Cerrosafe stuck in a Martini-Henry

[Oliver]

I acquired a rather nice-condition Martini-Henry, aka Zulu rifle, and being a good careful reloader decided to use Cerrofsafe to cast the chamber. I plug the barrels with a rolled up length of paper towel, and poured in the Cerrosafe.

HTF do I get it out?

I have pounded on wooden does placed down the muzzle, but the paper toweling seems to absorb the shock. Really vigorous pounding breaks the offing ramrod.

Melt it out? Great, but how to I get a chamber cast?

Thanks!

[country gent]

The paper towels will not only absorb the blow but swell and grab the barrel tighter under pressure. On these big bores ( Im assuming 45 cal or bigger here) a ball puller or patch puller may grab the paper toeling and pull it out the muzzle for you. My take a coulpe times as the towel pulls apart. Then you can try and tap out the chamber cast. I ussually just block the barrel with a patch or 2 depending on bore size

[aspangler]

Good advice above. As a last resort, that stuff will melt in plain old hot water. Take the stock off and stick the action in scalding water. No trouble.

[samari46]

Melting point is around 150-200 degrees or so, good suggestion about the boiling water. Do it with the action parts removed so as to prevent the cerrosafe from causing more problems. Frank

[EDG]

Some alloys melt at 140F and you can use a hair dryer to get it out.

Put a thin layer of grease in the chamber when you cast the next one. Then use a heavy brass rod to knock it out the instant it goes solid.
If your chamber is rough you may be out of luck.

[corbinace]

Also, please do not use a wooden dowel.

Your problems may be compounded if the dowel shears along the grain and becomes side by side and stuck in the bore.

[Paper Puncher]

Some information about Cerrosafe.

It shrinks during the first 30 minutes of cooling which should allow it to be extracted from the chamber. It then re-expands to the chambers original size after about one hour at room temperature. After about 200 hours, the chamber cast will expand to about .0025" larger than the actual chamber size.

[MrWolf]

I had the same problem with an old Marlin. Ended up using a heat gun as stated it has a low melting point. Was my first and only time. Think I made a mess for awhile but ended up getting it. Good luck.

[leadman]

When you get the first one out before doing a second one use clay to fill in any areas, like an extractor cut, that will prevent the casting from coming out, then time it correctly and you should have no problems. A bad pit in the chamber will also keep the casting in.
I use a chunk of cloth on a cleaning rod jag to block the bore with. I screw the rod off to make the pour then back on to push it out. For the MH you will want to use a shotgun rod.

[Wayne Smith]

First time I used it I got it stuck too. I used a torch to heat up the chamber of the gun and poured it out. Came out easily. Then grease the chamber (forgot the first time!) and try again. It tapped out easily as soon as it hardened. I haven't waited to remove one since, and haven't forgotten to oil/grease the chamber first, either.

[John Boy]

* Fill the barrel to the breech with water or motor oil
* Load 3gr Bullseye in a case & cap with a wad
* Muzzle down towards a bullet trap or other solid object
Pull the trigger!

[Oliver]

Thanks for all the suggestions! I will melt it out and start over.

The bore on this gun is so nice I feel lucky. Who'd have thought a gun that old could be so nice? It does not appear to have been re-barreled, either. I hope it's a good shooter....

[Tackleberry41]

There really was no standard on those chambers. At the time so long as it would fire the ammunition provided and eject, they did not care the actual dimensions. So it may have dips, bulge or whatever that a thin rifle case can get past but that solid plug of cerrosafe wont compress and get past.

I have 2 of them, the ammunition is not interchangable between them. And over works the brass to try and full length size each time, but using modern dies with what is probably a min spec, in guns with widely different chambers. Your best bet is just make some ammo and shoot it, not get to wrapped up in the usual stuff we do with cast bullets.

[EDG]

Have you considered that his.577-450 chamber has a shoulder and that the Cerro safe cast may have filled up the chamber past the shoulder?


* Fill the barrel to the breech with water or motor oil
* Load 5gr Bullseye in a case & cap with a wad
* Muzzle down towards a bullet trap or other solid object
Pull the trigger!

[Sur-shot]

If you can stick your finger in the chamber you probably have a 577/450 MH. Then if you need brass or ammo, try this at $4 a pop. http://www.gunbroker.com/item/587205670. For a BP rifle they are very accurate and the short lock time makes them a splendid standing gun in BP competition. But..... the bullets are paper patched and as I recall, 5744 is a good powder for them.
Ed

[gwpercle]

First time using Cerrosafe I bet . After my first time I used a Heat gun to melt it out with.
The second time it work's better....you tend to learn a trick or two.
Trick I learned was you only have 30 minutes to get that thing out....I finally broke down and read the directions
If not , just whip out the heat gun....the third time's the charm !
Gary

[Oliver]

Yes, I was a Cerrosafe virgin. ;-) I did read the directions. I think my big mistake was too effective of a paper towel plug.... I'll keep you updated.

