rust in two muzzleloaders

[Glassman66]

My FIL just gifted my son and I all his guns and among them were a CVA 50 cal inline gun and a Thompson Center Hawkin 45 cal cap lock rifle.

The CVA has rust almost growing in it and the Hawkin is badly rusted. Can't even see the rifling really. Haven't dropped a light in it but it looks bad to me.

I love guns but really don't know a lot about muzzleloaders. I know the cva is a cheap gun, but that Hawkin seems like it was a nice gun. Has the double triggers and patch box in the stock.

I haven't touched them yet, I wanted your guys opinion before I did anything.


Thanks for the help!



Randy

[Randy C]

Clean it up and send some PIC's

[Glassman66]

I will get some pics, didn't want to start cleaning till I heard from you all the best way to do it.




Randy

[dondiego]

I like to spray the bore with Kroil or some penetrating oil and let it sit for a day. Then a patch down the bore and see what comes out. Make sure the patch and jag are loose in the bore or it might get stuck. Be careful with brushes, they can get stuck too. If you find a bronze brush that slides through the bore and back out fairly easily, add some 0000 steel wool to it and continue with the Kroil.

[glockky]

I would start by seeing of the nipples and breach plug (on the inline) would come loose. If you can't get those out there is not any since in moving on.
After you remove those I would plug the barrel and soak it in Kroil oil or atf. Then get you a heavy wire cleaning brush and start scrubbing and patching. Probably going to be lots of pitting but it may be shootable.

[Glassman66]

Here are the cva's first.

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s450/littrell66/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-09/KIMG0325.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/littrell66/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-09/KIMG0325.jpg.html)

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s450/littrell66/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-09/KIMG0327.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/littrell66/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-09/KIMG0327.jpg.html)

[bubba.50]

don't look like the end of the world to me. looks like it will clean up pretty decent in fact. I would use an undersize jag wrapped with a piece of green scotch-brite or heavy steel wool and some valve grindin' compound from the auto parts store. scrub 'til yer arm gets tired, keep the scotch-brite or wool tight & change it often & use plenty of the compound. may always require a bit of extra effort to clean but, I believe you'll be pleasantly surprised at how nice it turns out.

[Glassman66]

Here are the Hawken.

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s450/littrell66/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-09/KIMG0349.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/littrell66/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-09/KIMG0349.jpg.html)

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s450/littrell66/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-09/0b77e37d-aca0-4618-8d0d-99c8b813a9e1.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/littrell66/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-09/0b77e37d-aca0-4618-8d0d-99c8b813a9e1.jpg.html)

Sorry, hard to get a good pic of the barrel.



Randy

[bubba.50]

don't look like the end of the world to me. looks like it will clean up pretty decent in fact. after the soakin' with Kroil or ATF fluid, I would use an undersize jag wrapped with a piece of green scotch-brite or heavy steel wool and some valve grindin' compound from the auto parts store. scrub 'til yer arm gets tired, keep the scotch-brite or wool tight & change it often & use plenty of the compound. may always require a bit of extra effort to clean but, I believe you'll be pleasantly surprised at how nice it turns out.

[bubba.50]

somehow or other I managed to double-post when I added the line about "after soakin' with Kroil or ATF fluid" in my post under the inline.


that Hawken bore does look rough! but I still wouldn't get plumb discouraged yet. soak & clean it the same way only do it 'til yer arm gets tired twice or three times. may surprise ya how much riflin' shows up. and if after all the cleanin' and a trip or two to the range, if it don't shoot the barrel can be sent to Mr. Ed Rayl in West Virginia or Mr. Robert Hoyt in Pennsylvania to be bore to 50 caliber.

[Glassman66]

Thanks, guys! I will let you know how it comes out. If the CVA cleans up but the Hawken doesn't, I will sell the inline to save the Hawken! Don't really care for the inline anyway.




Randy

[Geezer in NH]

If you have not done it yet check to see if they are loaded!

