Blackhorn 209 failure to ignite

[Edward]

I have used BH 209 for several yrs in inlines and have used it exclusively in my 2 TC Hawken 45/50 cal GM barrels with Mag Spark ignition for long range target,,my problem started when I purchased 2
10 oz bottles of BH209 for developing hunting loads for several TC slow twist barrels ,1-54 /54cal,1-48 /50cal, 1-48 50 cal,and 1-64 H=A under hammer . All of these converted to
Mag Spark 209 ignition and immediately experienced failure to fire or watched the ball launch 30 ft down range,(at least easy to recycle).No matter what is used ,patched RB mini,Lees REAL or TC maxi same failure .What I did 1st , clean every barrel /inspect with bore light (super clean) ,130 LBs compressed air at nipple end and everything clean , try shooting and no go (a real confidence builder) so got in touch with Blackhorn .Their rep (Don) heard what I had done and could not add anything else to suggest other than to say that the batch number was their latest and to try Magnum primers as that is what they use for quality control tests and Fed or CCI 209 primers .I pointed out to Don the label clearly states use REGULAR 209 primers and suggests CCI brand which is what I already use so long story short ,does anyone use 10+ grains of 2/3F 1st to to light up 70/80grs of BH 209 ?
I am ready to go back to traditional black and /caps but would like to see if there is a cure for the Blackhorn failure to fire as I like it for long range GM barrels ,why it works in them I do not know! Thanks in advance for the Help/Ed

[Omnivore]

If the powder isn't lighting off from a 209 primer, then something is very, very wrong. Did you actually look through the flash channel or just blow air through it assuming it would clear any obstruction such as a metal chip? Approximately 99.999 times out of a hundred, if your cap ignites and your powder doesn't, you have oil in the flash channel and/or in the breech. No matter how "clean" it looks, there's a big ol' bunch of oil in there. Swab it out. The other 0.001 percent of the time, it means there is a hard blockage in the flash channel.

I would imagine that peeing down the bore, or into the powder, immediately before loading wouldn't help, but I could be wrong.

If you're going to carry two kinds of powder (the one that works, used to ignite the one that doesn't work) then why not just use all black powder and leave the fake powder at home for fertilizing the garden or other such?

if you touch the hottest part of an acetylene welding torch flame to this substitute powder, done it ignite then?

Sorry for all the sarcasm. It's just that I stopped fooling around much with the subs after discovering that black powder always works.

Next I'm going to be told that you "...can't get black powder around here" and then I'm going to point out that 99 out of a hundred of us order our black powder and have it delivered to our doorsteps. Then you're going to say that the hazmat fee is just too much, and then I'll have to point out that now we're splitting hairs because you can spread that 25 dollar fee over several pounds and the fact that you don't pay sales tax means you're not really paying more for real powder on line than you pay locally for the fake stuff.

[johnson1942]

i suspect your flash channels have oil in it or isnt real clear. i never ever have 209 fail but i use regular primers and not the ones for muzzleloaders. my inlines have breechplugs for 209 powder as some inlines dont ignite it with out a aftermarket breech plug for it. try popping off just primers. i can always tell when the channel is clear as the sound changes and you can tell by the sound that it is clear. also on my side locks i drill a 1/32 hole into the breech at the back of it. it is on the right side as i hold the rifle to the shoulder at a 45 degree angle as you look at it from that position. this allows the fire from the primer to push out the air behind the bullet and the fire doesnt have to compress that air to reach the powder. that little hole makes for much faster ignition. i also just loaded 200, 38 special cowboy loads with 209 powder and 100, 45 long colt cowboy loads. my cowboy revolvers are very very accurate with the 209 powder. sorry your having problems, hope they work them selves out.

[Hamish]

I use 5 grains of black with Blackhorn. Works well, but you give up the "no rust" aspect.

