lead_Balls_Hornady_B.jpg

Plus, a mold is on the way so I can make more Balls.....

Boy, I have a lot of Balls !

I needed the Balls to go out and shoot this hand cannon.....soon !

Just hope I can hit something with it.

My .36 cal 1851 Navy (CVA?) is so accurate - so this Pietta should be too !

Now to cut some Wax Disks.
I'm wondering - put the disks under the Balls or on top of them !?

DoctorBill

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I was always taught that the proper sized ball was that which shaved a ring of lead as it was rammed into the chamber. A 0.451" ball has always done this for me. Adding diameter would certainly thicken the ring of lead and increase the contact area in the chamber. But I would think levering it in would also put more strain on the wedge holding the barrel to the arbor and wear it out quicker, or stretch the window in the barrel lug, to the same effect.



Unless the chambers are undersize, which is unlikely, .454 gives the strain on those parts which Pietta intended. It is very much less than the gas pressure will exert on those same parts. So I don't think this is anything to worry about. These revolvers manage to spin the bullet with a very short bearing surface, but I think .454 balls will give a usefully longer one than .452.

[DoctorBill]

The Wax Flats were made as described in post #31.

The cutter is made from a cut-off Martini-Henry Cartridge and a wood dowel.
Works like a syringe - cut the disk - push it out with the dowel.
Masking Tape around the Dowel spaces the dowel in the Brass Cartridge.

https://s19.postimg.org/9vve42bxf/Cutting_Wax_Disks.jpg

Under the Ball or on top of the Ball ? .....or both !?

DoctorBill

[Ballistics in Scotland]

"Your card wads could be of some help with a flat-based bullet, but they go dome-shaped with a gap round the edges behind a ball. They would be better if they are combined with a wax disc" .......Ballistics in Scotland

I have been trying to cut felt disks with my home made punch. I have a 0.45 inch and a 0.60 inch (for a Snider) punch.

Now here is the question - If a 0.45 inch disk "Cups" behind the ball, then one would need a LARGER diameter to stay wide enough to seal up the chamber.

HOW MUCH BIGGER of a disk do I need !

The 0.60 is too big - leaves about a millimeter outside the chamber and would be a bugger to have to shave off along with the excess lead of the .454 ball.

So.....I don't want to have to make some odd-ball (no pun intended) sized punch - that is several DAYS of work !

Thus, I am left with the wax disk idea which I am used to since I load BP Cartridges of 45-70 and 577-450 with wax "Lube Cookies".

Making wax disks is EASY AS PIE if you pour the lube wax over a tray with boiling water in it, let it cool overnight, and take the VERY FLAT and THIN (as you make it) wax plate off the top of the water. You get VERY uniform, thin plates of wax lube material that you can cut out with Brass Cartridges like cutting donuts or cookies from dough with a cookie cutter. I mentioned that in my threads about loading BP Martini-Henry cartridges in the British Militaria Forum. Also in threads I have posted about 45-70 BP Cartridges.

Anyway....I think I'll go the wax disk under or over a paper disk route.

No wonder these Cap & Ball pistols died out ! What a pain !
Complicated and inconvenient in Battle....

No wonder Josey Wales carried four or five in his belt and shoulder holsters.
He (Preacher) carried extra cylinders in "Pale Rider". $90 each from Pietta.

DoctorBill

What I meant is that I think the card wad and wax disc are only worthwhile with the flat-based bullet. If a larger one is used, it will only be shorn down to chamber diameter or won't lie flat. With round ball I think you are best with nothing behind it and only a little softer lube in front.

[joatmon]

In front or behind both work, I use in front myself. I think the red lube looks neat.
Aaron

[DoctorBill]

The Lube Cookie Flats are a large percentage the red wax that comes around
Babybel Cheese !
https://s19.postimg.org/a9wq3nw0z/Red_Cheese_Wax.jpg
The rest is my Lube Cookie Formula.

The Red Cheese Wax is soft, sticky and of course Red.....

Seems to work quite well.

https://s19.postimg.org/x1ae3t6g3/Making_Wax_Flats_for_Disks.jpg

I was sitting in front of the idiot box one day eating the Babybel cheeses,
drinking Beer and munching crackers (great diet, huh ?) and tossing the
Red Wax shells into the trash can. Wait a minute....this red wax stuff has
all the properties I had been trying to formulate as Lube Cookie Wax !

So I started saving the Red Wax Covers and mixing them with Paraffin
for canning. Worked very nicely (along with a few secret ingredaments like
STP and Corn Oil and Toilet Bowl Wax Rings).

Silly, huh ? Works !

A Lube Cookie underneath the Lead Ball between the Ball and the Black
Powder would work as Lube Cookies work with Black Powder cartridges.

Vaporize and condense in the pistol barrel keeping the Black Powder
residue soft so the next bullet can sweep it out as it leaves.

Hmmm.....

DoctorBill

[Earlwb]

Now the OP's pistol seems to have undersized chambers and a undersized forcing cone. So I think that .451 balls or maybe conicals would be the way to go. I think trying to force the .454 size balls or conicals into a .445 through .447 size chamber would put undue stress on the frame and loading lever. Maybe if one pulled the cylinder out and reloaded it separately on a cylinder reloading press it would work. But those bullets are going to go in really hard. The .451size bullets may still go in hard too.