[Oliver]

I've melted out the Cerrosafe.

How the heck to I get the paper plug I put in to hold the cerrosafe out? It's "just" paper toweling, but it is REALLY stuck fast. A bullet worm won't do it.

HELP!

[country gent]

Several little tricks here might help. You can try heating the spot where the toweling is at to release any cerosafe bonding it and dry the toweling out hopefully shrinking it. Another thing to try is to set the rifle muzzle down in a pan and fill the chamber with kroil allowing it to soaf for a few days keeping it topped up a couple times a day. Last is to gring a spade type drill point on a piece of steel rod just under bore dia. Wrap rod with tape at several places, every 4-6" is good to a good fit in the bore to help keep it centered. I would turn this by hand cutting the paper towel out and working thru it. The drawback is if it dosnt release then theres noting to push on in the middle. I would start by heating the area with the toweling plug to the point the paper towel smokes and then try driving it out.

[leadman]

Try a strong soap like Castrol Super Clean or Purple Power. Both of these tend to eat away at the paper and are also a good lube for the plug.
When you plug the bore use a shotgun cleaning rod due to the size of the bore and wrap cloth patches around the jag or eye. A smaller than bore size brush can also be used. I screw the rod off leaving the patch on the jag and then after the pour the rod can be screwed back on used to push the casting out, then the plug pulled out of the bore.

[Oliver]

Thanks to all. I will try these ideas.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

There have been bad reports about the reliability of some of the old Kynoch .577/.450 ammunition that has come on the market recently through auction sites. It may have been due to bad storage,, and not applicable to all of it, or it may not.

[4060MAY]

when you do the next cast, get some modelling clay and fill the extractor groove and any places the cerrosafe will flow
my first time with a rolling block, the cerro lowed into the extractor groove and threads on the barrel
I had to pull the barrel to get all of it out

[Tackleberry41]

I see that Kynoch for sale sometimes, most of it looks pretty bad. Doubt the brass would be reusable the way it looks. I think most who own a Martini reload vs buying ammo.

I got out my brass the other day, been meaning to mess with it. When I first bought it, I was not a caster, just used 458 bullets in it. Obviously not going to get much accuracy that way. More of it shoots so good enough. I know a bit more since then. Guess I will have to paper patch some stuff up. Ream out the neck sizer I had been using. I cut down a 45-70 die so it would even use a 458 bullet. Will have to open it up for a better fit. The expander that comes with Lee dies is a bit big, so will have to make another one to fit the rifles. One issue that comes up is using proper 577/450 brass vs converted 24ga. The brass is thinner on the 24ga so throws off sizing and expanding if using the same bullet.

[Oliver]

I've been using purchased brass. Not cheap, but re-doing the 24 ga didn't look to save much, and I expect the brass to be very re-usable. No spraying it all over like those pesky modern guns. ;-)

I decide to cast my bore before settling on a bullet, which led to the above thread. One forgets one is supposed to drain the swamp when one is busy with the d*mn gators. At this point I may just load up some .458 bullets and let them bounce down the bore. Nobody offers anything in the 460-ish range; even molds that size are not common. I do know a machinist.... ;-)

From one crisis to the next. Amazing the redcoats even beat the Zulus.... ;-)

[Tackleberry41]

The 24 ga is considerably cheaper. Last actual brass I bought was dang near $5ea. The 24ga is closer to $1 ea. Yea at first I messed up about half of them, so $2.50 ea. But got it down to maybe ruin 4 out of a box of 25. So closer to $1.25 a case. Not like I need a whole pile of them. I have some I formed and have yet to load. Use some rubber washers in the bottom to take up space use less powder.

Accurate molds probably has a suitable mold or could order one the way you want. 458 bullets are near useless, I could hear them hitting the backstop, but actually hitting a target at any range forget it. My lee 405gr hollow base mold casts to 460. It would be considerable effort to fit some dies to that round, just to see how it does. Mine are made in Nepal so have smaller bores than the British made ones. I am not sure how well that hollow base would do. As we usually put grease cookies and wads under the bullet in a martini so doubt it would slug up as intended. So Im just gonna size them to 459, then paper patch.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I've got some of that Magtech 24ga. which might be the last brass I buy from the USA, since changes in export control made it much more difficult to export rifle and pistol cases. It weighs 220gr., as against 303gr. for a narrower but longer Bertram.450 x 3¼in. Nitro-Express case.

