38 Special +P for CC

[roysha]

I am looking for a LW revolver for CC. It seems the S&W 642 (I'm an S&W FAN and MUCH prefer revolvers) chambered for +P is very economically priced and just what I'm looking for but I have read so much about being under gunned with the 38 Special, even in +P loadings, that I thought I would see what you folks thought. Given that most confrontations seem to be at relatively close range, I should think the 38 +P would be at least, acceptable. Yeah, I know, "what is your life worth" will be surely mentioned by someone, unfortunately there are also financial limitations that enter into the equation, and I believe even a sharp stick beats nothing.

[johniv]

I find the S&W 442 and 642 both easy to carry and accurate. As for the effectiveness of the round, do a search on this board for "history of the 38 FBI load"
John

[Walkingwolf]

Unless you are carrying a howitzer you are under-gunned. Seriously whatever makes you feel comfortable. Myself I have no problem with carrying 38 spl even in the standard load.

[Earlwb]

There are likely more people in the world carrying a .38 special revolver than any other gun available. it is very common. There isn't any problem with carrying one. The wonder 9mm doesn't have any more power over the .38 special. The only advantage to a 9mm is maybe the larger magazine capacity, if you get one of the larger pistols. Where the .38 has a 5 or 6 shot cylinder the 9mm can carry upwards of 18 or so rounds. But there are some larger revolvers with 8 shot cylinders too. Generally for self defense, I feel if you need more than 5 or 6 shots, you are in trouble. Practice often so you can be able to hit the target. A bunch of misses doesn't do any good. All that extra cartridge capacity in a 9mm doesn't do the shooter any good if they cannot hit the target either.

[35remington]

If the .38 is underpowered, so is the 9mm out of shorty barrels. I believe either will suffice and carry a 638 myself in hotter weather. Its absolute reliability is reassuring and loads may be had where you'll decide they are a little too much controllability wise. More power has downsides. Some of the Plus P handloads with a 158 using Power Pistol hit 920-940 fps. That ought to be enough for you.

A happy middle ground is the way to go, with a 158 approximating 850 for the reload. Up front are 148 WC. loaded to 780 fps or so. This is controllable, deep penetrating and
more effective than any other solid bullet. I am an adherent of the full charge wadcutter per Ed Harris.

The Speer GD 135 is highly feted but its failure to make the FBI minimums makes me a little uncomfortable.

[35remington]

A nine comparable in size to a snubby 38 is a seven or eight shot gun....a far cry from 15 or 17.

[Walkingwolf]

A nine comparable in size to a snubby 38 is a seven or eight shot gun....a far cry from 15 or 17.

There are some double stack compacts that have at least 10, but if a person hits their mark they only need a few.

[376Steyr]

A 2" .38 +P in your pocket beats the heck out of a .45 sitting in a drawer at home.

[NC_JEFF]

I really like the 642. No simpler function can be had and I have extreme confidence in a .38 round.
After that 5th shot, if he isn't down he's not going down. Your left with battering him with a plastic frame or driving the stainless barrel 1 1\2" deep into the skull. ��

[Kestrel4k]

S&W Airlite Ti checking in; it's my only CC handgun and I love it.
I have much more confidence in modern .38Spl JHP's from a 2" bbl than the ancient 158LRN from a 6" bbl.

Edit: even my 'house gun' is a 4" bbl S&W M64 in .38Spl. I have complete confidence in the ammo, and being able to afford leaving a ~$300 gun outside the safe 24/7 is a plus.

[35remington]

The problem with 10 shot double stack 9's is "fatty" syndrome from slide to butt. I do not consider them the concealability equivalent of a five shot aluminum 38.....said by a guy that's carried both. The very small butt of a snubbie "prints" less IWB.

[KCSO]

With the 38 bullet shape and where you hit are more important then ultimate velocity. When they were available the Nyclad 158 gr hp load was my favourite and with it I killed hogs cows and deer with no problem and had confidence it would have done the same to an aggressor. You need to first be able to control the gun and to be able to place repeat shots. Don't fall for the hype that a 38 won't do the job, just put the bullet where it needs to go.

[OptimusPanda]

As far as I'm concerned the 5 shots of .38 (+p or not) from a snubby are just fine. If that isn't enough for where I'm going, I probably shouldn't go (or that one day carry something else).

[dverna]

Well......the 9mm has more energy than the .38. The Kahr CW 9 is thinner and holds 7 rounds. It will also shoot +P ammunition giving it even more energy than the .38. It may cost less too.

Read the ballistics charts. Many people are uninformed.

Not many here, including me, have any idea what will be enough gun....depending on the situation. But more energy is better than less if you can handle it.

Ruger makes its LCR revolver in 9mm if you want a revolver. It is obviously more powerful than its .38+P cousin as it had a steel cylinder. The .38+P is aluminum. The moon clips make reloads efficient as well.

[DougGuy]

A friend owns and operates a gun store in Virginia. A felon out on bond from two counts of armed robbery picked his store to rob for bail money to repay his gf who bailed him out. Upon drawing his shiny little Iver Johnson .25 ACP semi automatic, the store owner heard a loud click and turned to see the perp pointing his pistol in his face. A struggle ensued with the perp eventually coming behind the counter and -almost- getting the owner in a headlock when the owner drew the S&W airweight from his back pocket and emptied it into the side of the rather large perp's torso.

