30M1 Carbine reloading problems

[taminsong]

Please help, I really couldn't make a nice looking bullet with my reloading set up for 30 M1 carbine.

I used the following dies:
sizer - lee carbide
lee powder thru expander
hornady seater die
lee factory crimp die

When the brass comes out of the powder thru expander, the other side of the mouth bulges noticeable and when I seat the bullet, it was crooked, and was really bad looking ammo!

I resized the brass in a forster coax press, and use and lee classic turret press for the powder drop, seating and crimping. But whatever method I do, I couldn't make the bullet seat nicely and without the bulge on the other side of the case mouth.

What's the problem here?

[Finster101]

Pictures ?

[fatelvis]

Use this before seating your bullet.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=88&products_id=1152&osCsid=6k5487n6ofvl2vrsmjjt564cm6


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Three44s]

Too much bullet for too much sizing on the case?

My point is you need to tell us what bullet you are trying to seat there.

An oversized lead boolit will need more room in the case mouth to avoid crumpling your case necks. You will need to approach this one or both of two ways: Do a better job of flaring your case mouths as member fatelvis has provided a link and or don't squeeze your cases down a far in the first place for the bullet or boolit you are attemping to load.

Even jacketed bullets can be caused to crumple brass if the sizer die is agressive enough. A different sizer may be needed here.

Best regards

Three 44s

[taminsong]

I am using an Armscor 110grns RN bullet. My suspect is the lee sizer die, it really compresses the brass that it is so hard to seat the bullet without first expanding the case mouth.

I am looking at the Dillon carbide sizer which has an expander built in, but for $104.00!


http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff346/taminsong/IMG20160912214110_zpsuzus57hy.jpg (http://s538.photobucket.com/user/taminsong/media/IMG20160912214110_zpsuzus57hy.jpg.html)

http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff346/taminsong/IMG20160912213922_zpsz9741qfx.jpg (http://s538.photobucket.com/user/taminsong/media/IMG20160912213922_zpsz9741qfx.jpg.html)

[dtknowles]

Try backing out the sizer until you only get barely enough neck tension on the bullet. The case is tapered so if you don't run the case into the die as far it won't size it as much. I bet the ammo you made will shoot fine but like you said it is ugly and might not be as accurate.

Tim

[dogmower]

it's hard to tell from the pics, but if the bulge you're describing is symmetrical, I wouldn't worry about it. I see that with long, straight taper cases all the time, especially if the bullet is a little oversize. I see it a lot with my cast loads (.459 boolit) in the 45-70. they routinely hit the 18 inch gong at 500 meters. as long as they chamber, i'd go ahead and shoot them.
for the future, consider getting the lyman "m" die for the 30 carbine. it expands not just the mouth of the case, but goes a bit deeper, makes bullet seating much easier. when I load the 45-70, I can drop the boolit all the way in without putting any pressure on the base, which helps accuracy.
John

[fatelvis]

For jacketed bullets, use this die.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=88&products_id=1509&osCsid=6k5487n6ofvl2vrsmjjt564cm6


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[taminsong]

The bullet will chamber, no doubt, and it'll fire. My charged was 12.5grns of N110 and I'm getting 1775 fps.

I tried the Lyman M die, at first, but it creates a lopsided bulge thats why I stop using it. I tried using the M die in forster coax, the lee turret and the single stage stage, but still the bulge is not uniform. You can see and feel it, the other side of the case mouth is smooth and there's this bulge on the other. This will result a not perfect bullet after seating.

I have a factory made bullet and this one doesn't have the bulge, the bullet was seated perfect in the center of the brass.

I'm thinking it's the sizer die, or my shellholder was uneven. But my doubt was unto the sizer die. I was so frustrated last night that I went to bed not really feeling good about myself!

[abunaitoo]

My reloads look a little like yours.
They chamber/shoot fine. I just shoot them that way.
Try putting a slight flair in the case neck. I find it helps the bullet go in straighter.
If you want them looking better, try sizing the case less.
Instead of adjusting the sizing die touching the shell holder, back it out a turn and try seating a bullet.
If it still has the bulge, back it out another turn. Seat another bullet.
Do it until your happy with how it looks.
When you get to where you like it, tap the bullet down in to the case see how good the hold is.
If it pushes in to easily, you'll need more neck tension. Screw the die in a 1/4 turn and try again.
Seat another bullet and check the tension again.
Because it's semi auto, you don't want the bullet to be pushed back in the case when feeding into the chamber.
Could create high pressure and damage the rifle.
Also make sure to trim the cases to the correct length.

[ironhead7544]

Looks like the expander ball is not centered. You want to have a small amount of flare at the case neck also, when the case comes out of the expander. The flare should be larger than the bullet base.

Try this: loosen up the expander die lock nut only, leave the die in place. Size a case. Then run the case up into the expander die. Tighten the lock nut on the die with the case all the way up. This will help center the expander ball. Make sure you still have the flare you want.

Are you using the Lee factory crimp die?

