Lyman Muzzleloaders

[OnHoPr]

Where are Lyman muzzleloaders made? US or Spain, Madagascar? Do they use US steel? Anybody ever use that Mustang Breakaway 209?

[Omnivore]

They're Italian. The barrels are stamped "Investarm - Italy". Don't know where the steel comes from, and you may be hard pressed to get them to tell you. Earth, I expect. What would it matter? You're going to split the wood stock long before you could ever burst or bulge the barrel. The steel, regardless of which planet it comes from, is more than good enough.

Lyman rifles are OK, to pretty good, and can often shoot very well. Like most of the "sort of reproductions" of traditional designs, they are designed and built to fill a price point. They do pretty well for the price. I have two, one of which has been my only ML season hunting rifle for many years.

[Taylor]

Italy--Invest Arms.

I have one,I like it,good shooter.176344

Trigger is kinda nasty,rough and then it pulls smooth and easy,about 4 lbs.I did find mention of adjustment,but when I get to 3 lbs the safety won't go into place.

It comes with bases attached,check them close.

The ramrod just plain sucks.
You will get no help or customer service from Lyman,it ain't gonna happen.The woman that answer's the phone,well she don't care.
The flashhole in the breech plug looks like it was cut with a dull chinese drill bit,maybe a little file work.Blow by/back is....a lot! After about 6 or 7 shots I could not get a socket on to get the plug out.Had to soak it in hot water.

But of all the things that I think sucks...it will shoot.

[rfd]

IMHO ... for a commercial production line rifle, i think investarms italy are truly the best and easily far better than the stuff created in spain (cva, traditions and others). wouldn't ever bother with any of the india built rifles - none of their barrels are proofed before exporting, anyway. the investarms firearms are rebranded as lyman, dixie gun works, cabelas, and probably other vendor brands. they're all the same and all are excellent for what they are. you want better? then without a doubt it'll take an excellent onshore gunmaker, using stellar components, and the price tag to match.

i have a GPR (investarms) .50 hawken half stock flinter (what? are you daft? everyone knows there's no such thing as a hawken half stock flinter! none were ever built ... maybe! hah!) that i assembled from a kit that i like lots. it was to bide my time as my custom hawken flinter is built by a very talented senior gunmaker in georgia. i was gonna sell the GPR after getting the custom, but after shooting it for over a month, nope, too good to pass on, it'll stay with me and it'll get used one way or another (a very good "guest" firearm).

http://i.imgur.com/cYxS3fl.jpg

[cbashooter]

My three lyman guns are unreal accuacy wise.
I.just changed the sights to more traditional style.

The Lyman Great Plains cap lock is an almost indistinguishable from an original Plains rifle.just the sights are non traditional.

[Fly]

My GPH is one of the best shooting muzzle loader I have in my collection, bar none.

Fly

[cbashooter]

My GPH is one of the best shooting muzzle loader I have in my collection, bar none.

Fly

Mine too.

[OnHoPr]

What about Knight, Remington, Ruger, other makers? American made. Just showing interest in a hammerless 209 system for strictly hunting. No caps or flints

[rfd]

What about Knight, Remington, Ruger, other makers? American made. Just showing interest in a hammerless 209 system for strictly hunting. No caps or flints


zip gun inlines are a diff'rent story whence compared to traditional sidelocks. no valid comparisons, imo - iow, like comparing a compound bow to a longbow. shoot whatever makes ya most happy and meets yer requirements. perhaps this ml forum should be split out between the two disciplines, as it does with certain other firearms and powders.

[Lead Fred]

There are two types of muzzle loaders, cheap third world production guns, and ones you build. (or have built)
Everyone starts off with a production gun, and either gives up on muzzle loading, or gets a custom built.
Production guns are not authentic, nor can you get replacement parts for most of them.
Inlines are muzzle loaders, just a way for some to kill more during hunting season.
Yur first one will be a side lock, your last one will be a flintlock.

So save your time and money and build a flintlock, and save money, time and frustration.