[dondiego]

What did his other firearms look like?

[nicholst55]

That Hawken looks like it would make into a nice smoothbore!

[Glassman66]

What did his other firearms look like?


There are eight guns total, the muzzleloaders were the worst. He can't own or posses firearms any more so they were in a friends storage building. Not a good place to store them.

There were 2 marlin 60's, 3 shotguns, the muzzleloaders and a M1917 enfield. I think most of these came from a girlfriend needing money, so I don't know any history of them. FIL is not the best guy, my wife doesn't have too much to do with him, but your Dad is your Dad and all kids want to love their parents.

I will clean them up and share them with my kids. My daughter is 15 now and when she was 10, she brought me the money she had saved and wanted to buy her own gun. She has a 702 plinkster and is a dang good shot with it. Love my kids, can't figure out people that don't!!




Randy

[bedbugbilly]

Geezer gives some excellent advice - check 'em before you do anything to make sure they aren't loaded. Then proceed as Bubba suggests. I don't think either of them are "write offs". Once they are cleaned up, then you can see how they shoot. Even pitted bores can shoot well. I've cleaned up original ML rifles that were a lot worse than yours that proved to shoot very well. And it goes without saying, once you get them cleaned up - keep 'em that way. Nothing worse than leaving a BP gun "uncleaned" - no matter what was used to shoot them.

We look forward to hearing about your progress and how they clean up and shoot. Good luck to you!

[Glassman66]

Geezer gives some excellent advice - check 'em before you do anything to make sure they aren't loaded. Then proceed as Bubba suggests. I don't think either of them are "write offs". Once they are cleaned up, then you can see how they shoot. Even pitted bores can shoot well. I've cleaned up original ML rifles that were a lot worse than yours that proved to shoot very well. And it goes without saying, once you get them cleaned up - keep 'em that way. Nothing worse than leaving a BP gun "uncleaned" - no matter what was used to shoot them.

We look forward to hearing about your progress and how they clean up and shoot. Good luck to you!


I actually think the thompson might be loaded. Thinking of using my air compressor in the nipple to blow it out? Is there a better way?



Randy

[aspangler]

Don't be surprized how the Hawken cleans up. I just finished a 32 cap lock from an original barrel. It was found in the attic of an old cabin being torn down. Hand made and rifles and full of rust and mud dauber nests. After clean up and a little tuning it shots three in the same hole. A lot of work but a rough bore is NOT a throw way.

[country gent]

Run the ramropd down the bore more than a 1 1/2"-2" left out it is probably loaded. Check this first before going farhther. with a good penetrating oil ( kroil is very good) and brush for 8-10 strokes keeping the rod centered and supported. Your going to loosen alot of very abrasive crud in the bore. Use a good bronze brush here. Patch and jag to remove crud and inspect. The Draw back to cleaning a Traditional muzzle loader is crud gets pushed in tight against the breech plug and is hard to remove. I would do this several times to remoce all I could before anything else is done. To help loosen the packed area mentioned soak overnight with the penetrating oil mixed with solvent 50-50. Brush and patch clean again. You can also set the back end of the barrel in a bucket of hot soap water or Balistol and water and with a snug patch and jag pump it thru nipple and barrel cleaning the barrel and packed area even better. Best if possible is to remove the breech plug from back of barrel and clean but these were screwed in tight and it may be rusted in place securely now. Ive seen new opnes that required heat and a cheater bar to remove. Clean as best you can and test it with a decent load it should perform well. If pitted it will be harder to clean as the pits will hold fouling and may cause future rusting problems.

[bubba.50]

if the Hawken turns out to in fact be loaded & with that amount of rust in the bore an air hose is not likely to budge it. you can get a 1/4in zerk fittin', screw it in the nipple hole just finger tight & pump it out with a grease gun. not as messy as it sounds & may loosen up some of that rust in the process.

