Chamber Ringing

[Half Dog]

A new term to me. Can someone tell me a good on-line source that explains what chamber ringing is?

Thank you in advance.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

http://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shooting-and-hunting/Ringing+your+chamber+with+and+without+filler/

[NSB]

Do a search right on here. There are a couple of members who are really experts on this. Lots of info right here.

[izzyjoe]

I bought a Marlin 336 that has a ringed chamber, so it needs another barrel.

[B R Shooter]

OK, I'll bite.....no results in a search...***?

[tomme boy]

Well, since they booted Larry, we lost LOTS of info. Go over to some of the other cast bullet sites and look for Larry Gibson.

[NSB]

Well, since they booted Larry, we lost LOTS of info. Go over to some of the other cast bullet sites and look for Larry Gibson.
Why the heck would they boot Larry Gibson? He was always helpful and was a wealth of info. I don't recall him ever getting into it with anyone. I'm really surprised he's gone. It's a major loss to this site.

[B R Shooter]

I'm not spending my time chasing after something on a different site. You guys mention a "ringed chamber" in the gunsmithing forum, and then won't follow through with what it is?

[mozeppa]

I'm not spending my time chasing after something on a different site. You guys mention a "ringed chamber" in the gunsmithing forum, and then won't follow through with what it is?

highlited "ringed chamber" ...had google search it .....clicked once and read the below.
if you don't spend time chasing info ...then perhaps this isn't for you!....yer welcome.:roll:


"Smokeless powder in black powder cartridges (such as the 45-70 and the 38-55) leaves a lot of air space and can produce a larger extreme spread in velocity due to poweder position. Some sort of filler can help solve this problem. I was reading about some interesting research done by Charlie Dell. Apparently, he could ring a chamber at will with certain normal loads and in certain cartridges by simply pointing the rifle straight up and pulling the trigger. The phenomenon seemed to be caused by the powder all being completely back against the primer and perfectly flat across the base, since it was pointed straight up. The result was a pressure wave that ringed the chamber around where the base of the bullet was. Some have reported a ring at the same location when certain types of filler were used, particularly with straight walled cartridges.It is hard to know for sure without testing, which I do not plan to do, but it may be the case that if a filler both kept the powder perfectly back against the primer AND was fluffy enough to permit a shock wave to hit the base of the bullet, that the same ring could be produced with the rifle in a normal horizontal shooting position. Some have suggested to leave a space between the base of the filler and the powder so that the powder sloped when being fired.
Here's my thinking: Cotton, dacron and kapok can both keep the powder nicely and flatly against the primer, and be fluffy enough to possibly permit a shock wave to ring the chamber exactly as might happen if no filler was used at all but the gun pointed straight up. Polyfiller does not do both. It holds the powder pack perfectly, but I think the polyfill dampens out the shock wave as it compresses, which is why it seems to be safe (though I've never used it). Toilet paper does neither, at least not the way I've used it for thousands of rounds. It sort of holds the powder back nicely, but not perfectly, as some powder can easily work forward a bit into the butt ends of the loosely rolled and folded TP.
I could not see how adding a loose, low density filler into the load could increase pressure in such a way as to ring a chamber, but Charlie Dell's work makes sense to me and maybe turned on a light.
Bottom Line: With certain powders and certain cartridges, it may be possible to ring the chamber by either using no filler and pointing the gun straight up or by using certain types of filler, re-creating the same powder position in a horizontal orientation. The bottom line is to avoid any type of filler that might recreate both the powder position and the shock wave that pointing the gun straight up could cause.
Conclusion: It seems to me that toilet paper loosely rolled and folded is safe, since it does not perfectly position the powder against the rear primer. It also seems to me that polyfill would be safe because although it does perfectly position the powder against the primer, it compresses and dampens out the shock wave. The danger may be in cotton, kapok and dacron with certain loads. I know that Sherman Bell has done strain gauge testing at the case neck with all these kinds of filler and found that the pressure was entirely within the safe zone, but who knows how it would work with different powders, especially faster ones. I would think that slower powders will be less likely to create the nice shock wave.
Personal Recommendation: After reading about Charlie Dell's work and thinking on this, I'm inclined to think that we should not use cotton, dacron, or kapok as filler. If filler is required, I'm feeling that toilet paper, loosely rolled and folded or polyfill should be fine. I've used toilet paper in a few thousand rounds and in different calibers such as 38-55, 45-90, 45-70 and 44-40 with never the faintest hint of a problem. I have been using cotton filler more recently, but after reading about what Charlie Dell found out, I'm swearing off cotton filler. I admit I'm erring on the side of caution, and a lot of fellows use this with no problem at all, but I think Charlie Dell's findings make a lot of sense, at least to me. No more cotton filler for me; it positions the powder too perfectly against the back of the case to risk re-creating the effects of a non-filler, vertical shot.
Alternative: With 5744, I have found a Winchester Magnum primer gives me the same velocity in my 38-55, but a lower extreme spread. So it makes a filler unnecessary."

