Lead wash. Lube limits? Advice wanted, suggestions?

[RickinTN]

Hello There,
A friend and I are working with a Remington 700 in 30-06 and 10 twist with pretty good success. We have reached a point that some questions have been raised. We started at 35 grains of 3031 with a 187 grain bullet sized to .3095" for a velocity of about 2,100 fps. The bore is just over .308". The bullet fit seems to be good. At 37 grains of 3031 and a velocity of about 2,200 fps the groups tightened up to just over an inch for 5 shots and a 3 best of under 3/4". At this charge we began to have lead wash in the last few inches of the barrel and no noticeable lube star. It appears the lube has reached it's limits. We are using 2,500+ lube. Are there any suggestions for another lube to try which may perform better? We would prefer a lube we could buy to avoid cooking but if cooking is the best option we could do so. I know we certainly have adequate velocity for this bullet combination to do most anything that could be asked of a 30-06 but with the accuracy improving up to this point would like to experiment further to see if it continues to improve.
Thanks for your input and suggestions in advance,
Rick

[Yodogsandman]

What alloy are you using? Are you air cooling, water dropping or oven heat treating? A heat treated boolit will get you to a higher velocity.

First, I'd try a slower powder for any higher velocity than what you're getting.

Lars has 2700+ lube for faster loads than 2500+ is made for.

3 coats of Bens Liquid Lube added as an overcoat on your boolits with your present lube will help a lot. No cooking involved.

[RickinTN]

The alloy is a high copper alloy. It is 2.4% sb, 3.4% sn, and .9% cu. It is heat treated. From my limited knowledge of high copper alloys the alloy should be holding up and although it is a 10 twist rifle the accuracy seems to indicate that it is. I wasn't aware of the 2,700+ lube as I have been absent from the casting world for a couple of years. I usually use 3031 when I can because of single digit extreme spreads in velocity using reduced loads. Unless I'm mis-reading something I don't have any indication that the pressure is too high for the alloy. I'm not familiar with Ben's liquid lube either. I guess that's what I get for not being around and staying studied as I should. I'll have to look into that and see what happens.
Thanks for your response,
Rick

[Yodogsandman]

Your alloy seems plenty tough enough!

With a softer alloy, a slower jettison into the chamber when fired helps prevent distortion of the boolit, allowing the boolit to better self center itself without as much damage. The last few inches is were the boolit is "relaxing" in the bore after reaching peak pressure. A slower powder would peak in pressure further along down the barrel.

Lars 2700+ is sometimes called "Carnauba Red".

Bens Liquid Lube (BLL) is just a mixture of SC Johnsons One Step Liquid floor wax (40%) and Lee Liquid Alox (60%).
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?259285-NEW-!-!-T-L-Liquid-Lube

[RickinTN]

I always thought Carnauba Red was a mid-speed lube between BAC and 2,500+. That deserves another look. I have Carnauba Red on hand.
Thanks again,
Rick

[runfiverun]

your wash is antimonial wash.
right now your at the apex of your combination so you gotta change something to go further.
the lube is one that might help.
modifying the one you have now could help, a simple change of just 1/2-1 tsp of some regular ol dollar store 2 stroke oil would help it get over the hump.

but to truly move along you will need to change the powder speed to a slower one.
try 4064 at the amount your at now and move ahead watching for the same group changes the 3031 went through.
this will be a pressure/velocity indicator mimicking the 3031 steps but will allow you to go that little bit further taking you to the next hurdle.

eventually you'll end up at the slowest powder for the 30-06 and will have to go past that seeking a 100% case fill in effect backing the velocity down from the cases full jacketed potential to your intended velocity.
in the 308 I went with 4831-sc and kept moving forward with a filler then removing it until it started burning clean then left the filler out until I hit on a superb accuracy node [@1/2" consistent groups] at about 2400 fps.
this is where I quit the game with that rifle and just load and shoot as needed.
I'm still not at 100% case capacity with the sc powder [and probably not at the highest velocity I could achieve with accuracy]
but I'm at that happy spot with the combination.

