Win94 Chamber Cast Analysis Help - What are my options?

[Dimner]

Howdy everyone.

I have posted a few times before about my troubles getting my Teddy Roosevelt Commemorative Winchester 94 shooting with any kind of accuracy. I would get occasional decent 4 shot groups but when I did 10 shot groups, i would get many fliers. Well I got fed up and did a pound chamber casting because all the normal tips and tricks would do very little for me. All I want is 1" at 50 yards. And this rifle isn't doing that.

So here are the results of the cast. I need help interpreting it (I have never done a chamber cast before) and I need help figuring out what to do next.

Note: Measurements made with my cheap digital calipers. They do a good job at showing the same reading over and over, but I am going to measure this casting again this afternoon with a friends starrett micrometer.


177194

other views of the cast:

177195

177196

So where do I go next? Obviously I need a really fat boolit. .312. But if I go for a .312 mold, what are the chances that it is not going to fit in my chamber... or cycle from the magazine tube to the chamber.


http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/images/N.O.E._Bullet_Moulds_312-160-FN_(GC)_159_gr_Sketch.Jpg

Or is there a remedy that can be done by a gunsmith? The chamber cast showing the .310 grooves really explains why I am getting absolutely dismal performance from Jacketed bullets of all sizes.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I guess someone has to be first to jump in--always risky. First, I'm unfamiliar with the type of chamber cast you've used here. I've always used a liquid cerrosafe pour. What you've done is more in the nature of a bore slug. Looking at it, I don't see a throat or any freebore. I've never seen a barrel chamber where the rifling starts at the very front of the mouth of the cartridge--there has to be room for the bullet. So, probably due to unfamiliarity with your system, I don't know what to advise you. If this is a true representation of your rifle's chamber I would start by having a gunsmith inspect it, and perhaps he will find it necessary to run a chambering reamer into it and finish it up.

[Dimner]

No risk here! I really appreciate the reply. I'm at a crossroads here with no idea where to go.

This was done using the pound cast method of creating a casting of the chamber. The cast is made using soft lead, probably pure lead. I used melted 50 cal muzzle loader round balls.

Info can be found at this sticky post: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?218414-FYI-This-is-how-I-do-a-pound-cast


You are correct, this rifle has no throat. I don't know enough about the 30-30 chamber specifications to tell you how much throat there should be. But I do know the 30WCF is not like a 30-06 that has a large throat area.

Other information that might be useful. The brass I used for a pound cast is 2.032". Looks like the cast is showing that I could get away with longer brass (as long as I can cycle it from the tube to the chamber)

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Thanks for the link. No, I've never seen this system before, and think it's an odd way to proceed when a cast of the chamber can more easily be made with cerrosafe. From the photos in the link's thread the result the OP got show a definite throat, so I have to proceed (persist?) with the observation that yours, if a true representation, is missing. The .30-30 jacketed factory loads often use .307 dia. bullets, so it is possible that they would slide into a throatless .310 bore (your groove measurement), but unlikely to do so with a .301 bore (your land measurement). So I'm not sure what's going on here, but recommend a cerrosafe chamber cast for a better picture. It seems to me that in pounding down the lead to the point where it has overflowed the mouth of the case has given you a distorted picture of what's actually there, and that the image of the throat that is probably there was filled by the over compacting of the lead slug. I would abandon the "pound" method and go with the pour chamber cast method. I'll bet you see different results and then we can go from there. Best wishes.

[runfiverun]

your pound looks correct.
now what you need to do is start subtracting.
how thick is your brass?
probably about .010 subtract the .020 from the 334
that leaves 314.
you need about .002 slop for everything to chamber and release the boolit properly.
so that goes to 312.
311-312 in a 310 barrel is perfect.
the nose diameter can't be too big or it won't chamber.
if you really have a 301 there [and you probably do with a 310 bore] then your nose needs to be that big or slightly larger, just enough so it engraves the rifling lightly when you chamber the round.
you can't ram the round home with a lever gun, things have to have some engagement and some slop.

the best way around it is to get a mold close on the nose diameter and play with your alloy for a final diameter fitment, once you have that then try for the main body diameter first 310, then 311, then 312, changing nothing else in the load sequence.

now here is the part you don't want to hear.
it's a levergun.
even with perfect boolit fitment your gonna have other problems.
look at everything from the frame forward.
fitment, rubbing, heat expansion, tension on the mag tube and how it interfaces at the muzzle, tightness of the cap on the fore-arm, etc.