[Edward]

No blockage in the flash channel / no oil/and no I don"t pee down the barrel .I thought I was pretty clear on cleaning but you must have missed the part where there are(COUNT THEM) 3 separate barrels doing the same thing ! And I do not Know about you but @ $40.00 per 10 Oz bottle I have a cheaper fertilizer in mind ,maybe some of what your shoveling !

[OverMax]

Just saying:
Expensive lesson. Only one item left un-serviced.
Perhaps your Mag Spark nipple requires its orifice looked at. Left fouled. It is possible for such a small orifice to inhibit a 209s flash.

[451whitworth]

are your projectiles tight? BH209 likes tight fitting projectiles for proper ignition

[johnson1942]

451 whitworth has a very very good point.

[M-Tecs]

Blackhorn 209 is the only sub it still use. I love it. I haven't experienced any issues with it in my Green Mountain 50 in a Renegade or in my 54 Renegade with a TC barrel. Both have Mag Spark's in them.

[Edward]

I appreciate the help offered and have been trying some of the suggestions ,today the 45 H+A under hammer fired both times with BL209 (then the Magspark stripped threads) and that was done for the day.Just chased threads and installed with Loctite /fixed maybe .The TC 50 was the winner 50/100 yd with 20 gr @2f + 60gr BL 209 fired with cci cap ,tomorrow back to the under hammer ,which is shooting a 450 RCBS 280gr miniball that I knurled ,needs a starter to get there and the 50 shoot well all afternoon with the same 20 2F +60 BH209 behind that S+W 501 PP boolit ! Both projectiles are what I consider tight /snug fit over 2 waxed fiber wads/overpowder card . Seems the duplex load will get me thru these 2 bottles and maybe find the problem .Again thanks for the suggestions/Ed

[mooman76]

The problem seems to have started with the new BH209. You might try buying another bottle and make sure it is a different lot.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Did you clean the carbon build up out of that mag spark? I only got 7 shots with my mag spark before it ripped off my rifle. I'd suggest getting a rifle compatible for shooting BH209.

[rodwha]

Did you clean the carbon build up out of that mag spark? I only got 7 shots with my mag spark before it ripped off my rifle. I'd suggest getting a rifle compatible for shooting BH209.

I'm curious about this. I'm not that familiar with BH209, but I cannot say I've seen this problem addressed before.

What exactly is a compatible rifle?

johnson1942 has mentioned to me a few times that BH209 is something I should consider in a Lyman rifle for longer range shooting so it's something I've certainly thought about, and from what I gathered a MagSpark nipple was all that was needed.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Its made for closed breech systems like a TC Encore, TC Omega, CVA optima,Wolf,Accura V2 - MR, with the Blackhorn209 breech plug, Traditions Inlines *Break action with 209 breech plug*.

The mag spark just may not be reliable enough for BH209 to set off consistently.

Also depends on how snug the projectile is for BH209 to set off.

CCI 209 Magnum, Federal 209a, Winchester W209, All are reliable primers with the rifles mentioned above.

[M-Tecs]

The Mag Spark and Blackhorn 209 comb. is working very well in my sidelocks. I have shot it down to about 20 degrees. BH209 is a bulk smokeless powder with some smoke added. It is very clean burning.

http://www.warrencustomoutdoor.com/mag-spark.html

http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/ignition-guidelines/

[Edward]

I have reliably shot Blackhorn 209 in my TC 54/50/45 (6 barrels to date) 2 GM long range 1inch barrels and a H+A 45 UNDER HAMMER with no problem till purchasing the 2 bottles mentioned .
Perhaps Frontier Muzzleloader should not bother to comment on this thread as he has little experience on the subject . I will always listen to folks with experience on my issue .Tomorrow I get to try Johnson 1942 suggestion ,I"m thinking it will fix me up with BL 209 and will post results if the weather isn't to wet /Thanks Ed

[M-Tecs]

I have reliably shot Blackhorn 209 in my TC 54/50/45 (6 barrels to date) 2 GM long range 1inch barrels and a H+A 45 UNDER HAMMER with no problem till purchasing the 2 bottles mentioned .