[Squeeze]

Try oils and cleaners first. Im a huge fan of these scouring pads, wipe away rust and dont harm bluing. Ive been using them for decades. http://www.big45.com/ (ive had guys tell me teflon safe kitchen pads are the same and work, I havent tried those myself. even the gun safe pad surprizes me how it works, Its a bit daunting to scrub a gun with one untill you have seen it work) If not, and it needs something more..
An old time backwood electrolosis methos for removing rust, soak the metal parts in a big plastic bin with from 7-12 parts water to 1 part molasses. this will need to soak for days to weeks, you will see a foam on the surface, thats the rust. It will need rebluing after.

[725]

Checking if loaded is an obviously good idea. A grease zerk allows of some good pressures to move a load and is another good idea. If in the end you find the barrels are toast, consider having them rebored. Pick another caliber or have it smooth bored. Cost effective way to save a wrecker.

[Glassman66]

Thanks for the advise. Being that I am really new to muzzleloaders and unfamiliar with this gun, I just didn't like the way ram rod bounced when I dropped it in. I also didn't know just where the bottom of the barrel was for sure. Just want to be safe.




Randy

[Earlwb]

well for the side percussion rifle, the ramrod would come out really close to the nipple, right beside it. The inline it comes out about a 1/2 inch in front of it. You can make a mark on the ramrod in the barrel and then compare it to where the nipples are outside of the barrel. it will be pretty obvious if it is still loaded.

[bubba.50]

if I insert the ramrod in my 45 Hawken ball-seatin' end first about 1 inch of the rod sticks out. if I insert it jag end first about 1/2 inch sticks out. with the amount of rust in yer Hawken these may be a bit different as the small end may not go into the "combustion chamber" as far.

[fiberoptik]

I've bought 2 muzzleloaders, 1 side-lock, 1 in-line, both cheap, rusty, & loaded. 1st was loaded once. 2nd was double loaded; bp/pb x2! Glad I didn't try to pop a cap on THAT one! (Especially in my basement....


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[triggerhappy243]

I would think you would want to knock down some of that rust before the grease gun chore. 4-0 steel wool with motor oil and lap the entire length before the grease gun.

[bubba.50]

4-0 ain't gonna touch that much rust. need the scotch-brite or wool with a few less zeroes.

[waksupi]

Get some 4" PVC and a end cap. Use electrolysis rust removal.

[Glassman66]

I wired up an LED light and dropped it in the bore, so I am sure they are not loaded.

Put some PB Blaster on the nipples and breach plug, and as soon as I get those out, I will get to scrubbing. I have some Big45 scrub pads and will use an undersize bore brush.




Randy

[OverMax]

The inline appears salvageable. Hawken on the other hand not so much. Its possible have the Hawken barrel bored or relined for a couple hundred bucks or bid to buy a replacement barrel off EBay or Gun Brokers <is what I would try to do.
Could try to resolve the Hawken's extensive rusty issues yourself. But the barrels condition I observed (extensive corrosion with rifling deterioration) just may be to late to bother with.

[Glassman66]

Been working on the Hawken and its starting to clean up pretty nicely. I will try to get some pics up soon.

The little screw on the side and the nipple came out pretty easily. It is not obstructed, so not a big build up, I don't think.

Waiting on a breach/nipple wrench for the CVA to show up and then I can work on it.


Can't wait to do some shooting, need to pick up some black powder. Any suggestions on were to start with the .45 cal?





Randy

[ghh3rd]

I have some Big45 scrub pads
That stuff works wonders, doesn't it?

[Glassman66]

That stuff works wonders, doesn't it?

Yes, the rust was very heavy around the nipple and I had to do some scraping on that, but on the rest of the barrel, it has removed it quite nicely. Guess I need to get some kind of bluing to cover where the heavy rust was. As long as it shoots, I am not terribly concerned what it looks like, but would like to make it as nice as possible.




