What to do when a rifle won't shoot

[osteodoc08]

I have a newer Remington 700 CDL in 30-06 that I picked up used about 3-4 years ago (rifle is from 2004 IIRC) and I can't get the dern thing to shoot to my standards. I bought it as a hunting rifle and I have tried 150, 165, 180gr Nosler BT and Hornady SST bullets. I've tried several powders. I've bedded it, made sure the bases and rings were tight and have a Leupold 4.5 x 14 VariX 3 on it. I've moved the scope over to a known shooter and it isn't the scope. The best I've got it to shoot consistently is 1.5" at 100yds and about 3" at 200 yards from a bench with Varget and 165gr Nosler BTs. While this isn't bad for a hunting rifle, the other loads are considerably worse.

Just for kicks, I brought my Sig M400 Hunter in 300 BLK to the range today and it runs circles around this thing with a tactical 1-4x Burris tactical scope (no crosshairs, just dots) even out to 200 yards for 10 shot strings, not the 3 shot strings for the Remmy.

At this point since rifle season is close, I think I'm just gonna let her go (with full disclosure) and invest that money into something else, like my Kimber 308 Longmaster which hasn't been shot yet.

What would you do at this point?

[Mk42gunner]

First thing I would do is check the bedding and how tight and even the screws are. Is the forearm rubbing the barrel unevenly?

Next would be to buy a box of garden variety Winchester Power Points in 150 and/or 180 grain weight and try them. I haven't bought any in several years, but they used to be pretty consistent when I was shooting a lot of .30-06.

Robert

[osteodoc08]

Bedding is good. Barrel free floated.

Groups improved with this. I did have some leftover Winchester ammo from years ago (silver box). It would do 2-2 1/2" at 100.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Well, you could find out what sort of "won't shoot" it is, and ten-shot groups are a lot better than three for that. If the groups start reasonably good and then start to string out, particularly up and down, it is likely to be bedding, with the possibility that the bolt is pressing on the barrel. If the group is a more or less symmetrical currant bun, it is likely to be a bad bore, throat or chamber. It would then be worth slowly pushing two oiled lead slugs through the bore, one from the front and one from the rear, and seeing if there are places where it tightens or loosens up. Accurate boresighting, preferably with a laser boresighter, would show if the group is consistently out of line with a hundred-yard prolongation of the bore axis, athat would tend to put the finger on the crown, or the bore close to the muzzle. It is possible that the previous owner sawed at it with the cleaning-rod, and if he always did so in the same direction, the slug test mightn't give much sign of it.

Are those Nosler solid-base boat-tails? I don't even know if they still exist, but they take me back a couple of decades. I wanted to test a P14 Enfield with a frosted but not really bad bore, which I was about to rebarrel as a .300H&H sporter, and having only a few box-ends of .308 bullets, I thought I would use them up. I found that light-jacketed flat-based bullets got groups about as good as I'd dare expect from a rifle of that description, and the issue peepsight. But the Nosler solid-based boat-tails frequently tumbled, and recovered ones showed rifling grooving on one side and scored markings on the other, indicating that they had been pressed hard against one side of the barrel by centrifugal force. Some still worked well. Clearly the difference was that the solid boat-tail stopped them from setting up to groove diameter.

I'm not sure how that would work against my interests, and for yours. Possibly there is a loosening of the bore where expansion and subsequent squeezing down is harmful. Or maybe the reduced length of bearing surface somehow works in your favour.

[knifemaker]

Sounds like your barrel is the problem. You could order a Shilen barrel from Brownells that is pre threaded for the Rem. 700 action and short chambered for the 30-06 and have a gun smith install the barrel and do the finished chambering. I have had very good luck for accuracy using the Shilen barrels sold by Brownells. Check their web site for information and prices. The barrels are very reasonable in price.

