45 Bisley accuracy

[Slogg76]

I have an acusport Bisley that I REALLY like, but it is very picky about what it likes. In fact about all it will shoot good is 300+ grain bullets as hot as the gun (and shooter) will handle. It is especially fond of Sierra 300 grain jacketed bullets and some 325 grain hard cast LBT's. Unfortunately anything lighter ends up all over the place. And even the heavy slugs start opening up groups when the velocity is decreased. I had the cylinder mouths slugged and measured, and they came out right at .452 and were very uniform leading me to think the previous owner had them reamed to proper dimensions. Anyone else have especially fickle Rugers? Any suggestions?

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive had two of them now and they both prefer the 300 grain bullets. Both of mine had the throats opened too. One bullet they both did like is the 255 rcbs (old style) they just did a group buy on that mold through lee and maybe if you contact the honcho there might be a left over mold at the end of the buy. The redeisigned one that rcbs is producing now doesnt shoot near as well in my guns. Ive tried about every other 250 grain 45 bullet mold out there and none of them will do much better then 2 inch at 25 in any of my 45s. Ruger 45s have allways been a tad more contankerous then rugers 44mags to me. this comes from owning at least a dozen of each through the years. I dont know if its a matter of the fact that the 44 is more accurate of a round or Ruger just does better with there 44s or if its just that the available bullet designs out there for the 45 are just duds. I had one guy who i respect the opinon of tell me that ruger uses a slightly differnt rifleing in there 45s and he felt that was the problem but im no scientist and dont really know anything other then the 45 rugers can be a bugger to work loads up for.

[Bass Ackward]

Slogg,

Try an experiment. Take a slower velocity load and hollow point 6 cast slugs and it is OK to do this by hand. All you need to do is to get the drill diameter below the surface of the nose. Don't worry about being in the center or the same depth. Then shoot these and compare accuracy.

Handguns tend to operate on the low end of the RPM scale. So any disruption to the bullet from the mechanicals (forcing cone not cut true with bore, thread crush, or bad crown, etc) of the gun can cause this finickiness as you need maximum RPMs to stabilize. This finickiness can be over come by jumping through reloading techniques or changing bullet designs, but these can be very complicated and expensive today to work through.

If the group with these hand drilled slugs shoots better, and I am betting that it will, you will know that it is a mechanical issue at hand and you can go from there. Any gun should improve right up until about 10,000 - 12,000 rounds. By then you have pretty much what you are going to get.

This goes for any make wheelgun.

[bigdog454]

I have 2 ruger 45's and have found them to be very finiky. As you have said, they like the heavy bullets. neither will shoot the 230gr bullets worth a D***. The one will shoot a 250 pretty good, but both will shoot the 310 gr CL very well. I like to shoot the lighter boolits to conserve on lead, and have after much trial and error, found that at about 1000fps both will shoot "OK" with the 230 gr boolit, but only with certain powders. Both guns like Unique and Herco, with my best luck with 10 gr of Herco.

[45r]

The rcbs 270SAA shoots ragged hole groups in my 45 redhawk over 9.0 grains power pistol.

[fourarmed]

Mine has been a trial, too. I am barely satisfied with the 270SAA and 2400 (I don't have the charge at hand.) That bullet didn't do as well with faster powders, and leaded heavily with them as well. I have tried no heavier bullets.

[Dale53]

I have a Ruger Bisley Vaquero in .45 Colt and it shoots well with both smokeless AND black powder. It'll shoot 1.5" groups at 25 yards with the Lyman Cowboy bullet (lubed with Emmert's Home Mix over a case full - I put enough black in to compress the charge 1/16" seating the bullet). I use 25/1 lead/tin for this use. The revolver will do a bit better than that with smokeless (factory equivalent loads).

Mine has the cylinder throats at .451" (same as the barrel). I would prefer the cylinder throats to be .452" but will not change as I am afraid that might upset the accuracy available. So, on the whole, I am quite satisfied with mine.

Dale53

[lastmanout]

The 45 Colt has been around for so long, there are many chamber variations, this really adds to the mix. Once a low pressure round that cowboys didn't reload, it has become the basis for a high-performance boomer. I have a 1970's Ruger blackhawk and it shoots well as long as I neck size the once-fired brass and shoot it in that revolver. My later 1990's Vaquero has tighter dinmensions and will not accept the unsized brass from the Blackhawk. Saami tighter their specs a few years back, and Ruger improved tighter chambers to please the Cowboy action shooters. A suprisingly accurate load (for me) is the Lee 230 grain flat point truncicated cone with AA nitro 100 powder.