Randy

[mooman76]

Rule of thumb I start out with the cliber equivalent. i.e. 45 cal start with 45gr and work up in 5 grain increments. For pistols and small rifles like 36/32 half the caliber. If you want light loads you can even go lower. I'd try fff powder. The old adage that you use ff in 45 and up is no longer accepted. fff burns cleaner usually and you really have to try them both to see but allot of people have switched and use fff in the larger calibers now.

[Leslie Sapp]

Here's the Thomson Center Manual, it has the recommended loads in it.
I believe those will clean up and shoot just fine.
The Thompson is a fine rifle that will give you many years of service. I've been shooting my .50 cal for over 30 years now, and plan on shooting it for as long as I can see the sights.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

your Hawken is roached. Strip the parts, clean them up, and put them on ebay. Toss the barrel into the trash.

[Glassman66]

Here's the Thomson Center Manual, it has the recommended loads in it.
I believe those will clean up and shoot just fine.
The Thompson is a fine rifle that will give you many years of service. I've been shooting my .50 cal for over 30 years now, and plan on shooting it for as long as I can see the sights.


Thanks for the manual, that helps to see whats inside. I have never shot anything with double triggers. You better be ready to shoot when you touch the front one!




Randy

[Glassman66]

your Hawken is roached. Strip the parts, clean them up, and put them on ebay. Toss the barrel into the trash.


Not so, it is cleaning up nicely and I will post some pics soon.



Randy

[Glassman66]

Here is a couple of pics

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/YhjLwQdjey2h9eQqKmVJY6wZxVwU3Ge7Ys9WyLar51xUICXEwG xpIXodqYBlEWxp-rXtunHNxskYqIEm3C7g5iP2cCrImPMBgfniK38X1CRWN7gbuEe gtcxenGr3qgYAhUVb5rfp-16-8576jw_ggoFrgOHm4P4vroi4LKU5nAe9yKhoCYjhBKz-zu6_Cq2i72-_HWuJpwuHFNmRLnelViUTRekQsjkmTu73r-RvvhC86EE27FuXLGxxdThbTd0bVCRj3TNlESz_QO33zxJ6MA3Z kplBNL6FeGNA6bloIIlunpIx705oW9q0UG1083APYisEbC9gJy-a_iMLeQu9mOZaAFaWiWrhSqyfBwvNgj2PM85bCa71Yodl2KMMp NqTsmT9yJUHueixSSp1ccWiFfyjPuKXw-MEcGFjCXaa4Q0KK-KrROdwbGsQXlX37PEWudeDEPVUIE2kM2aROkfkwvpiQapo7Qe-klTpZFkgw6V4zlxkbKMmY1fKliwA53kzYMMQoRVC8JI-MLT40Ry6rNZV3FKa5jSWy_3uicuOKQmiX18_caBgG1Ut3IoJdB kkASuUPsTiavPypDTpR0L7mTvv-PwqWY9QYAY-JBb-d32004Ae=w708-h943-no



https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/8aF4iZYcCXTljkeiVokCQkpyU-eQfJvL2PhuCjtdHcNeBIo2Bux3i_GgZgsoI1AcFAjoHK0Q8ZcI kiwMaohQWTtimeCxaUvzL61A0XCpKeKkdNmZqlCtQTfSzTy8YN i6Lu8lPMKdF9CdYixfg2lV_jyXt_f07qrz7ru-hicJBrlgwNkuVKSfN2lw9Iy9LZFoSqMM3rOPLx3pk9mVLJF5Xo rsbY5IRoP0fYky6c7SLIXweUAwA-QzFa6sjstc1mib9DK55et1C3Xq4auuz654EDDxQCqrQgPgJZ6j uJ5J3PqxoGxSL_bew3eSiaBkjnVUlrrc2kMEuIzfd-j7WpWkT4yO2yTqAAH23aVZr8mTxVLaepdqW7lh0Lwl_huftyd2 D0DaZ9iDnLC8867iwcNQD0V-XGdhhNeDCaxkCva5xZMrIOHoQZUf8VDeVWkicH2VkXGVg_DOFR SdGbQpr4E70LHmMqzjCUyc7o0hSU4xCmdkY_V6qjzu1B--uECCbY1ar4bmo3SgN7sHP7Ka1fwwDcZ_7mGQmpXJsx65g9a5Bv gm2ysNtFYMkr5BeKouFQJglAgZWXa9z2KYp7N_rzV5w7wrG96q kIdRKUley8_nYb9lktg8=w708-h943-no



