40 S&W on the way out?

[Tackleberry41]

Have seen it in a few articles that people don't want 40s anymore. Was at a friends this weekend, he works in a gun shop. He has a whole rack full of used 40 pistols, they can't sell. And his shop now gives $100 less on trades if they are 40 due to being unable to get rid of them.

[Earlwb]

I think that the market became saturated. Too many guns and not enough people to buy them. There is still a large selection of choices as to ammo though. So it hasn't gone completely out of favor. But with various law enforcement agencies switching to other calibers, it is hard to say. Of course the ammunition costs never really dropped all that much. But with the law enforcement agencies tight budgets that did hurt them. So I can see them switching to something cheaper. But the .40 S&W will still be around for a very long time still.

[Tackleberry41]

I know alot of departments are switching back to 9mm now. Funny how that little circle jerk has worked out. They got rid of 9mm as not having enough stopping power, 45 was to much for many to use. But now are switching back to 9mm why? Is it simply ammo prices?

And if there is this big drop in demand, how come prices do not reflect it? I have not seen a drop in 40 pistol prices. Seems contradictory if you have trouble moving some inventory due to demand, you would still keep the price up for the few willing to buy them.

I like the 40, yea I know it makes a slightly smaller hole than a 45. But a bit bigger than a 9mm. And its not incredibly hard to get a 200gr 40 bullet to go as fast as a 200gr 45 ACP. Or how they work really good in something with more barrel. A 45 ACP wont really speed up much in more barrel, 16 is actually probably to long for the ACP. Where my little Kel Tech carbine was hucking 150gr HP at 1540fps yesterday.

[Bonz]

Hated my S&W Shield .40, dislike my Kahr MK40 Elite, love my Sig Sauer P239 .40 and my Sig Sauer Traditional Match Elite Stainless .40 S&W 1911 is an outstanding target pistol. I have had several people say that they have fired a AR 15/Carbine chambered in .40 S&W and its a fantastic pistol caliber for a rifle.

[gpidaho]

I have a High Point 40 S&W carbine and prefer it to my Chiappa Citadel 9mm carbine. Kills the beverage cans lots deader. I do believe the 40 S&W is a better carbine round than it is out of a pistol. Gp

[GhostHawk]

I'm with gpidaho my Hipoint .40sw carbine is an awesome tool for close range. That being IMO inside 50 meters.

I have seen my wife just totally shred a 2" stick on bullseye target at 20 feet. Littorally all shots were well inside the edge, and in the center were only scraps and rags of paper left.

She turned and handed the gun to me when was empty with an unholy gleem in her eye. Wow! Put the dot where you want the bullet to go and it goes there, exactly there! Do they make those in something that doesn't bump your shoulder so much?

And that dot thing on top, I want one of those on my Ruger Mk III pistol.

For pure fun factor you can't beat it.

For handgun I mostly prefer .22lr and once in a while 9mm.
I have figured out that it is not the recoil that throws me off. It is the Bark. 7.62x25 barks bad, as does the .40.

It may be why some are switching back.

[Rebel Dave]

I have to agree on the .40 S & W carbine. Mine is a great shooter, and is accurate. I'm not getting rid of my .40s.

Rebel Dave

[Tackleberry41]

I can see why 40 might not very popular in something compact. Not sure about the bark, my 40s and my tokarevs are not even in the same league when it comes to being loud.

[35remington]

The questions concerning this topic are inevitably linked to the 9mm.

It is interesting how rabid the 9mm adherents have become. According to them any other cartridge is darn near uncontrollable in a small or average sized gun, holding one shot less is a horrible tactical disadvantage, and the greater power and larger bullet diameter of the larger cartridges is of no advantage whatsoever.

I wonder how they know this? Did their chest hair all fall out such that they cannot manage anything else? I find it to be un persuasive argument myself one way or another.

I would point out that the 40 is in the middle of the "acceptable" range of self defense cartridges.

Still.

The guns hold plenty of ammo, not significantly different than a 9. That is where it was intended to be....in the middle. It still does that.

The 9mm boys best not feel too smug about their current ascendancy. It is quite possible a bottlenecked high velocity .22 might replace their own round someday, with the 9 being labeled as unable to pierce soft body armor and castigated as "uncontrollable in repeat fire."

[Garyshome]

I like my glock 23. I shoot it pretty well.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I was just shooting my 40 cal Hi Point (pistol) this week, testing some loads with the Lee 175gr (traditional lube groove), but I tumbled them with 45-45-10 and a second TL coat of BLL. I load 40 a bit HOT, but still under MAX. Boolits were unsized, measuring .402 I got some leading, but didn't effect the accuracy at the short range I was shooting (50'), I shot about 50 rounds, first cleaning patch had some silver sparkles, and I had to break out the 0000 steel wool to get the rest, no biggie really. I guess I'll go back to the SL68B for that load.

[FergusonTO35]

I don't care for most factory .40 loads, they feel like they are overpressured to me. Now, a dedicated mid-pressure cast boolit load for the .40 sounds like it would be awesome. Something like a 180 grain flat point chugging along at 900 fps. It would be like having a 15 shot .44 Special!

[robertbank]

Maybe on the civilian side of the market the 40 cal is in decline but up here most Municipal and Provincial armed departments use the .40cal while the Federal Gov't uses the 9MM in keeping with our Armed Forces. That would include the RCMP, Federal Fisheries etc.

I have to admit 40 cal guns on the Exchange side of one of the major gun boards seem never to get picked up unless they are specific pistols for IPSC Standard Division.

Take Care

Bob

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

The nice thing about range pickup 40 cal brass is they are so plentiful, that they are priced cheap, usually about the same price as scrap. I think that last batch I bought was 8k for $160 shipped.

[dverna]

I have heard part of the reason for the move back to 9mm is due to recoil. It is also stated that with the newer better 9mm bullets, the 9mm does not lose much in killing effectiveness over the .40. My own opinion is bigger is better if you can handle it.

One advantage of the .40 is that in many pistols you can add a 9mm barrel (and mags) and shoot both calibers. I do that with my Glock 22's. 9mm's are a bit cheaper to shoot and have less recoil. I went through about 600 rounds at a Frontsight course and they do not allow reloads. Saving $4 a box on 12 boxes was close to 50% the cost of the 9mm barrel.

[NavyVet1959]

As long as .40SW is around, I'll have a cheap source of brass for my 10mm firearms. I don't see much in the way of 10mm range pickup brass, but there's plenty of .40SW. I just load the .40SW brass to 10mm OAL and pressure and it works great. You end up headspacing on the extractor though. Some people have a concern with this, but many of us who do it have never had a problem with it. If you look at the .460 Rowland, it states that it can also shoot .45ACP and .45SUPER in the same chamber. To do so, it is headspacing on the extractor.

[Tackleberry41]

Some issues I can see. Like range restrictions, no reloads. Yea 9mm is cheaper than 40. I shoot at my house, so nobody cares what I do or use. Cant remember last time I paid to shoot anywhere.

40 seems to be the red headed step child. Some still know it as the glock kaboom caliber, like it was the ammo vs the gun. The 9mm people dont like it as its not..9mm. And of course 45 people, its not 45. Was a time when 9mm was not that effective, but times change. I do not feel undergunned with a 9mm to carry. Sure I would like one of the new 45 S&W shields. I have 3 guns to feed 45ACP, 2 are revolvers. Still shooting my first pistol a 9mm Browning HP, doubt I will ever get rid of it. Still have my first 1911, 'frankenstein' from all the parts its had put in it. I have been told alot of departments are shifting to 357 Sig vs the 40. I reload and like the 357 sig.

Friend of mines complain is he does not shoot it well. I have not found a difference between 9mm/40/45. If anything it was the gun he had. My 9mm shield is not very accurate, but its that short barrel not the caliber. Be like saying 38 spcl is junk because a snubnose isnt very accurate. The FNS40 shoots just as good as anything else I have. Been tempted to get the 9mm they have at the shop, but would sort of cut into my 45 shield budget and my AR15 upper budget and my.... Have been looking at the spectre 80% glock unit, but would go 40 so I can use 357 sig and 9mm in it.

[Walkingwolf]

I like the 40 S&W, have two Glocks 22, one for her, one for me. Brass is just as easy to find as 9mm brass, bullet cost is not that much more. And I prefer throwing a heavier slug slow, than fast high recoil that beat a gun up. A heavy 9mm slug is 147 grain, a light 40 slug is 155 grain, but I use 180 grain bullets at a mild 900fps. 40 just suits me.

I have been carrying the Glocks less, not because of the 40, but because the Glocks are just awkward. Just bought a Charter Arms pitbull in 40, and with my mild loads it is a good small revolver.

[Bigslug]

The .40 was originally more about selling guns than anything else. I initially felt it was an answer to a question I wasn't asking (being a 1911 junky who was perfectly happy with 7+1). Now it seems like it was the answer to the wrong question. 20/20 hindsight and all. . .

The 158 grain .38 SWCHP worked pretty well, but everybody wanted capacity, so the guns went away in favor of wondernines. The high speed, light weight 9mm's didn't work so well, as was seen in Miami '86. The FBI wrung out the mechanics and we got heavier bullets that expanded more slowly, penetrated deeper, and worked about like the old .38's did - maybe a bit better due to magic petals and cutting jackets.

The thing was, the 9mm "ineffective" reputation was already there, the new bullet tech was here, no departments were buying new guns because of the shiny new pistols acquired during the revolver swap outs, and the gun companies needed cash. So we got told we needed a change, were foisted the .40 Swindle & Whitewash, and marched like zombies to buy it. . .then got guns that wore out too fast and the LCD's couldn't shoot.

So, people and agencies are waking up. The .40 never got super huge in civilian circles, but change in agencies is slow. It's typically a matter of "follow the FBI", as they have the budget to do the testing that the little departments don't. Give it another 10-20 years, and I think it'll be phasing into a historical oddity like the 38-.40 - albeit one with A LOT of guns for it on the used market.

[Petrol & Powder]

We all know the history of how the 40 S&W came to be so I will not spend a lot of time on that. I will say that I've never been overly impressed with the cartridge. It lands almost exactly between the 9mm and 45 ACP in terms of diameter, weight and velocity. It doesn't seem to do anything significantly better than those two cartridges.
People that like the cartridge tend to claim that it is faster than a 45 ACP and heavier than a 9mm Lugar.
I tend to see the 40 S&W as being slower than the 9mm and lighter than the 45 ACP :wink:.

I never really understood how a 125 grain hollow point fired out of a .357 mag at around 1325 fps was considered a great cartridge but a 115 grain +P hollow point fired from a 9mm and going around 1325 fps (and even faster when +P+) was often considered marginal. Was that 10 grain and .002" difference that critical ?