I may be part of a minority, as I will use it for my 24ga Pieper shotgun. I think it should also work for the Snider. But I have heard reports of it splitting distressingly early at the rim if used for even full black powder .577/.450 loads. A rubber washer or cup, probably epoxied in place, should help prevent that. But if one comes out and lurks in the bore ahead of the next bullet, it could be dangerous.

[ascast]

there are 460ish and plus sizes out there. Ranch Dog ran a bunch. NEI. Post an add in the "WANTED TO BUY" section. I have a couple molds in that range, NO not for sale. I do not have any cast up. Nice to get a 100 or so to try. 458 will generally work with lighter side loads, or soft alloy and black or pistol powders to kick them up to size. Or PP.

[Tackleberry41]

I always check for the washers, not had one come out yet. Not exactly easy to get out when you want to. 2 of them in the bottom reduces the BP charge from 110gr to something like 70gr. I have never actually seen a 24 ga shotgun, but have to presume they exist or magtech wouldn't make the brass.

[Oliver]

VICTORY!

The alligators are all dead, and swamp-draining can resume. [smilie=f:

Now, to review the correct Ceerosafe casting tips: I shall re-read all the above tips, and let you know how it goes.

For the terminally curious, apparently the paper toweling plug had absorbed enough cerrosafe to really wedge tight. I finally decided to fully strip the barrel, stock and all, and I heated the plugged section (having identified its location by probing.) I was concerned about hurting the barrel, but paper burns at 459 or so; steel can take more heat than that. When it started smoking I picked the (horizontal) barrel up and dropped a wood dowel in. One tap and a mess of cerrosafe and paper fell out.

I swabbed the barrel with patches, then re-oiled. Seems to be undamaged!

Now, to cast again.

[Oliver]

* Fill the barrel to the breech with water or motor oil
* Load 3gr Bullseye in a case & cap with a wad
* Muzzle down towards a bullet trap or other solid object
Pull the trigger!

This is an interesting idea. I had thought of using compressed air at 125 PSI but your approach makes more pressure. Have you tried in? I could see where it might work, or kill someone.

[Ironnewt]

If I recall correctly, Dixie Gun Works will make you bullet molds for any caliber you want.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

* Fill the barrel to the breech with water or motor oil
* Load 3gr Bullseye in a case & cap with a wad
* Muzzle down towards a bullet trap or other solid object
Pull the trigger!

This approach is excessively interesting. Attempts at world record high diving have reached heights at which they almost always result in serious injury, the reason, outside the realms of applied psychology, being that liquids are solid when you hit them at high enough speed. I think the odds are in favour of everything working out quite all right, but it isn't like there aren't easier and cleaner ways of solving the problem. We have heard plenty here about the ringing of chambers when a small charge is ignited in a large space behind the bullet. You don't get much smaller and larger than your suggestion, or much heavier than 1370gr. of water.

As long as you can get the forend off, enough heat to solve the problem will be perfectly harmless. You don't even need to burn or char the paper. Enough heat to melt the Cerrosafe traces and make the paper bone-dry should do it. You probably don't want to heat paper which has been soaked through in an unsuccessful attempt to blow it out, and certainly not to leave it that way for a few hours. Other methods are to drill a piece of dowel and insert a long wood-screw, or epoxy a piece of 7/16 or 15/32in. K&S model-maker's brass tubing onto a dowel, and file it to two hooked teeth. If it doesn't cut through the paper it will get enough grip to drag it out. If it doesn't get enough grip to drag it out, it will cut through it.

[Oliver]

Followed by failure. I hate Cerrosafe.

I plugged the barrel with one patch on the end of a cleaning rod, greased the chamber, and carefully poured in just enough cerrosafe to fill it w/o going over. I waited five minute. Stuck fast. Had to melt it out.

I have bore gages and other inside measuring tools, from my engine-rebuilding work. I'll use those. If I keep heating and effing with this barrel I'm going to ruin it.

[Bent Ramrod]

I've never found chamber casting to be the walk in the park the Gunsmithing books imply, either.

I start with a barreled receiver, at most. The chamber is oiled, well to excessively, and plugged with a cleaning rod, the top of the jag exposed and the shank wrapped with string. I mark the handle end to show how deep the rod has to go in the barrel. I never had a heat gun and never found a hair dryer that got hot enough, so I've always used steam.

Meanwhile, the Cerrosafe or Wood's metal (or whatever it is) is melting in a small container in a separate pot of boiling water. When the barreled receiver is good and hot, I quickly transfer it to the vise, vertically, with the cleaning rod handle on the floor so the depth mark is at the proper place. I carefully pour in the chamber cast metal. Plugging the extractor cut with clay is a good idea, but the surface tension of the metal generally allows me at least a section of the rim to measure depth without spilling into the extractor cut.

