Brown and gunky Ballard

[marlinman93]

Picked up this gunky Ballard at a local gun shop yesterday. Coated with some sort of oil or varnish, which has turned a brownish color, and very hard!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/DSCF5123.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/DSCF5123.jpg.html)

A little rubbing with acetone showed this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/DSCF5120.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/DSCF5120.jpg.html)

And 5 hours more today with acetone and bronze wool revealed a stunning, near perfect Ballard Pacific in .40-85 Everlasting Ballard!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/DSCF5125.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/DSCF5125.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/DSCF5127.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/DSCF5127.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/DSCF5130.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/DSCF5130.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/DSCF5131.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/DSCF5131.jpg.html)


The varnish applied to the metal preserved the gun as a time capsule! It shows features I didn't know about a Pacific. Like the wiping rod thimbles being case colored! Thought t might be doggy, but once it cleaned up, I was pleasantly surprised!

[tdoyka]

hey!!! thats mine!!! :lol::kidding:

very good work!!! congrats!!!

[rfd]

wowser! awesome find and a good "restoration"!

[marlinman93]

Wish all restorations could be done in 5 hours with a little elbow grease!
Now I need to find some very rare .40-85 Everlasting cases, or a couple optional donor cases. I figured out that .40-72, .40-90 Sharps Straight, and .405 Basic, all have the right rim, base, and enough length to be used. Just need to search out availability, and get some dies. One of my .40 caliber molds should work on it, as a couple others are Ballard .40's, and bores should be the same.

[Jedman]

Wish I could find one like that. I still don't own a Ballard yet but always looking.

Jedman

[flint45]

Nice find it came out real nice whats the bore look like ?

[marlinman93]

Nice find it came out real nice whats the bore look like ?

Minty bore! Looks unfired it's so nice! Hope brass doesn't break the bank!

[curator]

Back before the turn of the 19/20th century, firearms that were going into storage were often dipped into a barrel of boiled linseed oil as a preservative. That worked as good as modern cosmoline but did harden into a varnish-like coating. Lucky for you the former owner was so thoughtful.

[M-Tecs]

Wow nice find!!!!!!

[marlinman93]

Back before the turn of the 19/20th century, firearms that were going into storage were often dipped into a barrel of boiled linseed oil as a preservative. That worked as good as modern cosmoline but did harden into a varnish-like coating. Lucky for you the former owner was so thoughtful.

The owner of these guns was the son of the original owner. When his father died he applied whatever was on them to protect them. The current owner is supposedly in his 70's, so no telling how long that hardened crud was there. But you are correct, it did a wonderful job of protecting the guns!
Supposed to be a dozen guns in the sale, and dealer said two Lugers were stuck and toggles can't even be pulled back. Another Winchester 1885 in .32-40 that got missed somehow? Maybe the son was shooting it, so didn't coat it. An Inland .30 Carbine that supposedly looks brand new also. And an 1886 Winchester in an unknown caliber, but a recoil pad added.

[marlinman93]

Wow nice find!!!!!!

Thanks! Been a good year for Ballards, for some odd reason?

[Bigslug]

:shock:

:shock:

:shock:

:shock:

M.M. . .

Glad I was sitting down when I clicked. I am poleaxe-level stunned by this. That looks like made a month ago and hunted with ONCE! What over-the-counter product are you using to polish your Karma with? I WANT SOME!

[clum553946]

Very nice score! Congrats! That is a beautiful rifle!

[blackbahart]

looks to be a fine speciman !

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I've got a sporting straight-pull M1895 Mannlicher in 7.7x60R which could be very valuable if I hadn't restored it from a rusty barrelled action. The cartridge may never have reached the market at all, for although cartridge books parrot one another in saying it was a combination gun cartridge, it was one of Professor Hebler's experimentals. They also get the measurements wrong, saying the case was 2.49in. long, which isn't 60mm. The bore, however, was coated with something that had hardened like thick varnish, which preserved it perfectly.

While linseed oil may sometimes do that, I don't believe I would care to count on it. It is funny stuff, a strong oxidiser, which is why pilots aren't allowed to have anything recently polished with it near an oxygen supply. Linseed soaked rags bundled up tightly in a waste basket can actually start to smoulder through spontaneous combustion. Just conceivably it might promote rusting or at least discoloration while tacky. It is the kind of thing you would probably fail to reproduce if you wanted to demonstrate it, but would happen when you don't.

If I really had to put a gun upon the wall, untouched for years at a time, I would remove the woodwork and spray it with clear synthetic lacquer, which would probably be no harder to remove.

[Mk42gunner]

Very nice rifle.

My "brown and gunky" firearm purchases usually turn into "finely textured non glare finishes" after the rust is removed.

