Need help picking muzzleloader

[glockky]

I have a newer inline Thompson center endeavor muzzleloader but really want to pick up a good side lock traditional style muzzleloader.

I have very little knowledge about these rifles. I was hoping to get some recommendations on which one to buy.

I like the looks of a hawken but I'm not sure if there's something better. I have read a lot of people replace the barrel with a green mountain barrel.

thanks in advance

[mooman76]

Are you wanting a flintlock or a percussion? Big difference there and how much you wanting to spend is another factor. With a percussion you can get by with a cheaper gun but a cheap flintlock can be disappointing, especially to a newcomer. Takes a little more to learn on what to do when you have problems getting it to fire. Most guns these days are built pretty good compared to years back when the first started making repos. Hawken's are pretty good and hard to beat. Mostly after that it's just according to what style you want and allot of them are styled after the Hawken. You also might want to consider a good used one for starting out.

[rodwha]

Another question is the use. Hunting or targets? If hunting would you still hunt or stalk? Caliber preferences?

[ShooterAZ]

Lyman Great Plains or Deerstalker.

[Omnivore]

For a percussion hunting rifle, it's hard to beat the deal you get with the Lyman Trade Rifle. For a fairly good representation of a Hawken without spending a whole lot, the Lyman Great Plains Rifle has had a good reputation for a long time.

I have a Lyman Deerstalker which, with a 24" barrel is a shorty, and it's a sort of Hawken-esque design if you don't look too close. My son and I have taken a lot of deer with it using patched round ball. Its 48" twist is also good for most conicals up to the high three hundreds weight range. Round ball will do you for any deer though, up to 100 yards or a little more and I'd take an elk with it at closer range. I thought the single trigger wasn't too good, and so I spent some time with it (including replacing the tumbler after I messed it up) to get a nice trigger. I eventually added a patch box to it also, which I highly recommend. You don't want to load them up with giant charges under heavy bullets, as the stocks aren't as strong as a real, proper Hawken (ask me how I know).

The Pedersoli Rocky Mountain and Missouri River Hawkens are the best of the production Hawkens, and they are built just like the originals (stronger, but more expensive - the Hawken design with an integral hooked patent breech snail and the long tang mated via two tang bolts with a long trigger plate looks simple, but actually building one and doing it right gets more complicated than other designs). You'll pay a thousand dollars for one of those. The difference between the two models is in the rifling twist rate, depending on whether you're more interested in shooting patched ball or heavy conicals.

Same goes for the Lyman Great Plains verses the Great Plains Hunter. The "Rifle" has a slow, ball twist and the "Hunter" has a fast twist for heavy bullets.

The Italian barrels can shoot very well. It's usually only a matter of finding the load it likes best.

There are tons of choices, but you can't really go wrong with any of the above. Mostly it comes down to what you like.

Track of the Wolf always has a lot of hand built long guns for sale, percussion and flinter, rifled and smooth bore, and a good one will run about two thousand and up. I'd say spend some time there. Read the detailed descriptions and look at the photos. Go back a while later and see what else has come up. You'll soon get a good idea of what a traditional long gun is and what sorts of features are available (architectural and otherwise) and why they exist, and so on.

[glockky]

I am wanting something mainly to just punch paper and shoot steel with. I prefer shorter barreled rifles. I want a percussion fired not into flintlocks.

Also not looking to break the bank. Just wanting to spend a couple hundred dollars for a range toy. If I end up really enjoying it I may move on to something better later.

[mooman76]

For a couple hundred bucks you'll need to go used. Even the cheaper MLs start at around $400. Maybe less on sale. Usually you can pick up a good used one for around $200 or less in good shape. You will probably want a .50. Prices do vary allot though according to the area. I believe back east they are more plentiful thus cheaper. I rarely find a used one around here. People just aren't into them here that much but they do pop up occasionally in fact one was for sale here a week ago but I passed even though it was a good deal. I already own at least a DZ of them.