[OnHoPr]

zip gun inlines are a diff'rent story whence compared to traditional sidelocks. no valid comparisons, imo - iow, like comparing a compound bow to a longbow. shoot whatever makes ya most happy and meets yer requirements. perhaps this ml forum should be split out between the two disciplines, as it does with certain other firearms and powders.


There are two types of muzzle loaders, cheap third world production guns, and ones you build. (or have built)
Everyone starts off with a production gun, and either gives up on muzzle loading, or gets a custom built.
Production guns are not authentic, nor can you get replacement parts for most of them.
Inlines are muzzle loaders, just a way for some to kill more during hunting season.
Yur first one will be a side lock, your last one will be a flintlock.

So save your time and money and build a flintlock, and save money, time and frustration.

My initial OP mentioned the style of weapon and my second post was more defined. Now, I have been here five years and it always seems like you flinters, cap locks, and holy blackers are always jumping into a thread that concerns hunting with an inline or a sub powder and giving seemly somewhat pompous remarks even to veteran Cast Booliteers. Now if you want to go on your woods walks, rendezvous, reenactments and shoot your flinters and caps in a social type environment and BS with one another and enjoy the day, GREAT. You get to do a little historical convo, business, friendship, and social stuff. I looked on youtube and did not see one video of a woods walk in the rain, it must be a nice day sport of the 365 day year.

If you have only got 1 to 2 weeks of hunting season on heavily hunted PL and the weather could be anything. I don't want to drive 50, 100, 200 miles for the day or weekend to sit all day in the rain waiting for a doe or spike horn with a flinter that may only give a shot at 150 to 200 yards. That's the time when you guys are sitting at the :coffeecom or watching the college game on cable like a bunch of other people. That is also the time when deer just might be more active with the forest aromas flooding the woods.

One of the first years I had my TC Encore 50x209 it was 30 degree day for the evening hunt and it started the light freezing rain. At about dark I was just smoking my last smoke before calling it quits for the evening and three deer came out of the cedar swamp 5 YARDS in front of me while I was in an old half matted down brush blind. I couldn't pull the hammer back because it was frozen shut from the rain and getting colder from the darkness approaching. That's BS. So, if I am going HUNTING and spending hours and/or days in the woods if and when I see a legal game animal and want to shoot it I want something that works.

Oh, I am a southpaw and wear glasses, so I also don't want to be buying glasses after every season from flash pans or when caps split towards the shooter.

[bubba.50]

There are two types of muzzle loaders, cheap third world production guns, and ones you build. (or have built)
Everyone starts off with a production gun, and either gives up on muzzle loading, or gets a custom built.
Production guns are not authentic, nor can you get replacement parts for most of them.
Inlines are muzzle loaders, just a way for some to kill more during hunting season.
Yur first one will be a side lock, your last one will be a flintlock.

So save your time and money and build a flintlock, and save money, time and frustration.

my first muzzleloader was indeed a production gun. now, 45 years later my guns are still production guns & I certainly don't feel lackin' in any regard for not havin' a rack full of custom built. and 'tween then & now a few have been to use yer words "third world production guns" and served me very well. and I don't own or want a flinchlock gun whether factory or home built. this kinda snobbery is just one of many reasons that turn people off to muzzlers(in my most humble opinion).

[rfd]

to think that all offshore firearms are junk, or a notch above junk, is a mistake too many make. i can at the least vouch for investarms and pedersoli with regards to acquiring parts as both are readily available in the USA, and i have taken advantage of that more than a few times. both brands are the best values in both ml's and bpcr's, imho - i have, or have had, since the early 1960's, MANY custom ml's built by highly regarded gunmakers in our country ... so what, don't matter to anyone by me.

as to whether or not to start off with an inline zipper or trad sidelock, purely subjective, no one should care but the purchaser - i surely could care less what others buy. typically the freezer stocking meat hunters are just that first and foremost, and want whatever will be easiest, and that'd be a good call for an inline.

that some folks appreciate our 18th and 19th century heritage, and i don't think that should be considered a bad or elitist thing. i find that kinda thinking an enhancement to my choice of weapons, of which all (save for a .357mag revolver) are all black powder guns of those eras.

foisting yer opinions on others - that 'my way or the highway' attitude - is not a cool thing, no matter what. enjoy whatever firearms turn ya on, sez i.

