Any information on elevated lead levels

[RogerDat]

I posted this in the poll thread on what are your lead levels. Not much traffic in that thread.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?16442-Are-you-poisoned-The-lead-blood-levels-poll&p=3794669&viewfull=1#post3794669

Am wondering if anyone can provide some information in response to that post on my lead levels. I'm going to be seeing a doctor to follow up and just trying to gather information in order to ask intelligent questions.

[tomme boy]

Wash your hands and face. Never eat drink or smoke while doing any casting related things. 10 is nothing to worry about

[Greg S]

Average is 7-10. I generally test 7-9 unless doing lead abatement ongoing for awhile. Been well over the legal limit. As stated above, clean hands, cloths after working with it, enviromental controls, (fan or fume hood), don't heat to vaporization (cutting pigs into managable sizes) ect...

The most common route of ingestion is handling lead bare handed then eating, drinking or smoking in the work zone without wwshing up, the worst is breathing vapor (smoke) from cutting steel with red lead coating on it or breathing dust from sand blasting the red lead primer off the steel. Lead paint as in trim paint or oil base enamal is nothing like good ol red lead primer for steel.

Also be careful of lead acetate (SP) the white powdery residue on old lead. If cleaning the lead in a solution (i.e. water or solvent) is can enter through your skin.

To be more direct concerning number, adults average 7-10. An adult is fully formed, i.e. bone structure and and brain and have more mass to dilute the dose where as a child receiving he same dose will result in a reading 3-6x what would affect a larger person. Also lead has a more detramental effect on growing kids tha n adults.

If I can remember correctly in a work enviro as a lead worker, 40 requires OSHA notification and a majority of the companies rotate workers out to other non lead jobs, at least in the coating industry. At 50, it is mandatory removal from lead work with followup medical monitoring. Some jobs are diffult to engineer protective measures either due to lead concentration permsq foot or ventilation restrictions. If you n are over and not heavily dosed <30, your body will purge it easily but I believe this is based on your zpp results as lead accumilates in the body kinda like a half life and the more stored the longer it takes to dissapte or be purged from your system.

[leadman]

I was an OSHA certified hazardous waste worker and worked in Safety at my job. Do not believe that lead has to be heated to vaporization to migrate. My BLL went up and I did some testing with lead test kits to find the source. I found the fan behind you makes the lead fumes from the pot (even at 800 degrees or less) swirl around the front of you. I also found lead on objects in my casting area up to 20 feet away had lead deposited on them.
I built a 3 sided "casting closet" with a 20" fan placed on the far side of the pot and shotmaker pulling the fumes away from me. Lead never got above 800 degrees and the fresh plywood I used had lead on it from the pot to the fan. I had tested the materials before I started and also wore aluminum plates that were tested around my neck to catch any lead. The plates did not catch any lead but the fan and the wood back to the front of the pot did.
My BLL was almost 13, I followed the Minnesota diet for children exposed to lead and it returned to around 3 in a short time.
Do not drink, smoke, eat, rub your eyes, etc when casting, sizing, and loading. Best to shower after casting and wash your clothes separate from other clothes. I like the Hi-Tek coating or powder coating since it will make it hard to get lead on your hands when loading boolits.
Take your shoes off before tracking lead thru the house.
The lead test kits can be purchased at most hardware and building supply stores.
A high BLL can also cause high blood pressure, something not mentioned very often.

[RogerDat]

Thanks, especially the OSHA information. I started yesterday taking one 500 mg vitamin C daily, see if that helps. It sort of seemed to me as if my regular doctors office sending me and the lab work to a hematologist might be a bit of an over reaction. New doctor as the one I have had for years retired.

I try to be careful about gloves and ventilation but do recall some lead with white powder on it, I had read here to be more careful with that. My number one suspect is brass, I have gone through 20 or 30 buckets of range brass in order to sort out the 5 or so I wanted, then run all of those through washing and vibration, never wore gloves to wash brass. I may move the vibrator and sifting operation outside. Add a dust mask when doing that, and always wear gloves when cleaing/polishing brass.