[Eddie2002]

I'm working with the same problem with a BDL 700 in 30-06 which I bought new back in the '80s. It doesn't like 150 grain bullets and prefers 180's. I pulled the stock and found that the black plastic fore stock had a big chunk of molded plastic pressing on the side of the barrel, a factory defect which really shouldn't of been there for a top of the line Remington. So far I've floated the barrel and bedded the action but still am lucky to get a decent group at 100 yds. I'm on my third scope, a 4x12 50mm Weaver which has helped but I'm puzzled about why the rifle can't shoot a good group and gets real bad once hot. It's a tack driver with cast at 50yds, go figure. I'm keeping it and will get it right if I can. I'm thinking about corking the end of the stock next to keep harmonics down.

[slughammer]

If it only shoots one load well and all the others considerably worse I would look at the crown and then blame the action for being out of square.

You've already spent enough money on components trying to make it work. Either sell it with disclosure or plan on pulling the barrel and truing the action. Plenty of lemons floating around on the used market; we've all gotten one at one time or another.

[B. Lumpkin]

Sell it to me for cheap!!

Many above gave you some things to look at and consider. Just depends how much you want to ink into it.

[tazman]

If the rifle has been shot a lot and never had the copper fouling cleaned out of it, that might be the problem. I have found that all my rifles shoot much better after removing the copper fouling.

[HollowPoint]

When you work up loads, are you using the "Ladder Testing" method or the "Optimal Charge Weight" method? I'm asking because I purchased a new Savage rifle a while back that I could not get to shoot below MOA. I guess I had become spoiled by the Tikka rifle I'd owned before buying the Savage rifle.

I ask about your load testing methods because I use the OCW method in order to see the differences in my points of impact that correspond to my changes in charge weight.

With the Savage rifle I was dealing with, there's now way I could have ever figured out what charge weight would give me the repeatable groups I was looking for by relying on the "Ladder Testing" method. I used to use the "Ladder Tests" and it would allow me to sort of stumble onto those charge weights that gave me tight groups on that particular range session but, when I went back to the range to confirm that those tight groups were not a fluke, I would be disappointed nearly every time. Those tight groups seemed to disappear on my next outing.

I really don't know what's causing the accuracy problems you've described. If I had to guess, I'd say it's a non-concentric alignment issue of either your barrel or receiver. Getting those issues fixed can cost more than just going out and buying a new rifle. I only mention the different reloading methods as a last ditch effort at finding a solution before spending any more money than you have to.

HollowPoint

[376Steyr]

"I have a newer Remington 700 CDL in 30-06 that I picked up used about 3-4 years ago" and now you know why the previous owner let it go.[smilie=1:
+1 on a thorough de-coppering. I've rescued a few "shot out" rifles with a bottle of Sweet's 7.62 and an evening spent cleaning.
Check the engagement of the bearing surfaces on the bolt locking lugs. I just worked over a M700 long action that had maybe 25% contact on only one lug. The cure for this is bolt lug lapping, which will change the headspace, which will probably require the barrel to be pulled, set back, and re-chambered if you want to shoot factory ammo in it.

[flounderman]

I wouldn't worry about a hunting rifle that shot 1 1/2 groups at a 100. It's better than the shooter most times, in a hunting situation. I would examine the crown, but an extra half inch isn't going to put any more meat on the table. What a rifle will do off a bench and what you can do with it in the field are two different things. You might try some 130 grain and see if it likes them, but as long as the first shot goes where it is supposed to, the next 9 are not needed.

[longranger]

I have two 700's 30-06 BDL and a ADL from the 70's O.A.L was critical to get good groups with all other accuracy issues corrected.Remington has long leads in their barrels and benefit from a longer O.A.L. than the books call for. as much as .030" depending on bullet. I strive for .03-05" off the lands and get outstanding accuracy with most bullets and Varget,IMR4064 and IMR4895 powder both have 20" barrels.

[Piedmont]

I also would look at the crown. If that appears OK, I would fire lap this one with low velocity cast bullets rolled under force in grit. You sure won't hurt anything, so what is to lose?