I second the Lyman GPR. I have never shot one but every time someone like you asks what do get, the name pops up. Like I said though, any one(Lyman, Traditions, T/C ect) in good shape used should do you well and they usually shoot better than you are capable of. The reason I stated a 50 is because they are the most common, thus probably cheaper. You don't need something heavier for what you want to do. If you get much smaller like 36 or 32 they may not do as well against steel plus they are hard to find these days and cost more but I wouldn't pass up a good deal just because it's not a 50.

[pietro]

I am wanting something mainly to just punch paper and shoot steel with. I prefer shorter barreled rifles.




Short barrels in muzzleloaders are not like short-barreled metallic cartridge rifles, as BP & the BP substitutes require a longer barrel length to burn all the powder, efficiently & accurately.

A .32 or .36 cal rifle with a 27" (or so) barrel should be light & relatively recoil-free - which can equate to a good target rifle (but not as accurate as one with a thicker barrel.

These are T/C Seneca's ( a .36 & a .45), Hawken look-alikes with shorter (27" ILO 28"),thinner (13/16" ILO 15/16" or 1") barrels, slimmer stocks & down-sized locks.


https://s26.postimg.io/5ucgxxrzt/DSCN2036.jpg

[Good Cheer]

Go used. Look for a Renegade with a rusty bore and don't spend much.
Then get it rebored.
A .50 can become a .52 to around .60 or so. Depends on how deep the screw holes are that hold the rear sight and the rib under the barrel.
You can have it made smooth bore or rifled. You can have the barrel relined. You can just replace it all together. Lots of options and easy to do.


There's all kinds of stuff you can do besides the goofy off the shelf models that are primarily intended to sell towards deer hunting. For examples:

When I wanted to try out a .40 bore for long boolits, I shopped around and found a used left hand Great Plains Rifle. And had someone use all the hardware in replacing the barrel.
Flintlock .62 TC Hawken, got a used .62 smooth bore barrel and sent it off for rifling.
Light weight smooth bore, Traditions Deerhunter with a wood stock and a longer octagonal to round replacement barrel.

Those will all knock a deer down but they have other uses. Mostly a lot of fun.

[glockky]

I'm not sure if they are much count or not but a guy at work has a like new CVA bobcat he said he would take $50 for. Definitely not very traditional with the synthetic stock but I have read they are decent rifles.
I have lots of center fire guns and most likely if I end up liking the percussion muzzleloader a nice one will be purchased later.
Im only 31 but the older I get the more I lean toward traditional firearms.

[mooman76]

$50. I'd jump on that. Like you said not all that traditional but they were good guns if he took care of it. You could easily get more than double if not triple that by selling the parts.

[ShooterAZ]

Midway has the Deerstalker on sale right now $379. Sending the link.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1064293698/lyman-deerstalker-muzzleloading-rifle-percussion-wood-stock-1-in-48-twist-24-barrel

[rfd]

i think you'd best be served by an investarms hawken style, as sold by lyman or dixie gun works or cabelas, and probably other rebranding vendors. i've had trad sidelocks by cva, traditions and pedersoli, and hand's down the investarms are the better buy ... at least for me, maybe you too.

whatever you get, the hawken halfstock's hooked patent barrel breech will allow easy barrel removal for super easy cleaning, besides using the tube-in-the-nipple trick.

all that said, the next decision is single or double set trigger. if single, the lyman trade rifle or deerstalker(1:48 twist, good for ball or maxi, REAL, etc) ... if double, the lyman great plains rifle (1:60 for ball) or hunter (1:32 for maxi, REAL, etc). i vastly prefer the added accuracy of a double set trigger, they're on all my rifles.

as to caliber, if yer a big critter hunter get the .54, if not you'll be well served by the .50 caliber. i prefer the .50, and with patched round ball it can pack a punch on deer, hogs, speed goats, etc.

another investarms benefit is that you can remove its breech plug, if ever need be, without any real hassles - the other brands will be near to full on impossible to pull off. then again, why would you ever wanna take off a breech plug? :)

good luck and do enjoy.

about trad muzzleloaders (http://traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.org/tradml/index.html)

my great plains .50 flinter "hawken" (are you daft? there were no half stock hawken flinters! LOL!) that i built up from a kit, love this rifle ...

http://i.imgur.com/cYxS3fl.jpg

[hornady308]

I have lots of traditional muzzle loaders, and recommend the Lyman Great Plains Rifle for anyone who wants a well made rifle that will easily shoot patched round balls. The GPR has a barrel designed to shoot patched balls without having to swab the barrel between shots. This makes target shooting much more enjoyable. If you look around you should be able to find a good used GPR for around $350.