[DoctorBill]

"...the OP's pistol..." Earlwb

What !?

Why would .454 be recommended by the Pistol manufacturer then ?

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

A question came up.

If I am going to use Wax Disks, then I will, no doubt, need to pre-cut a bunch of the
to take to the shooting range. No worries.....

Except, how do I keep them from all sticking together ? They tend to be sticky.

I watch a lot of cooking shows and "How It's Made" on satellite TV.
Ha Ha ! "Diners, Drivin's and Dives" shows how to BBQ and make Chili and
cook Meat and great food !

Anyway - I remember that when they make rubber tires on "How It's Made",
they have to put a powder on the rubber slabs to keep them from adhering to
one another when stored. I think it was STARCH !

I wonder if I cut a bunch of Wax Disks, roll them in Starch, if they'd keep apart ?
Can't see how a bit of Starch would hurt the pistol. Probably vaporize when it
is fired....

Make a bunch - keep them in a flat round tin so that I can reload at the
range. Cold days - no problem. Hot summer days - maybe a problem.

So I just now tried it.

https://s19.postimg.org/jlndecxyb/Starching_Wax_Disks.jpg

https://s19.postimg.org/c6y1lzc2r/Starched_Wax_Disks_in_Container.jpg

I hope this works !

DoctorBill

PS - don't wear dark clothing when messing with Starch ! It gets all over everything !

[RogerDat]

I can't provide you with a link to the felt supplier, recipe and process but one reason for soaking the felt in the wax mixed 50/50 with Crisco is they can be pulled apart when they stick together. Using lower percentage of wax during cold weather, lower percentage of Crisco for warmer weather. I am far from expert, I would not even consider myself experienced but was told the store bought lubed felt disks went under the ball by folks that I figure are either experienced or expert.

Can purchase the felt as wads either lubed or not lubed so you can soak them in your own wax/grease lube for much less than 16 cents each, more like 6 - 7 cents each from track of the wolf. https://www.trackofthewolf.com/list/item.aspx/174/1

You can also buy enough bulk felt from someplace online for a few bucks that will be a nearly lifetime supply. Maybe someone recalls the seller, they have a hard felt that is good for C&B wads.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Cut three or four small notches in the cutting edge cartridge case or punch you use to cut the discs. Then you can carry a sheet to the range and detach them as required, like postage stamps. Or you could even put completely detached ones in the holes they came from. Slight compression with a fingertip should make them stick.

There is indeed no reason not to use .454 balls in a .446 or .447 chamber, unless it is the use of a harder alloy than this revolver requires.

Cheese wax is good, and you get a higher ratio of outside to inside with those little ones than you do with the big Gouda. It is formulated to not become too soft at room temperature, and yet not crack in the fridge. You can also buy from www.mcmaster.com (http://www.mcmaster.com) sheets of a high temperature but soft wax used by those who make wax models for casting things in plastic resin, with or without one side self-adhesive.

[Maven]

I like the cheese wax + punch! Btw. if you want a good source for felt of various kinds try these folks: http://www.durofelt.com

[DoctorBill]

I'll bet a 45-70 or 45-90 or a 45-110 cartridge could also be turned into
a nice Wax Disk Cutter.

Saw off the rim end, file it flat, de-burr it and make a wood dowel plunger.

Sharpen the front edge also.

Some rifle cartridge would work for a .36 cal wax punch, maybe.
Just don't offhand know which size cartridge.....

A little creative thought - after a few beers - and you could make
a nice disk cutter for yourself.

DoctorBill.

[Thumbcocker]

My Uberti 58 Remington and Ruger old Army both love .457 lead balls cast from lead pipe. I make grease cookies from a mixture of 1 part tallow, 1 part bees wax, and 1/2 part paraffin. The cookies are cut with a .44 caliber punch about 3/16' thick but squish out to chamber size with the ball seated on top of them. I think the oversize ball gives the rifling a better bite on the projectile.

[berksglh]

Ive tried home cast balls and the cast lee conicals in my 1858. I dont like the idea of round balls, a conical in my mind is more accurate. But no matter what I tried (even P.C. and sized conicals) the balls are dead on, and conicals group bad.

That being said, Ive given up on conicals, i have used both Oxe yoke and home made lube pads, no other greese anywhere, never had a chainfire.

I cast 451 balls from COWW with a $18 dollar lee mold and have had no issues in several hundred rnds in my Old army 1858.



Sent from my RS988 using Tapatalk

[Driver man]

I shoot a 1858 Remington using 457 balls. I load 21grains of fff then top up with semolina to about 5mm of the cylinder face and then shave a ball in compressing every thing slightly. I top that off with Vaseline . Accuracy is very good and with the semolina scrubbing the bore each shot the barrel remains unfouled. I often shoot 60 balls in a days shoot and only have to concern myself keeping the cylinder /pin free of rubbish. The pistol shoots groups into 2.5inchs at 25m in dueling mode .

[DoctorBill]

All right, guys !

Let's talk grains of FFFg Black Powder !

Pietta (post #26) says 12 to 15 grains of FFFg Black Powder.

What do you guys use to measure that ?

