.38 wcf brass from 44 mag

[fingers284]

Thought I would pass this along in case it helps someone else.

Up in my neck of the woods, some brass is hard to come by (thanks to U.S./Obama ITAR export regs.), especially for the older calibers. I have a 1889 Marlin that I only have 50 factory brass for so wanted a few more to have enough for a full Cowboy Shoot. Neck sizing 44-40 is the obvious route to take but they are scarce as hens teeth as well. By chance I had a hand full of .44 Mag range brass kicking around so I got the cartridge conversion bible out & calipers out for some comparison and it looked as tho they would work. Ran a few thu the sizing die and they chamber wonderfully altho the total length is a few thou short, I just load the factory & 44-40 as a batch then re-set the crimp for the shorter length and continue on.

The only bugaboo I found was the case mouth must be perfectly round when the sizing is started otherwise the mouth will wrinkle at the flat spot.

The 44 Mag are much easier to find in this country and at the pressures I use that 38-40 at they are a very viable alternative.

[reed1911]

To aid in rounding the mouths and prevent the Wrinkle/folding, use the mouth belling die, it works well.

[Mk42gunner]

I always thought the .44 Mag would be way to small at the case head.

Without looking it up, I think .45 Colt would be a closer match.

Robert

[Outpost75]

.45 Colt may be too big at the base unless chambers are very sloppy, but their thinner case wall thiickness at the mouth is ore appropriate. Years ago I tried reforming .45 Colts to .44-40 and they would not chamber in the lever-action rifle I was using, but were serviceable in an old, sloppy chambered revolver.

[fingers284]

.45 colt base is .480. 38-40 is .465. you might squeeze a colt case down at the web with a robust swaging outfit but for an easy size in a regular size die the 44 case works. The 44 case is 8 thou smaller at the base so 4 thou on each side is a minimal swell at firing. With a light load they should last thru a few loadings.

[ironhead7544]

Good info. I know where there is a 38-40 Colt New Service for sale.

I did not know the 44-40 brass was hard to find. It seems that round is popular with the Cowboy shooters.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

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The 44 Mag are much easier to find in this country and at the pressures I use that 38-40 at they are a very viable alternative.

I think this is true, but it isn't ideal. One possibility would be to cut pieces about 3/8in. long from 15/32in. K&S brass tubing (available from model-making shops or on eBay) after reaming it with a 29/64 reamer. Slip these collars over your converted .44 Magnum cases before the first firing, and I think they will chamber in most .38-40 chambers. Once the thin part expands they will be held there for evermore.

[Texas by God]

I think this is true, but it isn't ideal. One possibility would be to cut pieces about 3/8in. long from 15/32in. K&S brass tubing (available from model-making shops or on eBay) after reaming it with a 29/64 reamer. Slip these collars over your converted .44 Magnum cases before the first firing, and I think they will chamber in most .38-40 chambers. Once the thin part expands they will be held there for evermore.
That is a good solution. Necessity is truly the mother of git r done. Best, Thomas.

[rockrat]

Tried it with a 44 mag case. Too big in diameter at the neck, to chamber. Seating a .401" boolit , I get .420" neck dia. My fired cases measure .417" at the neck using 38-40 cases. 44 Mag would work, but would have to ream the neck.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That is a good solution. Necessity is truly the mother of git r done. Best, Thomas.

I think necessity's firstborn child ought to be collaboration with a few .44-40 shooters, who can hardly be very rare in Canada, and having one of them make a cross-border trip. The chances are there is no restriction on a large personal import of inert brass.

Chamber dimensions on firearms that age are liable to vary, and the .44 neck obviously works with the OP's. If it doesn't, neck reaming is the counsel of perfection, but I would first try sizing soft bullets just a shade smaller. They might expand enough to give good accuracy.

I've got some of the copper self-adhesive strip which people use to make reproduction Tiffany lampshades. They form it around the glass panels to make a frame, then soft-solder them together, covering and stiffening the copper. I bought it for my model of a copper-bottomed Victorian naval brig. Wrapping the base of the case (without solder, of course) might work, and would be easier than the tubing.

[fingers284]

I think necessity's firstborn child ought to be collaboration with a few .44-40 shooters, who can hardly be very rare in Canada, and having one of them make a cross-border trip. The chances are there is no restriction on a large personal import of inert brass.

