why can i shoot a wheel gun better off hand than on a rest?

[johnson1942]

i have 3 uberti open tops. one is a 45 long colt and the other two are 38 special. i just finished a seated gun rest set up at my rural place in the country. took 30 handloads out their for each gun to really see how they shoot at 15 yards on paper from a rest. well was i surprised. didnt like the groups from the rest after a few rounds with each one so i went to shooting off hand and got much tighter groups.why? i lined up on the rest and slowly kept it lined up squeezing the trigger smoothly and i still did better shooting off hand and shooting faster. going to keep doing my small gong at 15 yards shooting faster and off hand. can do that all day with very very few misses. ill keep the paper shooting for my target muzzleloader. maybe ive just practiced more off hand but their must be another reason? help me figure this out.

[bpatterson84]

I think you hit the nail on the head, your more practiced offhand. The way you've built up muscle memory with the gun in a certain orientation in your hand is now changing, and deviations are sure to occur. It does sound frustrating, but go to any public pistol range, watch others "shoot" and you'll feel alot better about yourself ;-)

[dvnv]

How did you rest the guns?

[dubber123]

You have to hold the gun a certain way off hand to shoot it. Meaning it takes a minimum of grip and trigger squeeze to fire a reasonably aimed shot. The gun weighs X amount, and you have to squeeze the grip X amount to prevent movement while you pull the trigger which takes X amount of force. On the rest, you introduce a lot of variables. Sure it cuts down on your wiggles, but you can grip tighter or looser, have more forearm stiffness etc. without ever even noticing, as the bench is holding the gun up for you.

It takes a lot of concentration to reproduce the same trigger pull and grip from the bench, and a good amount of "feel". Even off a bench I can often shoot nearly as good, and sometimes better shooting double action Vs. Single action. I believe shooting D/A forces my grip to be more consistent.

On a decent day I can hold in the 1.5-2" range at 50 yards with iron sights. Not world class by any means, but in case you were wondering if I was just blabbing without any real knowledge. Shooting from a rest isn't easy. :)

[hp246]

DMV asks the important question. How were you resting the gun?

[johnson1942]

i made a v notch set up and put some cloth in the v. then the revolver rested in the v notch quite stable but i have to admit kind of loose. i found out i dont really enjoy shooting from a rest with a revolver but love it off hand. im not world class but i can ring that small gone every shot as fast as i can cock the single action every time at 15 yards. i want to be real fast and consistant every shot so that if i ever have to defend the family im ready.hope that never happens but muscle memory is the key like stated. the gong is heart size and 15 yards is my distance.in retrospect i think i hold the gun a lot more solid during recoil off hand than when i was on the rest.i mainly was checking if all the cylinders were shooting well. i believe them to be. i got fed up with the rest and went over to my gone and rang it every time. ill leave the rest shooting for the rifles.

[Bzcraig]

Remember the movie Butch Cassidy & The Sundance Kid? The Kid shot better while he was moving, maybe you're related! :Fire:

[SSGOldfart]

Remember the movie Butch Cassidy & The Sundance Kid? The Kid shot better while he was moving, maybe you're related! :Fire:
There is a lot of truth in this statement if you can see past the related part,I've had the same problem for years,just today my doctor pointed out,when I hold my right arm straight out,I kinda,turn my right foot towards my out stretched arm and my left eye closes,he thought something was wrong,until I explained I Target shoot.

[44man]

When young----let's see, too large a number to relate! :violin:I shot better with one hand then with 2. Even with a .44 mag. Things change.
I learned how to shoot a revolver from a rest to work loads and I shot better from Creedmore at long range. I mean to 500 meters but now that is not as steady anymore.
The funny thing is when I shoot fast, 1911 or nine, i hit better at 25 yards then slow shooting so I think less concentration is needed. Sight alignment and when they come back to center, the shot is gone before shakes start. It is more like deer hunting, I NEVER remember pulling a trigger or releasing an arrow on a deer. Sights get right and the shot is gone without thought.
We can think our way out of a good shot. Rest shooting needs more control.

[Bigslug]

The rest is changing your grip on the gun - probably making it inconsistent from shot to shot..

Work on concocting a method of resting that allows you to maintain your normal, unsupported grip technique while using the rest.

[Groo]

Groo here
The problem is , your not shooting the same way from a bench as off hand.
I have a 3 3/4 in custom 41mag new vaquero that will not bench but nice and tight off hand also.
The problem is , the gun moves more off hand but the same distance and direction.
The bench restricts the gun movement , and there are more things to bounce against.
Try this, put your off hand on the rest, fit the nuckles of your shooting hand into it.[like a two hand hold]
Do not grip with the off hand.
Make sure the butt will not hit anything [like the bench]
Sit directly behind [like when you shoot standing] and KEEP YOUR ELBOW OFF THE BENCH .
This will allow the gun to kick back and up like when shooting offhand.
Good luck.

[JWT]

Any possibility that the rest is changing the barrel to frame orientation? With an open top revolver, offhand the barrel hangs on the frame while if rested on the barrel the frame hangs on the barrel.

