The saga of cast boolets in 222 Remington.

[castalott]

My buddy Ray and I decided to try to work up some groups in 222 Remington. He because of his near new but really old Remington 700 Varmint Special that needed to be exercised again. It has had less than 500 jacketed bullets thru it since new many years ago. It was a labor of love with one of his favorite rifles.


I recently bought a CZ 527 in 222 to see if I could make a 22 LR and a 22 Magnum load shoot acceptable for plinking or hunting or just garden duty. This rifle was bought new and has never had a jacketed round thru it.


Both rifles have perfect bores and have never shown signs of leading although the 700 did show some residue from one load coated with Hi Tek. Ray cleaned his rifle after every session but the Cz has never been cleaned at all and shows no need to do so. There may be a few flakes of powder but even those go away with good powder charges.


The 700 sports a 3x9 scope that was probably special way back when but is not so special today. The CZ has a older Weaver T-6 and is crystal clear. A T-10 would be better for groups but we all run what we have. The range we shoot at is 39 yards. It is what we have until a better range is built. This would probably be a long shot for me on squirrels. I am simply not that good of a shot and think more of any animal than to wound it with a bad shot.


We agreed on plain base boolets because we are cheap. If you are going to pay for gas checks, you might as well have quality jacketed bullets. 2 days ago was the fourth session and the groups are improving. Inspect, inspect, inspect and weigh, weigh, weigh are the rules here.


We are using 5 to 8 shot groups now but the final test will be 20 shots on the same point of aim. This will be a real test in my mind. My goal is 20 shots under 1/2 inch outside to outside. Yep... I doubt I get there but that is the goal.


The boolets tested were the NOE 46 grain .228 sized back to .225. ( Al...if you are reading this, please...pretty please..make this mold with the nose the same size and the driving bands at .225. I would buy at least 1 three cavity and probably 2!!) When sized to .225, the nose section is straightened out at .225 and 90% of the boolet is a groove rider. It shoots very well indeed as the coming photos show. The mold itself is a joy to use.


The second boolet is an Arsenal Mold that cast a 40 grain boolet with no lube grooves. It was designed to be Hi Tek coated and I have shot some good groups with it as well. I wanted to see how fast I could go without a gas check and still have acceptable accuracy. It shows promise and testing will continue. This mold is also a joy to use. Who ever said casting 22 boolets is difficult has never got things 'just right'.


One little thought and I'll end this section. We are a couple of old guys and are doing the best we can. You guys that shoot 1/4 inch groups at 900 meters offhand on a foggy night will just have to put up with us......

177080

[Blackwater]

Castalot, there's nothing like striving to reach a goal to get a man to do his best and keep experimenting until he finds the "magic recipe." I'm betting you reach your goal. A buddy of mine has done some mildly extensive testing of cast in his .222/12 ga. combo gun, and he's gotten some rather gratifying results and really hasn't striven as hard as you are to get there. I wanna' see your targets soon!

[MrWolf]

Doing great in my book. Keep it up!

[castalott]

Second installment on the 222 easy pay plan..


Before we get into the groups / loads.... we need a lawyer warning!!


Warning! Don't use the load data you see here. Only use data from established reloading books. This is just presented for entertainment purposes. One should never use data from the internet. Don't do it! Your eyes may cross...or a lot worse!



Ok...here we go...

177113

Ray started at target #9. The very first shot from a clean barrel is indicated and is out of the group. A little work on this and I might be happy. The alloy is pure lead with enough tin to cast ok. They are soft and that is one reason we keep these loads low. ray lubes the boolets with Lee alox thinned with mineral spirits. After dry, he sizes them to .225 in a Lee sizer. Then he lubes the same way again. He says they don't size easy without the lube so he has an extra step.

#8 is a nice group. Hard to beat Bullseye..or Unique for that matter... The chrono was in the sun and no velocities came up. We have them later with the CZ. I believe the CZ has shot this load as well or even better.

#7 is not that bad except for that 11 o'clock flyer. There are 4 in that nice little cluster. I have never been crazy about Unique but it does work! I hinder myself with these loads. I want the lowest pressure possible to deform the boolet the least. But most powders don't burn efficiently until hotter charges. HHmmmm... Maybe I am my own worst enemy....

177115

At the end of the day, we had 3 rounds of this load left and shot a group. I know 3 rounds doesn't show too much but it looks promising. Every group in this section was with the Remy 700..

PS. Both of us think the 3.0 Unique load needs to go up. If I could have a pinpoint load with this boolet at 1450 FPS... well....I would be in Nirvana.

[runfiverun]

or speed up the powder.
step down to green-dot and that 3,0 load would move up in velocity slightly.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP...

The boolets tested were the NOE 46 grain .228 sized back to .225. ( Al...if you are reading this, please...pretty please..make this mold with the nose the same size and the driving bands at .225. I would buy at least 1 three cavity and probably 2!!) When sized to .225, the nose section is straightened out at .225 and 90% of the boolet is a groove rider. It shoots very well indeed as the coming photos show. The mold itself is a joy to use.
castalott,
could you expand a little more on this thought.
Was this a 228 mold? or a 225 mold that casts fat?
what do you mean by the nose 'straightened out" ?

Is your mold the NOE 225-45-WFN ? (Mine casts at .227)
If so, it should have a nose near .219 when this one was in the early stages of the first group buy, the nose was originally going to be even smaller (.216), I suggested the .219 number and Al went with it.

[runfiverun]

same diameter I went with in the HM-2 mold.
it sloped down from 219 to 218 [right in front of the drive band] then tapered off from there.
that is a bit more critical diameter than the body itself, most 22 cal rifles will easily chamber a 227 boolit seated out to engage the ball seat area.

[castalott]

Hi Jon

I guess it is the 45 WFN .228 mold. I've called it 46 grain forever... It actually weighs 48 with my alloy and scales...

I miked a few bullets and the driving bands run .2285 to .229. Just in front of the front driving band it mikes .219. But when I size it...

177208

I must honestly tell you I had to size 'this' boolet .224 to get the effect to show clearly in the photo.

The grease groove is smaller which I think means some of the metal was formed into it. The nose in front of the driving band is now smooth sided and the same diameter as the driving bands.

Have I answered your question? I'll try again if not....

I am not disparaging Al or his work. Quite the opposite really as I think the world of several of his molds and this happens to be one of them.




Well, I think I have changed my mind..

For the way I load and the alloys I use, I would like this mold to drop .226 on the driving bands and go (when sized) .225 1/2 the way up the nose. I have this thing about an unsupported nose in the bore, I guess...

Dale

[castalott]

Another short installment...

Usual warning- get load data from established sources... Do Not use this data ...

177226

Cz rifle with NOE boolet.. Shows promise... I think I'll try 3.2 and 3.5 of Unique. The green Dot idea ( and Blue Dot too) sounds interesting....


177228

4 groups on the above.... 3 left groups is custom 40 grain boolet

to the left is 3.1 of 700x at 1590FPS... A little faster or slower might improve things...

Middle is 5.6 of trail Boss at 1975 FPS. If it didn't have the 2 flyers at 11 O'clock, that might be good enough for my 50 yard garden load. Almost 2000 FPS with a plain base boolet. I had to shoot a bad groundhog at about 20 yards with a load very similar to this. It was instant DRT....

Up at #2 , we have 9.0 grains of reloader 7 for 1690 FPS.

Over to #6 we go back to the NOE boolet and 2.5 of Unique. If I was a better reloader, this boolet might shoot into 1 hole at that distance...

Don't forget...get your data from loading manuals

Dale

[Blackwater]

That's some mighty good and promising initial results! I'm betting you'll have some one-holers before long! You're doing your homework, and when you finally get it all wrung out, I feel sorry for the pesky critters in your neck of the woods! Your results with that PB bullet were of particular interest to me. Thanks for the great report and info.

[runfiverun]

try another primer with the 700-x.
that horizontal stringing is almost text book ignition inconsistency.
it's not the powder needing a fix there it's the priming.

[castalott]

try another primer with the 700-x.
that horizontal stringing is almost text book ignition inconsistency.
it's not the powder needing a fix there it's the priming.

I've always used Winchester small pistol primers. What would you recommend? I do have some CCi in a small stash...


Or a magnum primer?

Thanks, Dale

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Hi Jon

I guess it is the 45 WFN .228 mold. I've called it 46 grain forever... It actually weighs 48 with my alloy and scales...

I miked a few bullets and the driving bands run .2285 to .229. Just in front of the front driving band it mikes .219. But when I size it...

177208

I must honestly tell you I had to size 'this' boolet .224 to get the effect to show clearly in the photo.

The grease groove is smaller which I think means some of the metal was formed into it. The nose in front of the driving band is now smooth sided and the same diameter as the driving bands.

Have I answered your question? I'll try again if not....

I am not disparaging Al or his work. Quite the opposite really as I think the world of several of his molds and this happens to be one of them.

Well, I think I have changed my mind..

For the way I load and the alloys I use, I would like this mold to drop .226 on the driving bands and go (when sized) .225 1/2 the way up the nose. I have this thing about an unsupported nose in the bore, I guess...

Dale
Dale,
OK, I understand now. I don't have any advice good or bad, I just didn't exactly understand what you meant by nose 'straightened out"...and wanted to understand. Thanks for taking the time to post the explanation and photo.