[Petrol & Powder]

The .40 was originally more about selling guns than anything else. I initially felt it was an answer to a question I wasn't asking (being a 1911 junky who was perfectly happy with 7+1). Now it seems like it was the answer to the wrong question. 20/20 hindsight and all. . .

The 158 grain .38 SWCHP worked pretty well, but everybody wanted capacity, so the guns went away in favor of wondernines. The high speed, light weight 9mm's didn't work so well, as was seen in Miami '86. The FBI wrung out the mechanics and we got heavier bullets that expanded more slowly, penetrated deeper, and worked about like the old .38's did - maybe a bit better due to magic petals and cutting jackets.

The thing was, the 9mm "ineffective" reputation was already there, the new bullet tech was here, no departments were buying new guns because of the shiny new pistols acquired during the revolver swap outs, and the gun companies needed cash. So we got told we needed a change, were foisted the .40 Swindle & Whitewash, and marched like zombies to buy it. . .then got guns that wore out too fast and the LCD's couldn't shoot.

So, people and agencies are waking up. The .40 never got super huge in civilian circles, but change in agencies is slow. It's typically a matter of "follow the FBI", as they have the budget to do the testing that the little departments don't. Give it another 10-20 years, and I think it'll be phasing into a historical oddity like the 38-.40 - albeit one with A LOT of guns for it on the used market.

/\ THIS IS ON POINT /\

And to add to this, when the FBI went looking for a new cartridge after the 86 Miami shootout...... to fix bad tactics????.....that new cartridge couldn't be something that already existed. They had to come up with something new that didn't exist because if it existed the argument would be "why weren't you using that cartridge already?".
Once the FBI anointed the 40 S&W the market took off.

[warboar_21]

I don't think the 40 is going anywhere soon.
Out of a full size duty gun it's great. Out of a small compact CCW the guns are far to snappy for many shooters.

[warboar_21]

/\ THIS IS ON POINT /\

And to add to this, when the FBI went looking for a new cartridge after the 86 Miami shootout...... to fix bad tactics????.....that new cartridge couldn't be something that already existed. They had to come up with something new that didn't exist because if it existed the argument would be "why weren't you using that cartridge already?".
Once the FBI anointed the 40 S&W the market took off.

If I remember right they switched to the 10MM first before finding out that while the 10mm would certainly fit the bill the guns that it was being fired from and many agents couldn't handle it. That is were the 40S&W was born.

[robertbank]

If I remember right they switched to the 10MM first before finding out that while the 10mm would certainly fit the bill the guns that it was being fired from and many agents couldn't handle it. That is were the 40S&W was born.

For the win.

Take Care

Bob

[MT Gianni]

As a cartridge I like it. I have a Kahr Cm 40 that is easily controllable, fits in my palm and is accurate. What is not to like. I read gun tests that claim the 9mm CM is a handful and wonder what 5th grader they had shooting it. My S&W is a fun thing to shoot as well. Neither group as well as the Kimber 45, nor shoot as rapidly between reloads as a CZ75 but I am happy with it as a carry cartridge.

[35remington]

Yes. The 40 was adopted after defining what worked well with the protocols and ammo available at the time, then going after it after making a 10mm misstep? along the way.

Suggesting the idea to develop it was ill considered or political won't wash. It must have worked quite acceptably or so many wouldn't have used it for so long. They got a gun that did what was desired at the time that held more ammo.

[JMax]

We need to remember that it was originally called the 40 Short & Weak but I do have one and enjoy it very much but carry a Glock 43 in 9mm every day due to size and weight.

[Petrol & Powder]

If I remember right they switched to the 10MM first before finding out that while the 10mm would certainly fit the bill the guns that it was being fired from and many agents couldn't handle it. That is were the 40S&W was born.

That's correct. The 10mm was the initial step and then the FBI downloaded the 10mm cartridge. At that point there was little need for the larger 10mm casing that required an equally large magazine & pistol. The 40 S&W was able to duplicate the ballistics of the downloaded 10mm and it could fit in a smaller package. Thus the 40 S&W was born.

The concept isn't horrible but it isn't really all that great either.

[daleraby]

This topic has, in general, been discussed around many a campfire since Cain and Abel. The 40 S&W and/or the 10mm FBI load are pretty much ballistic twins to my favorite, that being the 38 WCF, AKA 38-40 Winchester. That worthy chambering introduced in the post-civil war period, makes a fine six-gun cartridge delivering a 180 grain bullet on target at something like 800-900 FPS out of a 5 1/2" barrel and does considerably better out of a Winchester Model 73 or 92 carbine or rifle. The same package in an automatic load is just as good as it has always been in a rimmed revolver cartridge.

That said, my favorite has never been especially popular. Back in the day its competitors were 32 WCF AKA 32-20 Winchester, 44 WCF AKA 44-40 Winchester and everyone's favorite 45 Colt... though folks had to wait until the Model 92 before a carbine was available in that chambering. Not much has changed balistically; the battle now being between the 9mm, 40 S&W and .45 ACP.

The things that HAVE changed are technology, especially as it applies to bullet design and the demographics of police forces. Back in the day, a cop was generally a male of larger than average size with no small measure of gonadal fortitude. Now, he or she is as often as not some kind of social scientist as well as a shootist. Most women do not like recoil and it takes considerably more effort and expense to train ANYONE to shoot accurately with a heavy recoiler. 9mm, with its soft recoil in even the heavy modern loads is much easier to shoot accurately and with quick follow-up shots. Fast accurate shooting is pretty much the essence of successful gunfighting.

It may well be that the 40 S&W has become obsolete for law enforcement... but that does not mean it won't do for walking the trail or the beat with. I heard of a town constable in a town to the North of here who carried a Colt SAA in 44-40 well into the 1950's. He'd been shooting it so long he didn't even need the sights and saw no need for the then modern DA revolvers. Obsolete does not mean ineffective and if it ain't broke, there is no need to fix it.

[OptimusPanda]

I'm reminded of this video. It's pretty funny. "The People Who Carry .40 S&W" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuiePszwaho

[Tackleberry41]

I looked into the 38-40, since I like the caliber, but finding a gun was a serious issue.

It is funny to see it said 'the 40 is an answer to a question I never asked' like the gun makers call up one guy to ask if something should be made or not. So the question was asked or it would never have existed. Like the gun market goes and asks one guy if something should be made or not.

10mm is cool, but your back to a big heavy big to use it, and not exactly friendly to people with smaller hands. I like the 45 ACP, but it is limited due to pressure, you can only push so hard. The 45 super a modern update to it, that really hasn't gone anywhere. If 45 super was widely available, many would have shifted over, but it remains a handload thing. Glock tried to get a 45 in a smaller gun with the GAP, but its really not in high demand. But at least you can get ammo for it, place near me has a selection. If I didn't have to chase the brass, might look into it. I load for 45 super and 460 rowland, but in a wheel gun, so no digging thru the grass for my empties.

In this forum one would think people would be a little more open, considering the not in the book things we do. And the wide array of obsolete calibers people are loading. Some are getting into the 327 mag, 6 shots in what used to be a 5 shot gun. Makes you wonder if someone will make a 327 sig, or a 9mm necked down to 327. To get that little bit extra but in an autoloader.

I saw someone has a charter arms, I had seem them making them, but always been put off by charter arms not exactly stellar reputation. The guy I know in a shop says any he has seen are junk, but not sure how many he has seen.

[scattershot]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is ammo availability. During the late great unlamented ammo crisis, I could find .40 fairly easily.
The round does seem to have lost its luster, though, but the upside is that police turnins can be found very reasonably of late. Too, most of those can be converted to 9mm fairly readily, if that floats your boat.

[Earlwb]

I never really understood how a 125 grain hollow point fired out of a .357 mag at around 1325 fps was considered a great cartridge but a 115 grain +P hollow point fired from a 9mm and going around 1325 fps (and even faster when +P+) was often considered marginal. Was that 10 grain and .002" difference that critical ?

It was simply people didn't know any better. They never noticed the ballistics or were told about it. So they just jumped on the bandwagon and agreed with the others bad mouthing the 9mm in general and not the 9mm +P or 9mm+P+.

[Bigslug]

If I remember right they switched to the 10MM first before finding out that while the 10mm would certainly fit the bill the guns that it was being fired from and many agents couldn't handle it. That is were the 40S&W was born.

That, and the semi-auto technology of the late '80's not really being up to the task either.

One of the things I've learned is that the hard-chargers often come up with stuff that works well for them, but it often crashes and burns horribly when handed to the rank and file such was the case with the 10mm. Jeff Cooper thought it was a neat idea. A lot of knowledgeable gun writers thought it was a neat idea. People who couldn't care less thought it was a cannon.

Another post coming up.

[Bigslug]

/\ THIS IS ON POINT /\

And to add to this, when the FBI went looking for a new cartridge after the 86 Miami shootout...... to fix bad tactics????.....that new cartridge couldn't be something that already existed. They had to come up with something new that didn't exist because if it existed the argument would be "why weren't you using that cartridge already?".
Once the FBI anointed the 40 S&W the market took off.


Ah yes. . .the need for the "new":roll:

One of my initial reactions on reading the specs of the then-new .40 S&W was "Congrats guys. . .you just invented the .45ACP"

Not exactly though. They kinda duplicated the .45 - which typically does its thing under 20,000 psi - in a package that needs over 30,000 psi to do the same thing. A lot of the early guns wore and broke a lot of stuff. A lot of the next gen got bigger and heavier to deal with it. All in the name of "new".

We've seen it with sporting rifle cartridges in the name of faster/flatter/harder-hitting while the fans of the .30-30, .30-06, and even the .45-70 shrug and continue to put mountains of game in the freezer. We seem to be seeing (hopefully), that it's just a lump of lead, and that the hundred year old solutions are valid ones. They've stood the test of time. It's looking more and more like the .40 hasn't. Does it work? Sure. But when the modern, post-'86 ammo tech gets applied fairly across the board, it doesn't really do anything better and does some things worse than what we had before. Ammo will be loaded for it for ages to come - heck, you can go out and buy .218 Bee - but how long it stays a big agency, front-line duty round remains to be seen.

[leeggen]

Went the local gun shop saturday. Looked at the used guns and there were alot of revolvers in the case and in the autos there were more 9mm than anyof the other calibers. It is a locality thing I think as to what is in the used cases. Went to the son n laws local shop and the were several 45s in the cases. Seemed to be the more city area the smaller the caliber but back here in the more open area the larger calibers are kept. That is why differenant calibers are sold as with cars and trucks. Look how long the mustang and camaros have been around but the cougars and novas passed away.
CD

[DougGuy]

The .40 is pretty limited by running out of headroom fairly quickly, so there isn't a lot of loads for it that aren't already pegging the pressure ceiling. I found it quite limiting when handloading. Maybe factory ammo sees a greater variety but I bailed on it rather quickly when it came out.

