43 spanish

[bigted]

Have an old remington roller military rifle with the 33 inch (near as memory serves) . been shooting blackpowder loads thru her but the shine is bout gone shooting BP and the necessary and infernal swabbing between shots.

Anybody been shooting th8s huge case with smokeless powder with any success?

This is the sister cartridge to the 44-77 chamber. I fill my throat with a 454 inch 370 grain boolit cast from an accurate molds mold i bought years ago when i got the rifle and became aware of the generous chamber/throat. The fired case has the .454 inch neck diameter so that is what i feed her ... So far so good ... Except for the infernal wiping associated wit accuracy and black powder.

Any safe smokeless powder sugestions for this old blackpowder framed dandy?

[elk hunter]

Ross Seyfried, a disciple of Elmer Keith, came up with a formula for using 4198 at 40% of the black powder load i.e. if the black powder load was 70 grains the 4198 load would be 28 grains or 40% of 70. I use this formula frequently. With really big cases I use dacron as a filler to ensure ignition.

Some people will disagree with the above for various reasons It's up to you to decide what you want to do.

[brstevns]

With the Lyman bullet I have been using 24gr of 5744

[Scharfschuetze]

While at the grocery store last night I perused the magazine rack. I noted that the current "Handloader" magazine has an article on the 43 Spanish. While I was tempted to buy the rag just for that article, I didn't as there wasn't much else in the magazine that I needed to read. At any rate, there might be some info there that you can avail yourself to.

[Earlwb]

if it helps any, I like to use the hot soapy water method for cleaning. I put the front barrel end in the bowl of water. Then run the cleaning rod with a good patch on the end up and down in the water. it creates a vacuum and sucks the water up into the barrel. I do that a bunch of times. Then start with fresh soapy water to make sure, as the water gets grungy real fast. Then I dry the bore good and oil it. Anyway it works great. No fuss, much less hassle, no mess unless you tip the bowl over. Since black powder and its residue is water soluble, you don't need fancy chemicals for cleaning. Plus the old timers ages ago in that era did the same thing too. They didn't have Hoppe's Number 9 or anything back then.

[Mk42gunner]

I wonder which version of the .43 Spanish you have? The reason is my 1879 Argentine will only take a .440" boolit.

There were threads years ago by Buckshot that used smokeless in his .43 Spanish.

Robert

[ascast]

I suspect you have a "Rerformando" gun;i.e. not a .439 ish bullet but .454 ish. No matter. IMR 4759 was the best but they have stopped making it. IMR 4198 is good. Unique is also good for 100yd or less,(imho).
Lyman Cast book should give you lots of options, but keep in mind your not a real 43 Spanish. Your case and bore are bigger, I think.

[TNsailorman]

I have an old roller and I didn't like loading black powder in it. I finally tried some Trail Boss powder in it and I have found a friend. Soft shooting and quick cleaning. About a 75% load for your case and your good to go. I use an old cut off .43 Spanish case as a dipper. james

[bigted]

not a reformando ... this is a 43 spanish with the .439 groove diameter. the 2.250 inch case is another hint for the 43 spanish as well as the lack of a octagon barrel stub just ahead of the receiver ... this rifle has the 3 line Remington top tang as well. the chamber is large enough to thumb seat a .454 inch soft boolit in the fired and slightly flaired case mouth [so as not to shave lead upon loading] ... as i have been doing both greasers and paper patched. the generous chamber was {as i have read} used to continue chambering rounds when the blackpowder fouling would shut down the trapdoor 45-70's with their slightly tighter and more stringent chambers . i learned long ago that if you fill the throat with soft lead that the chance of success is far greater then going with the standard groove+ .001 or .002 for loading. this comes from the lack of ability for the gas to cut beside the boolit and throw lead down the barrel in a spray ahead of the boolit. this is to all my understanding a true 43 spanish ... unless i have stumbled and missed something along the way ... {entirely possible}

as for cleaning the BP outta the rifle ... i have no problems doing such with soapy water and oiling after ... however the thing im trying to get away from is the fouling during shooting that ruins accuracy ... hence the desire for smokeless loads.

[bigted]

i will have to research Buckshots posts as i too now remember him posting some loads with smokeless.

i am afraid of the trail boss as even the smaller doses will be a very smart load pressure wise with that powder ... this case will hold 80 grains blackpowder 2Fg without any compression she is a buckin bronco with a full load of BP in the necked down case.

i would use IMR4350 powder as i think i remember that even a full case of this powder is very low pressure but will hold that to just a thought till i get confirmation of this as fact. would be nice to load a nearly case full of powder like the BP loads. the case full premis is that with as little air space as possible ... the accuracy goes up dramatically. or even IMR3031 for that matter.

small doses of fast burning powder kinda makes me nervous in such a huge volume necked case. pre-ignition is not a thing i wanna try in an old rolling block rifle. or any other weapon for that matter ... nor hang fires.

[curator]

BigTed,

How about 23 grains of SR4759 and the Lyman boolit? Can't do this try 25 grains of Reloder7 and the same boolit or 25 grains of IMR4198. .43 Spanish is not a lot different than .45-70 Trapdoor loads. Lots of info out there if you look. Personally, I prefer 5 grains of IMR 4759, 55 grains of Goex FFg and 20 grains (volumetric measure) of Cream of wheat under the Lyman slug cast of 1 in 40 tin/lead lubed with SPG. All of these shoot to the sights of my .43 Spanish Rollers.

[Multigunner]

Could this rifle's chamber and throat have been reamed out at some point to allow use of the Reformado cartridge?

[condorjohn]

Here's the Reformado. 177999

[bigted]

For sure it is the necked 43 spanish ... Nothing like the picture above.