Do you use the commercial Black Powder Horn measuring dodads

or

do you weigh out the BP on a scale ? Grains is a weight measurement.

I know this is a BIG CONTROVERSY and have had arguments on this
very Forum about what to use and what is meant.

Now I COULD weigh out 12 to 15 grains on my LEE Balance and find
an empty shell or tube to hold whatever VOLUME that weight takes up
to use at the range.

I have a Powder Horn and a CVA Powder Flask - both with Valves and "Tips"
from my 'olde days' of 40 years ago shooting Muzzle Loaders.
I have an old 'adjustable' Black Powder measuring tube - volume.

https://s19.postimg.org/ffgrnmjfn/BP_Containers.jpg

So....what is YOUR 15 grains - by volume or by weight ?

How do you handle it.....I have forgotten. I remember by volume.

Supposedly, it doesn't matter very much since excess BP burns out
in front of the "gun".

"This is my rifle, this is my gun....
one is for shooting, one is for fun !
To your left, to your left, to your left, right, left !"

https://s19.postimg.org/3rmpt2uar/Civil_War.jpg

Anybody shoot FFg in a Cap & Ball ?

Ya, ya.....go measure by volume and see what the weight is....
I'm going to do that soon.

DoctorBill

[Battis]

Measure powder by volume. I use FFG in my originals (rifles and revolvers) and FFFG in repros and Ruger Old Army.

Lube Stick...mix up a batch of lube (I use beeswax and paraffin), pour it into the barrel (plug the muzzle end), let it cool for a bit, then push out the Lube Stick. Cut lube pills from the stick as needed that are a perfect fit for that gun.
I also use the vegetable spray PAM as a lube over the loaded balls, down the barrels of muzzleloaders, and on the cylinder pin of the Remington.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/S4020206_zpsa0281c39.jpg


go easy on the brass
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m217/pohill/S4020010_zps1607d170.jpg

[Bent Ramrod]

With all due respect--isn't this getting out of hand?

When I bought my Navy Arms 1860 Army replica in 1972 or so, admittedly, the research material was not so extensive as it is now, and, of course, there was no Internet. There was the chapter in Elmer Keith's Sixguns and an occasional magazine article (getting more "occasional" all the time, as the Civil War craze had crested and was beginning to diminish).

I bought the gun at Arizona Al's, and he recommended .451" lead balls and FFFg powder, which he sold me, along with a can of Navy Arms #11 percussion caps. I stopped off home just long enough to get a container of axle grease and a popsicle stick to daub it into the chambers. I filled a couple shopping bags with household throwaways capable of holding water and filled two jugs with water. My powder flask was a plastic bottle formerly used to squeeze out mustard, and my chargers were a .38 Special case (for normal use) and a .357 Magnum case (in case a wounded, water-dripping pop can decided to charge). I threw all this into the car and repaired to the desert.

I shot the gun until the cylinder crudded up and wouldn't turn. Disassembly, a wipe with water, and reassembly got it going again. As I recall, I'd get 60 shots out of a clean, greased cylinder arbor before needing the wiping, and got maybe another 18 before diminishing returns set in again. Then I'd pick up the trash, take the gun home, disassemble it, wash the pieces in dish detergent and hot water, dry it with acetone, oil it, grease the cylinder arbor, and then go take a shower myself. I repeated this every Saturday for the next couple years, interrupted only when Al didn't have time to cast any more round balls (I bought my first mould and Lee lead furnace to allay this shortage; Hornady and Speer's offerings were years in the future).

This modern technological age and its complexity has induced in us a condition that has been called "paralysis by analysis." Doctor Bill, the artifact you are working with is from the era where the form naturally followed function. The operation of your revolver is as intuitive as that of a zipper or a door knob. You have Pietta's recommendations for round ball sizes and powder charges. Go shooting!

[DoctorBill]

I dug out some of my 40 year old Black Powder "Stuff" in several
old range boxes.

Then I measured out the smallest CVA Powder Flask tip's worth of FFFg
(also 40 years old GOEX) and weighed it.... Yikes ! 15.5 grains !

https://s19.postimg.org/e490f5ntv/5_gr_vol_is_15_gr_weight.jpg

Methinks I'll just use that and go shoot the .454 Balls with a wax disk behind the Ball.

Rain for the next week here in Eastern Washington State.

I am a "fair weather" shooter....and 73 years old. I can wait.

DoctorBill

PS - "With all due respect--isn't this getting out of hand?"
Bent Ramrod - Got something else to do ?

THIS is fun ! I love 'discussing' the obvious.
Usually the obvious is different to different people.
Case in point - beautiful women.
Depends on the number of beers you had. lol
Often, the obvious is wrong.
I figured someone matched a weight of BP to a volume and then
manufactured that size measuring "tip" or scoop...whatever.

Yes - "beat it to death, have a few beers and beat on it some more"
Fun - no ? Actually I don't drink.

Should I terminate this thread ?

[Earlwb]

"...the OP's pistol..." Earlwb

What !?

Why would .454 be recommended by the Pistol manufacturer then ?

DoctorBill

Well the OP was wanting to use conical bullets and not round ball bullets. I do not think you could swage in a .454 conical bullet into a .445, .446, or .447 chambers. Well I guess you could but I doubt the frame being only held on in the thin lower part could take it without bending. The bullet press lever probably wouldn't take the strain either.