[castalott]

My pleasure Jon.... And I would always be interested in better ways to do things....

Thanks, Dale

[richhodg66]

I've had real good success with that NOE bullet in .22 Hornet. It's a real killer on squirrels at .2 LR and slower velocities.

I recently got a .222 and have gone a different route, I wanted a gas checked load with a hollow pointed 225415. Not getting the accuracy at 100 yards I want yet, but I'll keep working on it.

[MT Gianni]

As you approach 22 lr velocities try duplicating the hardness of the 22 lr rounds.It works for the cartridge at that velocity.

[runfiverun]

try the cci's.
you could also use a small pistol primer with the 700-x.
I have switched to pistol primers when using the faster powders and sometimes had to up the load a little to get things back up to speed [plus a little extra in the accuracy dept.]
if the pressures are below the 35-40K area [my personal maximum] I have no problem using a pistol primer safely.

[castalott]

Oooppss.... delete..

[castalott]

Two more pictures & then we'll have to shoot some more (drat!) to have more pictures..

usual warning... Don't use this load data!

177260


This is all self explanatory...

I will add an interesting note... Once I had the scope set and the groups printed below the square, the first shot usually touched the 'number'. The group may get bigger but that first shot was right there....

177261

Above is the Remy 700...


Richhodg66... I would love to know more... You take mostly head shots? Or chest? The squirrels are DRT? What kind of damage?

Thanks in advance. Dale

[castalott]

I removed my joke about Nagasaki. Ray said it was wrong...and Ray is very often right. So I apologize if I offended anyone.

Dale

[castalott]

Jared at 'Arsenal' is going to draw up a boolet like the sized one but with the un-sized boolet's lube groove on it. As of now, we are shooting for a diameter of .225. Looks like about 1/2 the nose will be groove diameter. I would like everyone's opinion here.

I suspect this design will have much in common with a wad-cutter gyroscopically and aerodynamically. Will it be limited to a short range, low velocity (22LR) life?

Hhmm... I might give up 75 yards to have a 'bug hole shooter' at 50.....


I didn't realize shooting these needle-blasters could get in your blood...

[runfiverun]

hopefully the front half :lol:
the saeco 60 gr boolit is a good one to steal ideas from.
when I drew up the HM-2 I basically mated the rcbs 55 and the saeco 60 to come up with the starting shape then put in the measurements and shapes I mentioned earlier.

[castalott]

How do I do a pdf so it can be seen here?

Jared has 2 drawings & I was curious what you guys thought...

[runfiverun]

you basically just have to do an upload as a pdf [attachment] then we click on it to open it.

[Jhess]

Castalott(s) requested design

[runfiverun]

thank's JHess.
I like the overall shape but that front drive band area is your critical area.
it needs to mimic the throat angles a bit better.
sloping in from 225ish to 219ish at about a 30* angle would help everything [drive bands] snuggle right up to the end of the ball seat area and still allow the nose to settle into the rifling.
I know the 222 has a ton of neck to work with and your boolit is taking advantage of that pretty well.
you just need to match the rifles angles a bit better in that one area.
that will allow you to get away with a softer alloy which will work better at the lower velocity's.

[castalott]

Well, actually I am to blame for the nose shape. I'm sorry but I really don't understand what you were trying to tell Jared. Would you try again for this simple country boy. Thanks, runfiverun!

Oh, Thanks Jared!

Dale

[castalott]

I've been thinking about it ( whew!) .... The nose as designed won't self align in the bore? You are saying there needs to be an angled step down to groove diameter ( actually .220 or so) so the nose will align on top of the grooves? This will put the outside diameter (.225) up next to the forcing cone ( not a revolver but this is the only way I know to describe it)?

So you would load it ( OAL) so the nose section engraved- centering the boolet?

I'm not arguing ... I'm asking to learn...

Am I understanding this correctly?


Thanks, Dale

[runfiverun]

that's a great nose shape for a lever gun.

what I'm talking about is avoiding the harsh 90* angle and sloping the drive band towards the nose.
http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-165A-D.png

this one is cut for the 308, you can see how the front drive band angles inwards and allows everything to snuggle up against the end of the ball seat area.
scroll down to the chamber picture and you'll see how the front drive band of the boolit mimics that angle.
http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/308%20Winchester.pdf

someone drew up the 165-A for their Armalite AR-30 in 308 and pushes ww alloy to 2400 fps without any drama.
I use a slow powder for a gentle launch and the boolit takes care of it's own alignment.
actually helps pull the case into the centerline of the barrel by using the drive band diameter and the nose diameter to align everything at the front.
the closer to the centerline of the barrel you can get the boolit to start with the less damage you do to it under acceleration and the more accuracy you'll garner from it.

anyway when you hear someone say fitment it doesn't mean cram an oversized boolit in there and hope for the best.
compare those 2 pictures and you'll see what fitment truly is.
now that I brought up fitment there are 2 types.
mechanical and static.
mechanical is the close fit before the boolit is fired.
static is the boolit either maintaining that shape to the muzzle or it actually slumping rearwards unevenly=bad
evenly=good.
pre-slumping the design to combat that happening is best, that allows you to ride out the mechanical fitment and accelerate the boolit with minimal damage and what damage does occur doesn't affect the balance of the boolit once it's free of the barrel.

I hope all of this is making sense to you.

[runfiverun]

remember we are talking bolt action or single shot rifles here.
a semi-auto is another discussion because the two systems work differently.
and a boolit that relies only on mechanical fitment will also have a different shape and a different alloy requirement since it is spending all it's time fighting the slump affect.

[castalott]

I did plan to use soft lead ( pure with enough tin to cast...) with these loads. I wanted ( and have gotten) expansion. I also wanted this to be a load at 22 LR speed. It wouldn't bother me if it would work great to 1500 FPS or so.... I was hoping the big meplat and soft lead would be great in the field or on garden patrol.

I am still working on understanding exactly what you are telling me. Give me a little while...

Thanks, Dale

You were talking of lever guns, I have a friend actively pursuing a 218 Bee.... maybe this design would be good for it?

[runfiverun]

I'd have to look at it's throat design.

now don't get me wrong here.
your design is still feasible but you almost have to do a mock up of how your nose is going to interface with your throat.[at least a drawing on paper]
that will help you see what your dealing with.
if you had a short 5.56 type throat and the base of the boolit was still in the case mouth at the time of initial contact I think your design would work very well.

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/222%20Remington.pdf

here is your 222 Remington
you have that quick 45* angle right in front of the case mouth
and then a 3* leade in angle.
with a 219 diameter groove.
so a 219 nose section that angles back towards the drive band at 3* then an angled front half of the front drive band that mimics that 45* angle would nestle right in the throat.
even if that was set back near the case mouth and was run up into the barrel it all would help pull the boolit into the barrel when it got there.
instead of it looking for the barrel at whatever angle it happened to be heading towards it, it would just align with it by using the drive band and the nose as a guide.
basically take the 165-A above and cut it off at the back of the front long drive band and then chop the nose off about 1/8th" in front of the drive band and roll it off with like a 2-3R or a tangent angled nose into the meplat.
that would give you a good idea of what your looking at.

[castalott]

I've been thinking about this... This boolet isn't just for one cartridge but many...including a 218 Bee. Which lube groove would you recommend and why? I have even considered no lube groove... I sure like the way they fall out of the mold and simple inspection... I can tell you HiTek doesn't lead so far...

Dale

[runfiverun]

I like one single strong squareish lube groove.
the more lead you have taking the rifling the better.
slope the band angles into the groove at about 30-35* and it will drop free.
it will also hold soft or hard lube better.

isn't this designing stuff fun?
you have to take into account what the boolit could be used for so you have to look at many different pictures and try to account for the throat condition of them too.
then the neck length of the case comes into play, add in a short case neck and you have to move the lube grooves placement.
throw in a gas check shank.
then your COG is too far forward so you move the nose back.
pretty soon you got the rcbs 0-55s when you started with a blunt nosed lever gun boolit for your 357.

[castalott]

My style is more "blunder into" than "design"...LOL

Important question... What length boolet would be the best for my velocity range of 1000 FPS to 1600 FPS or ,if lucky, maybe a little more? My 222 has 1 in 14 twist but I don't know about the others.... ( Would I be better with a shorter (35 gr) version or a longer ( 50 gr) version?)


Thanks Again, Dale

[runfiverun]

shorter will do better.
40-45grs should do okay, but I would err on the lighter/shorter side and go with 35-40grs.
you can knock some of that base drive band length off, shorten up the lube groove, and back up the nose to just kind of compact everything.
I'd start with the nose to keep the weight to the rear.
and you can always wet up a lube a bit or add some tumble lube to get it down the barrel easy enough.

[castalott]

Finally got back to this... I've cast up several of 3 designs...all in WW..

Noe 46 WFN .228

185094


Arsenal Custom 40 grain .225

185095

Arsenal 225-61 'Elvis'

185096

[castalott]

Sizing base first or nose first can make a difference...

185097



185098


185099

[castalott]

Of course the bottom one above has 4 extra thin coats of HiTek... I knew this mold was .228 when I ordered it... I'm asking a lot of it and it still is doing good!