[RickinTN]

I stand corrected on the positions of the Carnauba Red vs. 2,500+ Lube. I have Carnauba Red on hand. The addition of the 2-stroke oil also makes sense. The progression to a slower powder makes sense as well. This will be one of my friend's hunting rifles this year and I think we are pretty close to a "Happy Spot" for him. I think if we can eliminate the wash and get the accuracy we are expecting at the 37 grain charge or maybe up to 38 and a velocity in the 2,200 to maybe 2,250 fps range he will be satisfied. If not we always know where to go with the 4064.
Thanks for the responses and take care,
Rick

[Wayne Smith]

Antimony wash usually brushes out easily. It really isn't a problem, and if it is your only problem left I would ignore it and brush it out. IMHO it's really not worth the headaches of trying to keep it from happening.

[runfiverun]

I don't even try to remove it.
I look behind the wash for a lube smear.
if there is a smear in that area that is the relax point Yodog mentioned, and you do need to bump the lube to help everything get past that.

[44man]

Hundreds and hundreds of lube tests have shown very little difference with leading although even the best left some wash and like everyone else, I ignore it.
My only leading was from boolits too soft that skid the rifling. I don't like TL either of any kind, don't think there is enough and I hate Alox.
Main reason is accuracy and the difference from one lube to another for groups is astounding.
A suggestion to try 2 cycle oil might work but I had too much trouble with carbon from burnt oil plugging spark screens and even freezing engines. Had rings seize so bad nothing would get them loose, worst was Stihl synthetic.
I switched to Opti II and things work. I have a feeling Bull Plate was Opti II, same color.
After years and years with model planes and a castor oil fuel, that might work too. Safflower and peanut oil has a high flash point but the problem is getting vegetable oils to blend on a molecular scale with mineral oils.
I am convinced Alox burns in the bore, smoke and stink can't be denied. I think it leaves carbon in the bore, does not keep powder residue soft, carbon on carbon. Had the same with SPG with BP, never had bores so fouled at the end.
So far Felix has covered many calibers for me. LBT Soft Blue and some of Lar's lubes work even CR although kind of hard. I don't like a hard lube that breaks out of grooves since some can be left in the grooves when the boolit exits. A good lube will show a clean boolit if recovered. All lube must spin out before the base band leaves the muzzle but it does no good to run out before the muzzle.
Lube has been a huge pain for me once I started testing, never realized it is so important. I used 50-50 for years and had to clean too much.
PC today is fairly new and might work but I am not prepared for extra work and expense.
Lube is like alloy, powder, primer choices. Never settle on one thing, you are a boolit caster that is FREE to experiment. To use only one lube is like using a rock to pound nails. A hammer is cheap.

[RickinTN]

Thanks for the great information from each of you. It will take a while to fully digest. I do have a stash of Bullplate if need be. I think we have decided to change to Carnauba Red to see if it solves the antimony wash issue. We are then going to continue the 3031 test and begin testing 4064 in similar or slightly higher charges. I am assuming if need be the Bullplate could be added to the Carnauba Red in small doses as needed.
Thanks again, and wish us luck,
Rick

[runfiverun]

Carnuba Red is what lead to finding the relax point.
it doesn't flow like a normal lube it is nothing but 7 mixed waxes no modifiers or oils.
it's good [above about 45-f] and easy to use but it isn't what your looking for.

[RickinTN]

So, Bullplate added to the 2,500+? That would be better than Carnauba Red or Carnauba Red plus Bullplate? Those happen to be lubes that I have. Is there a lube we can buy which would suit the purpose better than "doctoring" these?
Thanks,
Rick

[44man]

Not many. Too much Alox or paraffin with moly or graphite. Maybe LBT soft blue. Hard blue was not that good. Veral made a MAGNUM lube that was OK. Had a fellow here that made MML that was very good but seems he was booted and I can't find him. Also Satan's lube that works in some guns.
Ben's Red works good in a rifle but not a revolver, too slippery to break case tension so I would add lanolin. Need STICKEY!
You can make lube better but keep track or you lose. I had a bunch I made that sucked so I melted all together and it worked but I can never make it again.

[RickinTN]

Soft Blue was one that I looked at last night. Don't have any, but can get some. Sounds like maybe the best bet is to doctor the 2,500+ with some Bullplate and take it from there.
Thanks,
Rick

[OS OK]

I've followed these conversations about lube many times but keep remembering a paragraph I read about how a lube works going down the barrel, how it gets out of the lube groves and onto the barrel.
One of the statements made makes a lot of sense to me...Is there enough volume for the lube built into the cast profile to have enough to get to the end?
I didn't see you specify the exact cast, so there's a question there...if there's not enough it's running dry before it exits.