Will report back what follow up test is after taking the vitamin C and the recommended precautions.

[lefty o]

the vibrator in my opinion is a bigger concern than any half decent ventilated casting set up. even those who dont think they get dust form the vibrator, they are. after years of reloading/shooting/tumbling with a vibrator my lead levels were in the upper 20's. during the time i worked in the lead plant of an ammo factory i wasnt reloading or shooting much at the time, my lead levels dropped signifigantly.

[mold maker]

The only time my levels were high (7) was when I tumble cleaned over 30 gal. of range brass with walnut.
The dust would boil up when transferring to a squirrel cage separator. Adding some MS kept the dust down and my BLL dropped to 4.
Then I purchased the SS pin citric acid system and it dropped to 2.
I attribute the 2 to the dusty dross from smelting/melting of range and WW lead. As it heats and drys, and is removed from scrap it is in a form that is easily airborne. Careful handling and gentle movements will reduce that problem. It also helps prevent contamination of the ground around the area.
Roger your levels are only of concern if the source isn't found. Taking a good look will usually pinpoint the source and simple common sense remedies are usually sufficient.
All the suggested remedies in the above post combine to make a very safe environment to cast and load in. Then you have to make sure that indoor ranges have adequate fresh air ventilation.

[M-Tecs]

I believe that tumbler media dust contaminated with lead from primers is the biggest source of problems for the reloader/caster.

[runfiverun]

Federal doesn't use lead in their priming compound.

anyway the answers above are all good ideas.
I keep the small dust down in my media tumblers with a little liquid and also by running torn strips of fabric softener sheets through the media to catch all that little stuff.
your either gonna breath or eat the dust or the oxides as your main sources of lead.
just the simple acts of mopping the floor and washing your hands will cut your numbers considerably.

[tomme boy]

Cap full or two of mineral spirits in the media every time I start it up. That was the cause of my high levels. It went from 21 to 3 in a year by only changing that. My tumblers used to run 24hr/day 7days/week a few years ago. About once a month now bause I cant bend over topick up brass anymore. I don't have any semi autos anymore because of this.

[leadman]

I don't know about current Federal primer but the older ones had a different form of lead in them than the rest. But since most of us reload there could be left over lead residue in the case.
Look up the Minnesota diet for children with hi bll. Broccoli also helps lower lead levels. Also test your casting/smelting/ loading area with the test kit. Very easy to use and easy to tell if there is lead about.

[shoot-n-lead]

My question is...How could you possibly eliminate all of the lead? If you are casting bullets, shooting those bullets, cleaning brass and reloading, putting ammo into ammo boxes before shooting and putting brass back into boxes or some type container, after shooting. And, think about all of the containers we use to store and handle bullets, brass, dies and everything that we use that comes into contact with contamination. There is no way to handle and use these components and accessories, as much as we do and not have some lead contamination in the areas we use.

Heck, as clean as we keep our kitchens, there are still germs all over them...no way to have the type control it would take to eliminate contamination...to some extent.

[RogerDat]

I was using a shot of MS and some polish in the crushed walnut about every other load BUT at the same time I was climbing into large 4x4x4 foot bins of spent brass to dig out buckets of it. With gloves but no mask. I know my pants would be pretty dusty afterwards. Going to make it a point if I do any more of that to wear at least a dust mask or paint mask with cartridges and change clothes as soon as done.

Good idea to mop up a bit. I sweep and run a shop vac around the bench sometimes, that is another concern. Vacuum might be blowing out fine dust. Little water sucked in first might handle that.

I tend to agree there is no way that my work areas don't have some lead both reloading bench and casting area. Heck just stacking ingots and then moving them would leave some lead behind. Sorting clean brass probably has some residual dust, I have noticed the few times I did not have on gloves my hands were black/gray with something pretty soon.