[Thumbcocker]

178181 I made these cartridges for my BP revolvers out of beauty supply papers with a glue stick. Each cartridge contains powder, lube cookie and ball. Just put the whole thing in and seat cap will burn through the paper just fine. May have to blow some paper bits out every one in a while but no big deal. A member made the mandril I roll the cartridge on out of aluminum stock for me.

[DoctorBill]

Thumbcocker - I was wondering if one could do something like that !

With a Lead Ball at the top end, it would peel off the excess on the Lead Ball
and compress the paper "load" down properly.

Neat.

"You never know what's going to come thru that door !"
Rick Harrison - Pawn Stars

DoctorBill

[Good Cheer]

DoctorBill,
From those chamber diameter measurements it looks like you got a good one. I've seen them not near so close and the chambers visibly reamed to different depths.
One thing to consider as you work up loads... your chambers are probably taper reamed.
The deeper the balls get seated the more their diameter gets reduced. As their diameter will be close enough to bore diameter already they will not benefit from further reduction. So if you use lighter charges you will probably get better results with some filler over the powder.

[DoctorBill]

THAT is interesting, Good Cheer !

Inconsistent chamber diameters ! Varying Chamber depths !

I have not measured the depth with a caliper - never dreamed any manufacturer
would be so...what ? Poor, sloppy, bad....wow !

I guess Pietta is a good manufacturer. Probably "CnC" made - all identical now.
Modern manufacturing techniques are changing the world.
Automobiles made by robots are consistently good (or bad).
No 'made on Monday or Friday' lemons by workers who don't give a ......

My 40 year-old .36 cal 1851 Navy just says "Made in Italy"
there is a stamp on the butt bottom, though.

https://s19.postimg.org/ig27hwk4j/36_cal_1851_Navy_Butt_Stamp.jpg

I bought this C&B by mail order (no internet !) around 1980 (not sure - memory).

I did just put 15 grains of FFFg into a chamber of the 45 cal Pietta and looked to see how full
the chamber was. Not quite half full visually.

https://s19.postimg.org/jtp8zgu03/15_grains_half_full.jpg

Bad focus - sorry. But with a Wax disk and the Ball, looks like it would be
near to the top of the cylinder.

Been wondering if a Card Disk is a good idea or not.
On a hot day or after much shooting, the disk would keep the wax off of the powder.

Interesting variations showing up on this Thread. What's next !?

DoctorBill

[Buckshot]

.............DoctorBill,

PS -"With all due respect--isn't this getting out of hand?"
Bent Ramrod - Got something else to do ?

For goodness sake, you HAVE a lathe, right? Maven mentioned, and posted the web addy for durofelt. I've been doing business with them myself for probably 15 years or more. GREAT people there who will try their best to help if you have questions. You can also buy pure Lanolin if you want to try some in your lube. So far as a wad cutter goes, make one for yourself.

http://www.fototime.com/AB8239CAA6DD6A0/standard.jpg

So make a wad cutter.............

http://www.fototime.com/C3B9BAE8054AEA7/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/8CBCB84DDFEB98C/standard.jpg

Make a lube strip extruder for your reloading press................

http://www.fototime.com/0C84826ED7DFF82/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/D9939A375521A29/standard.jpg

Then make yourself a lube disc cutter. This one I made to cut lube disc's for my Whitworth and Rigby match rifles. The extruder takes the std 1" x 4" sticks. Cut a piece of waxed parchment paper into a 16" strip the width to be a bit wider then the lube ribbon. As the lube ribbon appears bring up the strip of paper up behind it. The lube strip will stick, so as it appears simply bring the paper up with it. The 16" stip can get a bit unwieldy so a couple of 8" ones may be easier. I then snip them into 4" lengths as it's the width of the plastic box I keep them in.

Just lay the strips on top of each other in your storage container so the lube ribbon is sandwiched between the paper. Holding the body of the punch press it down over the lube ribbon to cut the wad. Slide it off to the side, then punch the plunger down to eject the wad, then thumb it off the punch.

Again, I do not use lube cookies behind the ball in my 1860. I use lubed felt wads. I have never experienced a chain fire, however I was present when it happened to my friend Steve. We were in our late teens at the time. He'd bought a brass framed copy of a 1851 Navy, but it was in 44 caliber, from Fed Mart. He fired, and one ball went down the barrel as was expected. However in VERY rapid succession 3 more chambers went off. A ball was lodged against the loading lever. The other 2 left lead smears on either side of the barrel and went whining off at a tangent. At this late remove I don't recall if hed greased the balls or not. However I've also heard that the event may also be caused by loose percussion caps.

...............Buckshot

[DoctorBill]

I will make a Felt Wad Cutter if I feel that those are necessary for shooting
my C&B.

First I will try just the Wax Disk. I now have a small plastic jar with 30 - 40
disks coated with corn starch (see photo in post # 54).

Some here don't use the Waxed Felt Wad and say they never had a flame over.

As Dirty Harry said, "Opinions are like xxx-xxxxx - everybody has one...."

There seem to be a lot of opinions on this forum, but I like to solicit them
and then make up my mine.

