Kid with high lead levels.....

[43PU]

I have twins as most people know, they are 15 months old, and we took them to get a check up and i asked them to test our blood lead levels... well one of my sons and me came back negative, but another son came back high where they have to go in a take blood samples. how should i react? as a new normal dad i am freaking out about all of this and blaming myself and our hobby. Good news for you guys. If it is because of casting and shooting, a GREAT flood of casting things are about to hit the market!!!

I have done everything i can think of to make sure the family is safe, i dont reload in the house, i dont cast indoors but outside in the open air, i dont run my tumbler in the house my entire gun work shop and EVERYTHING gun/reloading/casting is done in a DETACHED 3 car garage. After every time i come inside from out there i use the DILLONS de-leading soap and make sure i washing my hands for at lease 30 seconds and then thoroughly wash. I dont shoot around the boys i dont let my lead bullets just lay around the house. Our house is OLD (circa 1920) but we have repainted and everything.. Sorry for the rant im just really REALLY worried right now, Luke has to go get blood drawn tomorrow to do another more detailed test and i am sick to my stomach worried about this..

Prayers are greatly needed..

43PU

P.S he is on my lap now typing this with me

[43PU]

I called the EPA and they will be here on friday to do an examination

[toallmy]

I have a brother that has three children the youngest is a young girl she was found to have a high lead level . Wile the two boys are a few years older and go shooting with their father they were fine , the little girl doesn't go she is 4-5 years old . After the house was checked out lead paint was found on the front porch on the ceiling , that is where the little girl played quite often . Find the contamination and clean it up , this will be a long hard thing to go through . Tend to the little ones , and may God bless your loving family .

[NyFirefighter357]

Lead paint was the cause of a friends child's extremely high lead levels. HE liked to play outside around the foundation of the house and the dirt was contaminated. Also a lot of those cheap toys that have paint on them come from China and also can be found to have high lead levels. This is an article about kids and lead poisoning. http://familydoctor.org/familydoctor/en/kids/home-safety/lead-poisoning-in-children.html

[1988-4551]

Tagged, father of two young girls myself

[bedbugbilly]

Before going off "half-cocked" on anything . . . . check the environment they are in when they play, etc. and see if it is something such as lead based paint, perhaps water contamination, etc. The important thing is that you caught it . . . now do the detective work needed to discover the source . . . then eliminate it. I'm not making "light" of your situation and please don't take it that way. You've taken precautions with your casting, reloading, etc. Everybody, everybody's body chemistry, etc. is different.

What goes on in your area? Manufacturing? Any possibility of ground contamination, etc? Those are the things to look for. Does the one who has high lead levels any more prone to putting things in his mouth than the other? You'll get to the bottom of it. If your house was built in the 20s, it could still be an issue with lead based paint even though you've repainted, etc. What about the plumbing? Any possibility of lead pipes anywhere? The EPA should be able to help you out on all of it and get to the bottom of what is going on.

Best of luck to you - let us know what comes out of the inspection please. You, your family and your kids are in our thoughts and prayers.

[Wayne Smith]

Repainting does not solve the lead paint problem. All they have to do is chew through the top coat. Stripping/scraping is the only way to make sure it's gone. Kids play in the dirt - that is the second most likely source when one member of the family is afffected. Where does she play that the other one doesn't. Do they have separate bedrooms? If it was the plumbing the whole family is likely affected. You need to narrow down to that one child does that the rest of the family doesn't.

[MrWolf]

I would have thought the boys would be together most of the time and would have the same results. With the house being that old, I am with the others in that there is contamination in a spot one of the boys has been playing in. Could one have ingested something and not the other? Good luck and prayers sent.

[lefty o]

most likely bringing it in on your shoes.

[Blackwater]

My understanding of lead is that the only real concern is in handling lead that is covered with a white "rust" that is lead oxide, and that this is rather easily absorbed through the skin by simply handling it without gloves. Lead, it is my understanding, doesn't fume and give off vapors until it reaches about 1,000 degrees farenheit, which is way above casting temps. It is questionable whether any commercial melting pots CAN get lead that high, unless maybe (possibly?) left on for a long time, which we casters can't seem to allow to happen. Mostly, it's hard just to wait for it to melt and come up to casting temp to get started casting.

Also, many very long time casters have had their blood tested, and almost none have shown any high lead levels, and those may be due to handling the white powder covered lead rather than to casting. So, it seems you may have been given good advice about investigating the environment and old toys, rather than just assigning blame to casting. Many have become inordinately afraid of anything with lead in it, and CA has even banned lead containing bullets for hunting in some areas! But ASSUMING it's casting that has done this is simply not logical or appropriate, and you and the family NEED to know what the REAL cause is, and ASAP. Not many have the will to investigate these things, but getting some old toys and having them tested would be a good place to start.