This is the first time I've used straight wheel weights in as long time. I like it! All these molds cast very nice!

[Blackwater]

The possibility of using a centerfire instead of a .22 LR is intriguing to me. When you can get up to 3500 loads from 1 lb. of powder, that should be interesting to a lot of us here. 2 gr. loads in small cases make for some very interesting possibilities and shooting. I've been considering building something on a small action in a CF caliber with very small capacity for just that purpose. Haven't pulled the trigger on it yet, but .... ya' never know. And I really like to know where I'm most likely going, and have some assurance of success, before I go putting money into a unique rifle only I would likely appreciate. You've really got me hyped up for it again. Thanks!

[runfiverun]

you don't need a fancy caliber for this stuff.
the 222 and 223 case will handle slow or fast really easily.

castalott:
do you think Jared could cut that 40gr boolit with a lube groove?
and at 225-6?
I'm looking for a project to get me going with Hi-Tek, and this would be perfect in my 223 V/T.
I could make and coat and plunk 100yd targets, it would also allow me some freedom of use in the field too.

[castalott]

I would guess that Jared could do anything... He pretty well reads minds... I just ordered an 8mm mold that is exactly what you are talking about...lube groove and all..


i have a picture but don't know how to send it from my email to here...


Send Jared an email.... He seems a friendly but very busy type...

Dale

[runfiverun]

thank's Dale.
I should still have his E-mail.

[castalott]

185135

A comparison of the boolets to try so far... I expect the 61 grain one is too long to work in my 1 in 14 twist.... but you never know until you try... If it would run 2 moa out to 200 yards at 1800 fps...well... I'd be tickled

[castalott]

...and to bore you with one more picture.... a comparison of the meplats

185136

The WFN I wanted to use as my garden patrol load. I originally cast them soft for use at 22 velocity. These I cast of WW and "I hope" will shoot at 1500-1800 fps... and I also "hope" the big meplat will make humane kills. I see this as strictly a short range boolet....

Dale

[w30wcf]

castalott,
Nice work! :-D Thank you for sharing.
Question? Will the as cast .228" bullet fit into an as fired case neck with a bit of resistance? If so, you might want to try that to see how that works.

Some years ago I shot some Lyman 225438's and NEI 45 gr bullets in ww alloy in a .22 Hornet with 2.2/231 which, as I recall, produced around 1,300 f.p.s. I shot them without gas checks and at 50 yards, they would shoot into 1/2" pretty consistently. Fun! Fun! Fun!

w30wcf

[runfiverun]

actually that would be really nice.
I had a 7 mauser set up like that.
just poke out the primer and load the case, it never went through a sizing step.
I probably loaded those same 50 cases 30-40 times before the wife got bored with the rifle and swapped it for a 30-06.
bent me all sorts of out of shape.

I know the 22-250 and 220 swift rifles I have here will accept a 227 boolit without too much drama.
I see a little scuffing on the boolit in the ball seat area at that diameter but would have no problem shooting them at that size.

[castalott]

howdy w30wcf !

I just tried the unsized .228 WFN in 5 fired cases (Don't know if fired in my CZ or Ray's 700) but none would fit.

The 40 grain boolet unsized and coated unsized is a easy/good fit...

The 61 grain boolet unsized 'wants' to start but won't go in...


well...the limiting factor here is my shooting ability...old eyes you know :roll:

I have had more fun with this than anything else in a long time. I'm not broke but it appeals to the frugal side of me. 20 pounds of lead seems to last a long time casting...

And just as an aside comment... My NOE WFN mold has now made 2000 bullets ( looks brand new yet).... 2000 jacketed bullets would be about $240 to my door..... These molds are making me money.... That's what I tell myself anyway...

Thank You for your Comments and Interest...

Dale

[castalott]

runfiverun.. What kind of load did you use with the 7mm Mauser?


I don't think my CZ has a throat.... LOL

I have even thought about a bullet with a band on it. You know... a band that sticks out where the case mouth is. That would only give 1 seating depth but the base was a snug fit in the fired case and the band stopped it going any deeper... That load could be used in the magazine and make it up the feeding ramp with no problems... Is this called a 'German" bullet design?
Can't remember..


I would send a few fired cases and some of my alloy to the mold maker... Let him decide the diameter of the base and the diameter of the band.

Is this a crazy idea or what?

Dale

[w30wcf]

Dale,
Nope not a crazy idea at all. Some of the early Ideal .30 Caliber plain base bullets had an oversized forward band to act as a "stop". Kind of a long heeled type bullet so to speak.....although the heel was at least the diameter of the groove. The question is though, did the oversized band cause any issues(?)

Perhaps if you were to size the base of the bullet to .225" and leave the forward portion .228"..........

I know what you mean about aging eyes. Scopes do help!

2000 bullets...you've been busy! Yes, those molds are making you money.....

w30wcf

[runfiverun]

I had 2 good loads.
16grs of 2400 and 24grs of imr 4895.
it didn't seem to care if I used the rcbs 145gr or the 168gr version.
I think the 145 was a bit more accurate overall.
it was one of the best small game rifles ever with the 24gr load and a small flat filed on the 145's nose.
rabbit's, rock chuck's, a couple of fox, and a yote all went down to that load.
[with it's 139gr jacketed load it was a great little deer rifle too]

the was a synthetic stocked and blued Charles Daley, but didn't have the huge throat many of the 7mm have, it was more like a smaller version of a newer rifles 308 throat.
I was [and am] still on the lookout for the older lyman mold that NOE makes now,
since my Ackley rifle has the same throat.

[castalott]

Here are a few rejects in casting with Arsenal 225-61- Elvis coated with powder coat. They were stuck nose first in aluminium foil and coated with a gun. I don't seem to be too good at this...

I took 3 PC boolets and added them to my HiTek routine thinking I could tell them from the plain ones...Nope... They were covered too well...

Somehow I think PC and then 3 coats of HiTek would make a very durable coating.

185224

[castalott]

Remember : Don't use my load data- use a loading manual...
I tried 2 loads late this evening. First 17 rounds of Arsenal 61 gr 'Elvis'

This is my first outing with this boolet for group...

186905

That is 17 rounds at 39 yards. The bags on the bench were slick for this and I actually think this group is twice what it should be. 1 and 1/8 inches is the measurement at 39 yards. i also expect this to be smaller at more velocity. I'll go up 1/2 grain for the next test.
(ooppss- the mold is Arsenal, not Accurate...Sorry)
186906

Success! 5 rounds NOE 46 gr WFN- WW with 4 thin coats of HiTek sized .225 in Lee die. I added some cloth to the bags to make them less slick and 'tighter' for the rifle to sit in. Both groups were CZ 527 Lux and Weaver K12. This group is less than 3/8 inch center to center. Aiming point is extreme lower left corner of black square.

I couldn't shoot anymore after these 5. I have 13 left for Ray to try in his HB 700 222 Rremington.

WW metal shoots better than the 50/50 pure/ WW mix I was using. I doubt these will expand at this velocity but I will test them later.

Oh... Both of these loads were Lee neck sized just enough to hold the boolet. The bore looks new except for the last 1/2 inch at the muzzle. It looks mildly leaded. A gray wash ... maybe thicker than a wash...

[castalott]

186910

This looks worse than it is. I have wondered about a coat of 45-45-10 just to help with sealing the bore and/or keeping the bore clean. Won't know until tried.... I'll probably try these boolets with just the BLL too... That would be wonderful if all I had to do was size and lube with BLL....

Edited to add; These boolets were not weighed. Visually inspected only.

[35remington]

The guys at the CBA forum who shoot .22s in matches are of the firm opinion that .225" is undersized and in the vicinity of .227" gives better results. So don't opine that .225" is unquestionably "best" for what you are doing until you try alternatives and know for sure. A .228" bullet as cast may not be the mistake you think it is.

If accuracy is your concern try something other than a fixation on fast pistol/shotgun powders. Try 4227, 2400, 4759 or something similar at around 1400 fps or a bit slower which should still suit your plainbase bullets.

[castalott]

That sounds good to me. If I could just Bll as cast boolets (and they fit in the gun).....Woo Hoo!

[runfiverun]

2 coats of the BLL might do what you want if you apply them fairly thin.
I have made some concoctions for lubes and have been amazed at some of the things that work.
bees wax and cooked off jpw [1-3] made a nice wax coating quite similar to the one on 22lr. ammo.
it also was the pre-runner to 45/45 lube.

[castalott]

Updates... A paper patch removed all the "leading" ( 95% on the first push thru) . The patch was black just like the HiTek so I think that was all it was.

The CZ must have a tight neck. The unsized Noe 45 gr ( I'm making an effort to not call it 46 gr) won't go into a fired 222 case. I was considering turning the necks of a few but IF this load continues to perform, I have my garden patrol load.

[castalott]

Shot 2 more groups today but my computer all of a sudden won't recognize my sd card so no pictures...hmmmm

here is the best group..
6 shots Arsenal 61 gr 'Elvis' WW with 4 thin coats of HiTek sized .225. 4 in one little hole (5/16 outside to outside) with 2 touching but stringing toward 11 o'clock ( total group is .75 outside to outside). load was 5.5 grains Unique...Est. 1700 fps.... Very good... will go up another .5 grains.


This Arsenal 61 grain Elvis bullet is going to shoot!