Me ? I'm not opinionated ! I am the nicest person you'll ever meet.
Everybody like me ! Just ask me !

Thanks, Buckshot, for the advice and nice photos of your devices.
I wish I could machine metal as well as you do ! They look just like
"downtown" ! My stuff looks more like made in a garage by a hillbilly.
They work, but don't look very good. You never hear about the ones
that don't work......

From my litttle experience with cutting Felt Wads, I bet they cut better
AFTER the felt pad has been waxed. Wool is a tough fiber !

DoctorBill

[Tar Heel]

With all due respect--isn't this getting out of hand?

Completely.

[Idz]

For my 44 cal BP guns I made a press mounted punch for the 1/8" felt from DuroFelt.com. It punches them cleanly with no problem other than having to wipe off the felt dust occasionally. After punching the discs I give them a quick dip in melted "Gatofeo" lube then wrap them in aluminum foil and bake them for 30 minutes in a 250 F oven. The baking soaks the lube through the wad so they don't stick together. I also make my own percussion caps, and cast balls from range scrap. When I get around to making BP I'll be completely independent!
PS. In hundreds of shots I've never had a crossfire so am either very lucky or doing something right.

[DoctorBill]

Idz - got any pictures of your Felt punch ?

How the heck do you make the caps !?

DoctorBill

[Idz]

here is how to make caps:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?274339-Guide-to-making-percussion-caps&highlight=guide

I'll look up my felt punch drawing and post it later

[Idz]

My drawing of my wad punch. Real easy to make if you have some 7/8-14 threaded rod.
178282
I see the image clipped the punch OD. It is nominally 0.470 but should be a slip fit into the die.
178283
I cut my 1/8" thick felt into 1" wide strips and feed it through the slot to punch out wads.
The best way is to make the long version of the punch (2.175 long instead of 1") and mount the die with the short side (right side in image) on top.
I use the $25 Lee reloader press to mount the die and punch.

[DoctorBill]

For those of you who do not have a Lathe or Milling Machine, one has
the following option at Harbor Freight Stores;

https://s19.postimg.org/q9221d4v7/HF_Hollow_Punch_Set.jpg

I have this particular set and embedded one into a Wood Ball with Epoxy in order
to save my hand from blisters when trying to punch out Disks. Slow, hard work !
The old Hockey Puck prevents damage to the Punch. Good for pounding on
as a base, too.

https://s19.postimg.org/exzeczy03/Hollow_Punch_Cut_Wads.jpg

https://s19.postimg.org/mrzzye5sz/Walmart_Felt_Pads.jpg

I originally tried the above to cut Paper Disks for loading 45-70's and
Martini-Henry and Snider Cartridges. Gave up and made Punches on my
Lathe.....But - the Hollow Punches do work. Keep 'em sharp !

DoctorBill

PS - OMG ! I just read the Label on the WalMart Felt - it is PolyEster !
Polyester MELTS ! Wool does not....
Needed a magnifying lens to read it..... Hell - I thought Felt had to be
Wool to be called "Felt".
Damn - I hate to buy a large quantity of real Felt from Duro-Felt.com just to shoot
my C&B once in a while...guess I HAVE to.

Done - ordered 36" x 12" x 1/8" for $22 postage free.

[peachhead]

This thread has me wanting to drag out my Old Army and shoot this weekend. We always used greased wads shooting the OA and a Uberti .36 Navy copy. I still have some Beares Grease which I used for a while just to see if it made a difference but the only difference was it was messier than using the wads. Far as I can remember they are fairly cheap. I looked in my BP bags and I still have some but don't know where they came from because they are in an old metal Band Aid box. Caps were the same, we just bought 'em when they were cheap. I have a ton of them still.

I won't encourage you to just buy the dang things because it looks like you are having fun trying to do it yourself :drinks:.

[DoctorBill]

I am happy to read that some folks are getting something out of this thread
besides anger. Two of you seem to think I am abusing the forum or 'Playing'
you all. Maybe it is what one gets on a public forum. Darth Vader stuff.

Feel free to PM me with any comments. I just don't understand the reasoning
behind the two negative posts.

I have learned quite a bit, been convinced to go a different way and it seems
some others have found this thread informative.

The number of replies on this Sub-forum (Wheelguns, Pistols and Handcannons)
does not seem out of the norm, either.

Neither has any moderator stepped in and told me to bug off !

DoctorBill

PS - Buckshot ! I just ordered a hunk of REAL felt from Duro-Felt.com for $22 postage Free. 1/8 thick - they say I can get 1,400 .45 cal wads out of it ! PayPal, Too !

I don't know Felt from Horse Boogers ! I didn't realize the junk I was buying
locally was PolyEster ! My wife says "good Felt" like in hats is WOOL. Bugger all !

[DoctorBill]

A fellow who visited this Thread sent me a PM and had an old .44 Cal italian
Round Bullet Mold that he offered to sell to me. I bought it and now have it.
Came without the box. Pictures from the Internet - identical.

https://s19.postimg.org/wte0z6xnn/Made_Italy_44_Cal_Mold_B.jpg

https://s19.postimg.org/bl0chrj6r/Made_Italy_44_Cal_Mold_A.jpg

It is a beautiful older "Made In Italy" mold with Wood Handles.