[Wayne Smith]

It is either die adjustment as ironhead points out or, since it's happening with two separate dies it may indeed be your shell holder. I believe that you mentioned that it happens on two separate presses, so it's not your press that is out of alignment. If it is indeed only happening on one press it may be that that press is not precisely in alignment.

[seaboltm]

I get a bulge all the way around on my 30 carbine loads. I assumed it was because I was using .309 bullets from Hornaday, the 90 grain XTP. I have had no problem with cycling, reliability, or accuracy.

[mdi]

I'm not sure what's happening but I noticed "...bulge on the other side"(?) from one die, and "..lop sided bulge from an M die". Defects using two different dies?

[Sur-shot]

I understand that you might want your reloads to look perfect, but the M-1 Carbine is a replacement for a 45 Automatic pistol and if the carbine ammo will feed, chamber and shoot, chances are you are good to go, because there is no target model of the 30 Carbine. I have owned a ton of them and used to qualify National Guard troops that could not shoot worth a diddly, when I was in HS in the early 60s. You should treat reloading for a 30 carbine like reloading for a straight walled pistol cartridge, just bring the case neck back to straight so it can headspace and you are good. Try seating and crimping with two dies after you expand the neck real good to start the bullet straight.
Ed

[gwpercle]

Make sure you start the bullet in the case mouth just as straight as you can. If it is started crookedly the bullet will give you that uneven bulge. Try and get the bulge even all around, it is a sign the bullet has gone in straight and the case has a good grip on the bullet. It will shoot just fine. Carbide dies can't make a tapered sizer, they have to oversize the body to get the small enough. I have this same problem with 9 mm , a tapered case and Lee carbide sizer die. If I don't start those bullets in the case perfectly straight they will bulge unevenly .
Line the bullets up so they go in straight and you should be OK.
Gary

[Mr. Don]

You don't mention trimming anywhere in your description of your process? You need to trim .30 Carbine.

[taminsong]

I just confirmed my order for a set of dillon carbide die. I trim the cases to 1.285", at first I thought they might not fire, but I tried those 8pcs of ugly bullets and they shoot fine.

I am not reloading the 30M1 for myself, as I don't have a rifle, these are for a very good friend of mine, that's why I really want them to look "beautiful", lol!

Anyways, I got a very good tip here, how to set the expander ball, I think this is also applicable to sizing die button. I will try all the ideas here, and hopefully when the dillon dies arrived, I can test it and get back here again.

[abunaitoo]

I have RCBS and LEE 30 Carbine dies. They both don't have an expander ball, just deprimer rod and pin.
I loaded some Berry's bullets once. They were .305di and I didn't get the bulge.
I load .309/.310 cast and get the bulge.
The Berry's didn't shoot good at all.
I have a bunch of Armscor bullets I got a long time ago. Never tried to load them.
Looking for a gas check boolet mold.

[r1kk1]

I have a similar problem with a wildcat. I use two different tapered M plug expander's taking a 30-30 case to 40 caliber. I then run these back through the sizing dies and they easily fall into the chamber of my Encore pistol. Hornady makes dies for this project but the expander is not in spec. (I will send it to Ben at Hornady to check out. The die just flares the case mouth like the Lee Universal flaring tool does.) I then seat a Hornady 200 grain XTP and I get a bulge on one side of the case and this will not chamber. I pull it, resize the case, expand the mouth just barely and viola it chambers. I have CH4D sending me a 40 cal M plug. That should solve the issue. I have tried A Lee FCD in 40 cal and using tHe 10mm side. Nice taper crimp but it doesn't fix the one sided bulge.

Still, bullets make poor expander's.

Take care

r1kk1

[Mr. Don]

This is the decapping pin from my RCBS sizing die. Ain't that an expander ball?
176526

[EDG]

The .30 Carbine when reloaded will normally have the bulge shown. I load it with RCBS dies bought long before Lee started making dies.

If you want to get rid of the bulge buy a steel sizer die and polish die out (using a lathe) until it sizes the brass about .003 smaller than a loaded round. Right now it is probably sizing about .007" to .010" under size.
This will size the brass enough that it has to be expanded only .001" to .002". In the Phils that would be .025mm to .050mm

[abunaitoo]

I'm not sure, but I think only shouldered shells use an expander ball.
The neck is sized smaller than finished sizing, and the expander ball brings it up to the correct size.
On straight case shells, the die sizes to the correct size. The depriming rod and pin holder does not have anything to do with sizing the shell.
You can get different size expander balls for RCBS, Lyman, Redding dies.
With the Lee dies you'll need to change the depriming rod. The sizing ball and rod are one piece.
While the 30 Carbine looks like a straigh wall case, it has a slight taper when sized.
By backing out the sizing die, you reduce the taper, bringing the neck closer to the size of bullet used.
My 30 Carbine reloads all have the bulge.
Might not look factory, but they do work.

[abunaitoo]

This is the decapping pin from my RCBS sizing die. Ain't that an expander ball?
176526

It is, but it depends on what your sizing.
The ball, center section, can be changed to different sizes to change the size of the neck opening.
The rod and pin are the same for almost all RCBS sizing dies. The ball is changed to size the neck to the proper caliber.