When the responders got there and after they did their investigation and decided to remove the perp's body, several bullets fell out of the leather jacket and onto the floor. The Iver Johnson semi automatic was found under one of the sales counters, live round in the pipe, and safety applied. It is assumed that the loud click heard at the beginning of the attack was the sound of the safety being applied, not removed.

Several days later, detectives came to the shop to ask the owner what he used that penetrated fully such a large torso. He had carried Federal Hydrashok +P+ alternated with PMC Ultramags. They were very interested in procuring some of the same ammo for their snubbies.

It really depends how close you are with a snubbie. Up against the rib cage a blank will do terminal damage.

[jeepyj]

One of my favorite cc's is a 637 equipped from the factory with a set of Galco clip grips. It is easly carried in several areas without a holster. In the cold season I carry in my pocket using the clip covered by my sweatshirt and sometimes in the small of the back inside the belt line. I have a high level of confidence with a 38 special revolver and won't likely change it to a slide gun anytime soon.(I like revolvers) If one prefers the grips can be changed to traditional to accommodate a standard holster.
jeepyj

[35remington]

I have read the ballistic charts.....I've also shot both shorty nines and 38's and handloaded for both. I have no illusions a nine is much different than the 38 when both have short barrels. If you want over 1000 fps from a 158 out of a snub look at Buffalo Bore's version of Plus P hollowpoint.

I consider myself well informed when I state there ain't much difference. Because there ain't, not because I am uninformed.

Since 9 and 38 are so similar when fired from shorter barrels I would pick a lighter 38 over a heavier 9 if both were snubbies. No misfire inducing moon clip seals the deal. I would rather load rounds with a speed strip or speedloader than use a moon clip as they cannot survive being carried in a pocket, are extremely bendy and prone to misfiring or tying up the gun when bent. A speed loader like the HKS beats them all hollow when it comes to holding up under any amount of concealed carry use.

Moon clips belong in Jerry Miculek speed shooting videos, not as a reload for a piece that may have to save your life.

Given the small concealed carry pistol MUST work as it is likely a desperate situation when you need to employ it, and given the snubbie 38 excels any small 9mm autoloader when it comes to stone cold, gotta go bang no matter what reliability (speaking of the rounds already in the gun).....choosing a small 38 is nowhere near foolish as a choice.

[Petrol & Powder]

The snubnose 38 Special is an excellent SD tool.

The way people talk about handgun cartridges never ceases to amaze me.
None of them of great!
Handguns are selected as SD tools because it's nearly impossible to go through daily life with a shotgun held at port arms 24/7.
Now, some handguns cartridges can improve your odds of quickly stopping an attacker but that doesn't mean one type is an instant death ray and another would be just annoying.
The 158 grain +P LSWCHP has a very good track record of stopping people. It's not perfect, but no handgun round is.

The question is, "can the projectile reliably penetrate deep enough in order to damage something important enough, to stop the threat" ?
The answer for the 38 Special +P is, "yes". Are there better rounds available that can improve those odds? Sure if you are willing to carry a bigger/heavier gun. Most of us don't care to wag a Ruger Alaskan around all day long and we've already ruled out the shotgun. That leaves a small handgun as our best option.

Human beings are fairly fragile creatures when you get right down to it. The goal isn't to kill your attacker but rather to stop your attacker. A .22 short is capable of killing but that will do you little good if your adversary dies 10 minutes after he hacks you to death with a machete. A 44 magnum that grazes your opponent 10 seconds before he shoots you in the head with a .22 short will not help either.

IF a projectile is capable of reliably penetrating deep enough to reach something vital and has enough energy to damage that vital piece of anatomy enough to stop the threat; it's as good as anything. Now, some projectiles do improve the odds of that reliably occurring but I'll take what I can get in that time of need.

[35remington]

Well said.

[cainttype]

The 642 is a fine choice for concealed carry. Very few firearms can be carried as easily, and as often, as a compact 38 and provide comparable performance potential.
The 38 Special compacts have a long history of being favored for deep concealment for good reason, by people that are very aware of all the other available options.

[Blackwater]

KCSO and Doug Guy nailed it. A snubby .38 CAN and WILL do the job IF the bullets are applied to the right spot. I used to carry a M-60 in an ankle holster for a while. Never liked that method of carry, but that was my 2nd gun, or "hideout." But I worked up a +P+ load with some 158 gr. soft lead bullets under the Taurus brand, that had the deepest hollow point I've ever seen. Narrow, but deep. Tried that load in some wet newsprint and the penetration was impressive, as was the expansion. Now. I'd probably load the Lyman 358156 or 359429 over as healthy a charge of powder as I could find for my gun's pressure rating, and let those flat points and bullet mass do the work they were intended to do, and have done for a very long time now.

A snubby .38 is ballistically very similar to the .380 auto in non-+P loadings, but the .38 handles a good bit heavier bullets, and especially at non+p pressure levels, you'll wind up with a lot more penetration, reliability and "shock effect" (if you can call it that at these velocities?) from the heavier bullets than you will with the lighter, supposedly faster ones. With the lighter cast bullets, or even jacketed, non-+P loads just don't let them run fast enough from that short little 2" barrel to make up for the heavier bullets' greater reliability in penetrating. And you never know when some 400 lb. crack/meth head might take offense at your breathing or presence, and in that case, you've pretty much got to hit the CNS anyway, and if you do that, even a .22 RF will git-r-done and let you go home instead of the morgue or hospital.

