Bending my stupid punches

[odfairfaxsub]

Well I've torn down a lot of guns recently w a set of Home Depot punches.

They em were not cheap and they seemed to be great punches as I could see.

knocking out hi power trigger axis pins isn't for the faint of heart so that may have something to do w it (usually requires about 3 mins of precise pounding and reseating and pounding).

Is is this just normal that I have to restraighten my punch due to the tenacity of the job or are these just **** made in America ****?

what punches do you use that you can attest that "Rog, I've had the same set of these for 10 year 20 year 4 marriages later and they should last you for a longb time"

[B R Shooter]

On stubborn pins, once you bend or break a punch, cut it off so the punch is short, maybe 1/4 to 3/8 long. It will hold up better than the 1 1/2 long punch. Once the pin breaks loose, then switch. I bought a set of Starretts a long time ago, I've broken one or two, but replaced them from Brownells.

[montana_charlie]

About a hundred years ago I was 'the tool guy' for our Air Force radio maintenance shop.
When we needed anything from 'supply' I was the NCO sent to fill the list.
One day the list included a set of drill bits. That would be your standard '29-bits in the metal box' that everybody is familiar with.
When I saw one, I put it in the cart that I was filling.

When I got to the shop and started putting tools away I discovered that it was a set of blanks. They were just round rod ... with no machining at all.

There was no such thing as 'take it back and trade for something else', so we kept that goofy set for a long time. Finally, when preparing for a big inspection where you couldn't possess anything 'unusable', the boss told me to permanently lose that set.

Well, I lost it in my car.
I still had 'em when I retired in '85, and take great pains to keep them in good shape, today.

It's nice to have a set of pretty durable punches in every diameter you can think of ...

[odfairfaxsub]

Lol now that's great. Makes sense to shorten my bending punches. Wondering other than a set of loose permanently drill blanks would be a good brand to buy. I think these were made from a generic grade of steel and drop forged to shape. Stupid stupid junk I deff was taken. Should have just went to harbor frieght for that kinda junk

[W.R.Buchanan]

Drift Pin Punches vary considerably in quality. Even the "good ones" They will either bend or break. if the material is too soft they bend, if it is too hard they break. Personally I would rather have "break," as you know that if it breaks the punch it is definitely going to bend a softer punch. low grade HF punches bend easily but are still useful as they only cost $5 for a set and the big ones don't usually bend so they serve a purpose.

Proto Tools always made good Punches and Chisels, Craftsman Punches and Chisels were soft. YMMV.

Drill Blanks work good for punches, and especially in the very small sizes like <1/16". Small Drift Pin Punches tend to bend easily, drill blanks don't bend.

Randy

[corbinace]

I am pretty sure any pin punch can be broken, given enough of a whack or an oblique hit. Once bent, there is no such thing as "straightening" for long term satisfaction.

I try to use my previously broken punches to get the pin moving and then once it is beyond the reach of the short punch, I progress to a nice long one.

I am pretty sure that you are not going to find a "great" tool at a home improvement store, no matter the manufacturing origin.

Find a fastener supply house or tool truck. Most of them are replaceable if broken to the point where you do not want to use them anymore.

[montana_charlie]

Wondering other than a set of loose permanently drill blanks would be a good brand to buy.
Part of keeping my set in good shape includes buying replacements on occasion.
You can buy sets, or individual blanks from McMaster-Carr.

This page has the individual sizes ...
http://www.mcmaster.com/#reamer-blanks/=1450x5g

[KCSO]

First start short! Don't try and hammer out a pin full length first crack out of the box. Get it started and if it is still tight use a slightly longer punch. Use the right punch! Use roll pin punches for roll pins and flat punches for flat heads and dished punches for rounded heads.

Now what I started doing yeas ago was turning shanks for punches and using cut off old drill bits for REPLACABLE bits. Haven't lost a shank yet and I always have enough broken drill bits to replace what I need and always just the right size.