[ShooterAZ]

Hmmm, I didn't realize that Spain and Italy were third world countries. Learn something new every day...

[cbashooter]

Agree with bubba.that elitist attitude is childish

Generally made by people with pride of ownership and very little time in the field shooting.
Three-quarters the time I eventually got these "purists "to come shoot at the range with their flintlocks they can't even get them to work . And when they do they can't hit anything . But boy when you put them in front of the keyboard or across the counter of gun shop Lookout .

but boy do they have fancy clothes and stuff.

[Fly]

To those that like inline so be it. But for me I myself would not even shoot Muzzle loaders
if inline were all that was. But that just me. The season was started for traditional muzzle loaders.
To me it is about sport, but the money got involved & this is what we have. JMOHOP.

Fly

[waksupi]

Agree with bubba.that elitist attitude is childish

Generally made by people with pride of ownership and very little time in the field shooting.
Three-quarters the time I eventually got these "purists "to come shoot at the range with their flintlocks they can't even get them to work . And when they do they can't hit anything . But boy when you put them in front of the keyboard or across the counter of gun shop Lookout .

but boy do they have fancy clothes and stuff.

Come over to the shoot at Marion, Montana next weekend, and tell me flint shooters can't keep up. When it starts raining, the cap locks are back in camp, and the flints are still on the line. Come over, and we can prove it.

[rodwha]

Cow's knee...

Isn't ~200 yds all you could possibly get with an inline? With modern pistol bullets it's still a rainbow trajectory.

[Squeeze]

I shoot everything. and YES, I find the elitist attitude laughable. And from most replies here, (and the usual/typical everywhere) Neither knows much about the other camp

[OnHoPr]

Na, I don't think so. Not me in MI with the Great Lakes and lakes, rivers, bogs, swamps, marshes, and whatever else to create above 90% humidity. I have looked at the humidity in ID and TX and it is very low. Just now the humidity in ID is 16%. Along with iron sights to count pts on one side or check for baldness in the brush or distance with old eyes, not. Just a couple of years ago on opening day I had to look close for 3 pts on one side. While standing near the deer about ready to do the dressing chores I seen another deer coming. At 50 yds with the scope on 5X I still don't know how many points that scraggly 7, 8, or ??? pts buck had and watched it prance off. The second deer needed to be 4 pts on one side.

200 yards is easy not even being fully loaded. Look at 44man, he shoots 200 yds with a pistola. 300 yards only needs a bit of checking and practice. There are saboted projectiles with scope that with practice let you go beyond the 300 yard mark.

[rodwha]

No doubt it's possible. The .45-70 Gov't was used out well past that, and those ballistics are easily replicated with a traditional muzzleloader (mine does rather well with the 320 grn REAL with 70 grns of 3F Olde Eynsford or Triple 7).

I don't personally know anyone, though I know it's done, that doesn't just use point blank shooting keeping the trajectory within 4-6" of zero.

IdahoRon uses a Lyman Great Plains Hunter with a paper patched Lee 440 grn bullet for elk out to about 200 yds but practices out to 300 yds in case he needs a second shot, and can do so quite well using just a peep sight.

I've been considering several rifles to afix a Malcolm style scope for field shooting. It's what floats my boat. Thankfully we all have options.

I'm at a loss for what humidity figures for Texas you are using as its typically above 80% from about mid spring to mid fall. The high humidity coupled with high temps is one thing I've always held against Texas. Right now it's unusually low.

I can certainly understand wanting a more protected ingnition system, but there are ways around it.

[Fly]

Ya Idaho Ron helped me with mine. Problem is my GPR shoots better than me. But here in eastern Okla, most shots are no more than 50 yards.