Robert

[marlinman93]

Thanks everyone!
Last night I got an idea to try and make a cartridge for this Ballard. I have 180 RMC lathe turned cases for my Ballad in .44-100, and the cases share a lot with the .40-85 Everlasting. So I grabbed one and lubed it with pure lanolin to help ease the sizing. Put a .40-65 sizing die in my Rockchucker, and in 7-8 steps got it sized down a bit. Then grabbed my .40-70 Ballard dies, and lubed the case again, and ran it through in about 5 steps. This left a 1/4" ridge at the base, so I chucked it in my lathe, and used a mill file to take the large ridge off as I spun it. Dropped right in the chamber when done, so seems to be close enough to fire form.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/DSCF5133.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/DSCF5133.jpg.html)

I've located some .40-90 Sharps Straight brass. Not a fan of Bertram Brass, but will give it a try, as it's $2.50 a case vs. the RMC lathe turned at nearly $4 a case! It's also closer to start with, so might be easier to start with it instead.

[flint45]

Glad that bore was good, excellent find good luck with it.

[Hooker53]

That would be the same as winning a small nice lottery. Ha. Glad you found it. Let us know how is shoots.

Roy
Hooker53

[Reverend Al]

I'm going to try reforming 9.3x74R brass for my .40-90 Ballard No. 5 Pacific. It should be close enough dimensions for "shooter" brass from what I can see. I found a pretty good deal on some once fired Norma brass over in Germany and it is on it's way over to me now ... all 550 rounds of it! LOL ... if it doesn't work well enough in the Ballard then it can always be reformed into 3" brass .410 hulls!

[marlinman93]

From speaking with a friend who's owned over 200 Ballard Pacifics, and loves the .40-85/.40-90 Ballard cartridge. He told me the extractor will slip off the rim of the 9.3x74R brass, and it's not the best choice. He said the .40-90 Sharps Straight brass is the best choice, and needs very little work to use in the Ballard chamber!
Since most of these old guns have a little wear on the extractor, the smaller .524" rim of a 9.3x74 might not be enough to work well. The Sharps .40-90 uses the same rim diameter, so it only needs trimming on the length to work great. Bertram still makes the brass, and it's much cheaper than the 9.3x74R brass also at about $2.50 ea.

[marlinman93]

Glad that bore was good, excellent find good luck with it.

If it had not had an excellent bore, I probably would have passed on it. The rest was a big question mark, and wouldn't have chanced it if the bore was another question.

[Hooker53]

Marlinman, you hit the cash till. Ha. I as yet, don't own a Ballard. YET. Ha. I would love to have one in much less good shape just to put it back on its feet as a winter project. Like I need another project. Ha. I'm thinking for a first Ballard, a #2. Is that bad thinking??

Roy
Hooker53

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Great find! It looks beautiful.

[Reverend Al]

Unfortunately these days up here in Canada with the US / Canadian exchange rate Bertram .40-90 brass totals about $100 per box of 20 after I pay retail plus taxes, so at $5.00 per cartridge case I'm definitely looking at other options! The 9.3x74R brass I bought out of Germany was an absolute steal and buying it in bulk like I did will land here in Canada at a final cost to me of about 35 cents each (Canadian cents too). I'll try forming a few in my .40-90 Ballard and see what happens. If the extractor slips past the rim and I have to knock the fired empties out of the chamber with the wiping rod I can live with that ...


From speaking with a friend who's owned over 200 Ballard Pacifics, and loves the .40-85/.40-90 Ballard cartridge. He told me the extractor will slip off the rim of the 9.3x74R brass, and it's not the best choice. He said the .40-90 Sharps Straight brass is the best choice, and needs very little work to use in the Ballard chamber!
Since most of these old guns have a little wear on the extractor, the smaller .524" rim of a 9.3x74 might not be enough to work well. The Sharps .40-90 uses the same rim diameter, so it only needs trimming on the length to work great. Bertram still makes the brass, and it's much cheaper than the 9.3x74R brass also at about $2.50 ea.

[marlinman93]

Marlinman, you hit the cash till. Ha. I as yet, don't own a Ballard. YET. Ha. I would love to have one in much less good shape just to put it back on its feet as a winter project. Like I need another project. Ha. I'm thinking for a first Ballard, a #2. Is that bad thinking??

Roy
Hooker53

If you're looking for affordable entry level Ballards, a #2 or #3 are the best choices. The #2 is limited to just a few factory chamberings, and will most often be found in either .32 Long or .38 Long. But he #2 has a reversible firing pin, and can shoot both RF and CF by simply flipping the firing pin upside down! The #3 are almost all .22RF, with just a scant few made in .22Win CF. I find more #3 Ballards around $500 than I do #2 Ballards. Bought a #3 with frozen extractor last year at a pawn shop for $300. But it was a PITA to get the extractor out, and cost $75 for a replacement.