At this charge we began to have lead wash in the last few inches of the barrel and no noticeable lube star. It appears the lube has reached it's limits.

Sounds as though the limits were volume and not the lubricity.

[Lead Fred]

We have taken 165gr ranch Dogs past 2700fps, using both the 2500+ and 2700+.
The stuff works.

[RickinTN]

The bullet is the Accurate 31-180R. I designed the bullet for this rifle and as I recall I deferred to Tom for the lube groove size and volume. I have considered that it simply may not have enough volume. I know that it's generally accepted that the lube groove needed is smaller than I would want.

Rick

[runfiverun]

you don't need a lot of lube.
just the little groove above the gas check is plenty.

what a lube needs is a certain viscosity, and a friction variable.
how it works in a perfect world is for a lube to be hard enough to make the jump across the throat gap then become thixotropic under pressure and to become more thixotropic as it goes down the barrel.

when I'm working on a lube I look for it to be like a firm silly putty in it's natural state and flow at about 85-f under pressure in my sizer.
when I mash it between my finger and thumb and slide them together the lube should feather out to a thin edge.
any oils it deposits on my hands should wipe right off.

when I was making my moly complex lube I ended up adding paraffin to the bees-wax soy wax mix because it starts to flow instantly under pressure.
the base number-1 assembly grease is held to 35% and is bolstered by 15% alox.
the alox is the plasticizer for the paraffin.
and at the end I finish it off with a tbs of atf to 1 lb of lube.
the moly I add is from a polyglycol based lube that is very thixotropic and is not the fine small stuff lyman adds, it is large and will fall through the lube if it is melted.
it's added after the original lube is made and is added by volume, by heating the lube up to a peanut butter consistency then blending the moly stick in.

[runfiverun]

now the simple lube recipe I posted in the lube section will fall under those same considerations and takes changes easily.
airc I posted an offshoot lube made by slightly adjusting the oils and substituting in some alox, near the end of the thread.
it has the ability's mentioned above about how it flows and feathers, but will flow through a lubesizer without any heat at normal room temps.
you also keep the barrel conditioned by swabbing a patch with atf on it before or after shooting with it.

[RickinTN]

Like my friend said yesterday when we were discussing the situation..."Whether you want to get into and study lube or not if you mess with casting and shooting cast bullets you are going to get into studying lube".
I guess it's off to the lube forum to further my education.
Thanks all, and take care,
Rick

[44man]

Like my friend said yesterday when we were discussing the situation..."Whether you want to get into and study lube or not if you mess with casting and shooting cast bullets you are going to get into studying lube".
I guess it's off to the lube forum to further my education.
Thanks all, and take care,
Rick
I have made and tested about every lube ever. Some work, some fail big time. Things are pushed to no end but fail. Everyone on earth has a recipe to be famous but testing is where it is.
Most want to stop leading only. But ruin the bore for consistency. Then they say you need to shoot 500 rounds to SEASON! Are you cooking with cast iron?
I have found NO shots affect a lube over 1 shot. I go from 1 lube to another to test. Need more then a shot to see, the lube is wrong.
I only have one picture to show but the net stopped. If you think you need hundreds of shots from one to another, you are fooled and what happens when you clean the gun? Need 500 more to SEASON? 177983 One lube to another, no cleaning between. Yes, it is that important.
Nobody on earth knows the answers and some say you don't need much lube, one little groove! Got to be out of it. Lube keeps fouling soft to be shot out the next shot along with any lead. I make 2 to 3 GV's on my boolits. Can't have enough. One groove can fail.

[runfiverun]

Jim you don't need that much lube.
you only need the lube you are using to actually work.
the point of the lube is to lay down just enough stuff in the barrel to pave the way for the next boolit.
it then needs to be launched at the muzzle or it needs to ride the boolit to the target.
adding more just adds more and it does nothing.
you need to make the lube work.
adjusting a flow point or getting it through a relax point isn't hard, it's doing those things without affecting something else that takes careful consideration and effort.