[NSB]

I'm not spending my time chasing after something on a different site. You guys mention a "ringed chamber" in the gunsmithing forum, and then won't follow through with what it is?
So, you want everyone else to do the work for you? Google it. I don't feel like writing a thesis so you don't have to be bothered. If you want/need to know something look it up. If everyone's not responding to your request, maybe there's a reason. Also, this isn't your thread. It was started by someone else. Start your own.

[GhostHawk]

I too seriously miss Larry's posts here. BTW he can be found at Goodsteel's forum.

https://30eca00a039f-002391.vbulletin.net/forum/main-forum

(https://30eca00a039f-002391.vbulletin.net/forum/main-forum)

[JSnover]

Larry was banned but the last time I surfed a thread with him on it, his avatar didn't say "banned." He may be back but just not posting lately.
Some time ago I took his advice regarding fillers and all was well. These days I don't bother with them.

[Outpost75]

No wad is necessary. All it takes is a significant free airspace in the case and delayed ignition of the charge.

When I was at Camp Perry, OH in 1967 I witnessed DOZENS of M1 Garand rifles which were turned in for rebarreling, after having fired WCC Ball M2 ammunition loaded with WC852 powder (H380) in which a "ring" had formed adjacent the bullet base, partway up the chamber neck. One of the rifles was MINE! I also had a Winchester Model 70 with ringed barrel and the government paid for it to be returned to Winchester for rebarreling.

I have also examined DOZENS of Ruger No.1 single-shots which had been returned to Customer Service, mostly .45-70s, which had been ringed by shooters using wads pushed down against the powder. The service department had sectioned the barrels and had them mounted on the wall at the New Hampshire factory where they were and probably still are plain to see by students attending the police armorer's school. Some rifles had multiple rings corresponding to the bullet base location of various weight bullets they had tried.

Easily-ignited, relatively fast-burning pistol or shotgun powders, having NO deterrent coating, and which tolerate the free airspace in the case, such as Bullseye, Unique, PB, Universal, SR7625, Herco are not the problem.

Most prone to chamber ringing are heavily deterrent coated, spheroidal powders such as 296, H110, 680, 1680, H335, Ball C2, 748, H380, H450, etc. in which there is a high percentage of deterrent coating, and a small particle size in the base grain.

In pressure testing I did attempting to develop suitable .30-'06 loads to operate the M1 Garand, having correct breech and port pressures, using the government test barrel, I was not able to do so with 150-grain bullets using powders such as 748, H335, or Ball C2. I fact, I RINGED THE $5000 government combination breech-port pressure barrel! The results were EXACTLY the same as those observed with the WCC Ball M2 loaded with WC852.

My advice is that if a powder requires use of a filler in order to obtain acceptable ballistic uniformity, than IT IS NOT SUITABLE for those particular conditions of loading.

For reduced rifle charges, lightly deterred, perforated flake and extruded tubular powders such as #2400, 5744, RL7, 4227, 4198 will give best results. Of these Alliant #2400 is the only one which in my experience, performs normally at loading densities below 50% of case capacity. 5744, RL7, 4227 and 4198 should not be loaded at less than 50% of available case capacity. Extruded powders slower than RL7 or 4198 should not be loaded at less than 70% of case capacity. The Hodgdon 75% rule is sound!

For full charge loads, choose a powder in which a safe charge occupies not less than 80% of the powder space and in which velocity standard deviations of a 10-shot sample fired with the powder uniformly positioned using a "SAAMI roll" do not exceed 1% of the sample average. The military procedure is more severe and consists of 5 rounds fired "base tap" and five rounds fired " nose tap" in the sample.

[NSB]

Outpost75,
Excellent post response. This should be a sticky somewhere. I've been following those guidelines for quite a while since those are my best/favorite powders in all my 45-70s. Nice write up.

