Help! Is it my load or my shooting?

[shootsblanks]

Hi all, usually content to lurk however i have been having a problem with a new to me model 94.
At 25 yards checking to see if i was on paper i easily produced several 5 shot groups just under an inch (minus called flyers that opened the average up to 1.5") i know this isnt amazing but i rarely shoot deer past 75 yards so it suits me fine to have a 3.5-4moa rifle.
Unfortunatly when i backed off to set my sights at 50 i shot a group that would make a sawed of shotgun proud! 6" tall and about 5" wide. No keyholes and no called flyers..
Load is a lee 309 170f sized 310, checked and tumbled in lla weighing 177.5gr
Win brass
Win lrp
22gr H4198
Medium roll crimp into the groove
Loaded with a lyman 310 tool

It was the last group of the day and i didnt have my camera, this same load from my other 94 has not been shot at paper but rings a 6" gong at 125 untill i am bored.
Could it be my shooting? Or is that kind of non uniform group dispersion something that happens?

Also if anyone has any idea how fast that bullet is going that would be awesome, i am estimating it at 1810fps but if anybody has run this through a chrony and could let me know?

Thanks!

[Thumbcocker]

I would try the boolit but fatter. If they will chamber unsized try that. FWIW I size almost all 30 cals to .311

[shoot-n-lead]

.311 will probably work better...as suggested, but I would tend to think that your shooting is the culprit in this instance. There can be a little learning curve to shooting the 94. I know that if I have not shot mine in a awhile, I have to really concentrate to get good groups. I have to make sure that my cheek is down, well, on the stock and that I get that front blade down far enough in rear sight.JMO

[Bird]

It seems that you are at a maximum load. I would try 150 fps lower velocity and see what happens. If you can ring the 125 yard 6'' gong consistantly, then you should be shooting half or less that size at 50yds.
Easy way to tell if its you or the rifle, try shooting the 125 gong before shooting groups. I always take a known good load and rifle to the range with me, that allows me to determine if I am just having a bad day or it is my test ammo.

[shootsblanks]

Awesome thanks for the tips! I need to run them through the sizer as my aluminum checks are .316 and bulge the necks a bit, should i get a box of hornady checks instead? Either way i will open my sizing die up to .311 if thats what people are generally finding to be the best.

I would hate for it to be my shooting but i wouldnt be suprised if that played a part, i guess i will just need to practice more.... Darn....:D

I will definitly try and back off the charge a bit, after some reading and checking the hodgdons reloading page i am under the impression that i will be getting 100fps~ more than a jacketed at the same charge weight, my load calculater puts a 170sie fp at 1875 with 22gr h4198, but thats a 24" test barrel
So my initial estimate may have been way off, cant confirm without a chrony. Does going down to 19.5gr and working back up in .5 gr increments seem advisable?

[Bird]

Awesome thanks for the tips! I need to run them through the sizer as my aluminum checks are .316 and bulge the necks a bit, should i get a box of hornady checks instead? Either way i will open my sizing die up to .311 if thats what people are generally finding to be the best.

I would hate for it to be my shooting but i wouldnt be suprised if that played a part, i guess i will just need to practice more.... Darn....:D

I will definitly try and back off the charge a bit, after some reading and checking the hodgdons reloading page i am under the impression that i will be getting 100fps~ more than a jacketed at the same charge weight, my load calculater puts a 170sie fp at 1875 with 22gr h4198, but thats a 24" test barrel
So my initial estimate may have been way off, cant confirm without a chrony. Does going down to 19.5gr and working back up in .5 gr increments seem advisable?
Yes, I would start at 19.5 gr.
For the 30-30, I go up in 0.3 gr increments, and if I can find accuracy, I fine tune it from there. Sizing to 0.310'' should be ok, depending on your bore size. Your gas checks should fit the base of the bullet so that it sits nice and flat. 0.316'' checks may be bulging at the base, which is not helping accuracy, nor will the bulging of the case neck, it can cause loose fitting of the bullet in the neck. If the bullet does not enter the bore squarely, it will be hard to find accuracy.
Did you shoot from/off a bench or rest?
Don't worry about velocity, you can work on that later.

[shootsblanks]

The checks are 310 after sizing so that shouldnt be much of an issue, its why i wasnt loading them unsized though..

Will try that with the charge, velocity isnt much of a concern if it will drop coyotes/deer/bear out to 150 or so

My rest was a backpack from the prone, my targets werent the best (orange cross on white paper) but in my line of thinking if i can hit 1" at 25 i should be hitting 2 at 50 with everything else being the same, for all i know it could have been me,

Will put all the the help into practice and shoot it off a sandbags to see what happens!

[bedbugbilly]

I'm no expert on the 30-30 as I am in the process of "learning" - I have a Winchester 94 Ranger and a vintage Marlin 336SC. What I a finding on my Winchester is that my cast, sized to .309, seems to shoot the best out of it. . . . but so far, that's me and my rifle. I have tried loading some dummy rounds with .311 cast and they won't chamber in my Ranger. Plus, it seems to have a short throat which is what I've read as far as others who have them.