[NavyVet1959]

First came the 10mm. Then the girly men over at the FBI found out that they couldn't handle it, so they created the 10mm-Lite. Then S&W decided that they could get the same power that the 10mm-Lite was producing in a shorter cartridge and the .40SW was born. It had the "advantage" of being shorter, thus a smaller frame firearm could be developed -- the same size as the 9x19s that were already on the market. This allowed the even girly-er FBI agents to be able to handle it (i.e. wrap their sensitive little hands around the grip). And thus, the girly-man caliber was born.

[fatelk]

The .40 is pretty limited by running out of headroom fairly quickly, so there isn't a lot of loads for it that aren't already pegging the pressure ceiling. I found it quite limiting when handloading.

Not challenging this, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying that it can't be effectively downloaded?

The only .40 I have is a Glock. It's not my only gun or my favorite gun, but I do like it well enough and never had a problem with it. I really only have one load for it; a 180 gr bullet at just over 900fps. It has always worked fine for me. As a personal preference I do prefer my CZ75 9mm.

[NavyVet1959]

Not challenging this, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying that it can't be effectively downloaded?

The only .40 I have is a Glock. It's not my only gun or my favorite gun, but I do like it well enough and never had a problem with it. I really only have one load for it; a 180 gr bullet at just over 900fps. It has always worked fine for me. As a personal preference I do prefer my CZ75 9mm.

I think what he's saying is that the normal loads already fill up the .40SW case pretty well given the existing bullet sizes / seating depths, so any powder increase would end up causing a non-linear pressure excursion.

Of course, that's not the case if you are loading those .40SW pieces of brass to 10mm OAL and pressure. On that, you just have more bullet showing. But, if your magazine can't handle the longer ammo and your barrel doesn't have an extended leade on it, that might not be an option.

http://images.spambob.net/navy-vet-1959/lee-tl410-210-swc-resized-10mm-loaded-320w.jpg

[historicfirearms]

I like the 40. It's easy to load and shoots cast just great. The best thing about it is that brass is cheap or free. As a casters cartridge it beats the 9mm by throwing a bigger and heavier slug. One other thing it has over the 9mm is brass consistency. 9mm brass has been made for so long and all over the world so the brass is variable.

[garym1a2]

I like the .40 Glocks quite a bit. I have a G22 and a G35. I use them for USPSA matches in production class. I can take the round all the way down to minor power factor with the 180gr TC bullet. (800fps). Brass being straight wall and easy to find is a plus. The round also can be loaded to max power factor and is quite popular in Limeted and open classes in double stack 1911 types. As a plus in the G22/G35 I have 9mm conversion barrels and they work great for when I want a 19 round mag. (17+2rnd extender.)

Not challenging this, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying that it can't be effectively downloaded?

The only .40 I have is a Glock. It's not my only gun or my favorite gun, but I do like it well enough and never had a problem with it. I really only have one load for it; a 180 gr bullet at just over 900fps. It has always worked fine for me. As a personal preference I do prefer my CZ75 9mm.

[Harter66]

The trouble with the 9mm/38 family is that bullet for bullet case for case the old rimmed cases dog the auto cases until you get to the 38 super auto which becomes basically a dead heat to the 357 . The 9 and 380get bonus points because nobody builds a pistol or rifle that holds 13- 30 rounds in handy little belt pockets that give the operator instant access to a couple 1000 rounds that take portions of a second to put in the arm.

The 45s have 143 yrs of experience and frankly there is next to no advantage in any 45 over any of the others unless you venture into heavies and/or +P loads or step up to the 454 C . ACP does get an edge for the magazine capacity in XD and Thomson categories. Who doesn't love the idea of 100 round drum ?

Apples to apples for the 40 . Does it come close to any 16,000 psi cousin , nope . Is there a magnum or another 30,000 psi cartridge to compare it to , just the 10mm . It is a stand alone auto cartridge . It has a poor bullet selection , looked for American 32 cal rifle bullets lately ? There aren't a lot of moulds for it ........ That's because nobody is bugging the makers for a 125 gr collar button or a 230 gr wad cutter , any wadcutter for that matter . It came to us with a 15 rd capacity and 30 rd alternative mags , everybody makes 1 , and in its nominal weights it gives up nothing to the 45 autos and out strips the 9mm clan by a fairly broad margin . It gives up 2 rd in a carry gun to the 9 but is an even split in modern sister pistols.

The 40 is probably the only "new" sales pitch I've bought and then I reviewed it for 20 yr . No I guess I bought it in the 6.8 also , but again after 20 yr of review .
What's it do for me ?
Capacity . Ballistics . Ms can handle it in a 3.5 " XD , she doesn't shoot the High Power clones well in 9mm and the 45s are intimidating to her . It fills the middle ground and does it well .

If we really compare apples to apples the 40 cal is in its own orchard .

[dragon813gt]

It's been on it's way out since they shortened the 10mm to create it. I'm one that never bought the hype. I understand that a 10mm is a lot to handle. But I'm on the smaller side w/ small hands and I can control it. Followup shots are not as fast as w/ 9mm. So I only carry it when out in the woods. The pistol size plays a major role in this decision as well.

I understand the whole "bigger hole" thing. But when you can have a pistol w/ more capacity and faster followup shots the bigger hole theory kind of falls apart. I did say kind of and not completely. Getting more rounds on target can be just as effective as a larger hole. Agencies make their decisions based on arbitrary reasons. When you have the choice carry what you're most comfortable w/.

So is anyone going to go all in as a speculator? Buy components and guns now while they're cheap? Hold onto to them for a few decades and then sell for a profit :laugh:

[fatelk]

I think what he's saying is that the normal loads already fill up the .40SW case pretty well given the existing bullet sizes / seating depths, so any powder increase would end up causing a non-linear pressure excursion.

I understand now; that makes sense. The standard load is pretty well maxed out?

It's been interesting reading the arguments back and forth, as I'd never really understood the love/hate controversy over the .40 S&W. To me it was always just another cartridge, though I thought it was a decent compromise between small and fast, and big and slow. I'll keep shooting it same as I always have, along with my 9 and .45, and .44, etc.. :)

[376Steyr]

As I understand it, the FBI is transitioning back to the 9mm, justifying the change based on the latest jacketed wonder bullets that perform so well in their ballistic gelatin test. We'll probably see the wheel spin back to the .45 and .40 in a few years, after another shootout, where they'll have their noses rubbed in the fact that bad guys are not made of ballistic gelatin. Me, I got a lifetime supply of .40 brass at scrap metal prices and lots of .40 moulds. A fellow could do worse than pick up some cheap .40 guns and squirrel them away, waiting for the demand to pick up.

[Tackleberry41]

The military has found themselves with a bit of an issue. When I went in the marines, we still had the 1911, not a whole lot of training on them. I think most would agree you do not get very proficient with a 45 after 2 magazines. And while the 1911 is a great pistol, it is a bit out dated. Its heavy carry around all day and only holds 7 rds. Not long after I got out of basic training they moved over to the M9 pistol. I never fired a single round out of one before trying to qualify with one, needless to say did not do so well. We went to kuwait for desert storm, they had issued 1911 to the corpsman, then took them back and handed out M9, with not quite 2 mags of ammo. They had never even pulled the trigger on them.

They used the M9 for a while, then went back to the 1911, buying all new guns. Now are on the search for a new pistol. Because what a surprise the 9mm is not very effective in FMJ format and the regular military are locked into the FMJ. Well in the military world its a choice of the 9mm or the 45ACP. And we still have the same issues with the 45, a bit big for people with small hands, thats generally the rear echelon people who would have need of a pistol. So really the only obvious choice is....the 40. Its still rather effective in FMJ format, and fits in smaller guns. Yes if they were allowed to use the very effective HP, be a different story, but there is not the option.

Most of the people I have met who dont like 40, its just personal preference. They cant point to any real data that says it sucks. Like the guy I know, he hates 40. Why? He did not shoot it well in the single gun he tried. So no point in trying it in anything else, or even shooting mine. 'Its a 40' spits on the ground. I look around in here at the crazy and obsolete calibers people are shooting, would think most would be a bit more open minded.

[Walkingwolf]

The .40 is pretty limited by running out of headroom fairly quickly, so there isn't a lot of loads for it that aren't already pegging the pressure ceiling. I found it quite limiting when handloading. Maybe factory ammo sees a greater variety but I bailed on it rather quickly when it came out.

Actually I find the 40 a very good round for reloading for those who are not on power drug trip. It basically throws a bullet a little heavier than the FBI load at the same velocity when downloaded. Makes for a very comfortable gun to shoot with a higher capacity than a revolver, for those who have capacity identity issues.

IMO factory loads are too hot for some weaker people, and some people just do not trust light weight bullets. For some of us the 40 porridge is just right.

For the record I am comfortable carrying anything from 32 to 45 for self defense. It has more to do with gun design than caliber. Though I like the handloaded 40, I do not like the feel of my Glocks. I have a policy about not selling or trading firearms, but if I change my mind the Glocks will be the first ones to go.

[kayala]

Just checked my safe - nope, all my 40s are accounted for and haven't moved out :D

[Kestrel4k]

My semi-auto pistol takes a back seat to my revolvers, but had a token .40S&W for many years - did think pretty highly of it though.

But am now getting into suppressors, and .40 is very difficult to get subsonic; while it's very easy to run 9mm subsonic - so I traded for a Beretta 92 & suppressed that.
So there is another aspect of that debate.

[cainttype]

Elmer thought a 40 cal bullet of about 180 grains at moderate velocity (38-40 anyone?) would be a great law enforcent/personal defense choice in a mid-weight handgun... Smith and Wesson gave him the 41 Mag in a heavier revolver instead (a personal favorite). A great hunting combo, but more "OOMPH" and weight than desirable for what he had in mind for LE/PD.

The FBI's search for a replacement, after their 9MM +P+'s dismal failures in Miami, introduced substantial increases in required "PENETRATION" to the tests that followed.
The 10MM easily blew the new requirements away. Downloading the 10MM to launch a 180 grain bullet at 850fps satisfied the new standards (So did the 45acp, by the way). The FBI touted lower velocity "standard" and high speed "heavy" load options as a win/win situation, although most saw it as a way to lower recoil for the "recoil-sensitive" weaker shooters wearing the badge.
Smith and Wesson simply waited until the extensive testing posted results and the selection was made, then took the 10MM case, switched to small primer, and trimmed till there was just enough case capacity to launch a 180 grain bullet a 850 fps (I'm sure Elmer smiled).
The shorter case had the benefit of fitting into small 9MM frames, and could carry more rounds in any frame than the 45acp... both marketing biggies, and the eventual huge sales numbers proved it.
Over the complaints of the "40 Short and Weak", "10MM Wimp", and "It will be a flop" gun-rag pessimists who predicted it's immediate rejection by the firearms community, the 40 S&W achieved success faster and more dominantly than any other cartridge ever introduced for it's intended purpose.
Cheap and plentiful component availability (along with the myriad platforms that chamber it) are just icing on the cake... The 40S&W's performance window will guarantee it's continued success in it's target market, LE and personal defense... That's what I believe.
The 40 S&W will be around for A LOOONG time to come.