[leeggen]

If the rifle shoots 1.5 at 100 and 3 at 200 then the gun is pretty consitant. One thing you might try, and I beleive R5R is the one that mentioned it in another thread, is to take a thickness of rubber band and lay it under the barrel at the tip of the forearm. Some times I have found as others a rifle just doesn't like floating the barrel. Try differant thicknesses and always torq your stock mounting screws to the same torq. I don't compare one gun to the other anymore. I have 2 Rem. 700's in 270-one is and ADL and the other is a CDL, they shoot completly different. One will shoot 110 gr hp at 200 and 130 gr at 100 in the same grouping, now move the otherone in and it won't shoot neither like it. I know what happen to the CDL, it has close to 8,000 rounds under its belt. The ADL only has a couple thousand. I just need to do some adjusting to the length and I think they will both be OK. That grouping I beleive is what the Rem. said they would shoot.
CD

[osteodoc08]

If the rifle has been shot a lot and never had the copper fouling cleaned out of it, that might be the problem. I have found that all my rifles shoot much better after removing the copper fouling.

I thought that too and hit it with Sweets 7.62. Had copper but nothing terrible

[Lloyd Smale]

If it was a heavy barreled 22250 or a 7stw id be conserned but an o6 is a 300 yard deer rifle. (few people can even shoot well enough to take deer at 300 yards EVERY time) So that makes your gun a 6 inch 300 yard gun (probably a tad better then that) That's whitetail accuracy all day long if you are capable and do your part. I dont get conserned about a bolt gun that shoots 1 1/2 or better. Sure its confidence inspiring to shoot 3/4 inch groups but truth be told VERY few out of the box o6s are going to shoot that well. In all the 06s ive owned ive only had one that shoots that well, most are about on par with yours. What your getting is typical accuracy not bad accuracy. One thing to try is look at what your most accurate load is so far and then start trying different primers both standard and mag. Once you zero in on the best primer vary powder charge up and down a 1/2 grain at a time. Also if you haven't tried it varying seating depth probably effects accuracy as much as changing bullets. Or you can save a bunch of time and money and just take it out and kill some deer with it.

[Butchman205]

I'm guessing throat erosion, that makes a rifle just quit shooting worth a flip.
You could get a Smith to set the barrel back a tad, and rebore the chamber.
If that's the problem, it's cheaper than a new barrel and sometimes gives an old barrel new life.


-Butchman

[pietro]

Bedding is good. Barrel free floated.





I suggest trying something that will only cost a few accuracy-testing shots.

I would insert some paper shims (business cards ?) into barrel channel about 3/4" to the rear of the black forend tip's junction with the forestock - thick enough to apply "up" pressure to the barrel.

If however many shims improves the accuracy, the shim thickness can be replaced with either a plastic shim (old credit card sections) or a pad of bedding compound.


.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I'm guessing throat erosion, that makes a rifle just quit shooting worth a flip.



It might, but sometimes it doesn't. The bullet used makes a great deal of difference. A Lee-Enfield rifle used to be kept at Woolwich for testing the less erosive single-base powder, and fired a number of shots many times what the civilian user would even consider. I don't believe it was ever rapid fire. Eventually the bore was measurably oversize all the way along, and grossly inappropriate gauges could be inserted a long, long way from the breech, and even some way from the muzzle. Even velocity was reduced, but it still delivered reasonably good practical accuracy - as long as flat-based bullet with fairly thin jackets were used. It was lost entirely with boat-tailed bullets.

The puzzling thing about the OP's case is that he got the best accuracy with boat-tailed Noslers, and very possibly the solid-based boat-tails at that. They should be the very bullets to perform badly if simple throat erosion were the culprit.

[runfiverun]

it's a Remington.
your chamber is cut crooked to your barrel.
got one just like it in 8 mauser, if it were in any other chambering I would have re-barreled it long ago.

[Geezer in NH]

Have a good smith re-barrel it with a good barrel.

[snowwolfe]

I have a newer Remington 700 CDL in 30-06 that I picked up used about 3-4 years ago (rifle is from 2004 IIRC) and I can't get the dern thing to shoot to my standards. I bought it as a hunting rifle and I have tried 150, 165, 180gr Nosler BT and Hornady SST bullets. I've tried several powders. I've bedded it, made sure the bases and rings were tight and have a Leupold 4.5 x 14 VariX 3 on it. I've moved the scope over to a known shooter and it isn't the scope. The best I've got it to shoot consistently is 1.5" at 100yds and about 3" at 200 yards from a bench with Varget and 165gr Nosler BTs. While this isn't bad for a hunting rifle, the other loads are considerably worse.