My point is . . . before you polish out a sizer to .311 . . . load some dummy rounds first to make sure they will chamber in your particular rifle. It would be a shame to alter a sizer and then find out they won't fit.

I also do most of my loading with my Lyman 310 dies and steel tong - I get nice looking consistent rounds and it's relaxing to batch load with them.

[Blackwater]

It's hard to say from what you've given us. funnel shaped groups tend to make me think the bullets are yawing, and this is what is making for the non-linear group sizes. I could be wrong, but it could simply be that you're dropping your bullets onto a too hard surface, denting it on one side, which can cause an imbalance, and at the extremely high RPM's our bullets fly at, it doesn't take much to cause a bullet to yaw. Any sort of imbalance, like what we'd normally think of as a "minor flaw," can cause longer range inaccuracy because it simply throws the bullet out of balance at the high rate of RPM's they rotate. Anything that bends them or makes a slight flat, even a very small one, can throw it out of balance and cause the problems you're experiencing.

Next casting session, be sure you've got an old, thick towel folded over a couple of times to drop your bullets on and see if that helps. Again, this is just a guess, but it's based on experience and we've all faced questions and situations like this at some point. The way we ALL learn is by making mistakes, and then correcting them. Our tendency to say, "Ah, that won't mattter." But sometimes, it really DOES. The rules for casting don't change just because we're in a hurry at times. No matter how much we want them to.

[dverna]

BTW, cast bullets are worse than jacketed bullets with respect to "linear" grouping at longer ranges. Cast bullets are generally less uniform so as ranges extend, the bullet groups will disproportionally increase in size.

One last thing, make sure you thoroughly clean that barrel if it has shot jacketed bullets in the past. You need to get all the copper fouling out.

[HeavyMetal]

something I think most have missed here: you have Two 30-30's, one will use this load and ring your gong the other doesn't like the load!

Not unusual to find the "same" gun won't share a load.

Suggestion: Take both 30-30 out with the same load and test before you do anything else with the load you've given us.

That will really determine your next move and, by the way, take a good hard look at the muzzle of the "new" 30-30 and be sure it has no dings or burr's on it!

This is the first thing I check on any used gun before the purchase and can be an easy fix but it is also easily overlooked!

[LeadHead72]

My dad bought a newer Winchester 94 30-30 a few years ago. Never could get it to shoot worth a hoot, even with factory ammo, so he got rid of it.

[shootsblanks]

Hey, thanks for everyone who helped, just got back from the range and although i am still not completely satisfied things have improved. I started by stripping my rifle down to bare steel using rb 17, cobber pot scrubber and elbow grease, once that was done
I cast a batch of 200 boolits last sunday, sorted for visual imperfections and weighed the perfect ones into +/- .5 gr piles, loaded the boolits from the largest pile sized 310 and tumbled with lla over 19.5 -21.5gr of h4198 in .5gr increments, and the 21.5 load grouped the best at 50 yards giving me 3 almost touching and 7 more stringing 3.75" high for a 10 shot group, and nice 1.75" 3 shot groups, the other loads gave me an average of a 2" wide group and between 4 and 6" tall, on three shot groups the norm was 2 very close and 1 high, i fired 2, 3 shot groups per load and 1, ten shot group per load, it seemed every third or 4th round would just go high (this isnt including called flyers)
All groups were seperated by between 5 and 10 minitus to cool the rifle
I am using lee dippers a trickler and a digital scale to measure my charges, so i dont think its my charge, any ideas?

[gnostic]

You may have to lower your expectations. That's about the way I shoot a model 94 Winchester; I have a hard time seeing the front sight in outdoor/daylight situations.

[shootsblanks]

that would be disappointing, I have a box of jacketed reloads from before I started casting on the shelf that were giving me 3/4" groups at 50 from sandbags and 1 1/2" from prone in my other rifle for 5 strings, I am going to try those, if similar things happen with the vertical stringing in this rifle I am going to assume that its the gun climbing due to heat and not me or the load,

[44man]

Could be the gun. I had a Marlin 39 Mounty long ago that accounted for thousands of squirrels head shot. Then I bought a WW .22, the new lever gun, all machined, don't remember the model. I could not hit a tin can at 20 yards.
Then I bought a Ruger Mark target and could not hit a thing. I found bullets were hitting the ground 20' in front of me. I found nothing wrong so sent it back, they sent me a new gun and it was a dream.
Now I had a WW 52 so crazy I would shoot a group at 50 yards and shoot the four staples out to change the target. My pre 64 WW .220 Swift shot a 1/4" group at 350 yards, 5 shots, head shot chucks to over 600 yards.
But the next gun might not do it.
Now I have a Marlin 30-30 and had it so hot I could not touch the barrel and it keeps shooting. It is a Remlin.
Some of the best rifles I ever shot dated back to WWI and II. My 1919 Swede will do well under 1/2" all day so I customized it with a cherry stock from a tree that fell in my woods. A 410 shell is dead at 100.
I had an original Marlin 1892 in 25-20 that did 3/4" at 100 with a cast Lyman.
Lever guns are tricky in how they are held. They can have heat problems.
I had a Marlin .35 Rem long ago and jacketed hand loads did 1/2" at 100 but cast sucked. I did not know FIT then and the mold was not big enough.