[John 242]

Great advise given already.
I like to use a starter punch to get a pin moving. Some starter punches are tapered, others are short versions the standard punch.
If you do a lot of roll pins, you may find a roll pin starter punch set is useful to have around.

A nail set makes a great starter punch. You can get them cheap from the big box hardware stores. They have a slight cup tip, which you can grind away and make flat if you want.

As already mentioned, broken punches can be ground down and they make great starter punches.

I have found that the biggest mistake in driving pins is hitting them with too small of a hammer. No joke, get a bigger hammer. I use a fairly large cross peen hammer to drive stubborn pins. Many guys will use a tiny 8 oz ball peen hammer and all they manage to do is distort the head of the pin and bend punches. Drive a stubborn pin out. Don't tap, tap, tap it.

It's also a good idea to invest in several 1/16 punches so you have a back up for the inevitable bent or broken one. 3/32 also tend to bite the dust and it's good to have a couple. The bigger punches just really don't seem to break on me. In my experience, once bent a punch is toast. You can straighten it, but hit it hard and it will bend again.

I don't know if there is a "sacred cow" brand, other than Starrett, but I doubt a Starrett 1/16 or 3/32 would survive any better than any other quality punch. Maybe, maybe not. I'd be willing to test a few long term if anyone is willing to donate a few (wink, wink).
[I have/use punches from Paramount, Grace and some cheapos from McMaster Carr. The Paramount punches seem to be good quality, Grace is okay and the smaller Chinese stuff from McMaster Carr bit the dust pretty quick, but the bigger once are just fine.]

[reed1911]

About a hundred years ago I was 'the tool guy' for our Air Force radio maintenance shop.
When we needed anything from 'supply' I was the NCO sent to fill the list.
One day the list included a set of drill bits. That would be your standard '29-bits in the metal box' that everybody is familiar with.
When I saw one, I put it in the cart that I was filling.

When I got to the shop and started putting tools away I discovered that it was a set of blanks. They were just round rod ... with no machining at all.

There was no such thing as 'take it back and trade for something else', so we kept that goofy set for a long time. Finally, when preparing for a big inspection where you couldn't possess anything 'unusable', the boss told me to permanently lose that set.

Ha! Brings me back, working in electronics we had the same audits, and while they could inspect just about anything, they could not inspect the testing gear. We used large computer based testing benches with multiple racks of test equipment From the size of a now standard server rack to several larger than a 5-Ton troop transport, anyhow many of the bays in each system did not have each slot filled with testing instruments so the manufacturer would put a drawer or just a blank space, that is where we hid all our contraband items that while extremely useful and help many missions succeed were not exactly 100% by the book. We called them ambient air drawers.

To the OP on punches, while punches bought from the large retail outfits are certainly better then the cheap stuff, they are not much better. Knock out a roll pin or coil pin they will do, but really act as a punch they will not. So, if you will be using a punch a lot it really makes sense to invest in a good one. Now don't get me wrong, I cannot afford the best of everything either, and I use lots of cheap tools for many applications, more so when I know I'll be breaking it or intend to modify it. A handy stock of drill rod or locating a local business that stocks drill rod is a great place, and buy the good punches by size you need and keep them locked up so no one else will get their grubbies on them.

[JSnover]

I ended up with two sets of drill/reamer blanks the same way and they're great. I also used them as a poor man's pin gage set for a while.

[reed1911]

I also used them as a poor man's pin gage set for a while.

You and I both! I always have bits on hand, the pin gauge sets are inside in better conditions (temp and humidity controlled). Faster to grab a bit for a quick gauge or feeler than the precision instruments, for general work anyhow.

[Mica_Hiebert]

last ar15 front sight pyramid I tried to remove my punch shattered and stabbed through my finger... given the alternative id rather my punches bent.

[imashooter2]

last ar15 front sight pyramid I tried to remove my punch shattered and stabbed through my finger... given the alternative id rather my punches bent.