Doesn't matter whether you're shooting game or aggressors. Bullet placement is 90% of the solution. If you cast, keep casting and reloading until you get to where you can put them all in the @ 5" X-ring of a K-5 silhouette target, and if you just stay calm and don't get rattled, and use the sights unless at less than 10 ft., you should do fine. Biggest aid in that is good grips that fit your hand, and place your finger where the crook of your trigger finger just reaches the trigger, and the grips have at least some filler behind the trigger guard, filling in that space so your trigger finger can come straight back more easily and naturally.

Good, well fitting grips and enough practice to get to where you naturally and instinctively point the gun well at short ranges, and can keep all shots inside that 5" X-ring, and you'll do very well. No man's invincible, but that's about as close as we can come.

[35remington]

Some of the small 9 autoloaders are in the same ballpark. The trade off is more capacity for less reliability. Whether two or three shots is a good trade off for more uncertainty that the gun will go bang is a personal choice.

[jeepyj]

Petrol & Powder, Nicely written post.

[dverna]

In a short barrel, the higher pressure round will have an advantage over lower pressure rounds. Force = mass x acceleration.

The small semi-auto pistol will have a longer barrel than a snubbie.

Any caliber will kill with a good shot Any caliber will not with a poor shot.

Bullet type counts

The revolver will be more reliable but slower to reload.

You should make the choice you believe is the best for you.

[35remington]

No....the snubbie's barrel length also must include the cylinder as acceleration takes place there. By autoloader measurement the snubbie's barrel is barrel AND cylinder length combined.

Measure travel from bullet base to end of barrel. Then try to tell me the short autoloader barrel has more length for acceleration....it does not. It has less.

Lower pressure rounds of large case capacity can equal higher pressure rounds of much smaller case capacity. And they do.

[OptimusPanda]

I love a good caliber war so I'll throw this in the mix. http://www.ballistics101.com/9mm_vs_.38special.php

[cainttype]

...Up front are 148 WC. loaded to 780 fps or so. This is controllable, deep penetrating and more effective than any other solid bullet. I am an adherent of the full charge wadcutter per Ed Harris...

A well known testament to the versatility afforded by the pocket-sized 38... Some even increase the full-wadcutter to weights hovering around the 200 grain mark.
Imagine a big, soft, "Hollow-based" wadcutter loaded backwards... after forming a slight nose ogive to aid loading/reloading... Nevermind imagining, I'll repost a few pics from the past.

This HP is nearly double it's original diameter, measuring .690, and retains 99% of it's original weight of 193 grains.
I'd suggest that is a ballpark no pocket-nine automatic will ever venture into.

[OptimusPanda]

These 124gr HSTs came close at .680" from a 3" barrel. Did over 12" penetration too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ld5jpsaDjbA&index=21&list=PLgNSGOEQko_M90AMdRCDMgd-w4Yozc27i

[35remington]

OP's linked post is a study in cherry picking data that supports a biased viewpoint. Perhaps someone should ask why he did not select Buffalo Bore's +p 158 LSWCHP ammo? Or would that have invalidated the point he was trying to make and therefore got left out?

It would have, in fact, done just that. Ignore such biased data, especially since it has little to do with actual ballistics obtained from short barrels.

He even makes a straw man argument at the end of his dissertation to make his point seem more valid than it actually is. That was somewhat of a waste of bandwidth.

[Dan Cash]

A .38 with a heavy bullet, 170-200 grains is a serious piece of work and not too hard to shoot. I would be cautious of light weight revolvers as they can be very unpleasant to shoot and you must practice. As far as ammo capacity goes, most police officers are said to average about 4 rounds per deadly force engagement.

[35remington]

I am not aware of any civilian self defense shootings wherein the participants shot their pieces dry and the fast reloadability of an auto thereafter saved the day for one person or the other.

Like it or not, nearly all confrontations of this type are inevitably resolved with what is in the gun. If you are in a shootout at typical ranges you better resolve it sooner than the other guy. Fumbling for a reload at toe to toe distances ain't gonna happen. I suggest running like hell instead, whether auto or revolver is in your hands.

Standing around reloading if someone is shooting at you or being in any close proximity with an empty gun of any sort seems like a really bad idea. If you are empty, better create distance first before you even think about reloading, especially if you are out in the open with your **** hanging out.

[Lagamor]

I'd carry a hollow base wadcutter loaded backwards any day of the week.

[winelover]

If concerned with the stopping power of 38 Special.......move on up to 357 Magnum. I personally own two S&W 642's and that's what's in my pocket, most of the time. However, I do have a Ruger LCR in 357 Magnum and it carries as well as the 642's. In fact, size wise, it fits in the same holsters that I use for the S&W's. It's only a couple of ounces, heavier. Has better sights and a great "out of the box" trigger.

176544

Winelover

[Petrol & Powder]

I'd carry a hollow base wadcutter loaded backwards any day of the week.
That idea has been around a long time but may not be solution one would expect.