[yondering]

Those of you who can't get the 255gr cast to shoot well, what powder are you using?
I've settled on 10gr Unique with a 255gr hard cast SWC, the three Blackhawks I've had all shoot great with this load. This load should produce right about 1,050 fps.

You might also check for a barrel constriction at the forcing cone, this is very common with the 45 Colt Blackhawks, and 300+ grain bullets are supposedly less sensitive to this constriction (and undersized throats) than the lighter bullets.
The barrel constriction can be removed with firelapping; I used the Beartooth bullets method with good results.

[Slogg76]

Thanks for the ideas! Took long to reply. Been without power due to storms.
After talking to a few local Ruger 45 owners they made the same statements-their 45 Blackhawks only like 300+ grain bullets loaded hot. I have also owned 44 mag Rugers in the past and found them less finicky. If I grow more frustrated I may just trade. I'm all set up to cast 45 caliber stuff though. Hate to restock for 44 stuff. I REALLY like my Bisley. I'll fool around with it some more before I part with it. Also been flirting with the idea of a Ruger 454 Casull as I hear they are pretty accurate.

[Swagerman]

I have a question on the Bisley Ruger, can you shoot the same +P loads in a .45 Colt Bisley as a Blackhawk .45 Colt caliber?

Jim

[Slogg76]

The 45 Colt Ruger Bisleys are built on their large, new model blackhawk frames and can handle the +P 45 Colt ammo. In fact +P 300 grain loads is all my particular Ruger Bisley likes.

[Lloyd Smale]

if your not stuck on a 45 it might not be a bad idea. Every 44 ruger ive owned has been a real good shooter and have allways been easier to find good loads for. The 44 will basicaly do anything a 45 colt will do anyway.
Thanks for the ideas! Took long to reply. Been without power due to storms.
After talking to a few local Ruger 45 owners they made the same statements-their 45 Blackhawks only like 300+ grain bullets loaded hot. I have also owned 44 mag Rugers in the past and found them less finicky. If I grow more frustrated I may just trade. I'm all set up to cast 45 caliber stuff though. Hate to restock for 44 stuff. I REALLY like my Bisley. I'll fool around with it some more before I part with it. Also been flirting with the idea of a Ruger 454 Casull as I hear they are pretty accurate.

[Bass Ackward]

if your not stuck on a 45 it might not be a bad idea. Every 44 ruger ive owned has been a real good shooter and have allways been easier to find good loads for. The 44 will basicaly do anything a 45 colt will do anyway.


Some of the problem here is systemic. I just find that you need to understand that when you get to 45 caliber you are shifting gears in case size to bore diameter relationship. The same weight bullets in 45 caliber are noticeably shorter than smaller bores. The shorter a slug becomes, (lighter) the harder it is to prevent tipping or maintain alignment.

Then you get to systemic issues with the 45 Colt from chamber and gun dimensions to thinner brass that doesn't grip what little bullet is seated in it. Plus, the anneal on the Colt brass tends to be on the softer side to work at proper pressures for the Colt. So anneal ruins what little tension you had.

Deep seating ruins the macho looks of reloads, but solves issues for me. It reduces excess case volume and increases neck tension. And an olgive crimp can be more tenacious if need be too. Now that crimp groove becomes a lube groove.

The two best fillers in straight cases is powder and bullet. Sometimes I need to increase hardness if increasing bullet jump, but it tends to work out for the better even if I don't. Either that or I increase bullet diameter to over throat diameter and use this sizing operation to perform the alignment and ignition improvement for me. Larger diameter bullets also increase neck tension too.

But you now understand why I left the 45 Colt in preference for the 44 Mag back about 1969. But cut that case down to 45AR volume and you have it again for cast level velocity work, even with short bullets. :grin:

[High Desert Hunter]

My AccuSport Bisley shoots like a house on fire with the RCBS 270-SAA, they drop at 284gr from straight wheel weights, and I load them mild to wild. This is my favorite bullet in every 45 Colt I own. I size mine to .451, and do get a little leading in the throat of the barrel, one of these days I will get the cylinder mouths reamed to a uniform .452 size so that they better match the bore.

Dave

[Thumbcocker]

My accusport .45 Bisley convertible has been a PITA. I had the throats reamed to .4525 and am experimenting with the RCBS 270 boollit but it has been disapointing accuracy wise. The acp cylinder with 452460's does passable but nowhere near what my 625 model of 1989 will do.