[Blackwater]

Shooting off a rest can indeed cause problems. One thing is where you rest the gun on the bags, and that's generally best when you rest it on the frame just ahead of the trigger guard with SA's. If you try to rest the barrel, that offset ejector housing tends to tilt it, and that can cause larger groups because it's practically impossible to keep the same pressure on it that way. Also, when a gun is rested, many tend to grip it differently, or at least with differing pressures than when shooting offhand. Could this possibly have crept into it?

I had a friend who's the best all-around shot I've ever known run into this same problem recently, and I'm not sure he ever did figure it out. He was more concerned with the differing POI's than group size, but there was a distinctive difference in group size as well as POI. These are the things that can mystify us, but the answer is somewhere in the mix. It's finding it that's hard sometimes. Good luck. These are also learning experiences when they come our way. If it were me, I think I'd probably try repeating the experiment and see if it is consistent, only this time, I'd try to be more keyed in to exactly what I was doing and how I was doing it, and see if I could find the culprit in it all. These are the things that make us better shooters if we let them.

[johnson1942]

thanks Groo for your comments as im also beginning to see revolvers were ment for off hand shooting not rest shooting. old wild bill never shot from a rest and he is a class act to follow.

[bedbugbilly]

I know there are a lot of folks who use fancy pistol rests, etc. . . . and that is fine if you enjoy it. I have never shot from a pistol rest and really have no desire to do it. But . . . I would imagine it is probably a big help to those shooting various types of competition, etc..

johnson . . . what they say about "hold" is true. But as a SA shooter for many years . . . my take on what you experienced is that you "know" your SA revolvers from shooting the offhand and how they shoot. Shooting SA is a whole lot different than shooting a revolver such as a DA Smith, Colt or Ruger . . . especially if they have adjustable sights. On your SA revolvers . . . let's face it, the sights are pretty primitive so to speak. You've learned your POA and POI with your loads . . . and I'm betting a little bit of "Kentucky windage" added in.

I wouldn't worry too much if your "rest" shooting wasn't as good as your "off hand" . . . it just shows that you have practiced and gotten pretty good at shooting offhand with a SA. I wish I had a nickel for everyl time I've heard someone say that they bought a SAA but it wasn't very accurate . . so they got frustrated and went back to their nice DA revolvers. The SAA and a nice DA revolver are like trying to cross breed a horse and a goat . . . two different animals.

I have a couple of 38/357 SAA clones - a Ruger New Vaquero and a Uberti Bisley . . . plus a 7 1/2" Uberti 45 Colt. All are nice shooters but each shoots "different'y". The 45 Colt is a real pleasure to shoot . . . seems like all you have to do is point it in the right direction and you'll come close.

Look at it this way . . . you didn't fail in your "rest" shooting and if you try it a number of times, you'll figure it out. But realistically, you being able to shoot your SAA style revolvers off hand and with decent accuracy is a big plus whether plinking, hunting or woods walking. Most folks seem to practice at just a couple of different distances . . . I like to "mix it up" and shoot from a variety of odd distances as it teaches you how to shoot at odd distances that you might encounter.

I was going to buy a 38 open top but at the time, opted to get the Bisley to try. Then, the 45 Colt Cattleman came along. Next on my list is an open top . . still deciding if I want a 38 or a 45 though. Sounds like you a really enjoying yours! Have fun!

[hp246]

When the gun was rested, were you putting pressure on the barrel?

[Multigunner]

Revolvers, especially colt single actions, are designed to roll back into the hand on recoil. The front sight is made high for just this reason.

I never rest the pistol itself against anything. If firing from a rest I rest my forearms or elbows on a surface, not the pistol itself.

[johnson1942]

i think the gun must of bounced from recoil on the rest. anyways i got another spinning small steel target and set it out 15 yards from the deck on two steel fence post. now i can shoot off hand from the deck and keep that small circle spinning. i figure 15 yards is a combat distance and i want 100 percent hits every time getting faster and faster from one shot to the next. as to getting a 38 special or 45 colt open top, i really like both. however if i only could have one, it would be the 38 special. half the cost to reload than the 45 colt and very little report or recoil. i use resized round balls in the 38 and the 45. i resize 370 balls to .358 and 50 cal balls to .451. i use 10 grains of 209 powder in the 38 and 20 grains of 209 powder. they are much like the loads of the old days. i find them more accurate than the smokeless loads ive tried.

[str8wal]

I never rest a revolver on anything. I rather rest my wrists on a bag and hold the weight of the gun in my hands. I can shoot inside 4" @ 100 yards all day this way. When you rest the gun on anything firm it messes up your grip as well as the gun's natural response to recoil. Revolvers are meant to be held, not rested ;-)

[Blackwater]

One other thing I learned the hard way, was to never let the bottom of the grip rest on any type of bags. That always opened my groups significantly, and erratically as well. Don't know if that might be something to look at, but it's worth a try if you haven't already done that.

[35 Whelen]

I found the same to be true for me, plus I find shooting from a bench BORING. 90% of my revolver shooting is done at 50 yds. and most of that I do seated, leaning back against one of the legs of my shooting bench with my wrists resting on my knees. It all works out though, because when I'm hunting I always sit where I can lean against a tree or some such and shoot with my wrist over my knees. I really enjoy shooting offhand at 50 yds. and find it's great practice. It paid off for me last March when I slipped up on a couple of sows and had to take an offhand shot at a little under 45 yds.
35W