[Outpost75]

Your cast looks like a typical SAAMI .30-30 chamber. http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/30-30%20Winchester.pdf RunFiveRun gave you good info on determining bullet diameter. If you have access to a .30 cal. throating reamer, it wouldn't hurt to reduce the angle at the front of the case mouth and to cut a slight cylindrical ball seat, just enough to accept a .310 front driving band seated out a bit. About 1/16" is enough.

[OnHoPr]

This opinion is even more low tech guessing. I looked through your post and it looks like you are trying to get that gun to shoot. I seen where you did one bore measurement at .309. You use a lubrisizer at what dia are you sizing at. Are you just using BL-C 2. Are you just using the 041 mold. Are you just using irons. Are you letting the barrel cool down after 3 shots. There are a lot of variables to keep 1" groups @ 50 yd for 10 shots. What are your boolits dropping at, maybe you don't need to size, but putting a GC on the 041 would need to be addressed, then a tumble lube or cake lube. All kinds of little things.

[Dimner]

Thanks for the replies so far guys.

I've tried a ton of different things to get this thing running... All kind of tips and tricks to get better accuracy. I should be more clear, I'm looking for a 1" group at 50 yards with 5 shots. Right now it's rare I get it with 3. I did some changes in lube, and using ATF between sessions and changing powders, that gave me the best increase in accuracy I have seen yet. My groups shrunk... I'm now at 2" to 2.5" consistently at 50 yards. What the lube and ATF changes was shrink the far off fliers. But I'm still not at where I need to be. Heck, all I'm asking is a reliable 2 MOA.

So with my 2"-2.5" groups consistently I'm seeing 5 shot patterns where 3 are close to touching and the 2 others are spreading the group out. So with all the stuff I have tried, it's got to be bullet fit. Or.... bullet fit has to be addressed now in earnest and then go back through all the tips and tricks.

I've tried all these things with no significant increase
different weights and brands of factory jacketed ammo
Sierra 125gr jacketed ammo
Lyman 311041, 311672, 311467 ...
CCI vs S&B primers
Neck sizing vs full length sizing
COAL changes
H335, BL-C2, H4895
.311 and .310 sized boolits (note, all three molds had to be beagled considerably to get .311)
4 different kinds of lube
Barrel is always let cool if necessary
Iron sights and Scopes (I gave up on the scope, because I thought that was the problem. If I can get a boolit to fit correctly and shoot consistently, I will revisit mounting a scope for load testing only)

As for the rifle, I have relieved the wood in the forearm so it doesn't pinch anything. The the rest of the rifle is good except the nickel plated forend cap. This pinches the octagon barrel a bit. I would like to relieve this pinching, but not sure how to do that given it's nickel plated. This is not a carbine, so there is no barrel band and the barrel is free to do what it needs to. Looks like this:

177229

And on chamber reaming/tweaking. Should I attempt to play around with a more proper sized boolit first or ream first?

Thanks R5R for the info on what to look at in a boolit for the proper fit. Here are a couple of NOE molds I'm thinking about going with. Any of these to avoid? They are all listed at .311... any chance I can get them to drop at 312?

311-188 30 Hunter
177231

311-175 Saeco #315
177232

311-165-RD
177233

[Digital Dan]

Guess on my part, but maybe you are shooting groups too quickly. Leverguns are the worst about responding to heat induced distortion. Give yourself some time between shots, maybe 5 minutes....at least once, just for comparison.