I did some experimentation with reversed hollow based wadcutters and I was very Unimpressed with the results.
That big hollow base skirt may look like a big hollow point but it rarely behaves like one. When I could get them to expand, the skirt would peel back on the bullet and often just separate, therefore reducing the mass of the main projectile and limiting penetration. Other times it would stay attached but still not penetrate. On top of that, the bullet is wildly inaccurate. (in that configuration and at ranges beyond a few yards)


There's a tendency to equate bullet expansion with terminal performance. Bullet expansion should be viewed as the icing on the cake. The first job of the projectile is to reach something important. Expansion increases the frontal area and can improve the performance of the bullet but it shouldn't be the primary objective.

A SWCHP driven as fast as you safely can or even just a full wadcutter may be your best bet with a snubnose.

[cainttype]

I'm not a fan of the standard 148 hollow base inverted, either. In general, those skirts are too fragile and the cavity extends too far leaving very little solid shank. The results are rapid expansion, minimal penetration, and questionable bullet integrity.
The previous pics are nothing similar. The large hollow point formed has substantial thickness, and the solid shank is roughly 2/3 of the total length. The solid portion weighs roughly 150 grains by itself... penetration is never lacking.

These custom swaged soft lead projectiles are simply another example of the versatility of the pocket 38.
The 38 snubby is definitely nothing to be taken lightly when loaded with good ammo... and there's plenty of good options.
Newer premium bullet designs are improving the pocket-9's potential better than ever before, but the 38 snubby has been a smart, solid choice for many decades... That isn't ever going to change.

[Paul_R]

I wouldn't feel under gunned at all with a .38+P. I bought my wife a S&W 642 Ladysmith. It's a sweet little pocket pistol. Problem is neither of us can hit the broad side of a barn at much further than about 10 feet with that little thing. It is what it is, up close and personal.

[Char-Gar]

All handguns are inferior to a 12 ga. shotgun or serious rifle round to the chest. A handgun is what you have, when you can't have a good shotgun or a rifle. Every handgun is an inferior self defense weapon. Starting from this point eliminates much of the BS around handguns for self defense.

A 38 Special with good ammo is a quite satisfactory round for a defense handgun. I prefer a full charge flat nose full wadcutter. It doesn't need the extra pressure of a +P loading as it doesn't need to expand and will penetrate just fine as is, thank you very much. Expansion of any 38 Special round is not a guaranteed thing anyway you slice it.

I prefer the Hensley & Gibbs dead flat nose over 3.5/Bulleye. It is an accurate, easy to control round in any revolver so chambered. It will get the job done, IF you are up to getting the job done. When the whistle blows, what is between your ears is far more important than what is in your hand.

I have quite a few 38 Special revolvers, but the one I carry most often is a Smith and Wesson Chief Special. Here are pics of it, with the factory grips and a grip adapter, and with set of Mustang grips attached. While adding a little bulk, the bigger grips enable me to shoot the little popper with the accuracy and control of a service revolver, something well worth the extra bulk. With the Mustang grips in place, I am good for 25 yard head shots and 50 yard center of mass shots. With the original grips in place, it is little more than a belly gun.

[FergusonTO35]

+1 Char Gar!!

I carry my S&W 637 alot, carrying it today in fact. It stays loaded with a standard pressure, middle of the range load with a full wadcutter bullet: 3.1 grains Bullseye, 146 grain Lyman 35891 sized to .358, Federal primer. Across my chronograph it clocks a very consistent 712 fps and is quite accurate and easy to shoot. Note that this is around 40 fps more than factory wadcutter loads tend to move out of a snubnose.

I am fully aware that this is a modest load. Thing is, if I have to shoot a bad guy once I should shoot him at least two or three times. In a gun this size, follow up shots come much slower with the extra recoil, noise, and muzzle jump of stronger ammo. According to tests I have done and read about somnolent full wadcutters actually penetrate quite well, often beating out pricey JHP's. According to testing on the Pocket Guns and Gear website, the 665 fps Federal Gold Medal load completely penetrated an 18" gelatin block completely, actually beating out the vaunted Speer Gold Dot 135 grain short barrel load:

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2014/01/federal-gold-medal-match-38-special.html

[ole 5 hole group]

Just ask yourself - what did all those people die from back in the 1930's, 1940's, 1950's and 1960's that were shot? 32's?, 380's?, 38 Special?, 357's?, 45ACP? - Yup all of those, the 38 Special is more than sufficient to carry concealed for your personal protection, as is the 380. That 38 Special harvested a lot of big game as well. Carry with confidence.

However, I would not advise anyone to carry Silvertips in the 38 Special - myself, today, I would opt for the Gold Dot in a reloaded cartridge, just because that's my bullet of choice (230 grain ahead of VV N-350) with the 45 ACP in the 1911.

[cainttype]

With a large enough meplat, a HP getting plugged or failing to mushroom can/will perform very similar to a full diameter wadcutter.
That said, sufficient penetration is the first priority and projectile diameter is next... If I can get both I want them.
If I can add the possibilty of a large-meplat projectile greatly increasing it's original diameter while delivering sufficient penetration, I'll be even happier... I'd rather see a 3/4" exit than a 3/8" if there's an imminent threat. It increases the chance of striking something important enough to cease hostilies immediately.

So yeah, I like the 12 guage around home, too. :)

[Piedmont]

The Buffalo Bore .38+Ps scare me as do other boutique loads in other calibers. How can BB get another hundred fps without excess pressures? Do they have super secret powders that the big companies don't have access too? I doubt it. My M642 already has a set back recoil shield from 4,500 rounds of mostly very light loads and a few FBI loads thrown in to see where they hit and what they shot like.