Has a number on the mold - "641B"

I thought it would not cast Lead Balls of sufficient diameter -
but it does ! I also cast some Balls from the LEE mold - very nice !

https://s19.postimg.org/juc7w6cwz/Various_Bullet_Castings.jpg

I believe the .44 cal Made in Italy Lead Balls will work.
They will just fit with maybe .001" oversize.
They do not fall into the .44 cal Pietta C&B cylinder !
Which is good !

The Balls from the Italian Mold have a seam and are not really nice
and round, but maybe they'll work OK.....who knows !?

DoctorBill

PS - Thanks, Steve !

[Idz]

You'll find the real wool hard felt ( http://www.durofelt.com/image_26.html ) works much better than the Walmart stuff but it may be hard to punch out by hand. You really need a 15/32" (12mm) diameter punch to get a good powder seal on the 44 caliber revolvers. Of course you can buy everything, but what's the fun in that?

[Speedo66]

The balls from the Italian mold, being slightly out of round, may cause accuracy to suffer. It's possible though that putting the balls in the cylinder the same way each time, i.e., sprue tab up and centered, may negate any problems.

[DoctorBill]

I am lusting after getting out and firing this hand cannon !

The Duro-Felt probably won't get here for a week. I could fire the
Hornady Balls (.454 inch) w/o worrying about 'flash-over' and use
the wax disks.

The Italian Molded Balls will require the Felt Wads - they don't fit as
tight as the .454's or the LEE Molded Balls.

It has turned Fall here in Eastern Washington State and is raining
every day. Next week is supposed to be sunny - can't count on it tho...

I also have a Carcano which I tried to shoot with cast bullets but Carcano's
are known for not working well with cast stuff - so I bought some
of the "J" stuff (oversized to .267" - special Hornady Bullets #2645)
and loaded up 12 to try out.

Damn ! If Lee Harvey Oswald could hit Kennedy with a Carcano, mine
should shoot straight ! Cast bullets key-hole for me. They are supposedly
darn good rifles ! Just misunderstood....like me.

DoctorBill

PS - can the Italian Brass Ball Mold be polished ?
I was wondering if I were to cast Balls in the Italian mold with a wire
embedded, could one apply polish and spin the Balls to polish out the
non-roundedness and maybe enlarge the size by a couple thousandths ?!
Like I do when I make Aluminum Molds ?
Brass Mold - Brasso Polish !

OR - I could drill a small hole with a ball mounted in my Lathe
Chuck using a number drill and instant glue a Piano Wire into it -
then use THAT.
Maybe the Hornady Ball would be better - better made and bigger.....

If I could get hold of a .454 Ball Bearing, I could squish it in the mold
in my vice or Arbor Press.

[Maven]

I think I'd try "beagling" the mold, which is reversible, before I'd try more stringent measures to increase the diameter of those RB's, Dr. Bill.

[Earlwb]

I do like most of the stuff everyone is saying about this.
But I still remember the old simple approach I used. I would simply load the revolver chambers with powder and ball, then smear on some crisco lard over the bullets. That worked good enough for me. No chain fires. It was somewhat messy in a sense, but it was simple and it worked.

[DoctorBill]

So I had to look up Beagling since I'd never heard of it.

Went to a YouTube video. Makes out of round bullets.
That same vid also discusses lapping with a bullet that comes FROM the mold.

I do that lapping when I make a "drop out mold" where the cast
bullet falls out w/o needing to be pushed out - Smooth sided Paper
Patch bullets !

Yes Earlwb - the 'olde waye' works fine - but then all us 'fiddle pharters'
wouldn't have anything to mess around with.

The messing around, aquiring all the "Stuff" - making the supplies
is the fun part....the shooting is the climax, but the foreplay is fun....

DoctorBill

[Maven]

"Makes out of round bullets."

So what? You're going to increase their diameter enough to allow a ring of lead to be shaved when seating them in each chamber, thus ensuring a decent seal. Btw, a [properly fitted] RB so seated is not round, but elongated with a flat/tangent in the middle.

[DoctorBill]

Thanks to all of you for your comments and suggestions !

I believe I am ready to go to the range and make large clouds
of smoke now....if it stops raining here !

Gotta keep my powder dry.

I hope this 1851 Navy 44 shoots as well as my 40 year old 1851
Navy 36. The 36 cal Navy is very accurate and consistent.

I read that Wild Bill Hickok loved his matched pair of Navy 36's.

Wonder why he was called "Wild" ?

Here is a little blurb on the Cap & Ball revolvers;
http://www.wideopenspaces.com/history-colts-cap-ball-revolvers-pics/

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Received the Duro-Felt. Nice - heavy stuff.

https://s19.postimg.org/iwodumi8z/Duro_Felt_Arrived.jpg

http://www.durofelt.com/products.html

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

I got my .31 Cal Cap & Ball Bullet Mold working and have cast about 30
round balls and 30 conical bullets.

https://s19.postimg.org/duzzwew2r/31_Cal_Police_Pistol_A.jpg

Which now brings me to.....what BP load of FFFg do I load with ?!

Anybody have one of these small Police Pocket C & B's ?

I have NEVER seen any load data for them.

Can't be very much - on the order of maybe 4 or 5 grains.....

