What Can I do to Raise P.O.I.?

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I have been reloading for 8 years now and am a bit embarrassed that I am just now asking this question. Is there anything I can do to raise the point of impact on my lever guns?

Up until recently all my load development has been with handguns and scoped bolt action rifles. With handguns I know heavy and slow boolits tend to impact higher than light and fast ones. With scoped rifles I never cared where impact was, because as soon as I found a load that grouped well I could simply adjust my scope.

Lately, I have been having fun with a number of lever actions with traditional buckhorn and semi-buckhorn style sights. For some reason the way my eyes line up the sights (I use a 6 o'clock hold on the bulls-eye) I always seem to hit low. 357mag carbine (Browning 92 with 22" barrel) at 50yards, and 45-70 rifle (Browning 1886 with 26" barrel) at 100yards. My 357 load is a 147gr cast HP with 14.0gr of 2400. The front sight is already very short, and the rear sight is already as high as it can go. The loads just barely hit the bottom of a clay pigeon at 50yards My 45-70 load is a 405gr cast HB with 39.0gr of RX7. Again very short front sight and fully elevated rear sight, loads impact the bottom portion of a 6" target at 100yards.

Ideally I would like to get both rifles to impact at least 4" higher at their respective ranges. Both my loads are fairly middle of the road; both in boolit weight and velocity. Again my experience with handguns at 25yards tells me that slower and heavier will impact higher, but is the same true for rifles? My thoughts are a lighter faster boolit should drop less and therefore impact higher, but I would like to turn to the experience of the forum before purchasing different molds or burning more powder.

Any and all input will be appreciated.

[northmn]

You are running into one of the issues with earlier lever guns. If you look at the 30-30 for instance, it came in 150 and 170 weight which fit into the range of the sights. That is mentioned for other calibers and rifles as well. Faster loads tend to shoot higher or drop less. I had an issue with a Rossi that shot too high with 357's. If the sights are adjusted to the limit you either need a higher rear sight or a different load.
Are you looking through the sights correctly? The bead should be even with the top of the flat of the rear sight. In other words it should fill the U of the rear sight. Some like a "fine" bead and do not do that. I never really liked the 6 O'clock hold. Remember in a muzzle loading pistol match, I beat a guy that normally could clean my clock with a pistol. He liked the six O'clock hold but they gave us a different type of target. He shot the nicest group with a couple outside the scoring ring. Mine were more scattered but all scored.

DP

[Blackwater]

Sounds to me like you either need to get new front and/or rear sights, or maybe you need to consider using a different sight picture. With std. open sights, you might try keeping the top of the front sight even with and centered in the notch of the rear sight. This is also generally a quicker to acquire sight picture when fast handling is called for. Either of these solutions ought to work, I think.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Are you looking through the sights correctly? The bead should be even with the top of the flat of the rear sight. In other words it should fill the U of the rear sight.

This is how I attempt to line up front and rear sight. I find it really hard to aim at a lot of standard paper targets. I usually use a tabloid size sheet of paper (11"x17") with a 4" permanent marker dot drawn in the center. I line up the sights as described above and place the top of my front sight at the bottom of the 4" dot.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Sounds to me like you either need to get new front and/or rear sights, or maybe you need to consider using a different sight picture. With std. open sights, you might try keeping the top of the front sight even with and centered in the notch of the rear sight. This is also generally a quicker to acquire sight picture when fast handling is called for. Either of these solutions ought to work, I think. Do you have any recommendations for a taller rear sight? I tried the Marble's brand ones sold through Midway. The white diamond really distracts my eye, and the elevation step increments were not very positive.

[John Boy]

Change the front sight to a globe with inserts and put a verier Mid Range rear sight on the rifle

[Yodogsandman]

Or slow down your loads as you've said. You could go to a heavier boolit in the 357, too.

[Shawlerbrook]

Shorter front sight.

[buckshotshoey]

How about a ghost ring sight, possibly with changeable apertures?

[JSnover]

How about a ghost ring sight, possibly with changeable apertures?

Skinner makes a very nice one that might drop right in if the receiver was drilled and tapped at the factory.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

How about a ghost ring sight, possibly with changeable apertures?

I want to keep both rifles SASS legal. The only peep sights that are allowed are tang mounted ones.