All that from a shooter that has never owned a 40 S&W, although it's parent (the 10MM) has been a standard toy for almost 30 years here.

[Walkingwolf]

The 40 is a good police cartridge if the velocity, and pressure is not pushed. At the right velocity it is as comfortable to shoot as 45 acp with a higher capacity. But the 9mm is also a good police cartridge with higher pressure, faster moving lighter bullets. 9mm only gains a couple cartridges extra capacity.

The problem I see with LE is not the cartridge, but the tactics, and the poor marksmanship that seems to have plagued them since switching from revolvers.

I keep seeing cops, who should know better, do stupid things. Problem is everybody gets angry when the poor tactics are discussed.

The 40 worked for Darren Wilson, but it almost was used on him. While he was justified, he did not use common sense, this is not the gun, or cartridges fault. I use DW as an example because his GJ testimony was ripe with his mistakes. This is where LE should be concentrating, instead of spending money constantly changing firearms.

Most shootings where officers get in a bind they made some mistake, instead of throwing money away more rehashing each incident, and training should follow.

[slughammer]

To the original post about used 40's getting $100 less as a trade in. Probably because new gun buyers are being coached by guys like me. If you go into 5 stores or indoor shooting ranges, 9mm can be found for $12-15 a box. Perhaps you can find .40 for $4-5 more, or perhaps it's $10 more...
I also try to steer new owners toward 9mm, because of their ability to handle 9mm compared to 40. For an experienced shooter 40 can be a step up in power, but it's only a small gain over 9mm and all the good defensive ammo available nowadays. Besides we all know that handguns poke holes in things, and sometimes that hole leads to something important.

[cainttype]

The revamped testing that led to the FBI's adoption of the "10MM Lite" load showed a 40 cal 180 grain bullet at 850 fps was a substantial improvement over the previously approved 9MMs in penetration (permanent wound channel potential) through barriers from T-shirts, car doors, and window glass (among others)... reliably.
It was those tougher penetration requirements that eliminated the existing 9MM choices, had the FBI adopt the 10MM as it's service round, and eventually gave birth to the idea of shortening the 10MM's case to create the 40 S&W.
Some view that as a pretty impressive gain over the 9MM's potential, if the need to fire a shot in anger ever suddenly becomes a reality.

As far as what anything brings at sale, or resale, the market runs on "supply and demand". So many 40 S&Ws have been manufactured and sold over the past couple decades that the market has been saturated, lowering prices... I wish it would happen to a couple other firearms I'd like to see cheaper.

[Harter66]

Apples to apples
Data from an App that seems to run close if not exactly to books . It draws from on line powder manufacturers data .
With a comparable 124/5 the 9&40 are close , 140 to 147 it's close , 147 to 150 um not close . 40 to 45 ACP at 200 gr again close and while I didn't bring it forward in the 180/185 class the 40 actually has the edge but by a hairs breadth.

40 S&W
125 star fire
True blue 5.8 970 fps 311 ft-lb
6.4. 1078 355

CFE. 5.6. 1077. 322
6.4. 1237. 424

9mm
124 XTP.
Ramshot competition. 2.4 795 fps 174 ft-lb
3.0. 898 222

40 Barns TAC XP 140
HP 38. 4.4 965 289
4.8. 1016 321

150 Nosler JHP
CFE 7.0 1141 fps 433 ft-lb
7.8. 1267. 534

9mm
147 XTP Win auto comp
3.6. 827 223
4.0. 916. 274

40
200 XTP
CFE 4.4 833 308
4.8. 897. 357

45 ACP 200 XTP
Accurate #2 5.0. 855. 324
5.8 970. 418

The 40 is here and will probably hang in as a #4-6 over all and a #3-5 auto for carry for some time .

[cainttype]

A 147 gr is a pretty heavy 9MM, but a featherweight in 40.
The FBI data chose the 180 gr for good reason. If lighter is what someone is interested in, the 40 S&W with a 165 grain is no slouch.

Now take the numbers in the previous post and go to Hodgdon's Reloading website to compare with their published data using the 165 and 180 grain weights with the 40 S&W from a 4" barrel.
You will find the 165 with 13 loads over 1100 fps, the highest is 1205 fps.
The 180 grain search has 16 loads over 1000 fps, the highest is 1159 fps.
There is nothing "close" when comparing the 9MM to the 40 S&W if you factor in the best weights for each.

[9.3X62AL]

I like the 40. It's easy to load and shoots cast just great. The best thing about it is that brass is cheap or free. As a casters cartridge it beats the 9mm by throwing a bigger and heavier slug. One other thing it has over the 9mm is brass consistency. 9mm brass has been made for so long and all over the world so the brass is variable.

VERY variable. The 40 S&W's bore & groove dimensional integrity is MUCH better than that of the 9mm IME, though most 40s have the uber-stupid 1-10" or 4 turns/meter rifling twist that serves no good purpose--in 40 S&W or 9mm, given the short little squatty bullet profiles in use.

Recoil dynamics is the chief reason for the 9mm's return to popularity. The 40 S&W and the 45 ACP insist that the user actually develop a bit of skill and maintain that skill set in order to hit things with pistols in those calibers. This is a huge disadvantage when you are dealing with indifferent users more concerned about Cross Pens and computer/I-Phone software than with the serious matter of surviving an armed encounter. 30 caliber rifles and 40+ caliber handguns might be too much for casual shooters, but at some point--when stopping and ending a threat is an absolute and abrupt necessity--real guns rather than rat rigs are much preferred by some.

[warboar_21]

For the person posting that they traded for a 9mm because it was easier to shoot subsonic I am a bit puzzled by that comment. The 40s&w doesn't have many factory loadings that exceed the subsonic barrier let alone anything you want to hand load for. Now if you are referring to the availability of suppressors then I understand.

There have been several cartridges that have come and gone over the years that were just as good as the big three. It's just that the 9mm, 40s&w, and 45 acp are entrenched and are not going anywhere in our lifetimes.
One of them that I wanted to see do well was the 45 Gap. 45 acp performance out of a mid sized framed pistol such as the glock 19/23 frame size. A coworker bought one when they first hit the market. I really liked the concept and the size was just right. Thing was snappy as all get out though.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

[Walkingwolf]

My Glock 37 is comfortable to shoot, as comfortable as holding a 2X4 can get. But then my loads are not pushing the extreme. The GAP rounds also work well in my S&W 625. Less case volume equals less powder which for me equals less muzzle blast. Same reason I prefer 38 spl +P+ to 357.

With the number of 40 pistols out there it is not going anywhere anytime soon. In fact with the shift back to 9mm I can foresee massive government acquisition of 9mm ammo and the cost of that ammo rising. The cost of the 40 ammo staying the same or dropping.

I think the 9mm fanboys will find the rejoicing at government change to 9mm not to be a blessing.

[robertbank]

Well on this side of the 49th the 40 is safe as the pretty much all the Provinces have adopted the 40cal for Municipal policing. The Feds use the 9MM and drugges use the Glock 17. Seems like the drug gangs up here are recoil sensitive. They aren't much on accuracy either given the number of shootings vs actual hits unfortunately. :D

Take Care

Bob

[Tackleberry41]

For the person posting that they traded for a 9mm because it was easier to shoot subsonic I am a bit puzzled by that comment. The 40s&w doesn't have many factory loadings that exceed the subsonic barrier let alone anything you want to hand load for. Now if you are referring to the availability of suppressors then I understand.

There have been several cartridges that have come and gone over the years that were just as good as the big three. It's just that the 9mm, 40s&w, and 45 acp are entrenched and are not going anywhere in our lifetimes.
One of them that I wanted to see do well was the 45 Gap. 45 acp performance out of a mid sized framed pistol such as the glock 19/23 frame size. A coworker bought one when they first hit the market. I really liked the concept and the size was just right. Thing was snappy as all get out though.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

It really depends on what your using the subsonic loads in. In a pistol, they will generally stay subsonic except for the light weight loads like 135gr. But add any amount of barrel to the math, and that changes. A 16in barrel in a carbine, and you will have to find a load that stays subsonic. The min unique load from the lyman book w a 200gr cast barely stays subsonic in my kel tech Sub 2000. Thats at my house, I go shooting in the lower elevations and they start to go over the edge with the variations in velocity.

I looked at the 45 GAP, the guns are not in high demand. Most places dont carry any ammo. The 45GAP wont launch a 200gr bullet any faster than a 40 will, with less ammo in a mag. And theres the whole issue of chasing the brass, with the pressure your not supposed to use cut down ACP brass. And only glock sells guns in 45 GAP, Im not overly fond of glocks. Just to much downside for no real return on investment.

[rosewood]

Seems like the drug gangs up here are recoil sensitive. They aren't much on accuracy either given the number of shootings vs actual hits unfortunately. :D

Bob

The 9mm is more popular to hoods 'cause 40 isn't as easy to rhyme with as nine.

[9.3X62AL]

The law agency viewpoint is colored deeply by statistics akin to this--91% of police shots fired DO NOT connect with the intended target. Training time is scarce and expensive. If you can swap in a soft-recoiling system, a side-effect might be more effective targeting. There are a number of viewpoints this question can be examined from, all varying in validity and applicability. All of us regardless of career field or personal preferences have limits to recoil toleration in a handgun or shoulder arm. It isn't my place (or anyone else's) to dictate to others what is "best"--that is a call that each user has to make on his or her own, possibly with some input and assistance from others.

[NavyVet1959]

Seems like the drug gangs up here are recoil sensitive. They aren't much on accuracy either given the number of shootings vs actual hits unfortunately. :D


The same could be said with many of the police shootings in the US also. People worry about overpenetration of their rounds, but no one ever seems to consider that only about half of the rounds actually end up in the intended target even in daylight shootings (night is worse) and when multiple officers are involved the hit percentage goes *way down*.

https://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/117909-Study-reveals-important-truths-hidden-in-the-details-of-officer-involved-shootings

But, even with all this lead flying around and not hitting its intended targets, we don't see a lot of innocent bystanders getting hit. Maybe over-penetration is not that much of an issue.

[garym1a2]

If you want subsonic 40 in a carbine try a 180gr tc bullet with only 3.5 to 4.0 grs of either bullseye or WST. Those are real soft loads in a G22/G35 I have.