Winelover has me wondering about a Ruger LCR in .357. I would shoot BB .38s out of that.

And for everyone who thinks all handguns are wimps, I think a 10mm, .41 Mag, or .44 Mag with a good load is a fearsome tool at close ranges if you know how to shoot.

[Walkingwolf]

The Buffalo Bore .38+Ps scare me as do other boutique loads in other calibers. How can BB get another hundred fps without excess pressures? Do they have super secret powders that the big companies don't have access too? I doubt it. My M642 already has a set back recoil shield from 4,500 rounds of mostly very light loads and a few FBI loads thrown in to see where they hit and what they shot like.

Winelover has me wondering about a Ruger LCR in .357. I would shoot BB .38s out of that.

And for everyone who thinks all handguns are wimps, I think a 10mm, .41 Mag, or .44 Mag with a good load is a fearsome tool at close ranges if you know how to shoot.

Most factory loads are 10% under SAAMI. BB is loaded to the limit, which used in minimal quantity should not do any harm. I knew detectives who carried 38-44 in their S&W model 36 which are considerably hotter than BB. IIRC S&W 38 revolvers are proofed to 50K.

I wouldn't use BB for target shooting, but would trust them for SD.

[ole 5 hole group]

Buffalo Bore is excellent ammunition. I've never talked to Tim about how he tests his ammunition for pressure but I just have to assume he does like others who have worked up safe loads for their calibers such as Mr. Linebaugh with his calibers by using pressure testing equipment or sending the ammunition to commercial establishments that specialize in those services. This is what he does - makes excellent, safe ammunition that is usually not seen at your local sporting goods store. Some have a need for his ammunition and his ammunition have served them well.

Just purchase a box of Buffalo Bore Ammunition and shoot it over a chronograph - you'll probably find the velocity to be just a tad more than advertised - maybe 10 to 25 fps more velocity without any apparent signs of being over pressure.

Does he use special powders not available to the reloader? Maybe, but there are some ammunition manufactures that have access to powders not available to reloaders such as Hornady Ammunition.

I've purchased a box of Buffalo Bore 45 ACP loads with cast 255 grain bullets - shot them over a chronograph, took a couple apart, examined the powder, weighed the powder - took a SWAG at what he was possibly using for powder and I've duplicated his load. Is my load safe? I think so, no apparent pressure signs, excessive recoil or muzzle report but I really don't know the pressure, as I've never sent my reloads off for testing. I really have no weekly/monthly need to shoot heavy 1911 loads but I can sure load a few up at a moments notice if I feel the need.;-)

[Shooter6br]

Ed Harris article is a good one I carry a 638 . 15 oz I "never leave home without it."

[35remington]

Funny. Not that long ago an outfit put something like 5 thousand Plus P rounds through a J frame that was rated for Plus P yet made of aluminum and found no appreciable wear. Don't know what was wrong with the previous poster's gun as nobody else's Plus P rated J frame is that fragile.

And yes, Chargar got it right. Compared to rifles and shotguns, handguns are wimpy. Even the bigger boomers offer only about one third the energy and much lower velocity as compared to a 30-06 or a charge of buckshot. Short barreled carry guns as opposed to hotter rounds fired in guns that only rarely get out of the safe to be carried because they are too bulky to be comfortable have even less. Just the way it is.

As was mentioned, Buffalo Bore's stuff is loaded to the SAAMI spec pressure for the round rather than well away from it as is common elsewhere. Using Power Pistol handloads and Plus P loadings their velocity may be approximated.

Having said all that, it's still best to practice with milder loads and it may be better to carry milder loads as well. 3.5 Bullseye and a 148 wadcutter does about 780 fps from my 638. This is not Plus P, but I don't care as it is controllable, accurate and penetrative, which are the jobs I want done.

The Speer 135 Gold Dot struggles to make FBI minimums. The wadcutter does not have that problem. The issue with getting "maximum expansion" from short barreled arms is that penetration suffers greatly when it occurs.....it happens with longer barreled guns too.

[ShooterAZ]

I surely can't be the only one who carries a 2" Model 10 for CCW right? Six shots instead of 5, not too heavy. It is actually my standard winter carry gun, I have no problem whatsoever concealing it.. I carry a Model 60 in the warmer months with lighter clothing. The 38 Special is the perfect choice for me, and my guns are always 100% reliable.

[The Governor]

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/burley_bucket/SW.jpg

I like mine a lot and carry it with repackaged FBI loads, a Tyler T and Hip Grips.

[Petrol & Powder]

The issue of standard pressure 38 Special and +P comes up often.
So, just for common knowledge, here are the SAAMI specs:
38 Special = 17,000 psi
38 Special +P = 20,000 psi

and just for comparison, .357 Magnum = 35,000 psi.

I don't have the article in front of me but I recall reading about a test in which several thousand rounds of +P cartridges were fired in a non +P rated S&W alloy J-frame with no measurable wear. I'm not recommending that course of action but I don't think the alloy J-frames are as fragile as some people believe. On top of that, we're only talking about 3K psi difference between standard pressure 38 Special and +P 38 Special.

A well placed 38 Special slug will get the job done and it has so for many decades.

[Petrol & Powder]

And the "FBI Load" [AKA the "Chicago Load, Dallas Load, Treasury Load, whatever you want to call it load...] is a 158 grain Lead Semi-wadcutter hollow-point loaded to +P pressure and It typically utilizes fairly soft lead.