Fly

[509thsfs]

Funny, I started flintlock hunting in the Huron NF in MI. Never had a problem with a flint. Not many 200 yd shots in the Tamarack swamps I hunted in. And since I don't ID my target through a scope, but use a monocular, never felt handicapped. Actually, never had a problem in any weather in any of the states I hunted in over the last 25 yrs that I've only used a flint in. Biggest problem I had in MI was all the huge bait piles that trashed the forest and the territorialism that went with them. I REALLY miss the grouse hunting in MI though.

[dondiego]

" I REALLY miss the grouse hunting in MI though."


I am going up Thursday morning for the grouse opener. I jumped a hen and a bunch of chicks last month right by my camp. I also did a clear cut of 15 acres last October and it is already growing up nice green, tender browse that all of the animals like!

[bubba.50]

for the record, I have nothin' against flinchlocks or the people who use'em. and I know they'll perform admirably in any & all situations. they just ain't my cup-a-tea.

when I first started gettin' interested in muzzleloaders(about 50yrs ago) I thought it would be cool to have a gun you could keep runnin' with a rock ya picked up off the ground. so I started checkin' all the pieces of flint/chert found on various parts of the farm. never found any that would spark reliably so I gave up that idea.

when I finally bought me a gun a few years later cap was all that was available & they've always worked for me so it's what I'm used to & what I like. and to me, a little less fuss & bother.

[OnHoPr]

Funny, I started flintlock hunting in the Huron NF in MI. Never had a problem with a flint. Not many 200 yd shots in the Tamarack swamps I hunted in. And since I don't ID my target through a scope, but use a monocular, never felt handicapped. Actually, never had a problem in any weather in any of the states I hunted in over the last 25 yrs that I've only used a flint in. Biggest problem I had in MI was all the huge bait piles that trashed the forest and the territorialism that went with them. I REALLY miss the grouse hunting in MI though.

Stomped in the same woods. Yea, but after rifle season with the feed pile syndrome most of those deer were nocturnal, so when evening came about they would move from those tamarack swamps to the oak ridges and those feed piles. The break between the tamaracks and the hardwoods ridges have opening breaks that give good shooting and a longer wider spectrum of runways to and fro. Almost like watching a power line. Now after the Mio fire, TB, and the Gypsy moths most of the feed piles are under the yard light.

During the '80s when the anti fur campaign was going on prices dropped on pelts. So, there were no more straight runs of $7 or $8 for rats, $1.25 an inch for coon, $80 for a super blanket, etc.. Henceforth, yotes, coon, skunks, etc cycles boomed which like pat eggs for breakfast. No more coveys like the '60s, 70s, and '80s really. There are a few birds, but then PA has pats as well. Now there are more than enough yotes to munch on fawns to add to the above conditions. Plus if you drive through the Huron NF now you might find more trees in the city park. US Forest signs say they want to transform the forest back to the plains days. Government employees and bureaucracy needing more funds for micro beers & pizza and less car/deer accidents on Priuses. It looks like they are about to start planting antelope, maybe.

[dondiego]

Deer and grouse abound in the Huron National Forest more than ever as a result of the timber cutting and forest management. It never was a plain habitat. It was old growth white pine which supported very few game animals due to lack of forage, browse, and edge cover habitat.

[bedbugbilly]

bubba50 - in regards to your latest post . . . I have also been shooting BP for 50+years - probably closer to 55. Let's face it . . . in those days when we got started, there weren't really any great amount of "production" rifles available. I give Turner Kirkland a lot o credit for what he did for the muzzleloading fraternity with his Dixie Gun Works and he started peddling gun parts, etc. out of the trunk of his car. I built my first rifle when I was about 10 or 11 - fortunately, DGW did have "new" parts and if I remember correctly, their percussion lock was $10.00. The rest of the rifle was cobbled together with parts and pieces of original guns. Yes . . . there were H & A under hammers that were advertised in Popular Mechanics and some early italian C & B revolvers . . . but CVA, TC, etc. were only twinkles in the future.