I am disappointed as both my .44 Bisley's shoot like they have eyes. I am pretty sure I have a constricted barrel to deal with in the .45. I am a little P.O. ed that I am going to have to spend more time and money to finish the manufacturing process on this gun.

[mainiac]

my 45 bisley is the most accurate handgun ive ever owned! It didnt start out that way, until one day that i tried 7 grs of red dot, under a 452460 lyman. 1000 f.p.s. velocity, and this load chews one hole out of the paper @ 25 yards! I lube the bottom groove, and crimp in the top groove. My mold throws a boolit that weighs 204 grs all lubed.

[txpete]

I haven't shot any 45 acp loads out of it so far but in 45 colt I have no complaints.this is a very good shooter with 9.0 gr unique and the ideal 452-423 keith bullet with the old style lube grooves.
pete
this would be the last revolver that would leave my safe.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/txpete/ruger45002-2.jpg

[madcaster]

This model ogf revolver is kinda funny,I can not pick it up for months and when I do it still shoots great and is easy to get reaquanted with!Love it!:coffee:

[Slogg76]

I guess Ruger's 45 Colts are hit and miss. A friend of mine picked up a 45 new model Blackhawk with a 2x Leupold mounted on it. We put many of my handloads through it yesterday, everything from 300 grain +P+ to mild 255 grain wad cutters at 700 fps. It absolutely refused to shoot 6 shot groups any bigger than 2" at 25 yards. Of course he did get it off a local gunsmith. Still, I think that I will be going the way of the 44 magnum.

[yondering]

Bass, have you handled any 45 Colt brass since you tried it in 1969? Your issues with lack of neck tension and needing to deep seat bullets sound like you had some old balloon head cases or maybe dies that weren't sizing properly. Modern 45 Colt brass is plenty thick enough for adequate neck tension. I've never experienced a problem with that, and have even been able to seat bullets long, with plenty of neck tension to spare.

[targetshootr]

I think every 45 Blackhawk I've owned needed the throats opened up but not the 44s. It may explain a lot of the differences.

[Ken 45LC]

I agree with targetshootr, I have 4 bisley 45's and all of them had 451 throats when new. If you plan on shooting mostly lead thru it, you may want to consider changing the forcing cone angle as well.

What hardness of lead are you putting thru it? Depending on the hardness, you might want to play with that a little. Mine actually like a little softer bullet than I originally thought.

Good luck,

Ken

[Slogg76]

Actually I got to try out a few new loads and bullets. Loaded up some 250 grain Speer Gold Dots using Speers reloading data for Rugers and while the accuracy was pretty bad with a few powders, my Bisley turned in some fantastic groups with a max charge of Unique (10.8 grains). My cast bullets are cast from straight wheel weights and sized/lubed in a Lyman 450 with Lyman super moly lube. I may still get a 44 mag, but I can't bring myself to part with the Bisley. Especially since it is starting to show some promise. It appears that it is just super picky about what it likes.

[Thumbcocker]

Just got back from the gunsmith's shop. Very pronounced tight spot at the barrel frame juncture. Hs says Ruger will make it right and offered to ship it for me. I plan on calling Ruger and ******** accordingly. Lord knows they have gotten enough of my money over teh years.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass, have you handled any 45 Colt brass since you tried it in 1969? Your issues with lack of neck tension and needing to deep seat bullets sound like you had some old balloon head cases or maybe dies that weren't sizing properly. Modern 45 Colt brass is plenty thick enough for adequate neck tension. I've never experienced a problem with that, and have even been able to seat bullets long, with plenty of neck tension to spare.


Yonder,

Balloon head #*>+@)(~`!

Good for you. Most of the time I bell anything for a PB bullet, I'd say that it eliminates neck tension to a degree. And deeper seating improves everything from alignment to ignition. This is not just a phenom in the Colt, but it seems to manifest it self more starting at this bore diameter / case capacity level. But it also applies to 200 grainers in 44 Mag, or 125s in 357 etc.