I did take her out for a romp last weekend tho with 34 grains IMR 3031 and the rest filled with corn meal. The 370 grainers felt like a lite blackpowder load ... Which is to say they spun rite smartly outta the barrel. HOWEVER ... loaded some lee 255 grain 45Colt boolits at the .454 inch with the same load powder and fill wise ... My goodness ... These are very fun to shoot and at the 40 yards i could clover leaf these and BOY FUN!!! I will need to cast and load a bunch of those as i ran outta loads WAY too soon.

Do not know the why of the huge throat. It shoots good when fed the .454's tho. I just need to always shoot soft lead or pure lead like the last ones were and the old girl does pretty well.

[Freightman]

I use WC 860-WC872 full case just enough room to seat boolit with slight compression. same FPS as BP

[Buckshot]

.............Here ya go:

http://www.fototime.com/23E5560C8BB6BF7/standard.jpg

The Lyman slug is the 439186, while the RCBS is their (special order) 43-370.

http://www.fototime.com/7CD7CAD02940F78/standard.jpg

My M1879 Argentine contract Rem RB amongst it's contemporaries. It's bayonet is directly above the rifle.

http://www.fototime.com/CFE4FB6484BDAE6/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/259673ADE90A4AA/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/AA2B249CC368BD9/standard.jpg

The long RN slug is a Mountain Moulds design (.420 grs) designed to reach across the long throat to touch the lands. It's shown in the 2nd photo naked and patched. Third photo shows the engraving.

.................Buckshot

[Oyeboten]

not a reformando ... this is a 43 spanish with the .439 groove diameter. the 2.250 inch case is another hint for the 43 spanish as well as the lack of a octagon barrel stub just ahead of the receiver ... this rifle has the 3 line Remington top tang as well. the chamber is large enough to thumb seat a .454 inch soft boolit in the fired and slightly flaired case mouth [so as not to shave lead upon loading] ... as i have been doing both greasers and paper patched. the generous chamber was {as i have read} used to continue chambering rounds when the blackpowder fouling would shut down the trapdoor 45-70's with their slightly tighter and more stringent chambers . i learned long ago that if you fill the throat with soft lead that the chance of success is far greater then going with the standard groove+ .001 or .002 for loading. this comes from the lack of ability for the gas to cut beside the boolit and throw lead down the barrel in a spray ahead of the boolit. this is to all my understanding a true 43 spanish ... unless i have stumbled and missed something along the way ... {entirely possible}

as for cleaning the BP outta the rifle ... i have no problems doing such with soapy water and oiling after ... however the thing im trying to get away from is the fouling during shooting that ruins accuracy ... hence the desire for smokeless loads.


Some years ago I was wanting to eliminate fouling and mess with my Cap & Ball .44 Revolvers and 'Goex' ( I had not yet gotten on to Swiss Powder ).

It may be that my solution would also work just fine in Black Powder Rifle.

With this I have shot several hundred rounds in my older Uberti "Walker" with full charges, and with no cleaning, and I have had no binding of the Cylinder ( Cylinder to Forcing Cone gap is .003 ) and no messy Hands and no schmuts to speak of at all on the Revolver itself.

Here is my method ~

I melt some Bees Wax in a Tuna Can in a pan of low simmering Water on the Stove.

I tear ordinary white Paper Towels into one inch wide or so strips, and I run these through the molten Bees Wax by sort of dipping them one end to the other as a "U", with the ends held between my hands.

I set them flat on to some Foil to cool, and once cool, I use an old Gasket Hole Punch over smooth end grain Wood, to cut out discs which are just a little larger in diameter than my Cylinder Bores, or, than whatever Metallic Cartridge Mouth, I am Loading.

The little Disc then I finger press in on top of the Powder, so the Ball or Boolit then goes over it.

So the Wafer or disc is between Powder and Bullet/Bollit.

As far as I can tell, the little Bees Wax Paper Towel 'disc' basically turns to Gas and lubes the Bore perfectly and alters the composition of what would otherwise have been fouling. Probably some little bit of early Gass carries some of the Vaporized Bees Wax on ahead of the first shot even. But, whether it does or not, I have had no fouling whatever, and everything stays clean.

All I end up with is a very light thin pale grey film which can be wiped off with one's Thumb or a Kleenex, and it is not enough to soil the Revolver. The Bore can be cleaned with a little Wad of plain Paper Towel or Kleenex and a Rod if one wanted, but what little film is even in there, is soft.

I suppose for a Rifle one would use two of the little Discs.

My Walker Revolver with a full charge is 60 Grains I think...my other Cap & Ball Revolvers of course use smaller Charges. .38 Special I run around 18.5 Grains and all of these get one disc.

I use the same little Wafers for Black Powder .38 Special, .45 Colt, and for my other Black Powder Cap & Ball Revolvers, and it has worked perfectly in all of them.

Clean up after shooting for the day, is super easy, just some soapy warm Water and a couple passes with a Nylon Brush, is all I have had to use...then I dry the Revolver laying on a Towel with a hand held Hair Drier propped up, and oil while 'warm', and put away till next time.

My Uberti Walker was my test for this and I think it was 320 odd rounds with absolutely no hint of binding or fouling, and I left it un cleaned for a few years when I had to step away from shoting a while, and nothing rusted, even though it is a Steel Gun.

This was in Las Vegas, where indeed it is drier than most places, but, before that, if I had been out shooting Black Powder and did not clean for a few days, I would see hints of 'Orange' blooming in the Barrel and Cylinder Bores.

Anyway, this may work very well for Rifle, if you would care to try it.