[44man]

I want LUBE. Even a TL Lee works better with a good lube.. How can you have too much?

[OS OK]

Heck fellas...we could just 'toss the lube' and start arguing about Powder Coating instead? ...:bigsmyl2: ...

[runfiverun]

naw me and Jim go back and forth on this all the time.
it's partly because he deals with revolvers [where I like a little wetter lube too] and I shoot rifles at high velocity.
they are two different worlds.

[44man]

Yeah we have, maybe for years! :Fire:
I believe it has a lot to do with the lube. I have recovered many store bought boolits friends shot to find some lube still in the grooves.
But maybe a very slippery lube needs some reduction. I just don't use any that do not group. Once I try one, it gets set aside or I give it away.
The worst was when I bought boolits long ago, nice design but when I opened the box, most of the lube was in the bottom of the box. It was a chore to redo them.

[runfiverun]

the thing is I know you use felix lube which is already wet and sticky and doesn't need anything to help it start flowing.
it just needs to make it across the revolvers gap and into the barrel to be effective.
in a rifle there is a point where the hot gas is rushing past the boolit and the lube needs to be firm enough to resist that until it is entrenched into the rifling.
then it needs to go to work and do it's thing.
if the lube is blown ahead of the boolit in a rifle you get a wet muck for a little way's and then nothing.
in the revolver that is probably just about to the muzzle, and the cylinder gap so you still have enough there to do it's job.
your also pushing on the boolit all they way down the barrel so it's keeping a good seal.
in the rifle you run out of gas volume at about 17" and have to fight the lube through that rebound making sure it is still flowing even without the pressure behind it or you lose that little bit of sealing the gaps the lube provides.

[OS OK]

the thing is I know you use felix lube which is already wet and sticky and doesn't need anything to help it start flowing.
it just needs to make it across the revolvers gap and into the barrel to be effective.
in a rifle there is a point where the hot gas is rushing past the boolit and the lube needs to be firm enough to resist that until it is entrenched into the rifling.
then it needs to go to work and do it's thing.
if the lube is blown ahead of the boolit in a rifle you get a wet muck for a little way's and then nothing.
in the revolver that is probably just about to the muzzle, and the cylinder gap so you still have enough there to do it's job.
your also pushing on the boolit all they way down the barrel so it's keeping a good seal.
in the rifle you run out of gas volume at about 17" and have to fight the lube through that rebound making sure it is still flowing even without the pressure behind it or you lose that little bit of sealing the gaps the lube provides.

Gas volume? When the boolit exits the muzzle it still has, I would guess 4,000 PSI give or take depending on caliber, still pushing, though I agree that the increase in speed is quickly making more room behind the boolit and trying to outrun the gas volume that is in decline.
With the lube, it's still being compressed in the bottom of the lube grooves from acceleration and it's being slung against the inside of the barrel from centrifugal forces applied as the boolit is up past prolly 140,000 RPM, again depending on speed and twist rate.
If there is any lube left and if it is malleable enough to respond to these forces and if it has the qualities you speak of...then it should still be there doing it's job...unless of course there was not enough in the first place and the boolit ran dry.
That's my reasoning for suggesting the lube ran out earlier.

[44man]

I like Felix lube even in my rifles. It works in my 30" 45-70 and the 30-30. I don't shoot anything that lets gas get by or anything with run out to tip a boolit.
I never found lube on cylinder fronts or on the blast shield with a revolver either.
One thing I quit doing is shooting a C&B from Creedmore. I could scrape myself into a deep fryer! :roll: Believe me Felix just works. Two of my revolvers are 10-1/2".

[runfiverun]

Charlie you started out with 50-k.
one of the greatest thing that would happen to a rifle accuracy is if you could accelerate the boolit then get pressure to drop off to nothing right before the muzzle.
but there is a point in the 17-18" area where the pressure drops off enough to let everything 'relax'.
if you ever happen to look down your barrel and see a little smear in there and push a patch thinking 'oh crud I got leading' but no lead comes out you got a lube smear.
now the cool thing about it is you can change the powder speed up and down and see that smear move with it.
you can also make it worse or better by adjusting your lubes flow characteristics.

now if your seeing a wet lube star at the muzzle you'll never see the smear, but you can increase accuracy by soaking some of that extra oil up your shoving down the barrel.