Chamber dimensions on firearms that age are liable to vary, and the .44 neck obviously works with the OP's. If it doesn't, neck reaming is the counsel of perfection, but I would first try sizing soft bullets just a shade smaller. They might expand enough to give good accuracy.

I've got some of the copper self-adhesive strip which people use to make reproduction Tiffany lampshades. They form it around the glass panels to make a frame, then soft-solder them together, covering and stiffening the copper. I bought it for my model of a copper-bottomed Victorian naval brig. Wrapping the base of the case (without solder, of course) might work, and would be easier than the tubing.

You do not understand the(ITAR) export regs. from the States to Canada...Private individuals caught bringing any reloading supplies, brass (used or new), powder, bullets, primers from the States are subject to the same penalties for "smuggling prohibited goods" that a heroin dealer would face. Licensed commercial exporters pay an exorbitant "tax" to the U. S. govnt. to be allowed to ship to us and unless they are a major supplier it just isn't worth it.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

You do not understand the(ITAR) export regs. from the States to Canada...Private individuals caught bringing any reloading supplies, brass (used or new), powder, bullets, primers from the States are subject to the same penalties for "smuggling prohibited goods" that a heroin dealer would face. Licensed commercial exporters pay an exorbitant "tax" to the U. S. govnt. to be allowed to ship to us and unless they are a major supplier it just isn't worth it.

My goodness, that is savage! I know I can no longer get barrel blanks or rifle or pistol cases out of the USA, although nobody cares in the UK, and I've got a letter from the Import Control department to flourish in the case of barrel blanks. Oddly enough I imported some 24ga cases quite recently, as the regulation doesn't apply to shotgun components.

[victorfox]

Those who like and own guns are pretty much doomed these days... Some week ago, the guys here were complaining about the powder regulations. I thought to myself, "it won't be long before they do this in brazil"... and bingo, this weekend I got notice of a new decree (still to be sanctioned) outlawing powder purchase without that dreaded Army permit/license... I'm short of funds, but will try to raise some and buy all the powder and components while I still can.

[Mk42gunner]

I got curious about this a few days ago so I looked the various cartridges up in Donnelly's Handloader's Manual of cartridge Conversions. Under the .38-40 Winchester, he lists the 7x57R with inside neck reaming and says the 9.3x74R brass can be done the same way. Those aren't very common calibers in the US and I imagine not in Canada either, so I looked further.

Knowing the .44-40 should be able to be used, I looked there. The brass he lists as the parent case for it is that lovely commonly available .303 British. That would be my choice if I had to buy brass to convert.

Looking at other cartridges, the .444 Marlin looks like it would be a good match too.

Hope this helps someone, I could have used this info a few decades ago when I didn't buy a Colt New Service in .38WCF due to brass availability.

Robert

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I got curious about this a few days ago so I looked the various cartridges up in Donnelly's Handloader's Manual of cartridge Conversions. Under the .38-40 Winchester, he lists the 7x57R with inside neck reaming and says the 9.3x74R brass can be done the same way. Those aren't very common calibers in the US and I imagine not in Canada either, so I looked further.

Knowing the .44-40 should be able to be used, I looked there. The brass he lists as the parent case for it is that lovely commonly available .303 British. That would be my choice if I had to buy brass to convert.

Looking at other cartridges, the .444 Marlin looks like it would be a good match too.

Hope this helps someone, I could have used this info a few decades ago when I didn't buy a Colt New Service in .38WCF due to brass availability.

Robert

We have all made mistakes like that. With me it was a really beautiful and ridiculously cheap English 10ga with the 2⅞in. chamber. Not that it is any better or even lighter than a modern 12ga, especially now that shot sleeves make a long shot column, with more outside for inside, less harmful to patterning. But I do enjoy having a firearm placed on my licence and explain how come I've already got it.

The 7x57R and 9.3x74R should work, and if you are reaming or turning the necks you can make sure that you have got them exactly right. But they are both likely to be quite expensive cases to chop a bit off. The .303 is a bit undersized, though I'm sure it would work. There has been some talk recently on the board about most American .303 brass being slightly undersize, so Prvi Partisan might be better.

[EDG]

.38-40 and .44-40 are both about .470 at the head.