The Chinese really don't care about WHAT they sell to us, or its effects. They only care about the money and knowledge and technology that money they get can purchase from us. It'd be my first suspicion, and my first efforts would be toward that direction, if in fact you have some of those old toys to have tested. Someone here could probably tell you who and how to test them for lead, I think, if you can just find them.

[toallmy]

Cross contamination can carry it through the whole house , you must find the cause of it and remove it , the health department can test the house and help find the problem . It is a battle but you can do it .

[mold maker]

As with anything affecting our children, we tend to panic.
Since it is only one child the source will be easier to trace. It is an activity or object that isn't common to the rest. If the level is extremely high it is likely a recent occurrence, or else something with regular contact, but not common to the rest of the family.
As a caster, you are already aware and cautious or your levels would be high. The precautions you've taken should be adequate.
The problem is likely involving the lead paint from the 1920s home.
Even so, Don't Panic. Removing any and all scaling paint and protecting what's left isn't that hard to do. Finding the problem source is just testing with a kit and following up.
The Drs can treat what is already ingested and you will find the source and eliminate it.

[tiger762]

I would start with a lead test kit from the hardware store.

[Lloyd Smale]

my guess is the people from the epa are going to jump to blame it on casting if its done within 5 miles of the kids. Even if they personaly catch the kids eating paint. To be honest id even worry about them condemning your home.

[Geezer in NH]

Repainting does not solve the lead paint problem. All they have to do is chew through the top coat. Stripping/scraping is the only way to make sure it's gone. Kids play in the dirt - that is the second most likely source when one member of the family is afffected. Where does she play that the other one doesn't. Do they have separate bedrooms? If it was the plumbing the whole family is likely affected. You need to narrow down to that one child does that the rest of the family doesn't.Stripping lead paint has been found to cause high lead levels in the kids. Dr.'s called it Yuppie lead poisoning. The only way I would fix that problem is to replace every thing that has been painted. Usually it is all interior and exterior trim.

It is a pest but it has to be done hope all comes out well.

[osteodoc08]

Repeat the test. I'd have expected them both to be normal or both to be high.

Just repeat the blood work. Lab tests are not infallible.

[Paper Puncher]

Repeat the test. I'd have expected them both to be normal or both to be high.

Just repeat the blood work. Lab tests are not infallible.

At 15 months old I would expect any exposure to be very close to equal for both sons. If the retest comes out and shows one son with high lead levels then I would concentrate on differences between them. Toys? Dishes? Location of bed, playpen? As has been mentioned anything from China has to be considered suspect. One toy may be fine, it's twin painted with lead based paint.

The worst exposure to lead is inhalation. About 97% of any lead dust you inhale goes into the body. When lead is ingested only somewhere between 10% and 70% is absorbed. I worry most about inhalation. Old paint chalks and falls off the exterior of houses and contaminates the soil. Kids play in it and breathe the dust. Window sills and door jams (anywhere there is friction) can turn paint into fine power. Again an inhalation hazard.

In normal casting procedures the lead is contained and not turned into dust. To vaporize lead you need to exceed 1000 deg I think. So bullet casting is pretty safe. Now a caveat, what many here refer to as smelting. Processing range scrap, or other sources of lead. This is the only place I can see where there is a possible chance of generating lead dust. Lead absorption thru the skin is basically non existent when considering bullet casting.

Most shooters biggest exposure to lead is at indoor ranges with insufficient ventilation. Primers contain lead and combustion temp is adequate to create lead vapor. The dust on the floor will contain lead and incompletely burned powder.

Don't panic. Take a logical step by step approach.

[starnbar]

One other area to look at is the kids toys a lot of toys manufactured overseas use lead paint and they aren't always marked as such especially the little cars and wood toys don't forget any teddy bears or for the girls any dolls they use questionable paints on those too.

[43PU]

We went this morning and got a blood sample done vs the blood smeared on a piece of paper. We will find out monday

[RogerDat]

One other area to look at is the kids toys a lot of toys manufactured overseas use lead paint and they aren't always marked as such especially the little cars and wood toys don't forget any teddy bears or for the girls any dolls they use questionable paints on those too.