That load has an excellent track record and is still sold by Remington as their "High Terminal Performance" [HTP] 38 Special +P
The catalog designation for that cartridge is RTP38S12 it was formally sold as the R38S12 but they are the same loads.

[Piedmont]

Yeah, I remember one of those 5,000 rd. Plus P torture tests done with an aluminum J frame in the 1990s by Dick Metcalf in Shooting Times. Gunzine writer in a publication S&W probably was advertising in, with a free gun and free ammo (whose manufacturer also probably has an ad in the same magazine). Yet he had no wear on his gun. How gullible are you?

Actually I've seen a couple of aluminum frame snubbies with a set back recoil shield. I've also seen several with a cracked frame up where the barrel screws in.

But I'm not a gun writer so what could I possibly know. So now you guys believe magazines? I thought most on this board had become skeptical of the rags.

[35remington]

You misunderstand. I cite those tests because they have supposedly shot more Plus P than I, and I shoot it sparingly.

But I have shot a pretty fair amount of standard loads through them and mine ain't anywhere near falling apart. Thus I don't believe horror stories about how soon they fall apart as I shoot one fairly regularly. Running fine.

Even my carry loads are standard pressure but my reloads are not.

On edit...BTW, the test I was remembering was shot supposedly by a police department. They should have less of an agenda.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm not saying I would shoot 10,000 +P rounds in an aluminum J-frame but I don't think a box or two now and then will hurt anything.
And the test I recall was done in the 1970's.

[johniv]

I have a S&W 642 new in late March of this year. I shoot it fairly often and have (by actual count) 960 rounds thru it. My practice load is 3.5 gr of Bullseye and a H&G #50 148 gr wc. I hope to top 1000 rds tomorrow. My mod.442 is much older and has a MUCH higher round count (thou I don't keep a record of that one). Both guns are in fine shape. What do you have to do to set the recoil plate back?

[35remington]

Please also note the warranty on current models. It appears to be awhile before I will need it but being prudent in the meantime causes no harm.

[35remington]

Setting the recoil plate back requires overloads. Don't have to run the gun that hard.

Best practice loads for me approximate a 4 inch 38 Smith and Wesson....about 705 fps out of the 638 using the Lee 148 TLWC with 3.1 grains Bullseye or Titegroup with Bullseye preferred. In a time of need I would carry this load and not feel the pinch of want very much.

Mild pressure is easy on the gun.

[Earlwb]

I simply use target wadcutters for most of my practice and or lead round nose standard loads. The cheap ones from the store. I occasionally shoot the +P stuff, but not all the time. The same for a .357 magnum, you don't shoot the mag loads all the time, it could wear the gun out faster like that. Enough so you stay used to it though.

[Oyeboten]

I surely can't be the only one who carries a 2" Model 10 for CCW right? Six shots instead of 5, not too heavy. It is actually my standard winter carry gun, I have no problem whatsoever concealing it.. I carry a Model 60 in the warmer months with lighter clothing. The 38 Special is the perfect choice for me, and my guns are always 100% reliable.

I used to CCW my late 1930s S & W "M&P" Factory Snubby and I liked it a lot. Fit my hand a lot nicer than smaller Frame .38 Specials, and, just as you say, "Six Shots" instead of five...carried it and a couple charged Speed Loaders also.

Any of the 'M&P' or eventual Model 10 Snubbies are mighty nice.

I have no idea why Colt did not offer a Factory 2 inch 'Army Special' or 'Official Police' before the War...either one of those would have been great also...and they would be cherished today, for sure...if Colt had offered them!

Back when, I did carry an S & W "Chief Special" for many years, and they are good Revolvers for sure, but uncomfortable and just plain nasty far as my own comforts with recoil...especially if using stronger Cartridges.

I should have just gone with a nice Model 10 Snubby right from the start...so much nicer in every way than a Frame.

[winelover]

I wouldn't feel under gunned at all with a .38+P. I bought my wife a S&W 642 Ladysmith. It's a sweet little pocket pistol. Problem is neither of us can hit the broad side of a barn at much further than about 10 feet with that little thing. It is what it is, up close and personal.

A set of Crimson Trace Laser grips will fix that issue.

Winelover

[Earlwb]

I wouldn't feel under gunned at all with a .38+P. I bought my wife a S&W 642 Ladysmith. It's a sweet little pocket pistol. Problem is neither of us can hit the broad side of a barn at much further than about 10 feet with that little thing. It is what it is, up close and personal.

It does take some practice to get pretty good with them. If you carried one as a backup for police work, you had to qualify on the police course with it too. That means you had to hit the target well all the way back to 25 yards. All double action only. I would suggest using target wadcutter rounds to practice with first before going with the +P stuff. Some of the makes or models of the .38 snubbies tend to be hard to control at first until you get used to them.

[quail4jake]

My wife and I carry J frames, 438 and 360J both with Crimson Trace grips. I have been loading the 110gr Hornady XTP over 8gr of Longshot with a CCI 550 spark plug which shoots great MV=1350 in my 6" bbl. K38 and 900-1000 in the snubbies with a greatly increased SD in the short guns. Can anyone please chime in with advice / data on going to a heavier boolit and / or faster powder in that short bbl. Thanks!