[marlinman93]

Unfortunately these days up here in Canada with the US / Canadian exchange rate Bertram .40-90 brass totals about $100 per box of 20 after I pay retail plus taxes, so at $5.00 per cartridge case I'm definitely looking at other options! The 9.3x74R brass I bought out of Germany was an absolute steal and buying it in bulk like I did will land here in Canada at a final cost to me of about 35 cents each (Canadian cents too). I'll try forming a few in my .40-90 Ballard and see what happens. If the extractor slips past the rim and I have to knock the fired empties out of the chamber with the wiping rod I can live with that ...

I'd give them a chance too at that cheap price!

[Hooker53]

Just let me find a #2 for $300 pr $400 it will go home with me. Lol.

Roy
Hooker53

[marlinman93]

Just let me find a #2 for $300 pr $400 it will go home with me. Lol.

Roy
Hooker53

Good luck! Most I see go in the $700-$2000 range. $700 gets one needing work, and $2,000 is a darn nice one. Can't hardly buy an cast #2-#3 action complete for $300-$400 anymore. But a complete #3 occasionally shows for that price, but rare.
I've had wood, and a brand new barrel sitting here for several years, in hopes of finding a good forged action to build up a gun. Couple times I've seen them, but just a little late. A forged Ballard action in good shape goes $1,000 to start, and more with set triggers.

[marlinman93]

I'm going to try reforming 9.3x74R brass for my .40-90 Ballard No. 5 Pacific.

After looking through my old brass, I located 5 pieces of 9.3x74R Norma brass! I ran one into my dies, and dropped it into the chamber of my Pacific. My gun seems to have no issue extracting the reworked 9.3x74R case, so I looked around the web and found that Hornady offers this brass. Bud's Gun Shop has them at $26 per 20, vs. the $50 per 20 for crappy Bertram .40-90SS. I've never had good results with Bertram, so even if the price was equal I'd go with Hornady.
Necks list at .387" OD, and .40-85 is .425", so I'll run all the cases through a .38 expander first, and try one. If that's not enough, I'll use my Lyman M die to expand them further before the final sizing. Might have to anneal the neck/shoulder first, so I don't lose brass to splitting.
I ordered 3 boxes of the Hornady 9.3x74R brass, and will try them with both my 300 gr. RCBS bullets, and my 400 grain Snover Lyman bullets. Hope the rims on the Hornady are the same as the Norma!

[Reverend Al]

Now that's some good news! Glad to hear that the Norma brass was large enough in the rim diameter to extract and I sure hope that it's the same with my Pacific too. I checked the tracking numbers and my 2 big parcels of 9.3x74R brass are still hung up at Canada Customs so I have no idea when they will get to my door ...

:roll:

[marlinman93]

I just hope the Hornady is identical, or slightly larger works too! Got notice my order is scheduled for delivery by Wed. next week, so will jump right on forming it. Going to try one case without annealing, just to see how easy the necks expand to .410", but will probably anneal them anyway.
Looks like 9.3x74R is .005" short, but that might be OK for the price and quality difference over the crappy Bertram brass.

[marlinman93]

I received the Hornady 9.3x74R brass, and it's not what I hoped for! Cartridges of the World lists rim diameter at .525", but the Hornady is .517" diameter. I dropped one in the chamber and the extractor barely catches the rim! If there's even the slightest resistance when extracting a fired case, it will probably slip over the rim.
I am going to fireform 20 of the 60 cases, after expanding the necks to .410" inside diameter. Hopefully fireforming will expand the body of the case above the rim and make extraction more positive. If not, I'll sell the rest, or set them aside and maybe find a use for them elsewhere.

[Reverend Al]

Canada Post tried to deliver my two big boxes full of 9.3x74R brass on Friday, but I was up at the range with a friend for the day and missed them when they came by the house. They'll be delivered to my local Postal Outlet sometime tomorrow and I'll pick them up from there and see what they measure on the rims. They are Norma cases so I'm hoping they'll be large enough ...

[marlinman93]

Looking forward to hearing what the Norma rim size is!

[Reverend Al]

Picked up the 2 boxes full of once fired Norma 9x3x74R brass from my Postal outlet today so I now have 550 rounds to play around with. The rims measure out at the book spec of .525" on several samples I checked this afternoon. Now it's time to see how well they will fire-form into .40-90 Ballard "shooter" cases and if they will extract from my Pacific No. 5 after firing. (Not all that concerned to be honest and I can always knock them out of the chamber with a cleaning rod if necessary ... I'm just shooting an old gun and having fun!)