As soon as that "button" of metal looks frosty, the vise is loosened and the barreled receiver pressed or tapped down on the cleaning rod to get the casting out. I find the more thoroughly the chamber is oiled and the quicker the removal process is begun, the better. A sticky casting can sometimes be loosened by heating of the receiver, held horizontally, while pushing in the cleaning rod. A localized smear from heating or occasional bubble caused by oil or air does not make the casting useless for measurements. The point is to get it out as soon as possible and then wait for it to come to its proper dimensions. If it is hopeless, it can be melted out and tried again. It won't harm the barrel or receiver if you do it over and over, but it is exasperating, no?

Some military chambers, like that on my 03 Springfield, were reamed hastily and have circular reaming marks. Your Martini may be the same way. They are not bad enough to stick shells in the chamber, but they would ensure a mechanical lock on a chamber casting. If I had to chamber cast my Springfield, the technique of judicious warming while pushing on the cleaning rod would be what I would use. The casting, even if imperfect, should allow the measurements you need somewhere in the body.

When I see pictures of those perfect casts, I wonder how many tries it took to get them.

[ulav8r]

Have never used cerrosafe, don't know how hard it is, so I don't know how hard it would be to shear it if tool marks or rust pits are holding it in the chamber. My only chamber casts were done with sulfur about 40 years ago.

It the cast is locked by roughness, I would use a solid steel rod, just smaller than bore diameter with 2 wraps of tape every six inches along it's length to try to drive out the cast. If two firm blows with a 2-3 pound hammer did not get it out, then I would melt it out. Next I would polish the chamber for 30-40 seconds with 320 grit wet or dry sand paper and try again. If the cast is still hard to remove, I would set the barrel back 1 thread and re-cut the chamber.

[country gent]

Try a wax for release agent. I have used Pam cooking spray ion a bind. Beeswax or even bulletlube worked into a patch and ran into the chamber to coat then a dry patch to even out coating. insert plug from muzzle so as not to disturb this coating and pour

[vintagesportsman]

Water from the muzzle end will break down the twel to mush, then push out with a jag on your rod.

[skeettx]

I use a .466 diameter bullet in my 577-450,
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/466-475-GC.jpg
Mike

[bonza]

A good source for your .577/.450 M-H bullets molds is X-Ring Services, in Spokane WA. They offer molds for two styles of bullet designed specifically for the .577/.450 M-H; #47-475XR is a .470" diameter & 475gn grease groove bullet, & the #45-505XR is a smooth-sided paper patch design measuring .458" & 505gns.
They also offer unprimed cases formed from MagTech 24g.
Contact info is xringservices(at)yahoo(dot)com

179697179698179699

[ericp]

Like most here, my first time with cerrosafe did not go according to plan. I was making a cast of a 7mm Rolling Block chamber and like you was overly enthusiastic with the bore plug. I made the mistake of trying to remove the cast with a cleaning rod that had cheap crimped swivel below the T handle. When I couldn't get the cast to come out after a few light whacks I gave it big whack with the palm of my hand and the swivel buckled. Ended up sticking that skinny cleaning rod clear through my hand leaving a nifty scar on my palm and the back of my hand. Thankfully it didn't do any lasting damage and my hand still works fine with only occasional minor aches.
That's how I got my one hand Stigmata.

I did learn from this ridiculous lack of brain power and have had no further troubles casting chambers with Cerrosafe.



Eric

[racepres]

I guess I have no Need for cerrosafe...
I have acquired more than one Unknown caliber barrel/action...I kinda guess at the parent cartridge, with the aid of some Wax! Then Fireform some Annealed to soft, brass that will at least go in...Learn alot after that...If I didn't Fireform often, my fish may get hungry!!!!
Yup...Cornmeal, or Cream of Wheat!!

[GunStuff]

Oliver, don't use a cleaning rod or wooden dowel to pound out the casting. They are too weak. Use a steel rod a bit smaller than the bore. Tape the rod every few inches so it stays centered in the bore. With the barell fastened so it won't move, smack the rod with a heavy hammer. That usually causes the casting to come loose even if the casting is a bit long to include some rifling.
Peter

[Oliver]

Thanks again for the suggestions. I stripped the action down completely and melted the cerrosafe out. An extra benefit is that I was able to clean every single part and screw and spring and what-not very well, then re-oil. I'm going to slug the barrel with a soft lead 50 cal ball, but mostly I'm just going to load a few rounds and see what I get, accuracy-wise. Fire-formed brass should give me a good idea of the chamber.

I'll practice cerrosafing using the tips you all suggested, on a less valuable gun.....