[robertbank]

The law agency viewpoint is colored deeply by statistics akin to this--91% of police shots fired DO NOT connect with the intended target. Training time is scarce and expensive. If you can swap in a soft-recoiling system, a side-effect might be more effective targeting. There are a number of viewpoints this question can be examined from, all varying in validity and applicability. All of us regardless of career field or personal preferences have limits to recoil toleration in a handgun or shoulder arm. It isn't my place (or anyone else's) to dictate to others what is "best"--that is a call that each user has to make on his or her own, possibly with some input and assistance from others.

Al I reread your post and the thought occurs to me if 91% of shots fired by Police Officers fail to hit their intended target why would we think civilian shooters would do any better? As evidence I look to the drug gang shootings down in Surrey outside of Vancouver. Once a month or more we hear on the news of shots being fired in Surrey but seldom do we hear of anyone actually getting shot. These situations are usually, but not always drive by, or simply shots fired from stationary vehicles. I recall one picture of a late model pick-ip being riddled with bullet holes and only one of the occupants sustained any injuries and he of course was not talking.

I concede that CCW individuals may have more firearm training than our local Somalian and East Indian drug gangs but the offset would be intent and from what I read there is no love lost when it comes to fighting for drug turf.

I bring this up because from what I read there appears do be a large segment of CCW folks who carry low capacity firearms nor so much for protection I assume, but for convenience - the guns often weigh less.

Take Care

Bob
ps My computer has a subset key structure that gets activated when I push a certain sequence of keys by mistake- I have not figured out which sequence it is. Instead of a question mark I get thisÉ. My apologies.

pps Came back and added the correct punctuation.

[NavyVet1959]

ps My computer has a subset key structure that gets activated when I push a certain sequence of keys by mistake- I have not figured out which sequence it is. Instead of a question mark I get thisÉ. My apologies.

https://victoriawebsolutions.com/rid-e-question-mark

[robertbank]

https://victoriawebsolutions.com/rid-e-question-mark

A thousand times thank you. What a PITA this has been.

Take Care

Bob

[jmorris]

.40 will be around longer than the people that know what a Winchester super short magnum is, will be.

[NavyVet1959]

A thousand times thank you. What a PITA this has been.


LMAO... Just need to do the right Google incantation...

https://www.google.com/search?q=question+mark+%C3%89&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

[dragon813gt]

.40 will be around longer than the people that know what a Winchester super short magnum is, will be.

This is a sure bet.

[9.3X62AL]

I think the 40 S&W is here to stay, at least for the foreseeable future. It just does too many things right for too many people--kinda like the 4" double-action 357 Magnum revolver.

[FergusonTO35]

Maybe the FBI will go full circle back to using K-frames with .38 Special 158 grain +P's. Then all the agencies will say "me too!" and start ditching the hi-cap plastic to gear up with old school iron.

It really cracks me up how much LE overthinks (and overspends on) guns and equipment without thinking about whether the average cop can even use it effectively.

[NavyVet1959]

Maybe the FBI will go full circle back to using K-frames with .38 Special 158 grain +P's. Then all the agencies will say "me too!" and start ditching the hi-cap plastic to gear up with old school iron.

It really cracks me up how much LE overthinks (and overspends on) guns and equipment without thinking about whether the average cop can even use it effectively.

Well, they could do like many of the cops have to do in the UK...

Instead of yelling, "Stop, or I'll shoot!", they have to yell, "Stop, or I'll yell 'stop' again!"

:)

[FergusonTO35]

With the non-marksmanship abilities many cops have that may be a better option. Or, just give them a realistic looking blank-only gun because the ultimate effect will be the same!

[Leadmelter]

At my club, we are fighting to get the 25/50 yard ranges staffed.
Anybody can shoot 20 feet.
Leadmelter
MI

[retread]

The nice thing about range pickup 40 cal brass is they are so plentiful, that they are priced cheap, usually about the same price as scrap. I think that last batch I bought was 8k for $160 shipped.

You are correct there Jon. That is the reason I got an SR40C. I like the gun. It is my winter carry gun. As far as recoil, I have not found it to be objectionable but I usually shoot my target loads and save the other stuff for carry. Good gun.

[Texas by God]

I'm late to the Forty Party but I like it so far. My .40 Shield is a 7shot 38-40 that fits in my jeans like a wallet. I will load 175 cast around 900 fps and be happy! As soon as I use up the j-words my buddy gave me that is. Best, Thomas.

[fjruple]

I believe a lot has to do with a recent FBI report that current upgraded 9mm are just effective as the the .40 S&W. Of course the 9mm pistol has a slightly more capacity than the .40 S&W. I pretty much shoot the 9mm, .40 S&W and .45ACP in a 1911 target frame. Of the three, the .40 S&W is the most violent in recoil. The 9mm being the least, followed by the .45ACP. From a target shooting prospective the 9mm suffers from a lack of a good accurate target round. S&W use to produce a nice target round when they produced ammunition. The .45ACP is quite versatile. The .40S&W I don't think has been quite developed to its full potential. If the round was download a bit and with a better bullet, the .40S&W could be the best cross between a 9mm and .45ACP.

Cheers

--fjruple

[FergusonTO35]

Totally agree. The ammo makers need to remember that you don't need all that pressure and velocity when you're launching a 180 grain slug.

[2wheelDuke]

There's still a ton of .40's in circulation, so I don't think they're going anywhere anytime soon. If PD's do unload the .40 in droves, that'll only further the civilian market.

I still don't have anything in .40 S&W, but I do have 10mm and a .400 cor-bon barrels, so I do have .40 molds.

I've been meaning to get a Glock 22 or 31 and some conversion barrels.

[FergusonTO35]

A local shop has some high mileage but serviceable ex-LE Glock 22's and 23's in stock. I'm tempted to get one and make it into a dedicated cast gun.

[dragon813gt]

It's not like you can't throw in new components on the cheap. If there is one thing going for Glock it's the low cost of replacement parts.

[Tackleberry41]

One would think with the glut of 40 guns on the market they would be cheaper. But they still want full price for them, even tho demand is down with a high supply.

[NavyVet1959]

One would think with the glut of 40 guns on the market they would be cheaper. But they still want full price for them, even tho demand is down with a high supply.

Paying full price for a used piece of plastic? Nawh, I don't think so... Hell, I'm not willing to pay full price on a *new* piece of plastic. :)

[Walkingwolf]

Paying full price for a used piece of plastic? Nawh, I don't think so... Hell, I'm not willing to pay full price on a *new* piece of plastic. :)

Glock sells their tupperware for a reduced price to police, fire, military. The rest of the public gets screwed. I don't understand it, I would not have bought my Glocks without the blue label price. OTH the S&W clone of the Glock is the same or less without a discount than the Glock with one. Kinda kicking myself for not going with the S&W in the first place. Especially since we hardly use the Glocks, my wife does not like hers, and I prefer revolvers.

[FergusonTO35]

Glock sells their tupperware for a reduced price to police, fire, military. The rest of the public gets screwed. I don't understand it, I would not have bought my Glocks without the blue label price. OTH the S&W clone of the Glock is the same or less without a discount than the Glock with one. Kinda kicking myself for not going with the S&W in the first place. Especially since we hardly use the Glocks, my wife does not like hers, and I prefer revolvers.

I really like Glock pistols but I don't like the way the company behaves in many ways. Personally I think the "Blue Label" pricing is monopolistic behavior and belittling to people who happen not to carry one on the job. I would like to see the company grow a pair and use more of their considerable leverage on behalf of RKBA. For example, ordinary citizens in California and some other places cannot buy the generation 4 Glocks because they are not on the "safe" list but LE and government agencies can. How about Glock no longer sell "unsafe" generation 4 guns to anyone in these places?

I still like the guns though, and especially the easy availability of parts and accessories.

[NavyVet1959]

I really like Glock pistols but I don't like the way the company behaves in many ways. Personally I think the "Blue Label" pricing is monopolistic behavior and belittling to people who happen not to carry one on the job. I would like to see the company grow a pair and use more of their considerable leverage on behalf of RKBA. For example, ordinary citizens in California and some other places cannot buy the generation 4 Glocks because they are not on the "safe" list but LE and government agencies can. How about Glock no longer sell "unsafe" generation 4 guns to anyone in these places?

I still like the guns though, and especially the easy availability of parts and accessories.

Well, if any gun deserved to *not* be on the "safe list", then it definitely would be Glock, considering that split trigger gimmick that they have the nerve to call a "safety". Although I have a couple, I don't consider it that much safer than carrying a M1911 in Condition-0.

[Walkingwolf]

Well, if any gun deserved to *not* be on the "safe list", then it definitely would be Glock, considering that split trigger gimmick that they have the nerve to call a "safety". Although I have a couple, I don't consider it that much safer than carrying a M1911 in Condition-0.
I agree with this^. A modern 1911 condition 0 is just as safe as a Glock, both will not fire unless the trigger is pulled, both have a relatively light trigger. At least the S&W SD has a trigger more like a DA revolver. Funny thing is IMO a Glock is in safer hands with a civilian, than a LEO. Civilians handle their guns less, and only clear leather when they intend to shoot as a general rule. Seems modern cops have a hard time keeping their booger hooks off the bang switch until time to shoot.

[NavyVet1959]

I agree with this^. A modern 1911 condition 0 is just as safe as a Glock, both will not fire unless the trigger is pulled, both have a relatively light trigger. At least the S&W SD has a trigger more like a DA revolver. Funny thing is IMO a Glock is in safer hands with a civilian, than a LEO. Civilians handle their guns less, and only clear leather when they intend to shoot as a general rule. Seems modern cops have a hard time keeping their booger hooks off the bang switch until time to shoot.

I have no problem carrying a handgun with a heavy DA (either DAO or DA/SA) pull without a safety or without the safety engaged. That long heavy trigger pull acts as a sort of safety -- more so than that spit trigger gimmick on the Glock does. With a Glock, you really need to use some sort of hard (Kydex) holster that completely covers the trigger or you're just playing Russian Roulette.

[Walkingwolf]

I have no problem carrying a handgun with a heavy DA (either DAO or DA/SA) pull without a safety or without the safety engaged. That long heavy trigger pull acts as a sort of safety -- more so than that spit trigger gimmick on the Glock does. With a Glock, you really need to use some sort of hard (Kydex) holster that completely covers the trigger or you're just playing Russian Roulette.

Funny thing, my wife can hit a pie plate at ten yards with no sights with a 17# DA trigger on a Colt PP. She is no muscle bound girl, so it amazes me these modern men who cannot shoot a gun with a 12# pull.

