Gearing Up For 7.62x25 Tokarev

[Ricochet]

Having a CZ-52 and expecting a Russian Tokarev shortly, I decided it was time to start loading for this round and putting some real boolits through it. Midway's currently got pretty good sale prices on the steel 3-die sets for both 7.63 Mauser and 7.62 Tokarev, and on Starline's 7.62 Tokarev brass which has a shorter neck than the original. (They say that's to avoid necks tearing off with hot loads in the CZ-52.) I didn't know what differences there might actually be between the Lee Mauser and Tokarev die sets, so I just went ahead and ordered the Tokarev labeled set to go with the Starline Tok cases. Threw in a 2-hole Lee TL314-90-SWC mould to see how that works. Haven't seen anyone mention loading these. They look a lot like the truncone boolits I like in other pistols, with a slight shoulder. I've got a jug of AA #5 around here somewhere that ought to be good stuff for loading them up.

I've GOT to do something about that CZ-52's wild brass flinging if I'm going to be successful reloading for it, though. Needs a way heavier recoil spring, I think. (And I hate that because it's already a real hassle putting the barrel back into the slide after cleaning. If anyone knows a slick trick for doing this, please share it!)

I'm eager to see how that Tokarev shoots!

[Ricochet]

Small update, I went to Lee's site just now, looked up the 3-die sets for .30 Mauser and 7.62 Tokarev, went to their service parts pages, and compared the parts for the sets. Looks to me like the only difference is that the sizing die body is different for the two. Wonder what that means dimensionally?

[Shepherd2]

Putting the CZ52 barrel back in the slide is pretty easy. I put a brass punch in the hole on the underside of the barrel and push the barrel and recoil forward in the slide. When the rollers align with the roller cutouts in the slide the barrel drops right in. Only takes a second. I saw that on the net somewhere when I got my CZ52 a couple years ago.

I put a heavier recoil spring in my CZ52 in hopes of retarding the brass flinging but it didn't help much. Now it only flings it 9 yards instead of 10.

[9.3X62AL]

There IS a difference between the 30 Mauser and 7.62 x 25 Tokarev sizer in the RCBS dies. The Tok die sizes the shoulder about .020" shorter than the Mauser die. Mauser nominal case length is .990". Tok case length is .970". If Starline brass is short, try 30 Mauser brass through the Tokarev sizer and trim as needed. EVERY BIT of neck length is precious with this caliber.

[45 2.1]

There IS a difference between the 30 Mauser and 7.62 x 25 Tokarev sizer in the RCBS dies. The Tok die sizes the shoulder about .020" shorter than the Mauser die. Mauser nominal case length is .990". Tok case length is .970". If Starline brass is short, try 30 Mauser brass through the Tokarev sizer and trim as needed. EVERY BIT of neck length is precious with this caliber.

I've shot lead boolit loads made from 223 cases in RCBS 30 Mauser dies in the Tok, Broomhandles and CZ since the late 80s with no problem in any of them, with no headspace problems, provided I turned the neck down far enough. Case neck length is needed here indeed.

[Ricochet]

Actually I probably should have gone with the Mauser set as the shoulder moves forward quite a bit on firing in my CZ-52's chamber. Rather like .303 cases in typical Lee-Enfield chambers. Of course, I can just screw the die down as far as necessary to just clear. If the necks are shorter than standard, though, I may not have much neck left on the fired cases!

The dimensional tables in Barnes' Cartridges of the World and Lee's Modern Reloading show small differences between the Tokarev and Mauser cartridges that I wouldn't think outside the normal production tolerances. Not as much as .02" in length, more like .002". (I don't have the books in front of me.) Starline reportedly shortened the neck on their Tok brass because they claimed it was necessary to prevent the necks from pulling off when fired with Czech-level loads. Sounds like a metallurgical problem. They did much the same thing when they were making 7.62x38R Nagant brass (which they've told me they have no plans to manufacture again.)

Several sites suggest that Tokarev simply used the 7.63mm Mauser cartridge in his pistol, as then loaded for the Mauser, because Mauser pistols were already in widespread use in the USSR. The hotter loads were developed for subguns, and the Czechs standardized on the subgun loads for their pistols as well. What I think is that the .30 Borchardt, .30/7.63mm Mauser, 7.62mm Tokarev, 7.65mm Mannlicher and maybe another one or two others I can't think of now are all just different loadings of the old .30 Borchardt. (Which got its body shortened to the .30 Luger, and then got opened up and shortened again to the 9mm Luger, with the overall cartridge profile closely matched to the .30 Luger's.) Any dimensional differences resulted from the lack of uniform standards and manufacturing tolerances.