Eventually (who knows when) I will stop bringing in and melting lead to add to the stockpile and stash in big batches and just use what I have already in clean ingots. Along with not adding so aggressively to my brass stash. I know wife is waiting with anticipation for that day. And waiting, waiting some more :-)

I would like to be in a position where I can shoot my own stuff for as long as I'm able to shoot at all. Hopefully only doing the occasional replenishment to keep the stock up. But that is not yet the case. Need a bit more of certain powders, primers and gas checks. And swapping brass I don't need from my sorting helps offset that cost. Problem is if I stopped buying lead and alloys I would have more money to buy new calibers that required new molds and dies and....

Taking vitamin C 500 mg a day and since doctor referred me to Hematologist I'll try to get that appointment around 60 days in the future and see if the vitamin and better practices suggested to reduce exposure bring things down. See if doctor sends me to another doctor I don't have to pay the bill myself, insurance kicks in. Putting it off will give things time to drop. Or not in which case back to the drawing board.

[Yodogsandman]

Roger, I recently had levels just above yours. My normal level was from 2 to 4 over the past 37 years. I get tested at work every 6 months because my job involves a little lead work now and then. I too have no idea how I got it. My doc said to drink a glass of orange juice every day to help lower the levels. I stopped casting and reloading for the past 6 months and it's down to acceptable levels (<10) again. Casting like a madman to catch up, now!

I've resolved to do a bit better with ventilation while casting like opening up the window and crack open the door to the barn. Put a fan over the pot to direct fumes away from me. I put strips of old dryer sheets in my tumbler. I'll also clean up spent primers from the catch bin before going any further than sizing/depriming. I'll collect range scrap only when the ground is damp to keep dust down, too.

I

[RogerDat]

Went in to see the doctor for my annual physical which the blood test was part of. I pointed out my reason for getting the lead test was for a base line and to find any "holes" in my safety process. Told him I think it was dust from brass sorting in bulk and polishing so I'm going to take steps in these activities to manage dust and taking 500 mg vitamin C daily to help purge the lead already in my system.

Doctor said all my other blood work was good so no indication lead was causing problem with bone marrow blood production or liver or kidney function and I seemed to have a handle on the situation so no hematologist just come back in for a re-test in 6 months. See if levels are down, same, or up. Take it from there.

[shoot-n-lead]

Went in to see the doctor for my annual physical which the blood test was part of. I pointed out my reason for getting the lead test was for a base line and to find any "holes" in my safety process. Told him I think it was dust from brass sorting in bulk and polishing so I'm going to take steps in these activities to manage dust and taking 500 mg vitamin C daily to help purge the lead already in my system.

Doctor said all my other blood work was good so no indication lead was causing problem with bone marrow blood production or liver or kidney function and I seemed to have a handle on the situation so no hematologist just come back in for a re-test in 6 months. See if levels are down, same, or up. Take it from there.

Great...and please let us know how it goes.

[RogerDat]

Great...and please let us know how it goes. Well had the follow up blood test (~ 6 month) and went from a 10.2 down to an 8.4 so I though great, 20% drop. The steps I took with handling brass seemed to be working, I keep forgetting to take the vitamin C so that is sort of sporadic but going in the right direction and below level of concern. Doctor thought otherwise, referred me to a hematologist for further consultation.

Since then I have done some more reading. Lead in the blood can drop by half in weeks, in the soft tissue it takes months to purge 50% of the lead, from bones it takes many years. This makes me wonder if I'll be purging lead from body fat and bones into the blood stream for a long time. I also will have to ask the hematologist if losing about 10 pounds in the last couple or three weeks might have dumped lead stored in fat into the blood stream.

That last one comes from knowing people that struggled to pass the drug screen for pot. They have a the by-products tested for stored in their fat, constantly getting dumped as they burn fat cells. High fat diet for 3 - 5 days and they pass. Also helps to drink lots of water to flush system. Along with eating lots of meat for the fat which also puts protein by products in the urine so it doesn't test as being diluted by all the water flushing the system. But I digress. Point is I think burning fat from weight loss will dump stored substances in the fat such as lead back into the blood until excreted in urine. Will be asking about it.

Wife tested zero. She was a little worried about being around all my "stuff" since I tested as elevated. I'm like I used to clean parts in leaded gas. I probably have a reserve that will keep me > 0 for another 10 years after I stop casting and shooting. As if that is going to happen!