Planning on doing some sanding around the nipple hole and I am going to try and figure out a way to drop a light down in the bore so I can take a better pic.




Randy

[Glassman66]

Here is a better pick of the bore.


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/mhiBN0OdQmhy91fR0RBjxAu7oR7hGteG5a8sVchOMuAIVzbsGj DvZF3K_ckZmqRaRboQgiqFPE0NZKJK_MWdakOlEBFoU6sCkZ8Z JmEpZSBFriMYZX7ATA1CbqmyF7wrkV7dSaH-G_YkEHshFqlaCmm5SOyptl83IBr_WpDO_lC2ZOKLYapwHFdilP iDBnLcFu3Feb0VUN6n7bZFP38rIT6Puka1EgsYSo6D2rn-J_ako3lEgAf6gmKn2dqw3TGrVE9Ku7qrp4IAqr2u74gHRbpv6R 3VTca7_uOntjXQ2feHq2rIBm7HeNrm0-YoEovexrWYxGKcQDQjjT1dkJjFuB0xjJ6heMlA7kqEcuvRZL17 mcmQUtcgE1MK_nfj-cBj-PwBx61wbs8E99LDbePEULhejucoI7MRK7eDg1pQXvjXXlhhkFv B4D7bB4Wd8Axek4LcuypRXsaNcJL1OUVSE4l0XzN7mS4zgxQV0 l8a2yl1uMR8ERtTYBykz2eDgzTD151LvOsL3Ei0HnG2PzySZqL Wl2jhuGQ7_NLq-3qEsDB0JcNcuo1yNdRYx0-7Ov9ZGCEGW0VEM0_FKuHfvO04ZDyluEv4RHymvB8WKYrdEjVWV EP8=w708-h943-no




And don't judge me by my workbench!


Randy

[tomme boy]

Some of my best shooting ML's I ever had were just as bad as these were. Just go and shoot them. Oh, my bench is WAY worse than that.

[bubba.50]

your Hawken is roached. Strip the parts, clean them up, and put them on ebay. Toss the barrel into the trash.


I'll pay the postage on all the parts of that Hawken that you want to throw in the trash.

[Leslie Sapp]

better be ready to shoot when you touch the front one!

There once was a big boar hog that was the beneficiary of that fact.
I was pulling the sights down over his back and when I went to slip that gloved finger into the trigger guard, I sent a 320 gr. Maxi-Ball right over his shoulders.
Nowadays it's amusing to to recall just how fast he left the country, but I wasn't smiling at the time. :)

[tomme boy]

One of the fastest and easiest ways I have used to clean a barrel up is to take a mini ball and thread the bullet puller into it and coat with grease and valve lapping compound. Then lap the barrel.

[Glassman66]

One of the fastest and easiest ways I have used to clean a barrel up is to take a mini ball and thread the bullet puller into it and coat with grease and valve lapping compound. Then lap the barrel.


That sounds like a great idea!



Randy

[Texantothecore]

Interesting thread. I have 2 Hawkins which need the same treatment.

Anyone have a name and address for relining a percussion rifle?

[tomme boy]

Bob Hoyt
717-642-6696
2379 Mt Hope Rd, Farfield PA

One of the best there is

[fiberoptik]

Electrolysis?


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[tomme boy]

It works well, but you still have to smooth things out.