So my point is, that if you have a requirement for, or seek an option for light (pressure) loads, why not try it if you can get passed the looks? :grin:

[45r]

You can open the throats .0005 to .001 by polishing with lapping compound using a nylon brush.I cut off the front end of a sock and turn it inside out and put it over the brush with lapping compound spread on it about a half inch up from the end of the brush.The cloth should about the size a silver dollar.Spin in both directions entering from the rear of the cylinder.I do this till a 250 XTP will slip into the throats backwards from the front of the cylinder.Don't over do it.You want a very snug fit.Polish with flitz before testing for proper fit and after your done.I did this to my 454 casull that had .4515 throats and a 250 XTP will barely slip in to the cannelure and it will chamber .452 sized boolits and shoot them into 2 inch groups at 75 yards.It was a tack-driver to begin with and is a real tack-driver now,especially with cast boolits.I'm a firm believer in polished throats and a lapped barrel helps also.The barrel looked like it was hand-lapped so I didn't fire-lap it.I fire-lapped my bisley hunter 41 mag because of the barrel constriction and it will shoot 2 inch groups at 75 yards also.It has a scope and my 454 has a Red Dot sight.I fire-lapped my 45 colt Redhawk also because of Ruger barrel constrictions and it shoots ragged hole groups with iron sights.A perfect set up will have polished thoats that are .0005 over barrel groove diameter.My 454 has this and is my favored handgun.It can shoot far better than I can hold.I'm temted to scope it and see just how good it can shoot.The Dot sight on it now is better for hunting in low light so I haven't messed with it.I'm sure your bisley can shoot,it just needs a little work.The gold dot load shows it has potential.

[Thumbcocker]

My .45 convertible is in New Hampshire as we speak and at Rugers shiping expense. It took a little very polite but firm ******** to achieve this. I included a letter that it seemed that many of this model had over tourqued barrels and that Ruger buyers were to get cylinders opened and deal with constricted barrels. The same letter included by affection for Ruger Bisleys, teh fact that I had traded a competitors product in on this gun, and a list of products that I would buy if they were offered.

I plugged for a .44 special Bisley on a 50th anniversery frame and a Bisley .327. Don't know if it willl work but nothing wagered nothing gained.

[nicholst55]

My .45 convertible is in New Hampshire as we speak and at Rugers shiping expense. It took a little very polite but firm ******** to achieve this. I included a letter that it seemed that many of this model had over tourqued barrels and that Ruger buyers were to get cylinders opened and deal with constricted barrels. The same letter included by affection for Ruger Bisleys, teh fact that I had traded a competitors product in on this gun, and a list of products that I would buy if they were offered.

I plugged for a .44 special Bisley on a 50th anniversery frame and a Bisley .327. Don't know if it willl work but nothing wagered nothing gained.

I agree that Ruger owners shouldn't have to deal with too-small chamber throats or tight spots under the frame threads... but we do. I wrote to Ruger requesting a .44 Special 50th Anniversary-size gun as soon as they announced it in .357. They responded that they had no intention of offering the gun in .44 Magnum. Well duh! :roll:

Kinda makes you wonder if they're asleep at the wheel. No wait - that's a western swing band! :groner:

[Nueces]

I got the same response several years ago, when I emailed Freedom Arms about wanting a 44 Special in the M-97. It's hard to talk guns with a knitting enthusiast.

Mark

[Heavy lead]

I have had or have 7 45's in Rugers over the years. Mostly too small throats were the norm except one made in the 70's with 456 throats. Brownells makes a real nice kit I think from Dave Manson that makes it real easy to open and true up 45 throats. It's better to have them too small than too big. They all shoot fine now. I've also opened up a 625 Smith that was a smidge tight also. My go to bullet for all of them is the saa 270 rcbs with 20:1 and javelina sized to 452 with 10 grains of unique. If you're gonna buy a Ruger 45 you need the kit.

[Thumbcocker]

Got the Bisley .45 back from New Hampshire yesterday. The invoice read as follows:

Barrel Cahmber Repaired
Barrel Gap Repaired
Pawl Repaired
Base Pin Repaired
Ejector Rod Repaired

Repair, safety function check and test firing have been completed. Released for shipping.

Notes: POA-POI 45 Long Colt 1" low 1" left 1" group Ammo- Winchester 255 Grain LRN. 45 ACP- 1" low 1/2" left 1" group. Ammo Winchester 230 grain JHP.

The barrel cylinder gap is very tight and The trigger is heavy but very crisp. Whoever does the repains knows how to put revolvers together. Also NO TIGHT SPOT in the barrel.

Can't wait to put this sucker on paper with 270 RCBS and Unique.

I will keep you all posted.

[Thumbcocker]

Finally got to the range with the rebarreled Bisley .45. First load was 270 grn. RCBS swc over 8.0 of Unique. I am trying to post pics so bear with me. I woule advise anyone with one of these revolvers with a constricted bore to return it to Ruger for repair. Someone in New Hampshire seems to know how to install a barrel. Maybe Ruger would get the barrels right the first time if they had to fix enough of them.