[shoot-n-lead]

Glad to hear your numbers are going in the right direction. Keep it up...it should get down a little lower.

Thanks for posting this...it has probably made more than just me, be a little more careful.

[Greg S]

Since then I have done some more reading. Lead in the blood can drop by half in weeks, in the soft tissue it takes months to purge 50% of the lead, from bones it takes many years. This makes me wonder if I'll be purging lead from body fat and bones into the blood stream for a long time. I also will have to ask the hematologist if losing about 10 pounds in the last couple or three weeks might have dumped lead stored in fat into the blood stream.

Yes, just like THC.

[Duckiller]

Roger I don't think your lead level is that high for a mature adult. Kids, yes but adults can be higher. Several years ago we had a discussion on this forum about lead levels. Don't remember where or when. Two things I do remember is that adults can tolerate higher levels than children and Drs that don't normally deal with lead will apply kid standards to adults. Bringing your lead level down is good. Best of luck in controllingit.

[RogerDat]

Yeah I thought there was no issue. Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) doesn't require employee's get regular testing unless they hit 25 so being at almost 1/3 of that level seems pretty decent for the amount of time I spend licking lead ingots off my fingers :-P

On the other hand maybe there is something the specialist can suggest that I can take or consume that will push levels down even lower. I'll post whatever they say that might be of general interest.

I did see something sort of funny and interesting. Lead is an element that the human body has no use for in any amount. Lot of minerals and such we can use in trace amounts but not lead. And lead can't be made "safe" once it is smelted from the ore. I guess it only alloys with stuff that still leaves it as lead(may I suggest Sb and a touch of Sn?) and won't break down or convert to a different substance. Alchemist everywhere are totally bummed I'm sure.

[mold maker]

Dr. are taught to watch for kids with ANY BLL. It can be serious with them while only a warning to adults. You are obviously doing things that improve the situation. Take a step back and look for the source and eliminate it. Dry tumbling brass is a prime suspect. Smelting scrap and WW is second unless you spend more time at an indoor range. All three are major suspects, and ventilation is the cure for all three. Don't make or stir up dust. It goes without saying that clean air and surfaces are key.
I'm no authority, but after several long discussions with my Dr, and his studying the BLL currently accepted. I'm not worried about any temporary level of <20, or a long term level of <8. An active caster/reloader/shooter will always have a BLL. It's our conscious habits that keep it low.
If you use clean protective clothing, wash like advised, and eliminate contact sources. you will be fine.

[mjkonopka]

What if I work at an indoor range as an RSO? I'm in the range for probably 2-4 hours a day.

[BOSCHLOPER]

I work for one of the big gun companies... Those of us who are range certified have our blood lead checked regularly. The airborne lead from primers seems to be a greater concern than what we casters get from the pot. Go with the standard hygiene rules. Don't eat while shooting, casting, or reloading. Wash your hands with soap after being around lead.

[Plate plinker]

What if I work at an indoor range as an RSO? I'm in the range for probably 2-4 hours a day.
If the range has a good air filtration system and you do as boschloper says you'll be fine. And don't dry sweep the range. If you do that get a respirator.

[mjkonopka]

We use squeegees to sweep the range. Then use a dust pan to transfer the brass to buckets. The ventilation is really really good at the range though.

[Idaho45guy]

Had mine tested last month and it was 4. That was after casting about 180lbs of bullets the week before...

[mold maker]

The air quality of indoor ranges may or may not be up to par. Just because you don't see a cloud of smoke doesn't mean it's good.
The unburnt powder that litters the range is full of lead. The brass we covet is full of lead dust. The cloud of dust liberated in our dry polishing media is the same. We handle the brass several times before the lead is mostly removed. Then we collect lead in every form handling it in a dirty/oxidized form several times before we cast reasonably clean ingots. The process involves removing/converting the oxidized lead into dross which is mostly un-reclaimed lead and dirt, in a fine dust that is easily inhaled and transferred to our clothes and hands.
We again handle the lead and tools covered with it several time before going back to the range to start the contamination process again.
Is it any wonder we find PPM of lead in our blood? Those of us who have practiced this sport should all be dead. It just proves that reasonable care and regular cleanliness habits protect us from ourselves.
It doesn't make carelessness or thoughtlessness acceptable. We are subjecting all those we have contact with to the same. Our family, our friends, and even a stranger we shake hands with, are effected. Even those who handle a door handle after us, get a small measure of what we carry with us.
Being so prevalent a danger, we are the only ones that have control over the contamination we spread.
Be vigilant to keep lead contained, and responsible for who else is effected, especially our children. They will face enough problems growing up and don't need our complications to further hinder them.
Take a good look and eliminate every reasonable source for your health and those you care for.