[snowwolfe]

I have a High Point 40 S&W carbine and prefer it to my Chiappa Citadel 9mm carbine. Kills the beverage cans lots deader. I do believe the 40 S&W is a better carbine round than it is out of a pistol. Gp

Same could be said for all handgun rounds

[Tackleberry41]

Guess I just figure if theres a glut of used 40s on the market and arent moving, dropping the price might actually move them. But if they are less popular now but the same price as a 9mm, guess what they aint gonna sell. Giving a lower trade in price, seems the point is to be able to list them cheaper. Not just screw people over.

[dragon813gt]

The "problem" is that a certain type of owner is willing to pay the price they're asking for them. They don't last long in my area even at to close to new prices.

[Lefty Red]

Guess I just figure if theres a glut of used 40s on the market and arent moving, dropping the price might actually move them. But if they are less popular now but the same price as a 9mm, guess what they aint gonna sell. Giving a lower trade in price, seems the point is to be able to list them cheaper. Not just screw people over.

There are two local gunshops here that will not trade for a 40 for the time being. There used 40 inventory is overflowing. They just are not moving around here.

As as far as the used market, the 40s are about $50-75 cheaper than a 9mm or 45ACP version.
One shop is pricing new Glock 40s $30 cheaper than other calibers in stock. Thinking of a Gen4 G27 sometimes soon.

Lefty

[Bookworm]

I went into a local pawnshop last week, just checking the inventory. There was not a 9mm in the case for sale.
There were over a dozen .40s, but no 9s.

I don't mind the idea of owning a 40, but I just don't want to get into the logistics of another caliber to reload. At least not at this time.

[hollywood63]

Well, if any gun deserved to *not* be on the "safe list", then it definitely would be Glock, considering that split trigger gimmick that they have the nerve to call a "safety". Although I have a couple, I don't consider it that much safer than carrying a M1911 in Condition-0.



Friends don't let friends buy glocks:mrgreen:

[cainttype]

One would think with the glut of 40 guns on the market they would be cheaper. But they still want full price for them, even tho demand is down with a high supply.

If your local market is saturated to the point that pawn shops don't even loan/purchase an item you're interested in, placing a "WTB" add in your local weekly thrift paper (or online Swap & Sell) can turn up really reasonable deals.
Let the guys trying to ditch the item know you're interested, and offer similar dirt-cheap buying rates a pawn shop would.

It's a "Perfect Storm" scenario for the buyer.

[FergusonTO35]

None of my Glocks have a light trigger using OEM components. My little 42 is pretty stiff, around 10 pounds. I would say the 19 and 26 are around 7. I carry all my guns with a holster that covers the trigger, don't know why anyone would not.

[Groo]

Groo here
The 40 short&weak is just a "neither fish nor fowl" type of round.
It fits in a 9mm frame well, it is bigger than a 9mm , more can be put the same space than a 45acp.
That's about it .
It beats up said 9mm frames, it kicks harder than a 9mm and has more blast than a 45 And it MUST be run at full pressure
to get it to perform.[can you say Glock Kboom?]
I have had 7 40's[3 glocks ,one sig 239,1 kahr,a XD sub compact and 1 witness]
ALL but the Kahr [sold] and the Witness [A Gold Team] are now 357 sig.
The ONLY 40 I have or have shot that could hold a good group at distance was the Witness.
All the guns converted to 357sig shot MUCH better.
I guess I am old school , ,, at 40cal and below all HP's need 1000 fps at impact to open [for sure]
Hits count misses don't, the more you shoot the greater chance you miss, and one hard strike is better than several light ones.
PS. the several small hits equal one big one ,does not work so well.
The first hit will be felt, but the others will not due to "the fight or flight" reaction.
If you do not convince the BG to give up with the first one ,the LEAST time the fight will last is 8 to 10 sec.[The time it takes to blackout with 0 blood pressure]
I look at a CCW as a system, The gun sized to the bullet,

[Lefty Red]

I think the 40 S&W is here to stay, at least for the foreseeable future. It just does too many things right for too many people--kinda like the 4" double-action 357 Magnum revolver.

I think that's giving the 40 WAY too much utility. I would say it's more like a 41 Magnum, not as accurate as the 357, nor the range of a 44 but has a rabid cult of believers. :)

[opos]

I have CZ 75B's in 9mm, .40 and .45 acp...I enjoy shooting all 3 of them at different times...I don't load for 9mm as it's been so cheap I have just grabbed a bunch now and then when I found some priced pretty low...I was going to load for .40 (with some reservations...don't like the pressure "window") but ran in to a guy that had several cases of Federal 135 grain HP and it shoots super and it was priced like 9mm (even a bit lower). I don't think I'll ever load 9mm or .40. I load a boat load of 45 acp and having big hands the CZ 97 is a real pleasure to shoot.

I think for just banging away and busting targets I like the .40 best...I have another pistol that is really accurate and the CZ is ok but nothing special so it kind of sits in the safe...I'll not use a 9mm for self defense in the home...I have .45's for that

I can't see the end of the .40....but having a closet full of ammo doesn't hurt either.

[DerekP Houston]

I like the 40...its almost as cheap as 9mm brass wise and packs a slightly better round. Doesn't hurt mine are all lead cast as well and I have plenty ;). Mine was a s&w police trade in, got my dad the exact same gun cause he liked mine.

[HATCH]

The South Carolina Highway Patrol currently uses Glock 37s (full size 45 gap) with S&W 640 (357 mag) as backup.
They are switching Jan 1, 2017 to Glock 17's 9mm and Glock 26s 9mm

The reason for the switch is (1) Cost of 45 gap ammo is expensive, (2) 9mm has more capacity then 40, (3) less recoil then 40

My friend has the contract with the State training range (SLED POLICE ACADEMY).
With the exception of the 4 times the SCHP shoot, 95% of the brass collected at the range is 40 cal
I would say that I see about 100K pieces of 40 cal every 6 to 8 weeks.
When SCHP shoot then 20K pieces of GAP get tossed into the mix. I own a Glock 37 just because of that. I figured I will shoot the 3 5 gal buckets of once fired GAP brass then sell the gun later.

I use 40 cal as my primary round. I do not pick up the brass I shoot. The reason being is that even though I have a Case Pro 100, I do not want to risk a kaboom in my Glocks from reloading brass 5 or 6 times. That and the fact that I have access to so much brass that its crazy.

The 40 sw is a very snappy round. Most shooters do not like it because of that fact.
My 12 year old son will shoot one mag (13 shots) of 40 every time we go to the range but he complains about it hurting his wrist and he shoots very slow because he takes breaks.

I own a 2nd gen Glock 22, 2nd gen Glock 23, and 3rd gen Glock 23. I just picked up a Ruger P94DC just because it was a good deal and I am gonna make that my house gun.
I also just picked up a Walther PPX 9mm pistol for $350. NIB. That way I will have a pistol to shoot 9mm in besides my High Power.

[9.3X62AL]

The 40 S&W is a mite snappy for some folks, certainly. I always suggest to those wanting to buy any firearm to give someone else's same or similar war toy a test drive before buying anything--a gun worth having costs a significant amount of money.

[Tackleberry41]

Is 40 cal kaboom pretty much restricted to glocks? Not heard of it in other weapons. Everything I have in 40 the case is fully supported.

[robertbank]

Is 40 cal kaboom pretty much restricted to glocks? Not heard of it in other weapons. Everything I have in 40 the case is fully supported.

Glocks but more specifically Generation 1 Glocks had barrels that did not fully enclose the base of the bullet. The brass would let go at the six o'clock position at the base of the case. This created the often referred to Glock bulge. I have not seen the bulge out of Gen 2 thru 4 Glocks, a frequent occurence early on. While the Kaboom as far as I know was limited to the 40 cal the Glock bulge could be found on 9MM brass as well. I had problems with some brass if I had my sizing die not fully down. Leaving the bulge there could, and in my case did, cause problems chambering reloaded ammo with the Glock bulge remained on the case.

Take Care

Bob

[Lefty Red]

I like the 40...its almost as cheap as 9mm brass wise and packs a slightly better round. Doesn't hurt mine are all lead cast as well and I have plenty ;). Mine was a s&w police trade in, got my dad the exact same gun cause he liked mine.

If the 40 was as cheap as the 9 ammo around here (we are going in and buying Federal Champ for like $8.75 a box when we order 5000 rounds) then it will survive. But an average price of 40 practice ammo is $14.95. 45ACP is $14.75, and 9mm is $9.50 for a box of 50. And that is what the average Joe Blow will pop off a month or payday.

I do do plan on taking advantage of this down tend by getting a G27 and G22 and putting a 357Sig barrel on them. If we go to serial numbers on ammo rounds or buying limits here in IL, then I just doubled my stash for those weapons.

Lefty

[Lefty Red]

Is 40 cal kaboom pretty much restricted to glocks? Not heard of it in other weapons. Everything I have in 40 the case is fully supported.

There was a few more KaBooms with the early 40cal ammo in other makes and models. But it was mostly a ammo issue. Federal was BAD! They made the cases as thin as the 9mm, some bean counter told them to save a fraction of a cent per round, instead of just use the thickness of the 10mm cases and just cut them down. Save a bit of change! So Glocks weren't the only brand suffering. Another bad omen for the 40 was the higher pressures the 180gr bullets was causing if set back just a bit! So we got 165grs, and then down to 155grs, and even down to 135grs. To help ease the pressures. BTW, the 135grs are at the top of allot ammo guru's list for carry rounds.

some early 40s, like the Ruger P90/91 series was built on the 45 frames and man they were tanks and could handle anything! Still wish I had mine.

I I still find Gen2 Glocks around at a very good price. I just shoot steel/AL cased ammo in them and done worry about it. To me it's not worth the extra money for an aftermarket barrel the
Gen2's.

[robertbank]

Here are the three Glock Gen barrels illustrating case support. Note the difference between Gen 1 and Gen 3

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a387/robertbank/Glock.jpg (http://s15.photobucket.com/user/robertbank/media/Glock.jpg.html)

Take Care

Bob

[gpidaho]

Walkingwolf: What do the throats measure on your Charter Arms Bulldog? Sorry if this has been covered. I haven't read all six pages. Thanks Gp

[Walkingwolf]

Walkingwolf: What do the throats measure on your Charter Arms Bulldog? Sorry if this has been covered. I haven't read all six pages. Thanks Gp

I didn't measure them, the gun shoots fine, and there was minimal velocity loss from a Glock barrel to the short barrel of the Pitbull.

[Tackleberry41]

I may look into one of those 40 cal pitbulls. Is it still the same size as the 44 cal guns? Seems like they would scale it down a little.

One thing I do like about the 40 is the ability to run 357 sig in them. I wish I could have gotten that 1911 to run 40, it was nice shooting when it did work. Might be that cheap Swenson barrel I got or using a govt 45 frame.