DoctorBill

PS - i ordered a .319 inch LEE ball mold. The chamber mic's out
at .314 inch more or less.

Just Found this ! Historical C&B loads.
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=133.0

[Oyeboten]

I am happy to read that some folks are getting something out of this thread
besides anger. Two of you seem to think I am abusing the forum or 'Playing'
you all. Maybe it is what one gets on a public forum. Darth Vader stuff.

Feel free to PM me with any comments. I just don't understand the reasoning
behind the two negative posts.

I have learned quite a bit, been convinced to go a different way and it seems
some others have found this thread informative.

The number of replies on this Sub-forum (Wheelguns, Pistols and Handcannons)
does not seem out of the norm, either.

Neither has any moderator stepped in and told me to bug off !

DoctorBill

PS - Buckshot ! I just ordered a hunk of REAL felt from Duro-Felt.com for $22 postage Free. 1/8 thick - they say I can get 1,400 .45 cal wads out of it ! PayPal, Too !

I don't know Felt from Horse Boogers ! I didn't realize the junk I was buying
locally was PolyEster ! My wife says "good Felt" like in hats is WOOL. Bugger all !

What purpose is Felt supposed to serve in this context?

[DoctorBill]

Oyeboten - I suppose you'll have to go back to the start of this thread to
read about the Felt thing.

So many come into a thread, see a post, and never read the
preceding posts.....

Some use waxed Felt Wads, some don't. Some swear by them, some
say they don't need 'em. Supposedly negates cross-firing.

"Sometimes you're the windshield. Sometimes you're the bug."

Today I feel like I'm the bug......I do not appreciate Winter.
Rain, drizzle, wind - repeat - ad nausium....

I will be shooting at them paper wabbits when I get a chance.

https://s19.postimg.org/jpjzqe9k3/I_m_Hunting_Wabbits_02.jpg

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

I was considering trying to make a 12mm punch to cut disks for my .44 cal
Pietta Cap & Ball - for which I bought a large piece of Felt.....

Decided to have a peek at e-bay's punches.....YOW !

You can get a 12mm punch from China for $3.89 postage Paid !

Have a look at this -
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Round-Hollow-Punch-Set-Hand-Tools-Hole-Punching-Leather-Gasket-CARBON-Steel-/252226235183?var=&hash=item3ab9daeb2f:m:mpc8Z6sqUn72aViBbA1ZxvQ

Here is a screen shot of the web site -
https://s19.postimg.org/sy563o3qb/12mm_Punch_e_bay.jpg
You pick a size, the price comes up and you PayPal it. Bam !

I have purchased directly from China before and have NEVER been cheated or
sold a bad item. The package takes a week or two to get here, but Hell !
Who cares ?

DoctorBill

[dadeo316]

I was considering trying to make a 12mm punch to cut disks for my .44 cal
Pietta Cap & Ball - for which I bought a large piece of Felt.....

Decided to have a peek at e-bay's punches.....YOW !

You can get a 12mm punch from China for $3.89 postage Paid !

Have a look at this -
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Round-Hollow-Punch-Set-Hand-Tools-Hole-Punching-Leather-Gasket-CARBON-Steel-/252226235183?var=&hash=item3ab9daeb2f:m:mpc8Z6sqUn72aViBbA1ZxvQ

Here is a screen shot of the web site -
https://s19.postimg.org/sy563o3qb/12mm_Punch_e_bay.jpg
You pick a size, the price comes up and you PayPal it. Bam !

I have purchased directly from China before and have NEVER been cheated or
sold a bad item. The package takes a week or two to get here, but Hell !
Who cares ?

DoctorBill
Just ordered 2 the other day from a guy in california. Ill check the price.

Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk

[dadeo316]

Just ordered 2 the other day from a guy in california. Ill check the price.

Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk
11mm was 2.74. 12mm was 3.00.

Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk

[wyofool]

Here is what I use for making felt wads
179396
I think the punch is 7/16th the felt is @ 1/8 and I used "the ugly cat's" lube on the felt before punching them out.

[DoctorBill]

Thanks for the info, wyofool !

Never having heard of Ugly Cat's (Gatofeo in Spanish) Lube, I went to Google and
found this....

http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=352.0

Wherein the recipe is (by weight) 1 part Mutton Tallow, 1 part Paraffin (canning) and
1/2 (.5) part Beeswax melted together over boiling water.

Mutton Tallow is for sale via Durofelt and Beeswax you can purchase on e-bay.

Sounds like it would be good for Lube Cookies in BP Cartridges like 45-70's,
Snider and Martini-Henry.

OH ! The use of Egg Carton Paper punched out disks (further down in the link above)
sounds like a good idea....I'll have to try it out.

Eschew the plastic cartons

DoctorBill

[wyofool]

I also make lube cookies from it.179414
The can at the upper right next to the wads has the lube cookies I made earlier. Also the tools used for the paper wads. The blue box has the paper cartridges I just put together for the C&B .44 with .454 rb in the front and .451 in the back. I also put together 12 with the conical's not in the picture.

[DoctorBill]

I received the 12mm punch from China today - 17 days from order.