[Blackwater]

Well, I was going to suggest a peep, but I guess that's out. Williams and Marble's make some models, and how they adjust is varied. Take a look at their websites and pick the one that looks most like what you need after doing a little accurate measuring of what you have, preferably with a good caliper. Then use a simple ratio based on sight radius to figure out how much additional height you need to get you shooting dead on. If the sight has a little adjustability above and below your calculations, you ought to be able to get it adjusted just right. It's just a matter of doing a little "homework" to get it right, but it's SO very much worth it! Good luck, and the more research you do, and the more measuring and calculating you do, the better your luck will tend to be.

[country gent]

Error in inches X sight radious in inches / range in inches will tell you how much you need to move the sights. A slightly shorter front sight or taller rear will do the trick. You could find a goopd used factory rear sight and cut out the original notch. Then solder a new blade on and recut the notch and file to hieght desired at mid point of the adjustment or even a lower step or 2. Would be a little work but you also end up with exactly what yopu want as to sight picture and settings. Use a round file or dremil tool and cut a large u where the existing buckhorn notch is in the sight. A piece of .060-.090 sheet steel cut and filed to shape desired. Sand both mating surfaces to flat and clean metal and solder the new blade in place. Cut and form the notch yopu want.

[buckshotshoey]

The only other "easy" fix i can think of at the moment is change your sight picture as mentioned by Northmn. I normally put the front bead into the notch of the rear sight. If you do this too, put the bead even with the top of the buckhorn, and adjust sight as necessary. Or you might have to dispose of the six oclock hold. I used to shoot Camp Perry National Matches with AR15, and i liked using the six oclock hold also. But that was shooting from 200 to 600 yards. Not a lot of benefit to a six oclock hold at ranges shorter then that, IMO.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I want to keep both rifles SASS legal. The only peep sights that are allowed are tang mounted ones.

Ah, you only mentioned having fun. I am sceptical about there being any situation in which peep sights, even the traditional tang sights, are actually inferior to open sights, and usually better, provided that there is a disc you can remove for poor light conditions. The aren't that easily knocked out of alignment, if they are folded when the rifle is carried around. An original Winchester or Marlin is probably already drilled and tapped.

[DougGuy]

Can you not simply make a new wedge that raises the factory rear sight blade? Buckhorn sights are easy as pie to bend. I would think a taller wedge would do what you need done.

[Mk42gunner]

Personally, I prefer the bullet to impact right on top of the front sight, the six o'clock hold has never made sense to me.

I'm not trying to make you mad with this suggestion, but do the guns shoot low for other shooters? Maybe your sight alignment is off. I could understand one rifle being off but two kind of raises red flags that it isn't the guns. Your loads don't sound that far from "normal" loads to me.

Here is a very crude rendition of buckhorn sights; (_._) imagine the period being even with the underscore, that is how I shoot buckhorns for close range. Replace the period with a colon and use the top period for longer ranges (_:_) without adjusting the rear sight.

Hope this helps,

Robert

[OverMax]

6 -o-clock hold/sighting is primarily taught for pistol use I always thought?

[country gent]

Alot of High Power shooter and rifle shooter using Iron sight use a 6 o'clock hold ussually with a line of white but sometimes as a "flat tire". The one match I did uise the centerhold or Navey Hold was the rattle battle match. Where hits on the shilouette counted misses didnt and speed counted. Its personal prefrence and what works for the shooter.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Thank you all for the replies and advice. I am going to try the cheapest solution first, that is adjusting my sight picture. Aiming at the bottom of a target comes natural to me because most of my targets (and hogs) are dark colored and the only way I can see the sights clearly is just below the target.

[Texas by God]

Can you not simply make a new wedge that raises the factory rear sight blade? Buckhorn sights are easy as pie to bend. I would think a taller wedge would do what you need done.
This is your solution. Best, Thomas.

[Dennis Eugene]

Try a heavier bullet.

[Jackpine]

I know you said you want to keep this as cheap as possible, but if you have not tried a tang mounted rear sight, I would highly recommend giving one a shot. (I am talking about Lyman #2 or similar style) It will solve your point if impact issue, and probably improve your grouping ability. It will also be SASS legal. Fold it down for close in match shooting, or remove the eyecup.

Another suggestion would be to try a Marble "Sporting Rear Sight" which have a little blade insert in them that slides up and down and is held in place by a little lock screw. They also have a white diamond on one side and plain black on the other and a larger notch on one end and smaller on the other. Brownells sells them for about $20.