Just for kicks, I brought my Sig M400 Hunter in 300 BLK to the range today and it runs circles around this thing with a tactical 1-4x Burris tactical scope (no crosshairs, just dots) even out to 200 yards for 10 shot strings, not the 3 shot strings for the Remmy.

At this point since rifle season is close, I think I'm just gonna let her go (with full disclosure) and invest that money into something else, like my Kimber 308 Longmaster which hasn't been shot yet.

What would you do at this point?

Sell it and buy a Tikka. Not being cynical, its the truth. After owning Remingtons for 40 years I'll never buy another now that I own a Tikka. I have never owned a Rem 700 that would shoot as good as my box stock Tikka with its superb trigger.

[castalott]

Use a tight patch to see if there are 'tight' spots anywhere. They need to be lapped out if there are.

If you are a silhouette shooter, I would 'campaign' this rifle for 2 or 3 HARD seasons... That number of rounds might do wonders...


If it were 'my' rifle I might do this...
Get some 'Flitch' polishing compound and using a long Q tip, place some in the barrel just ahead of the chamber. Shoot a reduced load with a long bearing surface bullet. All you care about is the bullet coming out each time. Repeat 4 more times and test... No change = repeat flitch 5 shots.

Don't get any in the chamber area....

If nothing else, you will get it really clean.....

Warning! I reserve this method for guns I have given up on. You can go too far and destroy your barrel. You must have the 'go or blow' attitude to use this method... but it is easier to trade guns....



Many years ago I had a heavy barrel Ruger Target pistol. It shot 6 inch + groups off the bench at 5 yards. My grandfather's temper kicked in to assist me further so I smeared Flitch on the nose of a cartridge and loaded it single shot in the gun and fired. I probably done this 30 times.... I shot at the same target each time and watch the grouping. After 20 shots the impacts started gravitating to the center. When they all started going in the same hole, I quit.

A friend saw it shoot and insisted on buying it....


Stop and think before you do this....

Good Luck, Dale

[Texas by God]

I suggest trying something that will only cost a few accuracy-testing shots.

I would insert some paper shims (business cards ?) into barrel channel about 3/4" to the rear of the black forend tip's junction with the forestock - thick enough to apply "up" pressure to the barrel.

If however many shims improves the accuracy, the shim thickness can be replaced with either a plastic shim (old credit card sections) or a pad of bedding compound.


.

+1- this has worked for me as well. But an inch and a half 30-06 will handle most big game hunting easily. Best, Thomas.

[Texas by God]

Just for grins you might try some RN bullets over 4350 powder. Worth a shot haha. Stranger things have happened. Good luck! Those CDLs are great handling/ looking rifles. Best,Thomas.

[izzyjoe]

I have seen two rifles that shot better groups with a limbsaver barrel dampener, it's just a rubber dampener that slides over the end of the barrel. It's a cheap way to crutch one up sometimes.

[EDG]

Agreed. Try some 180 RN bullets and quit shooting boat tails. Even try 180 grain flat base spitzers by Sierra.


Just for grins you might try some RN bullets over 4350 powder. Worth a shot haha. Stranger things have happened. Good luck! Those CDLs are great handling/ looking rifles. Best,Thomas.

[30calflash]

Maybe a mechanical issue that has been overlooked.

When i worked at an LGS gunsmith shop things like this were head scratchers but usually resolved.

Make sure your scope mount base screws are not being run deep into the receiver at the front receiver ring. I've seen crappy accuracy when the screw was touching the bolt with the bolt closed, affecting harmonics when fired. Touching the offending screws to a grinding wheel taking off one thread fixed it.

Another time on an M70 the striker in the bolt was impeded on free travel so it struck the primer differently with each shot. Some minor stoning took care of it.

The out of square action/barrel/bolt could be there, seen that on even higher end model rifles. Most still shot well though.

But as others mentioned 1.5 MOA isn't a bad thing for a deer/large game rifle.