[Fly]

I bet if you looked around some pawn shops that sell guns, you could find a good T/C for around $200 if you dickered.

T/C made some great Hawkins type muzzle loaders.

Fly

[glockky]

Fly I am gonna go look around today actually. I'll take some pics if I come up with one. They are usually plentiful at our pawn shops if you can just find one that doesn't have a sewer pipe for a barrel.

[rfd]

... The GPR has a barrel designed to shoot patched balls without having to swab the barrel between shots. ...

interesting statement. what is it about the GPR that makes this possible as compared to other patched ball slow twist rifled barrels?

[OverMax]

I have read a lot of people replace the barrel with a green mountain barrel.

Use too. Drop-in replacement barrels are no longer available from G/M.

Some T/C owners did replace their OEM octagon barrel in wanting a specific twist-rate to accommodate different more up-dated modern projectiles. (Although having a traditional firearm not everyone is pleased with their shooting patched ball or Maxi ball only.) So some choose to retrofit their rifle into something I call >Hybrid. (traditional in looks. Having performance near a inlines.) I toyed with the idea of doing the same to my rifle. But being old school I kind'a made a full circle back to being a full time Traditionalist shooter after given some thought to why? >I need a long distance shooter. I own the wood-land I hunt. Easy to re-positioning my deer stand to accommodate my style of shooting. 100 yard stretch for my P/balls travel is fine & dandy sufficient. Today that 221.00 ($) stainless quick-twist G/M octagon I bought years ago sits in the safe gaining value.

Buy a Lyman. There a well made Traditional looking rifle.

[bubba.50]

that 50 buck Bobcat would give ya somethin' to shoot while ya learn/get used to the differences 'tween inlines & sidelocks. as stated, a good used T/C Hawken or Renegade as well as numerous variations of Cabelas/Lyman/Investarms guns can be had for around $200.00 or so. for a shorter barrel T/C White Mountain Carbines or Pennsylvania Hunter Carbines would work & have recoil pads instead of curved metal buttplates. also, Lyman/Cabelas/Investarms guns can sometimes be found in what they call "Hawken Hunter" or "Hawken Sporter" or some such that have checkered walnut stocks, a bit shorter barrel, and a recoil pad.

[hornady308]

interesting statement. what is it about the GPR that makes this possible as compared to other patched ball slow twist rifled barrels?

Patched round ball barrels usually have deeply cut rifling that makes them much easier to load many times without having to clean between shots because the burned powder has somewhere to go. I like TC rifles, but have replaced the original barrels with Green Mtn round ball barrels for ease of target shooting. If using Maxi balls, then you might as well stay with the original TC barrel. Standard TC barrels have shallow rifling that does not handle powder residue well, so it builds up quickly and makes successive loading much harder. You could also look for one of the very earliest CVA Mountain Rifles. They are marked made in USA and have slow twist, deeply cut barrels for round balls. I have one and it is much more accurate than I would have expected.

[Squeeze]

Where do you hunt, what style, and what is the typical ranges your looking for? (EX: do you trek style, where lightweight is a priority, do you field hunt in a blind, where weight is not as much an issue as longer range.) or a mixture. THAT can alter many decisions.

edit: missed your second post on range fun, but still, cheap 50 yard fun, or would you like to hit steel at long range?

[glockky]

Struck out today at 2 pawn shops. Gotta sow some winter wheat cover crops tomorrow. Hopefully I'll be able to check 4 or 5 more Thursday.

[glockky]

I hunt from a tree stand and very seldom get a shot over 65 yards. Most of the steel on my range is 60-120yds.

[Omnivore]

Round ball will work fine at those distances.