20/20 or 60 minutes did a special on this very thing. Mother took a lead test "pen" and tested several toys from China, finding lead on at least a few. Prompted network to do testing on more of them and look at the issue in greater depth. Few years back but lead was found on a surprising number of Chinese goods intended for use by or around children. One I recall as most shocking was paint on a sippy cup.

[leadman]

I was an OSHA certified hazardous waste worker during my employ with the City of Phoenix. After I retired I started casting and making lead shot on a large scale. My routine lead test showed I had tripled my lead content so I did some testing. I found the even the lead in the pot at 800 degrees or less migrates from the pot to and area about 15 feet away from it. I made a "casting closet" to suck the fumes away from me while wearing aluminum plates that were cleaned and tested for lead before starting my session of casting and shot making. There was a 20" fan opposite me with the bottom at the top height of the pot, and 2 walls alongside me. The partial wall and the fan received lead in about 1/2 hour. The side walls had some also at the front edges. I received no lead on the plates hanging from my neck but my gloves did. So the lead does move out of the pot during normal use.
Make sure your clothes you cast with are washed apart from the families and it does not hurt to run an empty load after your casting clothes. Change shoes before entering the house and wash your hands.
It is easy to test for lead as most building supply or hardware stores have the kits.
To lower my lead level I followed the Minnesota diet for children exposed to lead and it work well and my lead level was normal in a couple of months.
Prior to my routine test I had a metallic taste in my mouth and the base of my fingernails had turned a slight purple hue. Mine was less than 13ppm.
The EPA used to recommend schools remove asbestos ceiling tiles and lead paint but they found this caused more hazards so now the routine is to cover it over. Your house is probably plaster and lath so it might be better to install drywall over it. I'm sure the EPA will guide you in this.

[Greg S]

I have done alittle lead work as a bridge painter. The worse dose I got was just setting up for a job rubbing my cloths on the sun fadded surfaces which contaminated my clothingfbreathing zone. I'm back down to respectable (normal) levels now.

[NavyVet1959]

With a 1920s house, I would be inclined to think that is where your problem most likely lies.

[tomme boy]

Old water pipes, well water. Old house.

I would not worry too much, what were the #'s? We have a bunch of old lead mines in our area. Seems lots of people here just have a little bit of lead in them. They changed the #'s on what is allowed a few years back. Now anything in your blood flags a responce.

[43PU]

The results came back yesterday. The test came back NEGITIVE!!!! Thanks for all the prayers!!

[Mk42gunner]

Great news. Too bad the first test was wrong and made you (and us) worry about the little guy.

I too wondered about the difference; I cannot imagine fifteen month old twins being far enough apart to account for the differing lead levels of the first test.

Robert

[osteodoc08]

I hate having to repeat tests, I hate even worse, treating needlessly. Glad you got it rechecked and all was good.

[NavyVet1959]

Of course, now you have one test that says you have a problem and another test that says you do not have a problem. Which do you believe? The one that gives you the answer that you *want* to hear? Sounds like the "Sore Loserman" election fiasco -- "Let's keep recounting the votes until we get a number that we *like*..."

If they used the same test both times and got different results, *I* would want to know why the results were different.

[dragon813gt]

If they used the same test both times and got different results, *I* would want to know why the results were different.

Had this happen recently w/ my dog. The test they ran at the vet came back positive for Lyme disease. So off went some blood to a lab for confirmation. Was over a week until I got the results. Found out the lab ran their test six times until it came back positive. I was more inclined to believe my dog didn't have it but still gave him the $$$$$ medication as a precaution. I like spending money for no reason after all. I also don't trust this particular doctor at the vets anymore. Had to take the dog back to draw blood again so they could send it to the lab and find out why the results weren't consistent. This was three months ago and I haven't heard anything :mad:

If this was my kids I would run the test a third time. This way you have the result being the same two separate times. At 50/50 you're flipping the coin.

[43PU]

The first test they poked his finger and smeared blood on a card, the second test they drew blood and sent it back to a lab at UK in kentucky which they said was 99.999% accurate

[B. Lumpkin]

I would consider the 2nd test as conclusive and move on with peace of mind.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Repeat the test. I'd have expected them both to be normal or both to be high.

Just repeat the blood work. Lab tests are not infallible.

What osteodoc08 said.

[Parson]

A question for you more educated engineer types. I started casting before most of you were born, I was concerned about lead contamination but sources like Lyman assured us that there was no contamination from your pots vapors, now it seems there is. Did Lyman lie to us or did they not have good enough test equipment back in those days?