I have and shoot both flint and percussion. I have built custom rifles, have owned other custom rifles, originals and "production" rifles. All have provided many hours of enjoyment over the years and done what they sere intended to do. There are "traditionalists", "hunters", "veteran shooters" and "newbies". There are a wide variety of guns available now that offer a person to get involved in BP shooting . . . and that is what it is all about.

I have been at events where I have seen those all decked out in their finest period garb, shooting custom rifles/fowlers who look down their nose at someone shooting a TC or a CVA . . . and I have also seen some of the same go out of their way to make friends with the ones shooting the CVAs, etc. and taking turns shooting each other's guns.

Flintlock, Percussion, In-line - custom or production - they all have their place. It's not about "what" a person shoots, it's about a person "shooting" and enjoying the BP sport. Without all of those people, the NMLRA and similar groups could not exist or furthther promote the hobby and help to preserve the 2nd Amendment. And . . I've often seen an individual shooting a less expensive "production" gun far outshoot someone who has a "custom" gun costing many times more.

Enjoy the hobby folks and do and shoot what pleases you and don't fall into the trap of looking and comparing guns based on value, ignition or whatever . . life's too short to not just enjoy the smell of the holy black.

[rfd]

bubba50 - in regards to your latest post . . . I have also been shooting BP for 50+years - probably closer to 55. Let's face it . . . in those days when we got started, there weren't really any great amount of "production" rifles available. I give Turner Kirkland a lot o credit for what he did for the muzzleloading fraternity with his Dixie Gun Works and he started peddling gun parts, etc. out of the trunk of his car. I built my first rifle when I was about 10 or 11 - fortunately, DGW did have "new" parts and if I remember correctly, their percussion lock was $10.00. The rest of the rifle was cobbled together with parts and pieces of original guns. Yes . . . there were H & A under hammers that were advertised in Popular Mechanics and some early italian C & B revolvers . . . but CVA, TC, etc. were only twinkles in the future.

I have and shoot both flint and percussion. I have built custom rifles, have owned other custom rifles, originals and "production" rifles. All have provided many hours of enjoyment over the years and done what they sere intended to do. There are "traditionalists", "hunters", "veteran shooters" and "newbies". There are a wide variety of guns available now that offer a person to get involved in BP shooting . . . and that is what it is all about.

I have been at events where I have seen those all decked out in their finest period garb, shooting custom rifles/fowlers who look down their nose at someone shooting a TC or a CVA . . . and I have also seen some of the same go out of their way to make friends with the ones shooting the CVAs, etc. and taking turns shooting each other's guns.

Flintlock, Percussion, In-line - custom or production - they all have their place. It's not about "what" a person shoots, it's about a person "shooting" and enjoying the BP sport. Without all of those people, the NMLRA and similar groups could not exist or furthther promote the hobby and help to preserve the 2nd Amendment. And . . I've often seen an individual shooting a less expensive "production" gun far outshoot someone who has a "custom" gun costing many times more.

Enjoy the hobby folks and do and shoot what pleases you and don't fall into the trap of looking and comparing guns based on value, ignition or whatever . . life's too short to not just enjoy the smell of the holy black.

right on, sir.

choose firearms with acquired knowledge and reason of both the firearms in question and their shooting process.

however, the bottom line will always be their enjoyment and satisfaction in the company of other like-minded shootists.

[Newtire]

There are all kinds of people shooting these days & I think the best thing to remember is that we need all the people we can get on the pro-gun side to keep the keyboard experts from taking away our rights.

If you can send a non-shooter home from their first day at the range, and get them to buy an 870 off of gunbroker on the way home, you have done your job. My son reports that this same guy now handloads. It's just a matter of time before he is drooling on muzzleloaders...

I must confess that I have been looking for flinch lock fowling piece only in 12 or 10 gauge...just looking, I think I need to find an enabler.... or a counsellor I mean . Maybe just one won't hurt?