[lefty o]

some people love it, some people hate it, but its not going anywhere. since the 1st day it was announced old codgers who are stuck in their ways have been badmouthing the cartridge. it'll never catch on etc etc. 40short&weak (though 98% of 10mm ammo is loaded to the same exact specs, just cost 3x as much lol). as for seeing articles on it going away in gun rags, guess what its a matter of some bum writer who cant hold another job stirring the pot and selling an article. no matter what you think of the cartridge, most that fail to make it long term die off in 5yrs or less, the 40 is now pushing approx 27yrs. luv it or hate it, i dont think its going away or dying off any time soon.

[Walkingwolf]

I may look into one of those 40 cal pitbulls. Is it still the same size as the 44 cal guns? Seems like they would scale it down a little.

One thing I do like about the 40 is the ability to run 357 sig in them. I wish I could have gotten that 1911 to run 40, it was nice shooting when it did work. Might be that cheap Swenson barrel I got or using a govt 45 frame.

The barrel is shorter by .3 inch, I believe the rest of the stats are the same. Bulldog has a 2.5 inch barrel, and the Pitbull has a 2.2 inch barrel. But if you compare it to the Glock which the chamber is part of the barrel the Pitbull is not that far off of Glock 22, about 3/4 inch. I measured the total length including the chamber to tip of muzzle and it was slightly less than 4 inches. Could be why I had minimal velocity loss from Pitbull compared to the Glock 22. Accuracy was about the same as the Glock, probably due to the shorter sight radius.

[9.3X62AL]

I don't know what the future holds for the 40 S&W, though I don't see it fading out any time soon. In all my hobby life, though--I have yet to see a cartridge/caliber get traction and gain such wide acceptance in such a short time. Lefty O made a good point, that many 10mm loads are about the same intensity as 40 S&W. Not all, though. Refer to my little thread concerning my new Glock 29 elsewhere in this sub-section.

[Lefty Red]

Well, I will throw a little gas on the fire and say this......

THe FBI's statement on the most popular self defense calibers being equal is true.....FROM SERVICE SIZED WEAPONS AND WITH BARRELS OF AT LEAST 4". Well, what about when the weapon is a sub compact or pocket sized with a 2-3" barrel? Now things change. Technology has come a long way, but modern JHPs still need velocity to have the momentum to penetrate while still opening up. Allot of velocity is lost in those 1-2" from a service length barrel to the popular carrying weapons that most of us use.

This is were the 40SW shines. The 135-155 gr JHPs has that "sweet spot" and opens up in a more constant manner compared to the 9 or 45. Allots of data out there, but it's hard to get a bad round in the 40 in those weight ranges. But it's also it's down side as the data shows these bullets will under penetrate if not pushed at a higher velocity than its 165-180 grain counterparts.

And take this as just a gun geek that has been following the 40SW since I first read about it from Wiley Clapp. It's was my first duty weapon for AUX/RES. I'm not a fanboy of much, as I carry a snubnose or a compact 9 or 380. But wouldn't mind a G27 as it probably makes a better caliber/weapon combo since I can hit with it.

And as far as the "snappiness" of the 40, I still remember the days of steel weapons being on LEOs hips. When first introduced, there wasn't a bad word spoke of it. Everyone said it was a softer shooter than the 9mm! But with the LE going to lighterweight polymer framed weapons, then we started to see the wear and tear and the recoil being an issue.

Just thinking out loud.......

[RogerDat]

Well at least the brass is as cheap as any you can find. Literally going for about the same as scrap brass value. Never got into either the .40 or 9 mommy mommy. Don't make a very good selection of revolvers for either one so I'm not all that tempted. I have tried out both on occasion, 9mm more than the 40's but that might be because more people have the 9's or at least more that I know. I think a lot of novice shooters are advised to get a 9mm, or 380. Might explain why those 9's are scarce in some used gun cases while the 40's are not.

Seems like both .40 and 9mm deliver their intended ballistics. If those ballistics suit peoples needs they will use it. Me I like the 45 colt and .38 in either 357 magnum or 38 special. One big, one smaller and faster, and one just right :-)

It almost seems as if the .40 is like the old Toyota Corolla, a vanilla car. Sort of sporty but not a sports car, sort of a family sedan but not as big as most. The 9mm is a true sports car and the 45 is like a big four door Oldsmobile, no doubt it is a full sized sedan. Of course Toyota sold a whole lot of those vanilla Corolla's over the years.

I figure the 40 S&W will stick around, too many of them out there, across wide range of prices. I think it is a mistake to confuse a local glut in the market that impacts prices with a long term trend line. Of course the OP was sort of asking maybe to find out if it was local phenomenon or a general trend seen by lots of members.

[Greg S]

Brass is cheap but 9mm is cheaper. Tried the cool aid and found the pressure window and snappyness alittle much in a Sig 229 which was going to replace a Colt govt, cmdr and Officer. Stuck with the 1911. Besides, the 1911 was thinner. Don't need to fix sumtin that ain't broken.

[gpidaho]

Well Guys, this thread had me all fired up to go purchase a Charter Arms 40 revolver. I went on line Saturday morning and found that a Boise Id. shop listed them in short supply. Gave them a call to inquire and was told that they had two but they were in their Ogden Utah store. So if I wanted one I should drive 35 miles to their store, pay for it sight unseen and then drive back the 70 mile round trip to pick it up.(I've done $1,400 dollars trade in this store in the last 30 days) Heck, better just to buy from Bud's and have it shipped, no sales tax that way. Pawn shop in town sells Charter Arms so I had them check their source and the 40 was out of stock. %*%#%$^%# I just bought a Strikefire II Vortex for my 40 S&W carbine. Scoped it in today, love the sight, end of story. (for now) lol Gp

[Elkins45]

As long as .40SW is around, I'll have a cheap source of brass for my 10mm firearms. I don't see much in the way of 10mm range pickup brass, but there's plenty of .40SW. I just load the .40SW brass to 10mm OAL and pressure and it works great. You end up headspacing on the extractor though. Some people have a concern with this, but many of us who do it have never had a problem with it. If you look at the .460 Rowland, it states that it can also shoot .45ACP and .45SUPER in the same chamber. To do so, it is headspacing on the extractor.

I do exactly the same thing, but I bought a LW 40 barrel for my Glock 20 and had it throated to accept rounds at 10mm oal.

[Grapeshot]

Have seen it in a few articles that people don't want 40s anymore. Was at a friends this weekend, he works in a gun shop. He has a whole rack full of used 40 pistols, they can't sell. And his shop now gives $100 less on trades if they are 40 due to being unable to get rid of them.

I have seen the same thing in the indoor range I work at. It seems that the reliability of 9mm defensive ammo is equal to or better than .40 or .45. Or at least that's the tale we are being told.

[NavyVet1959]

I do exactly the same thing, but I bought a LW 40 barrel for my Glock 20 and had it throated to accept rounds at 10mm oal.

I've heard of people doing that with the Para 16.40 to make it into a double stack 10mm. Some just rechamber it completely into 10mm though. Personally, I would just get the throated like you did since I never buy factory 10mm ammo anyway and I have no problem with using the .40SW brass for 10mm loads.

It's been suggested that we call this this ".40SWL" (.40 S&W Long).

[historicfirearms]

I have a gun friend that mostly likes glocks and AR15's. I was telling him about a deal on a glock I found and that the gun was in 40 sw. He turned up his nose when I mentioned the caliber and when I asked him why his dislike, he said that the guys at AR15.com don't like the 40. He thought it was a "weaker" round than the 9mm. I tried to change his mind by telling him it shot a bigger and heavier bullet than the 9mm. No use though, the AR15.com mindset had already taken place.

[Tackleberry41]

I have a gun friend that mostly likes glocks and AR15's. I was telling him about a deal on a glock I found and that the gun was in 40 sw. He turned up his nose when I mentioned the caliber and when I asked him why his dislike, he said that the guys at AR15.com don't like the 40. He thought it was a "weaker" round than the 9mm. I tried to change his mind by telling him it shot a bigger and heavier bullet than the 9mm. No use though, the AR15.com mindset had already taken place.

Sounds like the guy I knew. His answer to why he didn't like 40 was 'he didnt shoot it well'. I had said something to someone we both know 'but he had 2 glocks in 40, one then a different one'. Maybe, but now if it aint a 45 dont even talk about it. But it does have to be in a glock format. I took an old S&W over, and he turned his nose up at it. Oddly the same S&W he had messed up. The common friend had it, this 'gunsmith' refinished it in duracoat. I bought it, none of the screws were tight, the duracoat was inside binding things up, and the new hammer spring he installed was hitting the back of the rebound slide.

9mm has come a long way, the new HP does work pretty good. I am not upset I bought the 9mm S&W shield vs 40. And 9mm is cheaper, but to be expected since it uses less materials than 40 which is usually less than 45.

[bruce drake]

178160
Not my photo but it explains my choice of a 40 caliber bullet. .400 Corbon in a 1911 frame. 40 caliber bullet with the ease of reforming 45ACP cases...
Left to Right 45ACP, .400 Corbon, 40 S&W

[9.3X62AL]

Well, if you can't or don't hit well with a system and its caliber, then by all means find one that you CAN score hits with. Hits matter--you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight (Thank you, Sgt. Varga--may you rest in peace). I respect the personal honesty of someone who says "Hey, I can't make the 40 S&W work for me--I'm using the 9mm".

I spoke with one of my old shop's range staff folks a short time back. Since 1994, my shop has authorized 9mm/147 JHP--40 S&W/180 JHP--and 45 ACP/230 JHP as autopistol carry calibers without prejudice concerning personnel venue assignment. As primary carry caliber, 40 S&W has about 70%-75% of the "market", 45 ACP about 20%-25%, and the 9mm takes up a few of the remaining slots--almost all of those plainclothes or admin postings. These are ALL personal choices made by the deputies themselves, who lay out the money to purchase and outfit the sideiron.

I have no idea what the demographics are at AR-15.com. I do know that my shop's personnel go in harm's way for a living, and things aren't like the days I started--when an OIS was rare and unique, about once a year or so within our county of 7,200 sq. miles. Frequency rate now is more than one per month, at times several per month--so the sitch prompts some serious consideration about what to use and how to use it. To folks like that, it isn't an intellectual exercise conducted in a sterile environment--no, this is real-time stuff, with real consequences couched in finality.

[NavyVet1959]

I have no idea what the demographics are at AR-15.com.

Probably like the demographics at any of the Glock specific sites. The plastic guns seem to attract the younger crowd. Us old farts like steel and wood. :)

Here's my idea of a perfect AR:

https://www.outdoorhub.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/02/outdoorhub-pictures-of-great-looking-wooden-furniture-for-ars-2016-02-03_21-31-38.jpg

[9.3X62AL]

THAT is a good-looking stocks set. Wood on an AR = good. Black plastic on a lever rifle of muzzle loader is like a camper shell on a Testarossa.