Nice punch ! Heavy, well made. Now I will drill a hole in a Wood Ball
I get from a Lumber Store (For Railing Tops) and epoxy the Punch into
it so's I can use it by hand and not get blisters.

https://s19.postimg.org/y27yvrisj/Balls_and_Punch.jpg

I mix Aluminum Powder with One Hour Epoxy to make my own
"Epoxy Steel" - you can buy Al Powder on e-bay (some use it to
make Thermite).... The Epoxy stays harder for a LONG time !
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ALUMINUM-metal-POWDER-100-grams-99-9-Lab-Chemical-425-mesh-35-micron-thermite-/201605232680?hash=item2ef09bb828:g:iDAAAOSwM4xXYrk 7
https://s19.postimg.org/63dt4wh5v/Epoxying_Punch_in_Ball.jpg
You can buy Al, Fe, Cu, Brass, Bronze, Ni, Mn, Co powders there !

Been sick for a couple of weeks with some Gawd Awful Chest Cold.
Two different antibiotics and snot by the bucket's full !

Getting better and weather is too. Maybe I can go shoot soon....

DoctorBill

PS - Be very careful drilling the Balls or you'll wind up drilling your hand !
I put the Ball, with thick Leather around it, in a vice....etc.

[DoctorBill]

I have hand punched about 40 Felt Disks now.
Soaked them in my "Lube Cookie" Formula....
which I should give a name to - for posterior.

Anyway, I soaked them in the wax mixture and when hard,
tossed them in Corn Starch, which keeps them separated.

I was having a problem in what to cut the disks on when I
remembered that I obtained a 6" x 6" wood end block in a
Garage Sale ($1) this last summer. VERY useful piece of wood !
I painted it so's it wouldn't warp as 'center' wood is wont to do...

https://s19.postimg.org/kbd54epk3/Wood_Block_Many_Uses.jpg

I have already used it to hammer on to kinetically pull some bullets.
The end grain is tough but resilient and blades won't dull
as the edge goes in, but doesn't harm the blocks surface which just
re-closes up.

A small log cut for firewood would serve well also if cut squarely.
Strip off the bark and paint it - or it might split when drying.
I made a big "Mallot" once using a green, wire wrapped, log.

DoctorBill

[44man]

I use a hunk of 4X4 oak left over from making my lathe bench. Works great with it's weight for a puller too. End grain for punches.
Oak gives a cleaner cut then pine.

[Wayne Smith]

Doc, you asked about volume vs weight measure for BP. Realize that there is no such thing as "grains volume" - grain is a measure of weight and always has been. BP was always measured in grains weight. It was not until the fake BP powders came along that the confusion started. They are less dense than real BP and thus the weight measure was not equivelant but the volume measure was - thus the instructions to only use the volume measure with them.

In short use any volume measure that gives you the weight you want.

[DoctorBill]

Given what you wrote, Wayne, then all the powder measures that one
can buy must be based on density of FFg or FFFg Black Powder - yes ?
...and fairly accurate.

I have a powder horn and a powder flask and a device that is adjustable
for grains of BP - all of which I obtained for a couple of Muzzle Loader
Rifles these many eons ago.

I then obtained some Cap & Ball revolvers and measured BP with the
above BP containers.

It wasn't until I got into my Martini-Henry, 45-70's and a Snider that I
started weighing out the BP for Cartridges. Now I have to go "Back" to
the volumes measures to load these C&B Revolvers at the range.

Has anyone ever confirmed that the powder 'measures' sold in stores
even approximate the weight in grains they say they measure out ?

Is 50 grains, measured in those volume dispensers for Muzzle Loaders
out in the field, actually 50 grains in weight ?

I would presume it is 'mas o menos' (more or less) the same....
the density of Black Powder probably doesn't change (much).

DoctorBill

[Maven]

"Has anyone ever confirmed that the powder 'measures' sold in stores
even approximate the weight in grains they say they measure out ?"

I did that with an old Uncle Mike's adjustable powder measure and my scale: Very trustworthy with either FFFg or FFg. Btw, a Lee dipper or an appropriate fired [brass] cartridge altered to suit works equally well.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

We have seen a lot of good information here about the technology for making felt wads. But although fine for flat based bullets, they are still liable to go dish-shaped and leak around the edges when they conform to the rear of a round ball. This should be prevented by some sort of solid filler, flat on the rear and concave in the shape of the ball on the front. A long time ago I made them in a tube, pressing wax-impregnated paper pulp from both ends with a flat and ball-nosed punch.

[DoctorBill]

Could one not fill a Cap & Ball's cylinder(s) with a Lead Ball on top of Cream
of Wheat (COW) in place of BP, using the (whatever) Wads one has, then remove
the cylinder, put it in the freezer and when cold push the balls out
with the nipples removed to see exactly what the (Whatever) Wads are doing ?

One might place a card disk over the COW so that pushing the Lead Ball
out does not mess with the (whatever) Disk.

At least one could verify what is really going on in there....maybe.

Speculation is fine but gets one nowhere.

B.I.S. - I like your idea of forming cup shaped Paper Pulp Wads ! Cute !

Could one soak Paper Pulp Egg Cartons in hot water and then blend
them in a Blender to make a good paper pulp for forming wads ?
Or for making Paper Pulp Targets looking like certain political types
whom we all love to despise.

DoctorBill