You could use common brass from .22-250 up to .30-06 if you know how to work around 1. The lack of a rim and 2. Can neck turn or neck ream if necessary when the brass is too thick.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Nowadays it is easy to employ rimless cases in single-ejecting revolvers, such as the .30 Carbine Blackhawk. But the .45LC and Schofield rounds were in use before anybody had thought of rimless cases, let alone their use in revolvers. So unfortunately it is likely that the chamber won't end in a sharp enough shoulder for really accurate headspacing.

[Mk42gunner]

.38-40 and .44-40 are both about .470 at the head.

You could use common brass from .22-250 up to .30-06 if you know how to work around 1. The lack of a rim and 2. Can neck turn or neck ream if necessary when the brass is too thick.

I would not want to heat a case head enough to melt solder, but about ten years ago I was doing some plumbing repair and the store I was in had some sort of snake oil, I mean glue, that was supposed to join copper pipes better than soldering. Reading the package made it seem like it would work, but having been a plumber in my youth I soldered the few joints I needed to make.

I haven't seen the wonder stuff lately, but I haven't really been in the plumbing section either. If it worked on copper pipes, it might work to attach a rim to cartridge brass. Who knows??? If I see any and I think of it, I'll try it out.

Robert

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I would not want to heat a case head enough to melt solder, but about ten years ago I was doing some plumbing repair and the store I was in had some sort of snake oil, I mean glue, that was supposed to join copper pipes better than soldering. Reading the package made it seem like it would work, but having been a plumber in my youth I soldered the few joints I needed to make.

I haven't seen the wonder stuff lately, but I haven't really been in the plumbing section either. If it worked on copper pipes, it might work to attach a rim to cartridge brass. Who knows??? If I see any and I think of it, I'll try it out.

Robert

Well maybe, but copper pipes are subject to expansion and contraction, but not to impact. A case can get hotter than tapwater too, expecially if it is left in a hot chamber for a while. The same sort of glue doesn't necessarily work well for both. John J. Donnelly, in his "Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions", does say there is a low melting-point solder which can attach case-heads to tubing, but I think the case-heads ought to be rather long ones, and he considers this suitable only for low-pressure cases where the priority is to get the firearm back to life at all. I wouldn't want to do this, but a rim coming off is more an inconvenience than a danger.

Several decades ago I saw an article in "American Rifleman" or "Guns and Ammo" about swaging a rim onto a case. The rimless "rim" is lathe-turned away, and the stub of brass very slightly reverse-tapered. A brass collar is then placed over it, and squeezed with a ring die which has a rounded edge, so that the collar tightly embraces that reverse taper. Very little load-bearing brass has to be removed. I think this would work for medium pressure rounds, and only really hot ones need to be avoided.

Finally here is a drawing I made when considering the possibilities of frontal ignition. A rim on a steel collar could be threaded on. It is a lot of work, which could be somewhat eased by a Morse taper lathe mandrel with a "chamber" to hold the cases, and a threading tap and die if you can find one the right diameter and of fine enough pitch. If someone wanted to do this as a commercial venture, it would pay to have the tap and die made, or pay a screw machine firm to make a large batch of the rimmed collars.

176737

[fingers284]

Tried it with a 44 mag case. Too big in diameter at the neck, to chamber. Seating a .401" boolit , I get .420" neck dia. My fired cases measure .417" at the neck using 38-40 cases. 44 Mag would work, but would have to ream the neck.

The first batch I did with the handful of 44 mag brass chambered in my marlin However, with a second batch of brass I received from a friend I had 4 out of 40 that wouldn't allow the neck to enter the chamber. Brass was mixed WW and Rem, all the WW and most of the Rem chambered, the 4 that didn't were Rem.

[EDG]

A product that I worked on use a flat washer to retain a rolled thread screw. Basically the tooling we made was used to form the inner .150 ring around the hole in the #4 washer into a cone which stretched the hole open larger. The washer was dropped over the screw threads. The screw being a rolled thread type was larger in diameter over the thread than the neck between the flat head and the thread. The conical dimple in the washer was then flattened and closed it behind the threads providing a retainer.
In a similar fashion a stainless or brass washer could be used to lock into the extractor groove. It might not be strong enough for pulling a sized case out of a die but it would be strong enough for extraction.