[castalott]

ok...pictures are working...
Don't use this load data...use book data...

First is the 61 grain 'Elvis" boolet.

187358

The next group is my custom arsenal 40 grain boolet. There were several operator errors here. These boolets are so short that I couldn't seat then to the right length with my seater die. But the neck fit was so bad that the rifle pushed them deeper into the case when chambered. I was really rushing this last group and just made a mess of it. I already have decent groups with this at almost 2000 fps so I assume it will shoot about as good as the others. I wish I would have ordered this mold another .002 bigger... Maybe change alloys to help that...
187359187360

The last picture is the NOE 45 grain boolet ( and load above) fired into milk jugs of water at 25 yards. It expanded out nice but all this proves is it is rough on milk jugs. I don't know if it would expand like this in a garden pest. And yes, that is WW that expanded like that. I did not expect that.

That boolet just barely got into the 3rd jug. The jacketed round is Greg's 17 HMR fired at 10 yards. That is the 20 grain 'hunting ' load and it made it to the 3rd jug.. That works nice in water too.

The bore of the CZ looks new... All these groups were fired with the set trigger.

[castalott]

Another thought. That 61 grain boolet in my 1 in 14 twist was stable in the last load...the holes show it. Go up to the other load at a lower velocity and the holes show yaw. Will this boolet shoot at higher velocities? Hope so..we'll see.
187379

and another view of the expansion..

[castalott]

A funny request... I don't have a google account. The 61 grain boolet was designed by a guy who has a Utube channel elvis ammo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM6lXdRiepk

If someone would let him know about this effort....


Thank You, Dale

[castalott]

More testing... These groups not so good and probably all my fault . Bad cold and bad bench technique...

Use book data..not mine

187611

187612

these two photos are the same load. I shot 4 and thought my bench technique was off. So I shot 5 more at the second target. If I had shot all 9 at the same target it would have looked better.

This is the Accurate 61 grain 'Elvis' boolet of WW sized .225 after 4 thin coats of HiTek. 6 grains of Unique for estimated 1775 fps. This is not a varmint boolet but more of a long range plinker to me. I did shoot this boolet in water filled milk jugs at 25 yards. Straight hole in the front side of #1, moderate tumbling as it entered back of #1 and start of #2. Severe tumbling at back of #2 and start of #3. The boolet was completely sideways here. It changed directions and exited down and to the right of the flight path. So penetration was 2.5-3 jugs (however you want to figure that) and then exit.

If you put the 2 groups together, the group would have been ~7/8 inch with a flyer off the the left in the white. The next warm day shooting some loads will be chronographed.

Should these boolets be heat treated? Will the baking at 450 degrees nullify the heat treatment? Could one dump the 450 degree boolets in cold water and kind of heat treat after the last Hi Tek coating? Anyone know?


187613

This last picture is the Accurate 40 grain I designed. The scope showed off on the target when the extreme left and the extreme right holes appeared in the target. I felt awful and my bag technique was worse. Take out the 2 obvious 'goof up' shots and the group is ~3/4 inch. This boolet begs to be shot into milk jugs. No idea what it would do but it might be nasty.

We'll go on up in velocity until groups just fall apart or leading begins. Several more powders beg to be tried.. 700x is one of them...

last note... These bullets are just visually inspected..no weighing. The loads are thrown with a Lyman powder measure...again no weighing.

[Blackwater]

Thanks, Castalot. You've nearly got me sold on getting a CZ 527 in the Hornet now! You're costing me money, but hey! I forgive you! ;)

[castalott]

I look forward to you doing this with the Hornet. I almost bought a Hornet as it is a cool case but then again I've heard bad stories about making them shoot.

Just remember these groups are at 39 yards... So not as impressive as you would think. But that one load with the 46 gr NOE boolet will take squirrels all day at that distance.

This frugal shooting shows my Scottish blood , I guess. 10 pounds of metal makes a lot of boolets , at least compared to 405 gr 45/70 slugs.

I'm still on the original 50 rounds of brass. How long will it last?

Oh... One last thought..Buy that Hornet & I'll send you a handful of the 40 grainers to try in it.

Are you starting to weaken yet?

Dale

[castalott]

I got out to chronograph some loads today. It was really cold and someone else's chrono but here goes.....


Arsenal 40 grain with 6 grains of Unique I estimated 2000 fps was 2121 fps....

The Noe 46 WFN with 5.0 grains Unique I estimated 1750 fps was 1593 fps...

The Arsenal 61 gr 'Elvis' with 6 grains Unique I estimated 2000 fps was 1775 fps...

I might repeat this in warmer weather to see what happens....

I don't seem to be very good at estimating velocities....

Dale

[runfiverun]

Dale I think OSOK [Charlie] knows elvisammo [or at least knows how to contact him]
he sent him some boolits to test for the hollow point thread, and elvisammo done a video ballistic gel test of them on the U-tube.

[castalott]

Cool.... I'll send him a PM...Thanks!

[castalott]

A rethink of the 40 grain Arsenal boolet:

187729

I have covered the extreme left and extreme right impacts with a quarter to show what I think the group should be. I am sure my bench technique suffered to make at least these two hits outside of normal.

So 7 shots under an inch at 2100 fps. If I could get that down to 10 or 20 shots under 1/2 inch at that distance, I would have my garden pest load. I did shoot this load into a row of water jugs at 25 yards and must say it was not impressive. The first jug puffed a little and the slug exited left of the next jugs.

I'll repeat the test, maybe tomorrow. I am considering making a tool to put a 'dimple' on the nose to help expansion if tomorrow fails. I want a 'lights out' load for these pests. The NOE 45 WFN boolet that shoots so good would be a squirrel load deluxe but more 'zing' is needed for the heavier pests.

I've got Nosler 50 grainers on hand that should work just fine. But that's not teaching me anything about boolets.... They are not something I can make if supply goes crazy either....


Dale

[castalott]

And just for fun I covered those 7 shots with a quarter


187731

[TCFAN]

[QUOTE=castalott;3946623]
I am considering making a tool to put a 'dimple' on the nose to help expansion if tomorrow fails. I want a 'lights out' load for these pests. The NOE 45 WFN boolet that shoots so good would be a squirrel load deluxe but more 'zing' is needed for the heavier pests.


That NOE 45gr.WFN kills pretty good just the way it is.I have used it as my main boolit for my 218 Bee using 11.5 grs. of IMR 4198. I don't know for sure what the velocity is but I would guess it is 2000 or a little less.I have killed all of the common yard varmints around the house as far as 15 to 75 yards or so. Every one that has been shot has been a one shot kill. These include possum,coon,armadillo,groundhog,skunk, and lots of squirrels both grey and fox that keep getting in my apple trees.Altogether maybe 30 or 35 animals just this past summer.I have been very impressed with this boolit. No trouble hitting golf balls at 100 yards from my bench rest...............Terry

[castalott]

That's interesting. What alloy, hardness, lube, and size did you work with? I would guess that is a loud report too....

In short, tell me everything... "Your tale, Sir, would cure deafness!" (William Shakespeare)

[runfiverun]

Dale I think I'm seeing a little tipping there.
it might just be a soft backer board or something else. [like maybe the boolit hasn't settled down just yet]
but the holes look to be just a touch off.

[castalott]

I have to angle the backer to the gun just a little to get the sun on it. The truncated cone doesn't cut clear holes either. I do see a couple that might be as you describe. I've looked really close and I just don't know.

Dale

[TCFAN]

That's interesting. What alloy, hardness, lube, and size did you work with? I would guess that is a loud report too....

In short, tell me everything... "Your tale, Sir, would cure deafness!" (William Shakespeare)


I cast for the 218 Bee using ACWW sized .225 with BAC lube and Hornady or Gator gas checks.The report is loud enough that I use ear protection when target shooting. Just to go out and shoot one shot or so the report does not bother me at all.But I do turn my hearing aids off..............Terry

[castalott]

One shot today of the Arsenal 40 gr custom into water jugs at about 10 yards. This is the WW load that chronos 2100fps with 4 thin coats of HiTek.

187814




187815


This WW boolet weighs 38.4 uncoated , 38.8 coated, and the recovered boolet weighs 36.4 grains.

Impact didn't seem impressive and it made it into the 2nd jug.

[castalott]

I ran some more of the 40 grain bullets (38 gr actually) with 6 gr Unique over 2 chronos at a time...today was a lot warmer... Average = 2157 FPS.

[runfiverun]

that mushroom looks impressive.
I think you have a winner in that arsenal mold.

[35remington]

Try any 2400 or similar powder yet?

[castalott]

I am in over my head. Having a wonderfully accurate rifle and 3 top notch molds helps a lot. My skill and experience are the limiting factor here. I sincerely thank everyone for their help. ( Please continue!)

The 22 replacement effort has evolved into a 3 prong study. I want performance bullets on game at 3 levels- 22 velocity, something approaching 22 mag power, and the best that can be done for a powerful all purpose varmint load- all plain base. All of these loads must have an expanding/ fragmenting bullet. These bullets may be limited to 100 yards effective range ( if that). My shooting skills in the real world would likely limit shots to less than 50 yards...maybe a lot less!

The idea of a 200 yard plinking load with a bullet of better BC seems doable too. I doubt this effort has an end soon although I may drift off to another caliber that needs attention...