HTH, 30CF

[725]

AS above, but also, I'd try some 220 round nose. One box delivered isn't too costly and you might just find it's a cure. I never would have shot 220's if I hadn't accidentally stumbled across some. They've turned into one of my very best and favorite. Crumpled a #272 (dressed weight) hog and actually did very little meat damage. In & out with what appears to be minor expansion. It's the kind of performance you hope for. DRT ~ clean kill ~ minimal meat loss.

[Ithaca Gunner]

I suggest trying something that will only cost a few accuracy-testing shots.

I would insert some paper shims (business cards ?) into barrel channel about 3/4" to the rear of the black forend tip's junction with the forestock - thick enough to apply "up" pressure to the barrel.

If however many shims improves the accuracy, the shim thickness can be replaced with either a plastic shim (old credit card sections) or a pad of bedding compound.


.

This is what I did with my Winchester M-70 FWT .308 some years ago after fussing with bedding and screws. It just plain worked. The rifle went from a 3 shot 1.5" grouper to under an inch with the same ammo using this simple method. It does open up after the third shot, but it's a light weight barrel and not a heavy target rifle. I can live quite well with it.

[gnostic]

If you really want a Remington to shoot small groups, the barrel should be free floating and the bullet seated touching the lands. I've never seen a 700-600-40x that wasn't shot out, that wouldn't shoot under an inch.

[Tenbender]

I suggest trying something that will only cost a few accuracy-testing shots.

I would insert some paper shims (business cards ?) into barrel channel about 3/4" to the rear of the black forend tip's junction with the forestock - thick enough to apply "up" pressure to the barrel.

If however many shims improves the accuracy, the shim thickness can be replaced with either a plastic shim (old credit card sections) or a pad of bedding compound.


.


I was going to tell you this. A shim with moderate pressure on the barrel about 1 inch back from the tip will change the whip of the barrel when fired. If that changes anything move the shim
back and forth to see if it improves the group. If it does to your liking build a small bed at the best point with glass. I have fixed several that way.

[Bigslug]

You've got a rifle that will cleanly kill deer to 400 yards. Get your mind out of Benchrest Land and go hunting.

[nekshot]

[QUOTE=Bigslug;3795316]You've got a rifle that will cleanly kill deer to 400 yards. Get your mind out of Benchrest Land and go hunting.[/QUOTE

I agree! Many a decent gun went to pawn shops because of this thought pattern!!!

[toallmy]

Generally the problem child gets the most attention ,so if you don't need it right now it's a project .

[220]

Use it as a hunting rifle like you intended, at anything like normal hunting ranges a miss wont be because of the accuracy of the rifle.

[Texas by God]

I read that Carlos Hathcocks issue M70 30-06 shot worse groups than your rifle.Best, Thomas.

[Dimner]

Try making a chamber cast. I just did this in my ever troublesome Winchester 94 and I found out the grooves were .3105 and there was no throat (even though this is common for a 30-30). Which is why I was getting 3-6" groups with factory loads and a scope at 50 yards. Perhaps your jacketed bullets are undersized.

[edward hogan]

Bought the gun used?

Didja ever really clean the hell out of it? Might take you a weekend and a new bottle of Barnes CR10 but I would start there.

Of course, you may have a damaged barrel...

Can probably find another Remington Takeoff barrel on Ebay or Gunbroker for cheap and see. if you got a .308 already, maybe look for a .280rem or Whelen barrel?

[shootsblanks]

[QUOTE=Bigslug;3795316]You've got a rifle that will cleanly kill deer to 400 yards. Get your mind out of Benchrest Land and go hunting.[/QUOTE

I agree! Many a decent gun went to pawn shops because of this thought pattern!!!

don't tell him that! if people stop selling perfectly good rifles to pawn shops and gun stores because they "only" shoot 1 1/2" groups I wont be able to afford quality "inaccurate" firearms,

[frankenfab]

I would try adding a pressure point as some have already suggested. There is a a point in barrel contours where this works better than free floating.

[MT Gianni]

If you can not trust it to do what you want sell it down the river. Your confidence in it, will effect your hunting with it.

[tazman]

I have a rule about firearms. If, after 4 trips to the range, the gun isn't doing what I want or at least showing significant signs of improvement, it goes on to another home.
Life is too short to shoot inaccurate guns.