[marlinman93]

Good news Reverend Al! The 9.3x74R cases fireformed and extracted without a glitch! I did need to be careful chambering to ensure the extractor stayed under the rim, as it can slip past during chambering, and get stuck above the rim!
But it worked perfectly, and rewarded me with some unusually fine groups during fire forming! I have an RCBS 300 gr. bullet I cast up for my Rigby Ballard, and it's the right size for the Pacific. So I loaded up 20.0 grs. of 2400, and expanded the 9.3 case necks to accept the .411" bullet. Lubed them with a beeswax, Crisco, and STP mix, and made up 40 cases.
The Pacific shot 3" groups with barrel sights during fire forming, and I didn't even try the long range vernier sight. Had a lot of fun shooting, as did my 3 shooting partners, and everyone had equally accurate results! The .40-85 Pacific has now edged out two other candidates for my Nov. elk hunt! I will reload 20 of the fireformed cases, and leave the tang sight home. The barrel sights will work great out to over 100 yds. for elk!

[Reverend Al]

Great news! I haven't had a chance to do anything with mine yet since I came down with a bout of the crud that is making the rounds locally. Just haven't felt up to doing anything in the reloading room or up at the range. Maybe next week with some luck ... :-(

[maxreloader]

You two are making me want a Ballard now! :drinks:

[marlinman93]

Great news! I haven't had a chance to do anything with mine yet since I came down with a bout of the crud that is making the rounds locally. Just haven't felt up to doing anything in the reloading room or up at the range. Maybe next week with some luck ... :-(

I ran the 9.3's through my .380 neck expander first, and then into my .40-70SS .410" expander. Then put a light bell on the mouth, and I primed and charged the cases. Seated the bullets using the .40-70SS dies, with a slight crimp, just enough to hold a 300 gr. bullet from moving. They had a slight wasp waist to the case that easily formed out at the first firing.
They actually extracted better after fireforming than before! Guessing once they fully fit the chamber it kept them from slipping away from the extractor as they did prior to forming.

[marlinman93]

You two are making me want a Ballard now! :drinks:

How have you not wanted a Ballard previously? ;)

[maxreloader]

Single shots have been growing on me lately, and the Ballards look very SEXY!

[marlinman93]

Single shots have been growing on me lately, and the Ballards look very SEXY!

I'm biased, but I personally think they are the classiest looking of all the single shot actions.

[sharps4590]

Ballard's are nice....sexy is a good word. Sharps, Ideal actions, 1885 Win., Haenel/Aydt, Buchel, kiplauf and even some Martini's all appeal to me. The only one that doesn't excite me is rolling blocks but even a few of them catch my eye.

[marlinman93]

Ballard's are nice....sexy is a good word. Sharps, Ideal actions, 1885 Win., Haenel/Aydt, Buchel, kiplauf and even some Martini's all appeal to me. The only one that doesn't excite me is rolling blocks but even a few of them catch my eye.

I love almost all the old pre WWI era single shot rifles and actions! Some more than others! The Rolling Blocks in a factory Sporting Rifle are beautiful to my eye. Military make great donor actions for a sporting rifle, butt not into military guns regardless of who made them personally. Considering that Remington is the oldest production rifle maker in the USA today, it's hard for me not to love those old Rolling Blocks!

[maxreloader]

I passed on a pretty beat-up rolling block this past weekend. Best I could tell it was an Egyptian in 43 spanish and needed more love than I could provide it. The seller wanted $120. It was missing the forend wood and front sight. ...and the search continues!

A question... does the rifling (is it supposed to) continue all the way to the crown on these old rifles or do they just get worn-away? This one had almost smooth-bore about a 1/2" into the muzzle...

[maxreloader]

I also have a lead on a "cadet" Springfield Trapdoor in 45-70. I need to do my homework because I only know enough to get in trouble with these single-shots. The guy wants me to come take a look and make an offer on it. :)

[marlinman93]

I passed on a pretty beat-up rolling block this past weekend. Best I could tell it was an Egyptian in 43 spanish and needed more love than I could provide it. The seller wanted $120. It was missing the forend wood and front sight. ...and the search continues!

A question... does the rifling (is it supposed to) continue all the way to the crown on these old rifles or do they just get worn-away? This one had almost smooth-bore about a 1/2" into the muzzle...

Yes rifling indeed went all the way through on them when new. I'd buy all the Rolling Block rifles I could find at $120 if the actions are good! I'd strip the parts down, and stockpile the actions for later projects!
I've seen some old guns counterbored at the muzzle to get rid of bad rifling there, and create a new crown. Some were done this way back when they were still in military use to keep them serviceable a little longer. I had a Czech Mauser in 8x57 that had the barrel counterbored the last 3", and it shot very well!

[marlinman93]

I also have a lead on a "cadet" Springfield Trapdoor in 45-70. I need to do my homework because I only know enough to get in trouble with these single-shots. The guy wants me to come take a look and make an offer on it. :)

Well depending on condition, it could be a good one to own. Trapdoors aren't known for strength or beauty, but certainly have a loyal following.