[Wayne Smith]

And you assumption that there is a linear relationship in distance with cast like there is with condoms may not hold water. If your boolit is marginally stabilized it may be less accurate at 25 yards and settle down in the remaining distance to 50 or 100. Actually, that is equally true with condoms but we seldom see them marginally stabilized. With cast we may shoot a shorter boolit, or a longer one than the condoms are, or may drop the velocity below stabilization.

[44man]

Actually, YES. My .220 swift was real bad at 100 yards. Over spun and did not settle close.
Just like my WFN revolver boolits that can hit at 500 meters when all say they are not stable.
Velocity and spin is what works.
Target shooters use slow twists at close ranges but long range is a waste.
Did you ever watch a BB from a Red Rider? Ever watch a ball from a smooth bore?
I did not like a 22-250 back then, twist was wrong for a heavy bullet. I shot a 60 gr Hornady from the swift and no way a 22-250 would do it. You never head shot chucks at over 600 with them and the 40 gr bullet.
I shot IHMSA and watched thousands of boolits. Did you know the S&W 29 was a fast twist at 1 in 18-3/4" it shot good with a 240 gr but I seen a corkscrew going down range. Go to a 250 gr and the path was straight. Takes very little for stability.
We have funny here. A .44 with a 2" barrel. Twist the same but no way to get it up with any powder. A heavy boolit needs over 1300 fps and the 2" is in a .44 SP range or less, can't get spin. Guys say spin is the same, get over it, you can't do it. A .454 in 2" or a .500. remember the jerks with their heads up their butts?

[higgins]

If you have an acquaintance who you know is a better shot off the bench than you are, don't be ashamed to ask him to fire a couple of groups for you and see what happens. If the groups are good, you would still need to zero the gun yourself because I think we all see iron sights differently. I've gotten good accuracy with .310 bullets in an unslugged .308 Win. and a .30/30 that I slugged .309.

[Thumbcocker]

Bedding? Magazine tube?

[turtlezx]

44 man you always amaze me!! nice shooting

[robg]

How you hold that Winny ? I get the best accuracy if I rest my hand on a bag and hold the fore end firmly pulling back at about 45 digrees with it tight against my shoulder with no rear rest ,sounds strange compared to shooting a bolt gun but they are different.hope this helps.

[dubber123]

If you are getting sub inch 50 yard groups with factory ammo, it is obviously the cast load that is the problem, not you. I have heard the Winchesters run tighter than Marlins, but have you slugged the bore? It may be looser than you think. I had to hone out the neck portion of the seating die to allow loading them, but my brother shoots .311+" boolits in his 94 with sub inch 50 yard accuracy. The Marlin I have been tinkering with is also shooting .311" boolits and is running right at an inch at 50 yds. at 2,100+ fps. I would try something other than LLA for lube too. You can just rub some of a different lube in the grooves if you don't have a lubrisizer, I did it a lot when testing different lubes.
good luck.

[shootsblanks]

Next time i shoot i am going to have a buddy try my rifle, after mulling it over and alot of reflection i do recall a few shots that felt as if they were slower? If that makes sense, the time between squeezing the trigger and the recoil hitting my shoulder just felt slightly off, could it be an ignition issue? And if so how would i deal with that?

[44man]

One thing to look for in the 30-30 is run out. Roll a round on a flat bench and watch the boolit wobble. I found the necks were all a different thickness and much thicker on one side. I turned all the necks just enough to even them. They might need fire formed after.
I can't measure it on the boolit, none are round and the parting line is a bump. I just measured a loaded round on the end of the neck and am down to .002" to 0 now.
That much difference I found will also affect the boolit pull.
A check just a tad over the boolit size will change pull by opening the brass when you seat. It will change the burn.
I don't like 4198, found 3031 about the best, 4895 and Varget close behind.
Working 4198 in my BFR 45-70, loads weighed to perfect, I had excursions from 1600 to 1800+ fps with cast but for some reason it worked with jacketed. I had a few stuck cases with class II loads. I does not shoot good in my 30-30.177716 I designed this boolit to fit my Marlin and this was 3031 at 100. Last 3 shots in the can. The boolit is 187 gr. I used 26 gr of 3031 and Felix lube. Fed 210 primer.
I size just enough to chamber and they will not go into a 94 unless I FL.

[fatelvis]

According to Quickload: Out of a 20" barrel, 22 grns of H4198 with that boolit, will give you 1,792fps and 26,483 psi.

[shootsblanks]

According to Quickload: Out of a 20" barrel, 22 grns of H4198 with that boolit, will give you 1,792fps and 26,483 psi.

awesome thanks, that should be plenty for bambi out to 150 I should think?