Best to start those pins with a big tapered alignment punch you can really hold on to and a 3 pound drilling hammer for just the reason you state. Once they move, they come out reasonably easy. It is that first 64th of an inch that is the hard part.

[JSnover]

last ar15 front sight pyramid I tried to remove my punch shattered and stabbed through my finger... given the alternative id rather my punches bent.
:shock: Ouch! Been there and done that.
With a conventional (made for the purpose) punch I like to hold it with a pair of vise-grips, at least until I can get it moving.

[gunwonk]

It is that first 64th of an inch that is the hard part.
I needed a really thin punch -- 1/32", maybe smaller -- to remove the safety lever detent pins on an Ishapore 2A1 (same as SMLE #1). Didn't have one, but I had paper clips. Which were surely going to bend. :(

I ended up supporting a ~3/4" length of cut off paper clip by putting it inside a 1/2" length of thin but fairly stiff plastic tubing. Lined up the whole mess on the pin, tapped on the bit of paper clip sticking out the top, and it worked! The piece of paper clip didn't bend. Might not work every time, but I only needed it once. :)

[reed1911]

I needed a really thin punch -- 1/32", maybe smaller
Piano wire is a good thing to have around for chores like that, but when you are in a pinch, you use what you have, and so long as it works go for it.

[odfairfaxsub]

Maybe the prob was my punches are simply just too long for what I'm trying to do. Solution maybe is cut my bent long punch shorter and use that to start my pins out the switch to longer when driving out. Another thing I never bent punches when using a framing hammer lol. Got tired of the bench space it took up so I bought a double ended no mar finish hammer plastic/rubber and maybe that's my prob too. Devil is in the details

[montana_charlie]

I bought a double ended no mar finish hammer plastic/rubber and maybe that's my prob too. Devil is in the details
I would never try to drive a metal punch with a non-metallic hammer.

I don't own any brass punches, but if I did I would have a brass hammer to drive them with.
As it is, my punches are all steel, and I use various sizes of ball peen hammers for driving them.

If you insist on using a framing hammer, you can probably expect to keep bending punches.
The face angle is wrong ...

[odfairfaxsub]

What style hammer should I buy

[abunaitoo]

Never thought of using drill blanks.
I'll have to look for some in the smaller sizes.
I've started using a Lee pistol depriming rod as a punch.
As long as it fits.
The pin is a roller bearing and is very hard.

[Blackwater]

One of the first things I learned when I started tinkering with guns, is to ALWAYS use increasing levels of force with hammers. Sometimes, you have to increase the level of force you use, or move to the next bigger size hammer, but it's been a good thing to learn. And being an old country boy, I've used whatever nails were handy as "punches" after filing, cutting or otherwise flattening the ends. Even tried heating them red hot and quenching in water to harden them, which produced varied results with varied nails. Now that I've got a set of Starrets, I am VERY respectful of them. If what I regard as a "reasonable" blow won't move a pin with those, I start looking for something more "expendable." Just my country boy mentality, temperament and values coming out, I guess. First rule of gunsmithing is "never be in a hurry - it'll come back to haunt you all too often." An old gunsmith told me that many years ago now, and he did it with a great big smile. I've never forgotten it .... even when I didn't heed it. Sometimes, we know better, but don't do better.

[montana_charlie]

What style hammer should I buy
Get at least three ball peen hammers, 4 oz., 8 oz., and 16oz. Then add a 32 oz. hammer when you find yourself having to hit a punch more than twice to get it moving.

[alamogunr]

Get at least three ball peen hammers, 4 oz., 8 oz., and 16oz. Then add a 32 oz. hammer when you find yourself having to hit a punch more than twice to get it moving.

For several years I've had 4 oz., 12 oz. and 24 oz. ball peen hammers. Plus assorted brass/nylon tip hammers. When I've needed more than the 24 oz hammer, I've used a 4 lb drilling hammer but never on a gun. All of these were acquired as need arose and not all at once.

[alamogunr]

Somewhat off topic, but also several years ago, I sprung for a BIG machinists vise. That, along with some handy jaw liners that I made, has been a life(time)saver several times.