Unique powder has been the main one so far. Yes. More powders need to be tried. 2400 and red dot lead the long list. More alloys need tried too.

I am not on the leading edge of this effort but the trailing. No doubt a thousand shooters on this site have already accomplished my goals and moved on. In fact, many of my ideas come from others who have paved the road for me.

My only claim to fame is a good camera, some modest shutterbug skills from the 70s, and a place to post the efforts. I am hoping others share their results. It seems the Australians are ahead of the curve on this and we can't have that. ( Just kidding- I love the Australians!)

So I see this effort as a place to talk to friends I've never met...develop things I've only dreamed of...and share the joy of experimenting and learning something new and useful...

Dale

[Blackwater]

This is some very good work, Castalot. I've been wanting/thinking about making up a small caliber that I can load and shoot cheaper than .22 LR's currently go for. You've made me wonder if I might not be able to do that with a larger case than I'd anticipated now. And we gun nuts are never so pleased as when we're totally perplexed as to what to do or build next, so ..... THANKS! You've made my plan just that much more complex, and I now have more basis for my vascillating! :-) As with the old saying, I'm "happy as a dead pig in the sunshine!"

[Oklahoma Rebel]

yup, I look forward to hearing more of...The Saga Of Cast Boolits In 222 Remington!

[runfiverun]

here is how I approach workups like your doing.
I start with the fastest powder and get my best from it.
then I move to the next slowest powder using my ending data and move ahead and continue on down the line.
in the 45 colt and 44 mag [24" lever guns] I have concurrent data starting with clay's and moving all the way up to 1600 fps with 2400.
I have tested data for them using bulls-eye, clay's, 700-x, red-dot, green-dot, titegroup, unique, herco, sr-4756, 800-x, steel, AA#-9, AA-4100, and 2400. [plus 1-2 more I'm forgetting]
all of the data is with 165gr RNFP's, 200swc's both at the lower speeds, 225 RNFP's, and 250gr RNFP's in the 45.
and 200-240-240-240-250-255gr boolits in the 44. [yes I marked 240gr three times, I used 2 plain base RNFP molds and a gas checked SWC type]

[castalott]

A little bit of fun before I start the day....

1 pound of WW = 7000 grains

divide that by 39 grains for each boolet = 179 boolets for each pound

1 pound costing o.25 divided 179 boolets = .0014 each or ~7 for a penny

1 pound costing about $1.25 divided by 179 = .006 each or ~1.5 for a penny

20 pounds (pot full) of metal = 20 times 179 = 3580 boolets

3500 Nosler dogtown bullets @ 0.13 each ( not counting delivery) = $465.40

I've finally found a job where I can make $500.00 a day and work from home! WooHoo!

[runfiverun]

dang! I was gonna sit and stuff envelopes.
but saving 500$ a day not doing that would make me rich in a hurry.

[castalott]

Another quick day at the range....

That arsenal load at 2150 fps was tested into water

Tested it today at 39 yards...

188169

188170

It's difficult to tell them apart....

Tested the 61 grain load over the chrono with 6.7 grains of Unique...1773 and 1761 FPS...the other 2 were error...

Remember to use book loads...not mine...

[Blackwater]

Castalot, this has been a VERY interesting thread! You've now got me wondering if I really want to get a smaller case to duplicate everything from .22 pellet guns to .22 mag. and maybe Hornet level performance. We gun nuts are never so "happy" as when we're totally wrapped up in the question "what's the next caliber I want to try, and why?" I'm near ready to just get a .222 and be done with it. It'd be so much easier, and maybe even a little less espensive! Figuring out the next move will always be a poser, I guess?

[castalott]

I was surprised that the expansion was nearly the same for 10 and 39 yards. If all I wanted was a short range hunting load, the 45 NOE WFN bullet would be my choice. If I wanted the varmint hot rod bullet, the Arsenal 40 grain ( Actually weighs 38 something in WW) at .226 (or .227) would be my choice. I ordered mine at .224 and it was exactly that with the mystery metal I had on hand.

I have a theory that the lead the lands displace has to go somewhere and the diameter of the bullet swells to fill the bore. Nothing more than a theory now...just guessing.. The coating adds a little but not much.

I haven't got the pin point loads with the 40 grainer yet but I do think they are doable. I've got to redo my bench set up. I hate to buy a machine rest but testing will never be uniform until I do.

The best reloader/shooter/caster I ever knew pulled his hair out back in the 90s trying to get a Hornet to shoot cast. He had a couple of the Lyman 2 cavity molds and ran straight Lino with GCs. What he could do one day couldn't be repeated the next. But he got killed before he gave completely gave up 10 years later.

Like you, I wanted a Hornet. Or maybe a 222... Ray asked me which won the most bench rest competitions and that decided it for me. Having cast rifle bullets forever but never 22s, I knew the Hornet would work but the 222 would be easier.

If I ever get this 22 stuff figured out I may still have a Hornet. There is a mystic about it... the tiny cartridge with the big punch and the low cost to feed. The days of the shooters in the Depression using it because it worked...and cheaply too!

The next thing to try for 22 replacement will be a Marlin 32-20. There are several molds available with hollow points to try. Seems a waste of lead if this 222 will do good....

Dale

[Blackwater]

Yes, the little Hornet CAN vary widely, but from what I've read by fellows who were in a position to know and measure stuff, it's the chamber dimensions that often at lest, contribute to the Hornet's variable results. I keep thinking of a shortened version of the K-Hornet, with @ 1.000" shortened case length, and decently long neck for the Lyman 225415. That's as heavy a bullet as I'd want to use in it. I'd likely go with a 14" twist, though 16" would likely be enough. 224" groove dia. barrel. My little Rem. 580 action keeps crying out for me to do something with it. I think it's starting to hate me. Have had it a very long time, bought it with a broken stock, and need to do SOMETHING with it. Had thought about getting a slow twist barrel and making it into a .22 Short single shot for squirrel and bullfrogs, but now that .22's of ANY kind and especially Shorts are so hard to come by, and so "spendy" (IMO) when you DO find them, I'm leaning more and more to a more versatile centerfire, that will barely sip at lead and powder.

So your work with the .222 has really intrigued me, and made me have to think very hard about what I THINK I want. Love those little CZ 527's, too. Not sure which version I want. those "perch belly" Euro styled stocks look a bit "strange" to me, but every one I've ever shouldered fit me VERY well. I'm a chronic vascillator in matters like these, so it's nothing new to me to find myself in a quandry about what to do next. Your thread here has me really re-thinking .... AGAIN .... what I think I want. And the .222 would definitely spike the top end, if I ever wanted/needed to use that facility. It'd take a bit more powder in a .222 to get the same velocity as might be obtained in a smaller case, and the smaller case would have the advantage of higher powder density, which tends to aid uniform ignition, but ..... your .222 has surely shown some very neat capabilities, and offers more top end as well. That ain't a bad place to be!

And BTW, a friend of mine's grandkids started out hunting deer with a .22 Hornet, and they were both really good shots. They never lost a deer, and used their little Hornet to take close to 20 now, I believe it is. The older one has moved up to a .243 because she's fully capable of taking a deer at well over 300 yds. She's proven it on targets. They've begun using the all copper Barnes HP's, and they've been opeing up nicely at the under 100 yd. ranges they've shot them at. All heart/lung shots, and most DRT, and none went further than 40 yds. after being hit with that little Hornet. Folks think it takes SO much to kill a deer, but it really doesn't, IF you use a bullet that will reliably reach the vitals, upsets rapidly, and is placed right. Most folks have a hard time getting to a range TO practice, and often rely on the Tim the Toolman's "MORE POWER" theory, but it never seems to work out well. The ONLY way to learn to shoot, is to shoot. Very simple. But for those who can't or don't have time to shoot enough, they could at least practice letting the hammer drop without the crosshairs moving at home, even on the kitchen table. This would help them place their bullets SO much!

Every night hunter I ever talked with used .22's, as much because of the noise factor (and not wanting to be caught) as for their effectiveness. The ones who could shoot, and place their bullets well, always ate a lot of venison. So all these guys who use a .300 mag. to hunt deer kind'a make me wince. I don't enjoy recoil as much as I once truly did. Made me feel like I was shooting a REAL gun. Now? I'm a lot less appreciative of recoil. That also adds to my desire for a neat, quiet little round that I can plink around with without concern about getting more ammo, and that I can reload and experiment with at various velocity levels, and just play around with just for the heck of it.

You've really got me revamping and reconsidering my options! Thanks!

[castalott]

Ray will be over Sunday for a day of shooting...look for a bunch of pictures next week...

Ray had to cancel...his wife had some trouble & she comes first..as it should be....Get well soon, Mrs Ray!!!

[P Flados]

Ok castalott (and all of you others cheering him on), now you have gone and done it. That long unused 10" octgon 222 contender barrel just got put on the list for a new mold (or two, or three).

I have been playing with "22 LR" replacement stuff in 30 & 32 cal. The "new technology" of BLL for mild and PC for wild has made lube grooves "not required". Without lube grooves, a wannabe metal worker like me can dabble in mold making. Current results include:

188382188383188384

I got started cutting a cavity today. I will post more photos after I make a some more progress.