I really cheap solution would be grind a flattop insert with a notch that fits the contour of the existing sight and epoxy it in place. (a little heat will allow you to remove it) This will be more stable if you have full buckhorn.

Good luck,

Jackpine

[ironhead7544]

You would need to have a shorter front sight. You could try filing it down a bit. Go very easy as you probably dont need to take off much. This will leave a flat top on a bead but that wont hurt.

You could get a front blade type from Skinner. Combined with a square notch rear this makes for a good sight picture.

[TXGunNut]

If the front sight is a dovetail you may want to measure it, there are some very short front sights available. OTOH simply pulling the front sight all the way down into the notch of the rear sight may be the best solution if you're not doing that already. I have tang sights on some of my Winchesters but not sure the Browning 92 tang is D&T'd for a tang sight.

[Geobru]

I use the 6:00 hold mainly because it gives me a better sight picture when shooting at paper. I have old eye syndrome! :)
That being said, I am a hunter, and when I shoot at an animal, I want the POI to be at the top of the bead, where I am holding on the critter. If I shoot at paper, I want the POI to be at the bottom of the target where I am aiming the rifle. That way, when I line up on a deer, I hold where I want the bullet to impact, and squeeze off the shot.

[TXGunNut]

I use the 6:00 hold mainly because it gives me a better sight picture when shooting at paper. I have old eye syndrome! :)
That being said, I am a hunter, and when I shoot at an animal, I want the POI to be at the top of the bead, where I am holding on the critter. If I shoot at paper, I want the POI to be at the bottom of the target where I am aiming the rifle. That way, when I line up on a deer, I hold where I want the bullet to impact, and squeeze off the shot.


That's exactly what I've been doing for the last few years, works good for a hunting rifle with irons. If I'm plinking @ fifty and sights are set for 100 I hit a bit closer to center.

[rintinglen]

If your sight is mounted on the barrel with an elevator slide, take a small piece of an aluminum can and fold it , then slip it under the rear sight to give you a smidge more elevation.If two layers doesn't cut it try three or four. But by my calculations, you will only need about 3.33 1/100ths of an inch to raise your impact 4 inches at 50 yards, assuming you have a standard 20 inch carbine barrel with a 15 inch sight radius.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I tried some different loads in the 45-70. My paper patch loads shot significantly higher and better than my grease groove loads.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161028/5330ba6062c1b0e5a72cccd664115b30.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161028/2ba531f2544faced5c4d137ef69d37b9.jpg

3-shots at 50yards resulted in a nice cloverleaf.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161028/7c76df6670084c124c360fa347c12817.jpg

3-shots at 100yards hit a little left. The elevation relative to the point of aim was good for me.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161028/eb9106f0ad1fc21d9f6ed3316d426856.jpg
I adjusted the sights slightly and fired 3 more.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161028/b920672b5272906cfd58065d595f2fb8.jpg
Honest 1.5" group from center to center.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161028/6e89651f36c8c854c5f700866f0fdb59.jpg

I am satisfied with these results and point of impact. Now I will focus on the 357.


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[buckshotshoey]

Good job. I went back through the postings, and didn't see the diameter bullet you were using or the dimensions of your slugged barrel. Sounds to me like you were getting blow by with the lubed bullets. And paper patching made them bigger and have a better gas seal. I'll bet two dollars to a dog turd that your velocities went up with paper patching.

I've learned a lot on this forum, and have come to realize that any time a cast bullet is to be used, slugging the barrel is pretty much mandatory. Answers many questions before the first boolit is even loaded in a case.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Good job. I went back through the postings, and didn't see the diameter bullet you were using or the dimensions of your slugged barrel. Sounds to me like you were getting blow by with the lubed bullets. And paper patching made them bigger and have a better gas seal. I'll bet two dollars to a dog turd that your velocities went up with paper patching.

I've learned a lot on this forum, and have come to realize that any time a cast bullet is to be used, slugging the barrel is pretty much mandatory. Answers many questions before the first boolit is even loaded in a case.

I'll be honest, I did not slug this particular rifle.

Paper patched and grease groove boolits both have a diameter of 0.460".

The grease groove boolits shot well (just low POI) and did not lead the barrel, so I did not see the point in pounding a lead ball through the bore.


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[clum553946]

Get a taller elevator for your rear buckhorn sight.