[William Yanda]

Do your twins play together? Separately? Different results for two individuals from the same enviornment raise questions. Do they react differently? Are the results accurate? Having your test agree with the negative twin, I would suspect test results. Have you considered retesting?
Bill

[MrWolf]

Great news! Making mistakes on blood tests happen. I can't give blood ever again because I had a false positive that the Red Cross told me was a mistake as they retested the same blood again. I even had my own doc test and came back negative but the rules are one strike even if it is a mistake.

[dragon813gt]

A question for you more educated engineer types. I started casting before most of you were born, I was concerned about lead contamination but sources like Lyman assured us that there was no contamination from your pots vapors, now it seems there is. Did Lyman lie to us or did they not have good enough test equipment back in those days?

They didn't lie. There is no vapors from your pot. I used to work in an Interstate battery plant all the time. So much so that even though I was an outside contractor I was required to have my blood tested. The PPE for the plant was gloves if you wish. Otherwise it was don't eat, drink or smoke w/out washing your hands first. This plant had molten lead all over the place. There was also an oxide mill on site. Everyone in that plant would have high levels if there were lead vapors in the air. The people that did come up high were the smokers who disregarded the hand washing aspect.

[rosewood]

It may very well have been your child touched or handled something with lead on it before the first lead test. Then when they pricked the finger, the test was skewed. May still want to get lead test kit and check the areas the child frequents just for good measures.

Rosewood

[Mica_Hiebert]

They didn't lie. There is no vapors from your pot. I used to work in an Interstate battery plant all the time. So much so that even though I was an outside contractor I was required to have my blood tested. The PPE for the plant was gloves if you wish. Otherwise it was don't eat, drink or smoke w/out washing your hands first. This plant had molten lead all over the place. There was also an oxide mill on site. Everyone in that plant would have high levels if there were lead vapors in the air. The people that did come up high were the smokers who disregarded the hand washing aspect.


I work in ammunition manufacturing and this is the same where I work. hobby casting and reloading would not give you a very high exposure at all. wash your hands when you get done casting and dont smoke while doing it.

[bedbugbilly]

Parson . . . I wouldn't be worrying about it. I've been casting for 50 + years using a pot on a propane hot plate. My tests have always been just fine and I'll still continue to do it. While I'm not making light of all of this, I sometimes have to wonder about those that get so concerned about it . . . but then have no issues with "smoking tobacco or loco weed", using "snuff" or "drinking" and driving - not that that applies to everyone. If we start worrying about every little thing in life . . . then the enjoyment of it all dwindles down in a hurry. When it comes to children . . . then yea, get to the bottom of it, if the tests are positive, find out what the source is and eliminate it. As pointed out, and I forgot all about this, toys can be a primary source for it if made overseas. But then I used to drink from a garden hose all the time when I was growing up, drank from the same tin cup chained to the hand pump that everybody drank from, walked barefoot through the barnyard, used cow pies for frisbees and road apples for sling shot ammo . . . all activities that would now cause a "hazmat alert".

[leeggen]

My cocern now would be EPA if they come to test your house. They can find things that don't exist. They would be the last one I would call, even in a panic. But that is just me hope you can head them off with the new test results.
CD

[starreloader]

But then I used to drink from a garden hose all the time when I was growing up, drank from the same tin cup chained to the hand pump that everybody drank from, walked barefoot through the barnyard, used cow pies for frisbees and road apples for sling shot ammo . . . all activities that would now cause a "hazmat alert".

bedbugbilly, walking barefooted in the barn yard, drinking from the tin cup chained to the hand pump, throwing cow pies and me and my 4 brothers throwing the road apples and rotten eggs at each other, many times mother would just say "you boys need to go down to the creek".. We knew what she meant.

Have my blood check every 6 months, never had any problems... Been casting and loading almost daily for well onto 45 years.. Always have had good ventilation, kept work area clean, washed hands and face before eating, never smoked while working around the lead..

[shooterg]

Glad it's OK. If it still showed, I'd wondered if the kids were in daycare and the problem might not of been from the home environment.

[NavyVet1959]

Glad it's OK. If it still showed, I'd wondered if the kids were in daycare and the problem might not of been from the home environment.

With an old house like that, I would be more inclined to think that the kid with the high lead levels was just a "paint eater". That is a more common cause than anything else. Young kids -- they see something, they put it in their mouths...

[CraigOK]

Glad he's ok. I think I'd be satisfied with the more scientific second test vs what they did round one. The kids getting exposed to much and having elevated levels scares me and I dont like them messing with fired brass or handling loaded ammo with lead bullets. Mine are old enough they wont stick most things in their mouths though.