[gwpercle]

How does it perform with factory ammo. If it groups poorly with factory, it may be the rifle and not the handloads.
Let another person , a known decent shot, shoot some groups. Use standard ammo 150 or 170 grain ammo.
I have a ordinary model 94 carbine, 20 inch round barrel and with a peep sight , Lee 170 grain FP GC , sized .309 (I haven't slugged the barrel) over 7.5 grains Unique, it will group almost all 10 shots within a 2 inch circle... slow fire ,I usually just single load them and take my time.
Hope this helps, good luck finding out what's going on .
Could be you just need a little more practice with it.
Gary

[runfiverun]

NOE's molds all tend to pour about .002 oversized so no worries there.
if I had to pick of the three there I'd take the ranch dog mold.
but would personally prefer it to have larger drive bands and fewer lube grooves [like 1 slightly larger one]

I use the 150gr rcbs super similar to this one.
I have the 041 and have only got it to shoot well over 34-35grs of 4831 in my 30-30's
http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-170A-D.png
Tom can change the diameters on the body to give you the larger 312 diameter you just need to talk to him and he will help you fill out his order form properly.
if you order a +002 mold you'll get a +002 mold even if you order it inadvertently.

[GhostHawk]

Of those 3 I would go with the .311 165 RD lowest picture. The angle it has = less stuff running into the rifling before you want it to. I would set those fairly deep but still in the neck.

I used a bore scope to look at my Win 94ae and it looks like an even sharper corner just past the end of the brass.

I ended up sizing down some .314 90 grain truncated cone TL boolits and set them just before the cone starts. So they slide into and out of the chamber without making contact with the rifling. But as soon as the boolit starts moving forward the base section will be fully engaged.

Larger boolits gave issues chambering unless they were set very short and showed poor groups, more like patterns. The right boolit tighted groups up instantly to 1.5 inches at 50 yards. I have not played with it at longer range.

I may have to do some close looking at .311-.312 molds one of these days.

YMMV

FYI I love the heck out of that 14$ elcheapo ebay bore camera. It shows up stuff like your chamber cast almost instantly. True it is harder to measure.

[scottfire1957]

I always thought the Winchester commemoratives were made for collecting, not actually shooting. Made to look good, not shoot well, though that might be a misconception on my part.

[Tom Myers]

Your chamber appears to be normal for an early Model 94 Winchester

The Precision Cast Bullet Design ~ Advanced (http://www.tmtpages.com/#advanced) and Precision Cast Bullet Design ~ Ultimate (http://www.tmtpages.com/#ultimate) software developed these images of My pre-64 Model 94 chamber, a Hornady cartridge and NOE's 311-180-RF bullet.

The bullet drops from the mold at 0.3115 and, after about 3 weeks, measures 0.3125.

As you can see, when the images are superimposed , the bullet was designed to be nearly an exact fit to the model 94 chamber.

Hope this helps.


http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/30-30%20Chamber/30-30_Win-Chamber.PNG


http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/30-30%20Chamber/30-30_Winchester_Hornady.PNG



http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/30-30%20Chamber/N.O.E._Mold_311-180-FN.PNG


http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/30-30%20Chamber/30-30_Win~Hornady~N.O.E._311-180-FN.PNG

[cainttype]

I'd seriously consider adding the NOE SC 311-165 RF to the mould list you've posted. It has always been a great choice for short throated 30-30s. I use the NOE 311-165 RD in rifles with a more generous throat length, and it has always worked well too.
You would be hard pressed to find a better design than the SC 311-165 RF for moderate velocity hunting loads on deer-sized critters. The large meplat would be my choice if my accuracy loads worked best at slightly reduced velocities.
Both 165s have reliably produced better accuracy than you're seeking through many different '94s. I just choose the mould by the amount of throat available. A mild dose of Unique is pleasant for youngsters and/or plinking, and has always been boringly accurate through multiple rifles. In fact, I've never had a 94 that didn't shoot them well when they matched the throat reasonably close.