[NavyVet1959]

THAT is a good-looking stocks set. Wood on an AR = good. Black plastic on a lever rifle of muzzle loader is like a camper shell on a Testarossa.

The Turnbull ones are even nicer... They have case hardened steel for the metal parts.

But, since you mentioned the Testarossa...

https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6150/5951942735_f9877fe294_b.jpg

[DerekP Houston]

Probably like the demographics at any of the Glock specific sites. The plastic guns seem to attract the younger crowd. Us old farts like steel and wood. :)

Here's my idea of a perfect AR:

https://www.outdoorhub.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/02/outdoorhub-pictures-of-great-looking-wooden-furniture-for-ars-2016-02-03_21-31-38.jpg

Wow thats a nice set of furniture for an AR!

[Taylor810]

I like my Beretta Storm in 40SW, so I'll take any reloading components no body wants:drinks:

[Lefty Red]

I like my Beretta Storm in 40SW, so I'll take any reloading components no body wants:drinks:

that is probably the softest shooting handgun I have ever tried! Beretta has a winner there!

[Tackleberry41]

Well, if you can't or don't hit well with a system and its caliber, then by all means find one that you CAN score hits with. Hits matter--you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight (Thank you, Sgt. Varga--may you rest in peace). I respect the personal honesty of someone who says "Hey, I can't make the 40 S&W work for me--I'm using the 9mm".

Well it is one thing to shoot my 40 and then say 'I dont shoot this very well' vs not shooting it and saying 'I dont shoot 40 very well'. So several years ago he did not shoot a glock in 40 well, does not mean it applies to every 40. Or could simply be hes not the ace marksman he claims to be. We could apply that logic to my first experience w 9mm. On Parris Island we had trained with the 1911. I had never handled or fired a 9mm pistol till the day I was to qualify for my pistol badge. They handed me a Beretta, no practice rounds. So needless to say I did not do to well, got a pizza box. So therefore I should never own another 9mm as I 'do not shoot it well'? Do fine with my Browning HP, my S&W shield is not particularly accurate, but its the short barrel, not my skills.

It was more of a snob thing, he simply does not like anything but 45ACP....sort of. It has to be in a glock format. I took my old S&W to shoot, he wouldn't try it. Odd as its a gun he screwed up. A mutual friend had owned it, this 'gunsmith' had duracoated it. Except he sprayed the inside which was creating problems, left all the screws loose, and the new hammer spring was binding up on the back of the rebound slide. Nor would he try my ruger blackhawk w a ACP cyl. Wouldn't touch off any of the 45 super I had loaded, tho he was interested in running it in his glock. Guess he would get cooties.

AR15.com seems to be like alot of web sites. Theres only one acceptable opinion. Plenty of gun sites if you say the AR15 is not the most perfect weapon ever created, then your going to get attacked. The fan boys just pile on and dont stop. I remember the 'gunsmith' I knew had went and bought some super wombat bolt for his AR, dont think it made it thru a magazine before it quit extracting. Well the extractor was proprietary, so had to wait a week for a replacement parts. Vs my 'junk' bolt that has always worked fine, and the spring and extractor are cheap and readily available if ever needed.

[FergusonTO35]

Buddy of mine used to have a Beretta 96. Very accurate and soft shooting, I can honestly say it is the only .40 I have actually enjoyed. Only problem was it demanded stout ammo to function, otherwise FTF city.

[FergusonTO35]

Probably like the demographics at any of the Glock specific sites. The plastic guns seem to attract the younger crowd. Us old farts like steel and wood. :)

Here's my idea of a perfect AR:

https://www.outdoorhub.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/02/outdoorhub-pictures-of-great-looking-wooden-furniture-for-ars-2016-02-03_21-31-38.jpg

That rifle ain't the only pretty thing in the picture!!:drinks:

[NavyVet1959]

That rifle ain't the only pretty thing in the picture!!:drinks:

Well, let's just say that of all the photos of ARs with wood furniture on the web, the other thing in this photo did convince me to use this one instead. :)

[bruce drake]

178225Hey! Tactical trapdoors need love too!!! (No actual Trapdoors were bubba-ed in the creation of this picture...)

[Blackwater]

I absolutely love the sense of humor and sentiments of you guys! that indeed IS a fine looking AR, Vet. And 9.3 nearly made me spit my water on the screen! It's tough reading here sometimes! Risk choking in some threads! :kidding:

As to the .40 dying, I don't see that as possible, simply due to all the police guns out there. Like a military round, produced in massive numbers, it'll be around and ammo available for a long time, just on that basis alone. As to its raison d'etre - better effectiveness at a tolerable level of recoil, I thought that was going down a rabbit hole at the start. I have kind'a loosely formed a theory I tend to call "threshold theory." It's really simple. All it says, basically, is that there are certain thresholds of performance that just seem to work in actual experience.

In smaller calibers like .357, one needs velocity to be truly effective on game or for self defense, and the .357 hits just the right level of performance to be effective, IF the right bullets for the purpose at hand are chosen. Relying on velocity makes particular bullet selection THE most critical part of the matter.

On the other hand, the larg diameter heavy bullets just plain work differently, and depend more on blood loss and organ damage, and tend to "hit harder" on impact, sort'a like comparing a Mike Tyson roundhouse to a welterweight's quick jab. Both can do the job, but they are observably different in how they work.

"Compromises," which is what the .40 was from the beginning, just don't seem to be quite fish nor fowl in this theory. Yeah, people DO succumb to it, and it ain't no slouch, BUT .... I still think the .357 and .45's are the best of all possible choices, or their equivalents. I'd include the .44 Special in with the .45's too, especially if it's loaded a little better than the factory pressures, and with a good, flat pointed bullet.

The key to ANY self defense or game shooting situation, though, is and will always be bullet placement. That's not what many WANT to hear, but it's the plain and simple truth of the matter. A .38 Spec. with the notoriously "ineffective" RNL bullet from a 2" snubby, in the right place, beats a fringe hit with a .454 ANY day! Center hits simply MATTER. And if someone has a real problem with recoil, I'd rather see them toting a .380 they CAN shoot, rather than anything larger that they have serious trouble with.

The .40 kicks more than a 9mm. and IS probably a bit more "effective" given fair but not center hits. But it's center hits that matter the MOST of anything in the "stopping" equation, whether it's men or deer or hogs or whatever. A .22 LR in the right place stops the action. A .44 mag. on the fringe just gets the adrenaline going, and it's off to the races! So I like all calibers, including the .40, but I just find little use for it for my personal activities.

In the military, limited to RNFMJ bullets, there'll likely never be a development nearly as good as the old standard .45 ACP. The 9mm. was famous for its penetration, and Nazis sometimes lined up several prisoners, and executed them all with a single shot, to save ammo, but it has NEVER been known as a good "stopper" with FMJ's. Good loads with good JHP's and warm loads with the right powders, and it's at least passable, if the recipient of said bullets isn't wearing significantly tough body armor. For me, though, my EDC gun is a mini-.380, and about all my other guns are in calibers that start with .4, except my .357's and a Colt DC in .38 Spec. that's a good gun for coat pockets in winter. It's the gun itself that sold me on that one, though. Simply a real beauty!

But whatever goes down, rule no. 1 is simply "Have a gun," and an EDC gun needs to be amenable to hiding on our EDC clothing, so that restricts its size, and that can vary from guy to guy or woman to woman. But you DO have to "have a gun" of SOME type, and the smaller it is, the more weight must be given to bullet placement. With most SD situations occuring at pretty short to arm's length distances, it's not all that tough to do just that, IF we practice it. It's SO easy to miss, if we haven't practiced, and if we're gonna' miss, why carry???

This is how I look at the .40 and the related issues that affect it, anyway. I like it better than the 9mm. but if going that large, why not shoot a .45? And I too have a .400 Cor Bon barrel for my 1911's, and I've been very impressed by its terminal performance. It has good doses of diameter, wt. and velocity, and all I've killed with it so far is an armadillo. I hit it in the center of the right ham, and the bullet came out the left side of the front of the chest, and laid out most of the entrails for about 18" in front of where it fell! Just plain gutted it! That's pretty impressive. It was a 135 gr. Cor Bon load, which was probably optimum for armadillos, I think. The 150's or 165's would be my choice for SD because you need more penetration, or might, than the lighter bullet offers.

But it's always good for a good "my caliber's better than your caliber" campfire row. :mrgreen: Where would we be without those?

[9.3X62AL]

I might not be able to un-see that Ferrari photo, but that shooter with the natural-stocked AR-15 is a comely lass indeed.

My last 4 years of work saw me with a Beretta 96 in 40 S&W. It and one other 40 S&W were and are very smooth rides, indeed. The other is my CZ-75B in "10mm Short & Weak". The CZ-75B is VERY lead-friendly, owing to its conventional rifling pitched at 1-16". Most 40 S&W use the uber-fast-for-application 1-10" or slightly faster 4 turns/meter.

Blackwater makes some succinct points in his post. The Beretta 96 is a large pistol. Like its pre-cursor the 92-series in 9mm, it is fully the same size as a 1911A1 45 ACP. Curiously, the B-96 and my CZ-75B have identical mag capacity--12 rounds. Same story with the B-92 and my SIG P-226 in 9mm--both have 15-round mags. If outboard carry is the name of the game, then no issue--but if concealment is part of the program, then the Beretta isn't for small-statured folks--and its use of potential mag capacity isn't real efficient. Using the assigned duty ammo--W-W Ranger SXT 180 grain JHP (and now its analog 180 WWB JHP)--the Beretta 96 ran fine for me.

"Effectiveness"? Both 40 S&W and 45 ACP at my shop have been quite decisive on the street, as long as bullets are placed where they need to go. When 91% of your shots fired go somewhere other than into the intended armed assailant, caliber may be a problem (too much of same, perhaps) but bullet weight/design/profile/expense sure as h--l isn't. The answer--ALWAYS--is more and better range time. But training costs money, and the wonks in the cubicle farms wearing propeller hats hate to spend money on salary cost and ammo when they can be buying much cooler toys like body-worn cameras (the latest panacea for all that ails law enforcement) or the latest upgrade to Central Dispatch and 9-1-1, so that PSAP operators can more efficiently aggravate citizens in dire need of assistance. I had a recent experience of this sort, perhaps I'm still a little peeved about that. Call me Rip Van Winkle.

[marlin39a]

I love my 9mm handguns, and cast and shoot plenty. For carry I prefer my S&W Shield in 40S&W loaded with Hornady 165 gr Critical Defense. They still sell like hotcakes over the 9mm version. The 40 is still Allocated at www.galleryofguns.com.