[RogerDat]

If I worked in an indoor range I would get my lead level tested as part of a routine annual physical. Provides one with a base line to measure if the levels are getting better or worse. As mold maker points out we make choices that can impact that level. I made changes in my brass handling not lead casting and saw a 20% drop in 6 months. If I were to see a test go up again I would be warned to examine my work habits and exposure points with a more critical eye.

Even more important to have tests done on a regular basis if one works regularly in an environment that offers sources or activities that provide potential for exposure. Who would have thought sweeping the floor could be a problem? Or that maybe a good dose of oil treated sawdust to keep the dust down when trying to sweep or squeegee the floor might drop that exposure by reducing dust.

When a primer goes off it puts lead residue in the air and on the case, lead in dust form is the easiest to get into the system or spread around. I don't work in a range and I figure annual test is a minimum and every 6 months is reasonable if not < 10 or maybe even < 5. Either one would indicate you have a potential to screw up and drive it higher.

Knowledge is powerful stuff get tested so you know what you are dealing with then gain knowledge about what it means and you will know if you need to do anything different.

[RogerDat]

well talked to the hematologist today. He said 10 or below warrants an annual check since lead exposure is taking place, and nothing more. He said the side effects of chelation treatment are more likely to cause harm than the 8.4 level I have.

He went a bit further and pointed out how a recently as 2005 levels of 10 in children would been required to have warranted treatment. now it is down to level of 5 in kids. Over time the acceptable level for children keeps dropping as they find out how little it takes to have a negative effect on development of small children. Adults limits on the other hand have dropped much less.

So a years reprieve. He also said the impact of vitamin C on reducing lead levels was so small as to be negligible.

[gatortommy]

Get in the habit of washing your hands a lot.

[BD]

Another really effective measure is to wash your brass in soap and water before tumbling it.

[GL49]

Another really effective measure is to wash your brass in soap and water before tumbling it.
Excellent idea. I usually avoid the water part because it's such a pain to dry rifle cases, pistols and revolvers not so much. How do you dry yours? Especially 223 brass? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[johnson1942]

an interesting discussion. the only thing i can add is if you take high does of vitamin E that can cause higher lead levels. i take a lot of supplements but stay away from vitamin E in single large doses for that reason. the only way i get it is in a multi vitamin tablet and that is a lower acceptable dose. it was popular several years ago to take a lot of E, not any more.

[xs11jack]

What about running your brass thru a ultrasonic cleaner before tumbler?
Ole Jack

[RogerDat]

I wash my brass in 5 gallon bucket, and have another one with holes in it so I can strain out some of the water, and shake the brass around in that strainer bucket to help drain water from in the case.

Suggestion I picked up here that seems to work well is (while wearing nitrile gloves) scoop out a couple of handfuls into a towel and then wrap it around the brass like you are getting ready to snap the towel at someone. You know hold the ends and spin the towel tight. That plus having the brass in a towel hammock as towel unwinds allows rolling it back and forth to further get water out of the case.

Dump the spun & tumbled in a towel brass into a bucket, then spread on an old towel to dry, sometimes I run and old box fan pointed at the towel covered with brass one layer deep. Some moving the brass around (again wearing nitrile gloves) to make sure it all is on it's side and gets good air flow helps. I have done at least a couple of 5 gallon buckets of .223 that way and it works. I just do about 1/3 of a 5 gallon bucket of brass at a time, that is how big my spreading and drying towel is, so that is how big the batch is.