If it was mine I would call:

Western Powders, Inc.
PO Box 158
Top of Yellowstone Hill
Miles City, MT 59301
406-234-0422
Fax: 406-234-0430

and have them replace it.

[Edward]

I did as stated at the start of the post ,Don the rep stated there is nothing wrong with their powder ,nothing wrong with their Quality control ,SSOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo it must be something wrong on my end Though I see a bunch of reasons posted on their website for failure to fire,so I guess I"m not alone in the complaint dept . Just funny this just happened, never a problem before
and the barrels have never been cleaner and none of the conditions listed apply [smilie=b:

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Well I have shot well over 60 POUNDS of the stuff so I do believe I have experience.

Especially with the mag spark.
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/Blackhorn209/DSCN1593.jpg
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/Blackhorn209/DSCN1594.jpg
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/Blackhorn209/DSCN1598.jpg
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/Blackhorn209/DSCN1599.jpg
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/Blackhorn209/DSCN1601.jpg

Good luck talking to blackhorn209 about it since it is stated to NOT use it in a sidelock. They will not support using it even with the 209 adapter.

[bubba.50]

I make no claims to bein' the sharpest knife in the drawer or brightest crayon in the box but, I fail to see what an improperly installed or overtightened or otherwise abused mag-spark unit has to do with the OP's problem of blackhorn 209 not goin' bang in his gun.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

LOL Bubba, it was not my fault, it was the machining of the mag spark that failed and the owner actually called me to apologize and explained what happened and that he was going to start making them again.

I offered my help above to the original post. Its now the powder, its either the primers or improper cleaning care.Improper cleaning of the 209 breech plug even can cause misfires with bh209 or very poor accuracy.

[bubba.50]

so, you had a bum mag-spark unit. from my understandin' of the OP's posts HIS mag-spark is workin' fine, HIS primers are goin' off. so the problem lies somewhere 'tween there & the bullet.

some have suggested carbon chunks in the flash-channel. maybe so.

some have suggested goo or soup in the combustion chamber wettin' the powder. maybe so.

some have suggested mayhaps he's pushin' said crud down his barrel on loadin' or wipin' 'tween shots. maybe so.

still others have suggested a bad batch of powder. maybe so.

still don't see how postin' a bunch of pix of yer busted unit has anything to do with the problem or any possible solution to it.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

There is no crud with blackhorn209, just a thin silky soot left in the barrel after each shot. Carbon build up is the biggest issue.

[koehlerrk]

Ok, back to the OP.

Primer popped. It had enough pressure to shove the ball out the end of the barrel. Repeatedly. That doesn't sound like an obstructed flash hole.

Sounds like a bad batch of powder. I'd try lighting some on a plate... see if it burns at all.

And I'd be calling the manufacturer. Especially if you've had good ignition with this powder previously.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

good luck lighting it off on a plate, it doesn't burn easily like black powder. Actually, to give you all an idea, you can take BH209 put it into water and it will not melt down into anything, its water proof which makes it killer to ignite without the properly ignition source. Could be the mag spark adapter also has changed the size of their flash hole and that's limiting the amount of gasses that actually reach the powder. It is not your typical black powder, its a whole new beast.

[Edward]

(Range report) Rainy day ,but Johnson 1942 suggested drilling a 1/32 hole in front of the Mag Spark to allow air to exit when loading to improve ignition /improved combustion and lock time . I did that last night and got to the range this morning and am pleased to say ,shot for 2 plus hrs and had (ZERO) misfires! 80gr BH209 lit up and pushed that S+W paper patched 501 FN pistol bullet 50/100/200 yd with serious thump power .I will be doing this to (ALL MY BARRELS) no matter what propellant I use .I got confident enough that the rest of the day till dark was spent harassing bears ,they were lucky they stayed home . Thanks to most everyone ,especially Johnson 1942[smilie=w:

[rodwha]

:2_high5:

[bubba.50]

glad yer finally on the right track & that things are lookin' up for ya.