[castalott]

Cool! Welcome to the madness...

Dale

[castalott]

P Flados... Here are a few of the bullets I have to play with....time is the short part.188477

Some of these are from the reject pile...

188478

If I ever get time and the energy...and get the 222 project finished...

[runfiverun]

I'm sure the statute of limitations has run out on this so I can tell just how little it takes to kill a deer.

my best friend growing up drew a Bull ELK tag in south central Utah and he knew if he got one he would need help getting it out.
so he gives me a call and say's we are going elk hunting.
I had no tag but I did have a pellet rifle for grouse hunting so away we went.
we got into the edge of a good clearing and was watching some elk feed towards us through the trees.
when suddenly a group of deer come trotting up through the clearing about 20yds away going right past us and were heading towards the Elk.
Wes say's they are gonna spook them Elk.
I said no i'll turn them, and took aim at the ribs of the front Doe with the pump up pellet rifle..
pop.
jump and drop.
and she rolls over 4 feet in the air dead.
oh jezus, now what do we do.

this is the same pellet rifle I used when we used to run around and shoot each other with them in the park at night.

[P Flados]

Here is my new toy. The front cavity is a 110 grn for my 327, the back cavity turned out to be 46 grs with a diameter of 0.226 min, 0.2275 max (I do not expect any problems from the slight egg shape).

188479

Ok, turns out a new boolit was just the start of what I needed to work on.

First off I do not have a working sizer die. Fat was ok by me until I tried to test seat a bullet. First attempt was with about half of the full diameter portion out of the case. Slap it in the barrely and no-go.

Took a boolet and drove it part way into the rifling and then pushed it back out. Turns out this barrel was one of the contender barrels made in the day when TC was willing to put out sad excuses for chambers. The portion of the chamber in front of the neck had a square edged transition to a very short region of leade (no throat to speak of). The boolit I drove half way in was clearly shaving lead at the squared off edge.

Took a piece of 1/4 diameter aluminum rod, beveled the end at say 20° made a bushing to run it through, and started lapping the square edge away. Kept working at it until a boolit driven half into the rifling would smoothly size itself down and engage the rifling.

Back to test seating. With the full diameter portion of the booit half in the neck, the case was still an 1/8" away from seating. As I tried to seat it deeper, the amount of force was very high. Pull the case out of the die and the neck was collapsed.

Time to make a custom expander rod. Took a 1/4" steel rod, worked 1.5" down to 3/16", threaded this portion to 10-32, swapped it around and made a very long straight taper expander region starting at 0.220" going up to 0.250". Tried it and it worked great. With the neck just opened up to get the bullets started, it seats with a nice light but reasonable amount of force. I adjusted the seating die so that the bootil lightly engraves into the bevel I lapped into the chamber.

Then I mounted a scope on the barrel and put the barrel on a gun. I now have gun, boolit and loading gear ready to go.

188481

I am waiting on the BLL to dry before I load up my first batch.

I only have a couple of dozen 222, so I tried converting 223 (I have a gallon or so once fired range pickup with no gun in 223). One pass in the 222 sizer did not even come close to working. I tryied to cobble together a series of step down sizers. No luck yet. Will keep trying.

[castalott]

Wow... I was trying to size the bullet to fit the chamber...You are sizing the chamber to fit the bullet. I have often considered machining a 'leade' into the rifling just as you describe.

Also, with this 'leade' you are well on your way IF you wanted to pre-seat a bullet in the rifling and add a powdered case behind it. A brass punch machined to fit the bullet base on one end with an adjustable stop on the other to engage the barrel end would work with a plastic hammer. I would think such a system would shoot wonderfully.

I cannot recommend the Lyman M die in 22 highly enough. Every bullet so far is perfectly guided into the case. And held straight and true. If you have copied it, I commend you.

This going to get interesting fast....

Dale

[w30wcf]

castalott,
As Blackwater said.... "A very interesting thread".
Yes indeed! Nice bullet expansion pics! Back when I was more actively playing with cast in the .22 Hornet I worked with different alloys and found that, interestingly, Lyman 225438 & NEI 45 bullets in air cooled w.w. with 2% tin added (14BHN) shot very well at 2,600 f.p.s. with good accuracy. The low .13 sectional density of the 45 gr. bullets made that possible. (Harder bullets shot no better.)

Later on I decided to see how fast softer 20/1 lead/tin (9 BHN) bullets could be pushed and still retain accuracy....surprisingly....almost 2,400 f.p.s. I shot a few groundhogs with those and they put the "lights out" pretty quickly with center mass shots.

I have a pic of the expanded 225415 20/1 bullet here someplace. As I recall, at approx., 2200 f.p.s. impact velocity , the bullet was almost completely flat with the base of the bullet pretty much flush with the back. No wonder it was so terminally effective!

Found the pic
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/2254155.jpg

Eventually, I wanted to try some softer 50/1 lead tin bullets which would be the approx. hardness of .22 l. r. bullets (5.5 bhn) to see what velocity could be achieved with those, but I got onto other things and never did try that experiment. My thought was if 2000 f.p.s. could be achieved with accuracy (1800 f.p.s. impact), perhaps bullet expansion would be as great as the 20/1 at the higher velocity....

w30wcf

[castalott]

w30wcf just proved my point. I knew there were many who have already figured this out. He did it back in 1992! We do have a different technology available to us today with the wondrous mold makers and the no lube groove needed lubes/coatings. Don't forget the Web where we can share what we learn and learn as we share.

And the idea that P Flados can modify a chamber leade to be cast friendly is simply amazing. I have often wondered if the chamber throat should be a mirror image bullet profile. He can now test this concept for us all.....

[runfiverun]

a mirror image is the way to go.
most of the cast boolit bench rest guy's have bump dies.
these bump dies are cut with the throat reamer right after the chamber throat is cut.
so they cast to near throat shape, weight sort, then swage to final shape before loading.

[castalott]

Oh... A thought that eludes me at times... These groups improved using the Lee neck sizer. I used to think " That's just silly." But it wasn't the use of the Lee die that was silly. It was me!

I have several 22 LR rifles that shoot wonderful. But I'm thinking this 222 will outshoot them all and with more power and range.

That remains to be seen... testing will continue...


Several posts back, Jared drew a .225 bullet that lingers in my mind. A goal is to have a bullet that requires no sizing.... As soon as I get back to work I'll probably have to have one. Who knew shooting these 'needle blasters' would be so much fun...

[P Flados]

Wow... I was trying to size the bullet to fit the chamber...You are sizing the chamber to fit the bullet.

Dale

Not quite. The chamber adjustment was actually just me trying to make "the best of a bad situation" with my limited tooling. A good chamber will have at least some throat. Mine has none. With the "as found" chamber, any amount of bullet over say 0.2245" would have just shaved off. My bullet fit is still on the fat side (probably bigger than I need) but now there should be no shaving.

Even though my chamber may not be "ideal" by normal standards, I like the way the marks look on a chambered round when I pull it back out. The boolit is not touching any rifling, but a little bit of the the taper on the boolit is mating with the lapped in taper at the end of the chamber.

I am getting some amount of sizing (mostly about a 0.0005" reduction across where the boolit is biggest) of my medium soft boolits during seating in the case. After I give "as cast" an honest chance, I will probably try to fab up something to do some test runs for bullets sized down some. This will be a low (time only) investment to see if some other diameter works better.

I did get 15 rounds loaded. Boolit seating was light, smooth and generally felt great. I used 3.2 grns of Promo (Red Dot equivalent). This is about as low as I can go before I start worrying about poor metering from my measure. It has worked pretty good for me in other "pop gun" loads. Before next weekend, I need to figure out what to put in the other half of my brass. My Titegroup would be the obvious choice, I just do not "feel" that it will do any better at this point.

[w30wcf]

P Flados,
Thank you for the update. I hope your testing goes well.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thought I would post a pic of the .22 Cast bullets I have known.....

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/22bulletlineup.jpg

w30wcf

[castalott]

Which of those bullets shot the best? If I was to guess just on groove riding diameter vs length, I would say 225415 old style and 225462... If the diameters were correct, the RCBS 55 might work also...

How far was I off?

Dale

[runfiverun]

I have run the RCBS 55gr boolit up towards 2800 fps.
their 45 would do well also.

[castalott]

I have run the RCBS 55gr boolit up towards 2800 fps.
their 45 would do well also.

Do you remember group size?

[runfiverun]

under 2" at 100 in the regular 9 twist AR's.
the heavy barrel 8 twist done better.
the Ruger Varmint done around 3/4-1" at 100 but shot well enough for ground squirrel hunting.
the same 223 load [22.5 grs of IMR-4895] done well in the 22-250 and 220 swift also.
I burnished the nose section in my mold right in front of the drive band and got it to 219 and the drive bands pour to just over 225.

[w30wcf]

Which of those bullets shot the best? If I was to guess just on groove riding diameter vs length, I would say 225415 old style and 225462... If the diameters were correct, the RCBS 55 might work also...

How far was I off?
Dale

Dale,
Yes the old style 225215 (51 grs.) was the heaviest bullet that shot well in the Hornet. The heavier ones were too long to fully stabilize in the slow twist. The NEI and 225438 shot very well at also. The RCBS bullets were given me from a friend to try but the bases weren't the greatest.


w30wcf

[P Flados]

Well, I am giving up in trying to get 222 cast flat side plinkers to work in my 10" contender barrel.