[Mr. Don]

It is, but it depends on what your sizing.
The ball, center section, can be changed to different sizes to change the size of the neck opening.
The rod and pin are the same for almost all RCBS sizing dies. The ball is changed to size the neck to the proper caliber.

I should have said that it is for .30 Carbine. I don't get the bulge on my bullets. I load Extreme and Berrys 110g round nose plated advertised at .308.



.176623

[ulav8r]

It is apparent that the full length sizer reduces the case diameter more than required. The bullet then expands the case leaving a smaller diameter below it. The expander on the decapping rod should increase the case diameter below the bullet. Personally, I would want to open up the sizing die body to minimize working the brass any more than is necessary. A chamber cast would show actual chamber size, and a cast of the die would show how much to remove from it and where it should be removed. Comparison of chamber and die dimensions to SAAMI specs might indicate less modification to leave the dies useful for other rifles.

[ironhead7544]

The 30 Carbine die set should be 3 dies as it is an almost straight case. The first die sizes and deprimes. The second die has the expander ball. The third die seats the bullet and also crimps if desired.

[EDG]

One die you can explore is the RCBS file trim die. Most of these dies are similar to a FL die except they are .010 larger than a FL die at the case mouth.
You can check with RCBS for the die dims. Sometimes they will tell you. Sometimes not.

I have a RCBS .38-55 file trim die that used with the right brass sizes brass to the correct size that only requires a little flare and no expanding. Seated bullets produce no bulge.

[Bmi48219]

I just loaded four hundred rounds .30 carbine using newly acquired Lee (w /carbide sizer)die set. The 200 LC brass that had been previously sized using a Lee Classic pound-in die, show no bulge loaded to 1.680" COL with Xtreme 110 plated RN. I sized 200 more W-W, R-P, Aquila & misc head stamp brass with the Lee carbide die, set per instructions (just touching shell holder at top of stroke) & all have a concentric bulge at bottom of bullet. I have to agree with others, the Lee carbide die squeezed cases down too much. Going to back it out some until I get it right.
Another thing I noticed, I used to measure & trim .30 brass (to 1.280") after sizing in Lee Classic sleeve. Tried this on the misc brass sized in Lee carbide die & found the trimmer pilot difficult / or harder to get into the case mouth. I think this is another indication I've set the sizer die too tight.
lastly the Lee shell holder that came with the die set doesn't grip the brass all that tight. Not a show stopper but i feel it requires a little more care to align brass / bullet / die for seating & crimp.

[1hole]

Straight wall" die sets usually have a decap pin in the sizer but they can't have an expander in the sizer.

Straight wall case expanders usually have a flaring cone that allows the user to make sure the bullet's base can enter the case without shaving the heels. Lyman's "M" expander (and Redding's copy) is the best expander made (for straight or bottle neck cases) but the user has to adjust it correctly to do it's job. Seems a lot of people don't push their expanders in far enough for the flare to contact the mouth. Or they over do it and ruin the case.

Off center neck bulges have nothing to do with presses, seater dies or shell holders. When a case neck is squeezed down more than is needed (and that's common), the expander or bullet itself must expand it back up. Necks usually have a thin or soft side and that's where most of the stretching/bulging occurs. Shell holders only need enough grip to pull the cases out of the dies, shell holders do nothing useful for centering anything, the dies do that.

The .30 Carbine cartridge does have a noticeable taper. Sizers MUST size case necks correctly, therefore cardide sizers - all of them - WILL make the cases a true cylinder; a straight wall. Thus, there is always excessive sizing of the body when using carbide sizers and "coke bottle" finished cartridges are the norm. Nothing is gained by sizing a straight case as far down as you can push it in a carbide die.

I don't like that and usually use my old steel sizers to avoid the look and to avoid over working hard to find cases. That doesn't mean the bulgy cartridges don't work as well as any.

[too many things]

you didnt say what brass you used , military is thicker and will cause it to under size. I dont run my mil cases only about 1/2 in to resizer

[taminsong]

I did run a couple of brass last night, backing out the lee sizing die a couple of turns and when I seat the bullet, 2 out 10, I got a nice clean no bulge ammo! But I already did order the dillon die, so, I must wait. Next week it would be here and I can do some test.

[pcmacd]

I have learned to use exclusively, Lyman "M" Series dies when sizing cases for semi autos or slide action rifles.

I've done many concentricity studies -- using the included ball or what-evah sizing widget as in: expander, compared to "NO EXPANDER", opening the neck after sizing with the "M" die.

There was absolutely NO CONTEST.

---> The results, while having small sample sizes, were startling.

For non-critical ammo on my Dillon 550, I put a LEE or RCBS decapper in stage position 1, with the sizing die in position 2, and the Lyman "M" in position three. You process ONE CASE with every pull of the lever.

---> That would be for semi-auto loadings.

For bolt or slide action rifles, I use, w/o exception, Redding dies with neck sizing donuts. (Redding will tell you not to use this system with a semi or slide action weapon... I've found that it works well if you pay attention for slide actions such as the Rem 760.)

This system ROCKS!

It is so superior to using the decap pin expander balls that I just don't know how anybody can keep from doing it any other way!