[imashooter2]

For several years I've had 4 oz., 12 oz. and 24 oz. ball peen hammers. Plus assorted brass/nylon tip hammers. When I've needed more than the 24 oz hammer, I've used a 4 lb drilling hammer but never on a gun. All of these were acquired as need arose and not all at once.

A short blow with a heavy hammer beats a high speed blow with a lighter one. Far more controlled and less chance of damage to you or your work piece.

[alamogunr]

A short blow with a heavy hammer beats a high speed blow with a lighter one. Far more controlled and less chance of damage to you or your work piece.

I agree. If I ever need more than the 24 oz hammer for something gun related, I'll do as I have with the other sizes. I will go buy one, possibly a 32 oz. That 4 lb drilling hammer is a beast for anything other than masonry demolition. Just short of the 6 lb one hand sledge that I inherited from my father.

[HollowPoint]

Lol now that's great. Makes sense to shorten my bending punches. Wondering other than a set of loose permanently drill blanks would be a good brand to buy. I think these were made from a generic grade of steel and drop forged to shape. Stupid stupid junk I deff was taken. Should have just went to harbor frieght for that kinda junk


I'm cheap by nature so I always tend to buy the cheap stuff. This includes drill bits that almost always give up the ghost after about the fourth or fifth usage.

I mention this because I'm also a Pack-Rat. I don't throw out my used chinese made drill bits. I simply remove the shank end and that's what I use as my punches. Over time I've managed to accumulate just about every size that a guy might have need of as a punch.

Although the shanks of these cheap drill bits aren't hardened to the same level as the cutting end of these bits, they are hard enough so that they won't easily bend like alot of the brass punches I've ruined over the years.

I don't think I'm the only guy who does this. I just thought I'd mention it since this thread is slowly drifting toward the home-made-punches direction.

HollowPoint

[John 242]

Get at least three ball peen hammers, 4 oz., 8 oz., and 16oz. Then add a 32 oz. hammer when you find yourself having to hit a punch more than twice to get it moving.

I suppose this is a little overkill, but this is what I use when pins won't move. It's 3 lbs.
It works great for me.

[fiberoptik]

Ooh, hammer luuuuust!


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[Greg S]

Get a set of Starrett's and a back up 1/16th right off the bat. I've found once they bend, they bend easier and easier each time until failure.

[Jackpine]

Being cheap and always seeming to bend small punches, I started years ago to make my own. After many trying many things, ended up using cement nails. (much harder than regular nails) Not the square ones, but the round ones that are sort of splined. The "long" ones are about 2" and work perfectly for me. Chuck it in a drill, cut of the head with a cut off wheel, or just grind it off. Spin it in the drill against a grinding wheel. I finish them off on a ribbon grinder. For almost no cost and a minute you can make any size you want. Real short ones and/or tapered ones for starting. You could also chuck them in a drill chuck, but I have never found that necessary

Also, I have found I only need one hammer for everything, a three pound blacksmith model. It is hard to get lost on the bench and you only need one. My motto is, If it ain't broke, it soon will be!!:twisted:

Jackpine

[Petrol & Powder]

I will second the Starrett punches, they seem to be the best I've found. I have a few older ones (I don't need a full set and they aren't cheap) that have held up well. I use cheaper punches for grunt work and try to avoid abusing the Starretts.
The type of steel is important. Too hard and they will be brittle, too soft and they will bend and deform. Starrett seems to have found the balance.

The cheaper punches found in most hardware stores work for about 90% of the jobs and if you bend one you haven't lost much. I can't recall the name on them but they are painted blue.

[fiberoptik]

+1 on using nails


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[wrench man]

All of my pin punches are SnapOn, when they break I get a new one!, I also have ballpeen hammers from 4oz up to 48oz and sledge hammers @ 3# and 4#, the shop has 8#, 12# and 16# hammers, trucks aren't as delicate as guns.