I tried various diameters (0.224, 0.226 & 0.228 as cast), a couple of powders & numerous charge levels. I started with a 46 grn, made a second cavity to drop a short 25 grn and reworked the 25 grn to drop 29 grn. All with similar bad (5 - 15 moa from 5 shots) results.

I was real hopefull when I started given how easy it had been to get a good 30 Herrett plinking load from a short little 55 grn flat side.

Today I shot a couple of 222 loads with my 29 grn flat side boolits. More than 1.5 inch of spread at 30 ft. Then I swapped over to the 30 Herrett with a 2x scope and put 3 in one little ragged hole:smile: Then I swapped scopes (all of the 222s had been with my 4x) and fired one more > 1.5 inch spead group from the 222.

[racepres]

And My Old Octagon Contender 222 works real well with a 60 gr pointed gas checked Boolit.
Sorry don't know the Mold, as I bought these..I put them over about 6 gr of Unique and have a Blast with it.
Rather mild load that shoots nice for me. if I need more A$$...I have a 221 Fireball, or if I really wanna shake the Bushes...the 22-250...but, I shoot the 222 much more!!!


Edit; looking at the pic from w30wcf, I would say I am shooting the RCBS 55...HTH

[castalott]

Sorry to get to this late..... remember to use book data..not mine...

We had a another test session but it didn't go so well... I'll only show the best such as they are...

191018

Ray shooting his rem 700 HB Varmint Special.. 45 gr NOE WFN with Lee tumble lube sized .225. Powder was 3.0 gr Unique. It was less than an inch outside to outside but not as good as some....

191020

Ray with 700 again. 45 gr NOE coated with 4 very thin coats of Hi Tek sized .225. 6.0 grains Unique. Throw out the far right hole and there are 8 in just over an inch & 1/8th outside to outside.


191021

This was my CZ Lux with NOE 45 WFN sized .225 & tumble lubed. Powder was 5.0 Unique.

The group is a wild 2 & 5/8ths inch horizontal spread. Strange, the outside ones printed first and then the holes started snuggling up into the black square.

I am beginning to think it takes 5 or more rounds to condition the bore for a real group test...

[castalott]

Winter is coming on and I will have time to play with this again. I hope you all are as excited as I am... Dale

[wmitty]

Yes sir; it's time to get back to working on these loads!

[arlon]

Castalott, thanks for the effort on this thread. I have 3 .222s, early Ruger #1, Remington 722 and a 10" Contender. I have not tried cast in them but do have a few molds in .22 (Lyman 225438 and 225450). I'm getting inspired to play with them and cast bullets.

[castalott]

I'm glad to return...This has been the most fun shooting in years... And I am trying to make something useful and frugal... appeals to my % of Scottish blood!

But I must admit I am not very good at this... hasn't stopped me yet!

Dale

[castalott]

Too much work this winter...Hope to start soon

I ordered this..

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=24_513&products_id=4628&osCsid=080n46p33gg0021ovfsj4h9k30

and I can't get it to load...I am so helpless with a computer...

Anyway it looks like someone really thinks like I do. ( That should scare the daylights out of them.) I hope this slug is really what I want....

Al called me today ( Sunday) because I had messed the order up and he needed some clarification. He caught me in a deep nap and I was confused... I'm sure he thinks I am an idiot and he may be right.


Thank You, Al, for fixing my mess up!

[wmitty]

Looking forward to seeing your progress with this boolit...

[castalott]

Ok...Got the mold today and cast some.....

213668


I see at least one that should not have made it thru inspection. These were cast of 50/50 WW/ pure and weighed 53.0 to 53.5. I know some of the variance is the 'whiskers' from pressure casting. I washed this mold 3 times with my special soap and water but still had one cavity with a blemish on the nose. Finally the pot temp was set to"High' and boolets were produced....

The boolets were pretty round ( only .005 from round). I do wish my rifle was not 'tight' necked. If I can load these as cast ( just TL'd) and they shoot....well...happy dance!


Oh...my alloy, my mike, my technique... I could be off as much as 1/2 inch...lol....

[castalott]

better pics....

213669


and another...

213670



sized ....

213671


note damage to base when sized nose first...

[castalott]

another pic...

213672

Note the flaired base as the bottom boolet was drove into the muzzle... You can see the rifling marks on the nose. This boolet should stay straight in the bore if I can chamber it...

[castalott]

Remember you can click on these pictures for a larger view....

213673

This is a closer view of the damaged base...

This is a little better view of the sides after sizing to .225

213674


edited to add...sized in Lee push thru dies...

[castalott]

And the last pik to bore you with. The top 2 grooves appear to be crimping grooves. I have no idea if I would want to crimp this but it is nice to have an option. Even a very gentle crimp would hold this boolet in place...


213675


Ok....all we need now is time...

[castalott]

and here is a .224 sized dummy round showing rifling marks on the nose...

213678

[castalott]

213679

Here is an unsized (.225) that has been chambered...note the rifling marks and the portion of the nose that is sized to barrel groove diameter. man this rifle has a tight throat... I wish Uncle Larry was still dogging....It would go with him for a good hard week....

[castalott]

Ok...

Shot some groups with the new boolit and it shoots awful so far. Probably my fault as I was out of 45/45/10 and made a small amount "on the fly". I'm sure I had too much floor wax and too little alox. This was the only load that ever really leaded. But I will try again.

But some good that day too. I used 2400 powder to load some Sierra 40 gr bullets at about 2000 fps. This load shot into a 30 caliber hole at 39 yards. this rifle will shoot!

So I was thinking... I have some truncated cone 22 cast bullets that weigh 40 grains.... let's load some and try those too...

It was almost dark when I got to my friend's place. He had some orange 'clay birds' set from 50 to about 90 yards. From just a table ( no bench set up) all misses were my fault. I got to shooting pieces of birds at 90 and hitting pretty good. This was the cast boolits- not the jacketed...

Someone told me 2400 powder a few pages back...when will I learn to listen?

I wish I had ordered that mold at .226 or .227 instead of .224...

If work ever slows down ( they are working me to death...) I'll have more time.... This is getting fun now....

Dale

[castalott]

And now another installment of our fun...

remember to get your data from a real loading manual...we are not responsible for errors or goof ups...

First picture is the 4 boolets we use.

220559


40 grain Arsenal, 45 grain NOE, 52 grain NOE, and the 61 grain Arsenal 'Elvis'

Some in this picture are sized and some are unsized. We are mostly concerned with the 52 grain NOE. These were cast of WW and air cooled. The only load I tried this time was 8 grains of 2400 powder and it shot horrible. "Too fast" Ray says. He's right too. This is my CZ...

220560

Everything about me says this boolet will shoot. Next time I'll try 50/50 at about the speed of sound. Hopefully higher even....

Ray shot 2 groups with the NOE 45 WFN and his 700 Varmint Special ...

220561

220562

[castalott]

I'm not sure either of us were 'on our game'.

My rifle leaded horribly with the loads I had. ( Some 62 grainers loaded too hot also.) Each time Sierra 40 grainers were used to clean the lead out.

220563

The very first shot from a leaded barrel is marked. The 2nd shot is toward the middle of the square and then the next 4 printed to the left. This load needs chronographed and tested in water jugs...

Ray brought some Barnes 'Varminator' loads that we tried on both rifles

the 700

220564


and the CZ

220565

[castalott]

maybe we will get our act together and do better...

Remember to NOT use our data...use a real loading manual....

Until next time.... Dale

[GBCAPT]

I bought the NOE 225-45-WFB for use in my CZ-527 22 Hornet. However I haven't been able to get good castings from the mold yet. Wrinkled bolts with several different lead combinations after repeated mold cleaning. Best so far have been with reclaimed shot with 4% tin added run very hot, but still more wrinkles than desired.

Any thoughts or suggestions about improving the quality out of this mold?

[castalott]

I run my mold fast and hot...it makes 3 perfect boolets each time ( see the picture a few posts back)... Even though it is a 22, it may be the best mold I have...

You might try running the sprue plate loose. I do this and the sprue plate is so loose that gravity spins it around. The plate being so loose allows air to escape the mold so the cavities fill readily.

Do you have the LUX version? I really like that rifle...


edited to add....

I don't know where my manners were but welcome to the madness!... I am very curious to see how your Hornet shoots. I don't need another cartridge but wow the Hornet is interesting....

Dale

[boman250]

Wow, I just finished this thread! I love the devotion over the time. I would love to be able to say "yes, I reload 22. Just not the rimfire type"

My humble contribution is about my 22 TCM rifle and a 37g NOE mould I got.

The TCM is great for the 22LR equivalent. As of right now, I have 2 loads. 2.4g of unique gives me about 1200 fps out of my rifle and about 950 fps out of the pistol.

This thread has inspired me to finish the stock and take that rifle back out for some groups!

And Castalott, if you would like to try my 37g .225" Powder coated bullets, let me know. I would love to see what you CZ would make of them!

[castalott]

Hi boman 250! Why yes, I would like that. I'll PM you... Dale

[castalott]

boman 250 sent some samples...
220911


It is the red one..the others you know...I will try to shoot some in the next few weeks... It looks good and hopefully will shoot well....