Pressure specs are interesting on these cartridges. Lee's book, 2nd edition, lists the same loads for both Mauser and Tokarev with pressures held down to around 25,000 PSI. A few years back Accurate Arms tested a bunch of different European Tokarev ammo from different sources and reportedly found it consistently loaded around 41-42,000 PSI (the lone exception being a Russian load at 31,000), so they issued load data for the 42,000 limit, but later they recalled that data and lowered the pressure. What they have on their site now gives pressures in the same ~33,000 PSI range as 9mm Luger. Seems reasonable to me. Mausers, Tokarevs and CZ-52s have all often been made in 9mm and I can't imagine that would be a dangerous pressure level for any of them. (The CZ-52 was originally planned to be a 9mm pistol till the Russians demanded it be made in 7.62mm Tokarev to standardize with the rest of the Soviet bloc.)

Shepherd, thanks for the info on reassembling the CZ-52. One thing I have trouble with is getting the barrel to go through the bushing when sliding the barrel forward with a tool as described. (I've done it with the magazine lip.) I have to insert a cleaning rod down the bore and press it against a table to lift the muzzle end of the barrel so it can slide into the bushing as I push the barrel forward in the inverted slide, else it just hangs on the top lip of the bushing. Lets me effectively have three hands. It's still tricky!

[Ricochet]

Here's an article I was looking for that addresses the similarities/differences between the Mauser and Tokarev rounds: http://www.1896mauser.com/ammo.htm

[Ricochet]

Got to do some throat slugging. Cast up some of those Lee TL314-90-SWCs. In the CZ-52, at the as-cast .314" diameter, one will push in from the rear right to the end of the chamber (.988" from the breech face) and stop abruptly with its shoulder abutted against it. Doesn't wedge tightly in place. I suspect a chamber condition similar to my K-31 with a sharp square shoulder just past the case mouth.

Haven't yet received the Tokarev.

[leftiye]

Ric, My CZ52 has a tapered throat and leade. (Did a chamber cast) My groove is .314. Sounds like your chamber might be even larger than mine. I use a round nose (Lyman 120 gr. gas check - I forget the mold number) that I've lapped and beagled out to .316 and it fits right into the leade.

[Ricochet]

I've just got to slug this thing and see what I've got. :)

That 120 grainer is a pretty heavy boolit.

Ever try the Soup Can? I have a mould for that (six-hole GB) and use it in the Nagant revolver. I've seen some loads online for that in 7.62x25.

[leftiye]

Rick, I've heard that before. This case has so much potential that I can't take the lighter boolits seriously. Wish someone would make a gun that could handle it full out! I've got a lyman 311316 that's very similar to the soop can (I think Lee copied it). Use it in my 327 mag.

[Ricochet]

Was out shooting it with my boy till it got dark, with surplus ammo. What a blast! Before I shoot any of my new Starline brass, I'm putting a heavier recoil spring in, though. Throws the brass about 40 feet at a 45° angle to the right rear with the surplus. (Yugo 1958, I think. Maybe it's Romanian, I forget.)

As for the reassembly, I got it back together in seconds with bare hands and the magazine tonight. Just takes practice.

I don't think the cartridge is too big for a double stack magazine, if you have good size hands. Wish somebody would make one like that.

[Trapshooter]

I picked up a CZ-52 a month or so ago, and loaded some 32 pistol bullets (Lyman 313249's, about 84 grains) with a 30 Mauser start load from the Lyman cast book. Shot pretty well, and with the lower velocity, the empty case velocity was also reduced. Still lost a few cases. I've loaded up a few test rounds with a 98 grain 313226, and I also have the Lee TL314-90-SWC. I didn't know how the Lee would feed, so I've stuck with round noses so far. When there is a break in the heat, humidity, work, and mosquitos I'll give the heavier bullets a try with a more robust powder charge. With the 30 Mauser loads, it is a very pleasant plinker. I tried a couple different kinds of milsurp too. Still not bad to shoot, and you don't feel so bad about the lost brass! I was also considering trying the Lee soup can and Lyman 311359 for some heavier loads. I've got a line on a Tokarev, but haven't added it to the collection (accumulation?) yet.

Trapshooter