[35remington]

If you want to lower your extreme spreads try wadcutter. Deep seating lets the powder shift less. Also helps to use Titegroup with the 158's. Nothing can really help the shallowly seated light bullets which is why the 38 is not at its best with them. Penetration according to current thinking is also on the shallow side if they expand to any degree.

[FergusonTO35]

Setting the recoil plate back requires overloads. Don't have to run the gun that hard.

Best practice loads for me approximate a 4 inch 38 Smith and Wesson....about 705 fps out of the 638 using the Lee 148 TLWC with 3.1 grains Bullseye or Titegroup with Bullseye preferred. In a time of need I would carry this load and not feel the pinch of want very much.

Mild pressure is easy on the gun.

We need to quit agreeing with each other so much. This is a gun forum, darn it!;-)

[FergusonTO35]

I surely can't be the only one who carries a 2" Model 10 for CCW right? Six shots instead of 5, not too heavy. It is actually my standard winter carry gun, I have no problem whatsoever concealing it.. I carry a Model 60 in the warmer months with lighter clothing. The 38 Special is the perfect choice for me, and my guns are always 100% reliable.

My 10's have 4" tubes, but I did just pick up a Rossi 461 with 3" barrel. It is a six shot .357 of roughly the same weight and size as a Detective Special or Ruger SP-101. It will likely never see a round of .357 with me, I save those for the Marlin 1894. I'll probably work up a 158 grain SWC at 800 fps for carry, halfway between standard pressure and FBI load. I was really hoping Ruger would get off it's rear and come up with a six shot .38 that is compact and doesn't weigh a ton but it doesn't look like that will ever happen.

[Earlwb]

My wife and I carry J frames, 438 and 360J both with Crimson Trace grips. I have been loading the 110gr Hornady XTP over 8gr of Longshot with a CCI 550 spark plug which shoots great MV=1350 in my 6" bbl. K38 and 900-1000 in the snubbies with a greatly increased SD in the short guns. Can anyone please chime in with advice / data on going to a heavier boolit and / or faster powder in that short bbl. Thanks!

I like to use the wadcutter bullets in my .38 special revolvers. Either the 148 or 158 grain versions. You seat the 148 grain bullets all the way inside the case. For target shooting you only use enough propellant to get them to the target, something like 650fps. For SD of course, you load them more hot. There is a hollow base wadcutter bullet, which is great for accurate target shooting, but you want the solid base bullets for SD purposes. Of course with more hot loads the bullet may need to be seated farther out as necessary.

https://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/198/198662.jpg

[FergusonTO35]

I have the Lee 358-148-WC and Lyman 35891 button nose wadcutter molds. These have actual crimp grooves so I treat them like a really short SWC.

[Doc1]

Carry the most powerful ammunition you and your revolver can stand! My EDC weapons vary with the seasons. In southern Mississippi you are not going to be able to wear even a light cover garment outdoors in the summer. My summer EDC is a stainless S&W 649-3 J-frame .357 Bodyguard with a 2 1/8" barrel. I carry this in my right front pants pocket and load my carry ammunition for this revolver to the very top of the loading manual data, as I do for my other carry guns. Why? This is not a plinking weapon; it is a last ditch defensive tool. I load a variety of ammunition for different purposes, to include very light target rounds. If a situation ever gets bad enough that I need to employ deadly force, I want that little Bodyguard to roar and I want every foot pound of energy I can squeeze out of it. No, it's not going to blow up or wear out and no, I don't shoot much top-o'-the-charts ammo through it. I'm strictly talking about carry ammo and limited practice with that ammo.

You should learn tactics to use every aspect of your weapon to its greatest advantage. Muzzle blast and flash should be considered to be part of the weapon's capability and not a detriment. Yes, it's a handful to shoot, but it's far from uncontrollable. Again, training covers a multitude of sins. In a defensive scenario, you should consider what the muzzle flash and blast would do to an enemy's sight and hearing. What if I miss? A blinded, deafened adversary is suddenly at a severe disadvantage. The effect can be roughly equated to a military or police flashbang grenade. What if I have to make a contact shot by pressing the revolver directly into the attacker's body? The volume of gas and heat generated by the little .357 is fearsome in its own right, aside from the damage the projectile will do. A .357 (or a .38) loses a lot of velocity when fired through such a short barrel, so I suggest that you look at this negative as a positive in other tactical applications.

As others have observed, handguns are the weak sisters of the firearms world. If at all possible, use a centerfire rifle or a shotgun. EDC handguns are for the 'impossible' deadly force scenarios when you don't have access to a better weapon. Train and think through ways to use the tool you have to maximum advantage.

Best regards
Doc

[Petrol & Powder]

/\ Well Said /\

[Doc1]

Well said.