I hope boman 250 will post to tell us about the mold and boolets...

[boman250]

boman 250 sent some samples...
220911


It is the red one..the others you know...I will try to shoot some in the next few weeks... It looks good and hopefully will shoot well....

I hope boman 250 will post to tell us about the mold and boolets...

Glad they showed up.
They are from an NOE mould. 37gr. Nothing special but they work good in my TCM.

http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,2298.0.html

[castalott]

Who made the powder coat and how did you do it? They look really good....

[boman250]

Who made the powder coat and how did you do it? They look really good....

It is harbor freight red. I powdercoated them. I believe they have 2 coats.

[Blackwater]

Castalot, I have to thank you once again for this thread. I've been wanting to build/buy some sort of CF .22 that I could cast for, preferably all the way from .22 short level up to varminator velocities (bobcat, coyote, etc.). You've reawakened my idea of a 5.7x28 on that little Rem. 580 action again. I have a hard time pulling the trigger on projects like these when I already have a number in the works in an on-going development stage. I don't know whether to thank you or curse you, but being a genuine bona-fide "gun nut," I can only thank you. I need some impetus to actually pull the trigger on projects like these. So .... THANKS!

[castalott]

Hi Blackwater! I'm talking a little bit thru my hat ( local saying meaning I have no idea what I'm talking about) but I've heard the 5.7 is hard to reload.... Just heard it ,mind you...

Anyway...glad to see you posting again...

If I could sway you any... buy a 1 in 9 223 so I could send some of those 61 grainers... Get the right twist and they might shoot real well about 1400 to 1500 fps...

Dale

[castalott]

double post- I used to know how to type on the computer....;-)

[boman250]

Castalot, I have to thank you once again for this thread. I've been wanting to build/buy some sort of CF .22 that I could cast for, preferably all the way from .22 short level up to varminator velocities (bobcat, coyote, etc.). You've reawakened my idea of a 5.7x28 on that little Rem. 580 action again. I have a hard time pulling the trigger on projects like these when I already have a number in the works in an on-going development stage. I don't know whether to thank you or curse you, but being a genuine bona-fide "gun nut," I can only thank you. I need some impetus to actually pull the trigger on projects like these. So .... THANKS!

I actually looked hard at a 5.7. Ended up with the 22 TCM because it came in a 1911, which I like a lot, and brass can be fairly easily made from 556 brass. I make mine from 556 blanks I got for free.

And like castalott says, I hear the 5.7 can be a real pain to reload and you don't get many firings from a case before it splits.

[castalott]

here is the 37 NOE loaded...

220976

You can see the imprint of the rifling on the boolet...

[boman250]

Very wide ogive on them. I seat them just a touch from the lands on my TCM.

They look good in the 222, I hope they shoot well!

[boman250]

The bullets you sent just arrived today! Thank you.

My TCM rifle is still in pieces but I am putting the pressure on the GF to finish drawing on the stock so I can get it back together soon so I can test these guys.

[castalott]

Glad they got there ok. One small sample was lubed, I think. The rest you can do your magic with the powder coat...


Good Luck... Dale

[GBCAPT]

Hello castalott, re: post 129

Thanks for your advice! I spent the morning yesterday working with the NOE 222-45-WFB i mentioned - deliberately stair stepping up the mold preheated temp and the pot temperature after lightening up the sprue tension as you mentioned. I finally hit a sweet spot and got a run of good boolits! You were so right about running hot and fast!

I plan to weight sort after evening farm chores, but things are definitely looking up after following your advice!

And yes my CZ is an older Lux version (bavarian style beechwood stock), CZ-USA modified bolt handle, topped with low WARNE mounts holding an older Leupold 3X9 AO Compact scope. It shoots better than I can shoot it. Consistent nickel sized groups at 100 yds on a calm morning with Sierra Hornet .223 40 grain jacketed over Lil Gun. Groups go over a quarter size with the Sierra .224 bullet.

Thanks again!

[GBCAPT]

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I did get the batch of boolits weight sorted. Rejected any that had wrinkles or seriously rounded heels without weighing. the final tally is:

45.5 gr 14.9%
45.6 gr 41.6%
45.7 gr 19.3%
45.8 gr 14.9%
45.9 gr 09.3%

My thought now is to batch the 45.7/45.8/45.9 as "A" grade and use the 45.6 gr batch as "B" grade, rejecting the 45.5 grainers entirely.

[castalott]

No hijack at all... maybe all of us together can get this figured out....

You will love that 45 WFN NOE boolit... It is not a speed demon but boy does it shoot....

[castalott]

GBCAPT... I am curious.... Are you trying to replace the 22 lr? Or just wanting a load to shoot economically in the CZ? I know I tripped and fell into the 'dark side of the farce'[smilie=1: and now like doing this just because I like doing it...

Your weight variations are better than mine. I suppose I would put the .6 and the .7 together (assuming no visual defects at all) and use the others for plinking/expansion/penetration testing.

One last question. Is your CZ Hornet a .223 bore? If so, I would send a few 40 gr Arsenal boolits for you to try. I foolishly ordered the mold too small and the boolits fall out at exactly .224 as I ordered. This mold might shine in your rifle...

Dale

[GBCAPT]

Good evening Castalott,
good question re: my intention for the CZ - I just want a good all around shooter load. accuracy trumps speed for me in this rifle. Since I am now fully retired, and winters are long here in central Michigan, I have more time to "roll my own" so to speak, and need the mental exercise too.

Still have not mastered casting with this mold, but learn a bit more with every casting session. For instance the batch I cast this A.M. all cast about .2 grains lighter on average than those I previously cast - kept some of the 45.6 s but rejected far more in the 45.2 gr range due to rounded heels.

My hornet is the .223 bore. So far I haven't fired any of these boolits and am researching load data for powder selections before committing to the loading bench to work out best sizing/primer & seating depth. I am thinking perhaps Trailboss for starters, but have Red Dot, IMR 4227, 5774, RL-7, 2400 and Lil-Gun unhand too!

Thanks for the offer re: the 40 gr Arsenal, but I will pass for now. I am too easily distracted and better off limiting the number of bifurcations in my path until I fully explore this branch.

Thanks for your info and assistance!

[GBCAPT]

for Castalott:

Loaded 18 rds 225-45-WFN sized .224 and lubed with 45/45/10 for the hornet over 2.5 gr Trail Boss - 6 each with CCI small pistol Mag/Winchester small pistol/Magtech 7 1/2 small rifle - and proceeded to the range.

50 yd positions were occupied so I went to 25, which was vacant. Weather was near perfect - minimal breeze coming straight down the range and good sunlight, high 60's temp.

Don't seem to be able to upload jpeg of target, but the results were eyeopening.

The STDDEV of the 6 shot groups were as follows: primer - X/Y StdDev - Comment
CCI small pistol mag - 0.12" X - 0.14" Y - (group with centers all in a .24 X.28 inch oval - nearly round)
Winchester SP - 0.52" X 0.50" Y - (group with all centers in a 1.04" X 1.0" oval - nearly round, but 3X plus size of above)
Magtech 7 1/2 small rifle - 0.23" X 0.30" Y - (group with all centers in a 0.43" X 0.60" oval - twice the size as top group)

Three sets of 6 shots are too small a sample tp prove anything, but it suggests a trend that Trail Boss may perform better with a hotter primer. The bullet perforations looked as though there may be some YAW present too.

Next rung on the ladder is to increase charge weight slightly ( 0.1 gr) and reshoot. Will probably stay at 25 yds for comparison sake.

Stay tuned!

[boman250]

Got a few TCM loaded with castalott's bullets. Here is a pic of the 38g on the right (weighed in at 38.5g after PC) next to my 37g bullets on the left.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/129859/37774-570925.JPG

And, to cap off the night, I loaded 2 dummy rounds of a couple other bullets sent. The 62g on the left and the 48g on the right.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/129859/37777-570927.JPG

I don't think the 1 in 16 twist will stabilize either of the heavier boolets but I will try first with the 48g after I am done with the 38g which I am certain will do fine.

EDIT:
Shot the 38gr bullets today. Found a good node at 2.6 to 3 grains of unique under them. Not MOA, but my 22 LR isn't either.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/129859/37862-571682.JPG

[GBCAPT]

223097

This is my best to date 10 shots ( two five shot groups on yellow hole punch reinforcing rings). The one "flyer between the bottom set and the dime is me getting too friendly too fast with that CZ set trigger!

More to come after a couple of weeks away to WA state to visit daughters family.

Oh and I forgot to acknowledge that this is a 25 yd distance, but I am beginning to sense that " minute of squirrel" is just around the corner!

[boman250]

I had a chance to shoot the 48gr bullet castalott sent me in my 22 TCM the other day. They were just on the outside of being stable. Slightly elongated holes at 1340 FPS. But even then, accuarcy wasnt horrible, about 1" group at 50 yards.

[castalott]

i am bumping this old thread to the top as we need to restart our testing. I still have about 8 weeks to finish moving and get settled in and then the fun begins!

I will miss those that have past on in this thread.... Smiles and good thoughts to friends I've never met.... dale

[boman250]

Good to see this thread again. I need to cast up some more of those little bullets and try again now that I moved and have my own private back yard range.