[Blackwater]

FWIW, I haven't ever done anything with fillers because of the ringed barrel possibility. A friend of mine has, though, and has shot quite a few using fillers. He uses dacron, but the key, as he related it to me, was simply to use ENOUGH of it to fill the case to the base of the bullet. This, he said, eliminated the chance of bulging a barrel, and he should know because he's shot a ton of them. So either he's been lucky, or he's found the right way to use fillers. Not having done it myself, I can't provide any substantiation either way for my own part, but I've heard and read this before from a number of cast bullet users. Keeping small amounts of powder tucked in the same position, no matter whether the barrel is pointed up or down or level, keeps ignition and velocity variation down to a minimum. That's the theory of fillers. Without filler, the powder may variously be toward the front or back of the case, and thus, ignition varies. The filler is mainly for accuracy and consistency. Still, I just can't bring myself to use it in any guns I really value, so .... that's the reason I can't give any personal testimonials. Just thought his experience and explanation might be helpful here.

[Wayne Smith]

PM Greenfrog - he knew Charlie Dell and shot with him. He is also an expert.

[B R Shooter]

First off, for those that use google, shame on you. Google is so in bed with this administration, they are corrupt, they are pro democrat, and anti gun.

Second, I'm not lazy at all, and I feel the comments about being lazy or not doing a search is uncalled for. I did exactly what was posted early, do as each here. I DID a search here and came up with zip.

[OS OK]

Alright...this is very informative but, as others, have not used the fillers and have been warned about using the wrong fillers, especially in bottlenecks, but...have not been subject to this phenomena.

But...I have listened to conversations about 'neck tension' and the results of 'not having enough'...I've been under the understanding that if a primer does force a projectile into the lands and grooves and wedges it there momentarily as the proper 'start pressure' develops and then ignites the surface area of the entire spread out power load...that...that would cause a pressure spike that would ring the chamber, bulge the chamber.

As I am currently a bit confused...could one of you fellas make comment on this, maybe compare the two seemingly different phenomena?

thanks...charlie

[OptimusPanda]

If not Google, then what's your search engine of choice?

[Skipper]

If not Google, then what's your search engine of choice?


Startpage
​https://www.startpage.com/do/mypage.pl?prf=71566a76a244a82954a1722fd86573c5

[NSB]

The problem using a "wad" of anything that doesn't completely fill the air space between the powder and bullet is this: That "wad" of whatever hits the base of the bullet like a projectile (actually, it is a projectile) and the bullet allows too much pressure to build up by impeding the gas expansion. The wad acts like a hammer on the base of the bullet and can leave a ring in that area. Using a "lofted" filler or .5g or less doesn't act like a hammer hitting the base of the bullet. This is all in the simplest terms, but that's what basically happens. I've played with fillers quite a bit using dacron pillow filling and haven't ringed any chambers. I can also tell you that using the powders mentioned in Outpost75's reply I have never gained any accuracy using fillers either. I quit using them as a result. There's simply enough powders out there to do the job without the risk and there isn't any gain. Fillers belong with real black and then they need to be used correctly.

[flounderman]

I was in a DCM club years ago and the government furnished 30-06 ammunition. One time we got corrosive. There was some rifles got a ringed barrel shooting government issue and I heard the ammunition was machinegun ammunition. I don't remember if the corrosive was the problem or it was another batch, but it was government issue.

[leeggen]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/google.php?cx=partner-pub-6216953551359885%3A1942134700&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=ring+chambers%2C+Larry+Gibson&sa.x=12&sa.y=9
Here you go, Larry Gibson on chamber ringing. I used the cast boolit search engine, it is easy to use but sometimes just need to get the wording right.
CD

[B R Shooter]

If not Google, then what's your search engine of choice?

I use DuckDuckGo.

[Green Frog]

PM Greenfrog - he knew Charlie Dell and shot with him. He is also an expert.

Thanks for the endorsement, Wayne but I'm not really an expert... I don't even carry a briefcase! I did absorb some of Charlie's ( a REAL expert, by the way) wisdom on chamber ringing. He was especially interested in the phenomenon in old, soft steel barrels as found in single shots, but the same facts are valid to some degre regardless of barrel vintage. Anything that holds the face of the powder in a flat perspective perpendicular relative to the axis of the case will encourage ringing... he even got ringing by holding the muzzle straight up with NO wad or filling!

Charlie eschewed filler in his rifle loads, but used cork wads placed about 1/8" off the powder so the face would "slump." This seemed to solve the problem. This is the technique I continue to use when I load for the rifle Charlie built for me, so far with no problems.

Anyone wanting more more info should examine Charlie's book, The Modern Schuetzen Rifle, or contact me by PM with specific questions.

Froggie