Thank you for the kind words, 35remington. To continue on the thoughts of my above post, I'd like to add a few additional comments. Hopefully members will find these things helpful. There are a million keyboard commandos out there and opinions are like...well, you know. Some of my background includes the following: Former deputy sheriff, graduate (usually first in class) of several respected shooting and combat schools, former security executive in southern Africa, rifleman and machinegunner - American volunteer - in the old SADF South African Army (and Angolan border war veteran), various military schools/courses and military-interest journalism. None of this makes me "Billy ******" but neither does it make me a clueless newbie. There are any number of better-qualified and more experienced combatants out there...but not a huge number of them compared to the general population. Lastly, I'm reaching the stage where I'm getting to be an old phart. With all of that out of the way, allow me to state:

I see any number of posts from guys who are afraid to shoot high performance ammunition in their guns for fear of premature wear or catastrophic failures. Folks should understand that ALL firearms produced by reputable manufacturers are proofed to pressures far higher than any factory production ammo you can buy. You are NOT going to blow up your weapon shooting the hottest commercial ammunition available...period. In my earlier post, I made mention of feeding very hot (but within the loading manual limits) handloads through my j-frame S&W .357 snubbie. For God's sake, it's a Smith & Wesson...not a Saturday Night special or some homemade zip gun. If the S&W engineers and their bevies of litigation-shy attorneys say it's a .357, I'm going to believe them! This is not to say that you should necessarily feed a steady diet hot ammunition though all firearms, but we we're talking about defensive carry, not casual plinking. Your LIFE is on the line, not a range officer's score. While it's true that different weights and power levels of ammunition with have different POI, at typical defensive ranges the differences are usually minimal.

There's a camp that says "practice with what you shoot with." There's some validity to this, but in a CQB gunfire exchange, the last thing you are going to remember is felt recoil. If your basic shooting skills are up to par, the ammo differences will be minimal. I do practice - largely - with less powerful (and less expensive) ammunition, but I do a limited amount of practice with the hot stuff to understand the differences between the different ammunition I use in any given carry gun. The differences in handgun ammunition are not drastic. Again, limited amounts of hot ammo are not going to hurt any quality firearm. In this vein, it is true that the hottest loads are almost never the most accurate, but at ranges of a few yards, that's not very high up on my list of priorities.

One thing I do consider to be of paramount importance is reliability. In most cases this is more problematic with semi-autos than revolvers. If you reload, you should develop your own recipes for bullet weight and type, powder type and weight and especially cartridge OAL (which is something that can greatly affect auto loading from pistol to pistol, but lots of guys don't pay enough attention to). If you don't reload, you will just have to bite the bullet and buy and experiment with enough different ammunition to be completely sure that your pistol functions reliably with whatever you feed it. I have seen countless folks buy expensive, premium ammunition only to find that their pistol doesn't especially like it. You want to find this out at the range; not when someone is trying to kill you.

Lastly - much like with ammunition - be sure your magazines work well with your specific pistol AND ammunition. I find that 1911s often tend to work better with certain mag and ammo combinations and that this can be different between individual pistols. Obviously, one should not buy the cheapest magazines to stretch a Dollar, but neither should you assume that your pistol will like a certain magazine merely because it's from an expensive, premium manufacturer. Every pistol has its own idiosyncrasies and if you are a serious shooter you should look at it as you would learning about your wife or a dog. No, I'm not comparing women to dogs, but what I am doing is explaining that it can take a long time to understand the subtleties of behavior in both. No one completely masters any of these things. If this were not true, all hits would be in the x ring, no dogs would bite when they weren't supposed to and there would be no divorces, right?

Hope this helps.

Best regards
Doc

[Hickok]

I have a S&W Airweight in .38 Special and it is with me more than other handguns I own, simply because it fits in my pocket and carries so nicely.

I always have to grin when I hear how someone is concerned that they may run into a "evil motorcycle gang", "15 drunk guys outside a bar" or maybe the KKK or Blackpanthers and they need 17 rounds and two full mags for reloads when they carry concealed!!!

[FergusonTO35]

If someone is capable of shooting a very small and powerful gun well, my hat is off to them. I cannot, therefore I will stick with the strongest thing I can shoot well. Standard pressure .38 Special and .380 Auto in the pocket rockets, .38 Special +P and 9mm in my compact and full size handguns. I have struggled with the gruesome twosome of flinch and very bad fine motor skills all my life. At the age of 38, I am just now getting to the point that I have a reasonable amount of control over where the boolit goes. I own many different guns and practice alot. When a buddy offers to let me try his magnum I always pass, not going to risk undoing any of my hard earned progress. It's a good thing I am not a cop, most agencies around here won't let you carry anything other than a .40.

[Earlwb]

You would think that someone would have made a revolver to fit the .40 S&W cartridge too. Especially a snubbie.
I used to carry a S&W .38 special snubbie all the time. But more recently I discovered the S&W Bodyguard .380's and I love how it slips into a pants pocket so nicely. With a pocket sleeve holster you cannot tell one is carrying.

[ironhead7544]

You would think that someone would have made a revolver to fit the .40 S&W cartridge too. Especially a snubbie.
I used to carry a S&W .38 special snubbie all the time. But more recently I discovered the S&W Bodyguard .380's and I love how it slips into a pants pocket so nicely. With a pocket sleeve holster you cannot tell one is carrying.

Charter Arms is making a 40 S&W revolver. Also in 45 ACP. They are Ruger Security Six sized. A bit bigger than the Bulldog.

[Walkingwolf]

You would think that someone would have made a revolver to fit the .40 S&W cartridge too. Especially a snubbie.
I used to carry a S&W .38 special snubbie all the time. But more recently I discovered the S&W Bodyguard .380's and I love how it slips into a pants pocket so nicely. With a pocket sleeve holster you cannot tell one is carrying.

I have a Pitbull in 40 S&W, it is a little big for a pocket gun, unless you have big pockets. The cylinder is slightly bigger than a Colt Detective, it packs a punch. For some reason the 40 does not lose much velocity with a short barrel, my readings dropped about 50fps.