[rfd]

Patched round ball barrels usually have deeply cut rifling that makes them much easier to load many times without having to clean between shots because the burned powder has somewhere to go. I like TC rifles, but have replaced the original barrels with Green Mtn round ball barrels for ease of target shooting. If using Maxi balls, then you might as well stay with the original TC barrel. Standard TC barrels have shallow rifling that does not handle powder residue well, so it builds up quickly and makes successive loading much harder. You could also look for one of the very earliest CVA Mountain Rifles. They are marked made in USA and have slow twist, deeply cut barrels for round balls. I have one and it is much more accurate than I would have expected.

ime, with over 50 years of messing with ml's, i've never seen that rifling depth makes any real world difference in loading without fouling control between shots, whether the rifling is .004" or .010". this is just from my vantage point, and others surely can have other results, but there's a lot of subjectivity with components and load process. ya might get in a few more un-wiped shots with a deeper .010" rifling, but not much more if any at all. ime, what does matter is the relationship 'tween ball diameter and compressed patch thickness, as well as patch material quality (yarn count) and the other biggie, the patch lube. with my smoothie, i can get dozens of patched ball shots off without fouling control between by employing what i just typed about the load, and accuracy is better than my old eyesight.

[Col4570]

On the subject of wiping between shots for a Ball rifle.I have taken to slightly dampening my patches with Windscreen wash to eliminate the problems arising from wiping.

[rfd]

On the subject of wiping between shots for a Ball rifle.I have taken to slightly dampening my patches with Windscreen wash to eliminate the problems arising from wiping.

have you tried 10% water soluble oil (ballistol, etc) and distilled water for fouling control wiping? i think straight up water is best, but it doesn't hurt to spike it with the kinder oil than window washer ammonia.

[Lead Fred]

Ballistol and all other petroleum products make sludge in the barrel when mixed with burnt black powder.

There is NO reason for any cleaning between shots, its a waste of time.
UNLESS you are using the wrong products in your bore.

Season your bore with hot soapy water. Then use only Thompson Center 1000+ products.
When we build muzzleloaders, we season the the brand new barrels, then use the TC 1000+ bore butter, and No. 13 cleaner to soak your patches in.

Ive done over 75 shots in one trail walk, and the first and last shot the same.
My 45 cal round ball does 2033fps out the 42 inch swamped Rice barrel. One after another.

[rfd]

Ballistol and all other petroleum products make sludge in the barrel when mixed with burnt black powder.

There is NO reason for any cleaning between shots, its a waste of time.
UNLESS you are using the wrong products in your bore.

Season your bore with hot soapy water. Then use only Thompson Center 1000+ products.
When we build muzzleloaders, we season the the brand new barrels, then use the TC 1000+ bore butter, and No. 13 cleaner to soak your patches in.

Ive done over 75 shots in one trail walk, and the first and last shot the same.
My 45 cal round ball does 2033fps out the 42 inch swamped Rice barrel. One after another.

there are so many good personal ways to skin that muzzleloader cat. enjoy whatever works best for you. :)

[pietro]

Season your bore with hot soapy water. Then use only Thompson Center 1000+ products.

When we build muzzleloaders, we season the the brand new barrels, then use the TC 1000+ bore butter, and No. 13 cleaner to soak your patches in.

Ive done over 75 shots in one trail walk, and the first and last shot the same.





+1

BoreButter 1000+ & #13 bore cleaner has been working successfully for me ever since BoreButter was 1st introduced, IDK how many years ago (30 ?)

Those products were a blessing, taking the work out of cleaning chores.

Over all those years, I've never had rusting or accuracy issues in any of the 20-some odd frontstuffers I shot/hunted with.

.

[glockky]

Well I'm still looking. Today I found a TC new englander that's in excellent shape. Only problem was they wanted $270 for it which I though was a little steep. I also wanted to do some reading up on the new englander.

[idahoron]

I am all about the hunt and long range accuracy. I would pick on that idea alone. I have Hot Rod Renegades and Hot Rod Hawkens. I like shooting Big paper patched bullets. FOr a factory New rifle, the two I like are the Lyman Great Plains Hunter with the peep and globe sight installed. The other would be the Pedersoldi Missouri River Hawken. Both are fast twist to stabilize big bullets. The lyman would have the edge for factory installed quality sights. The Missouri rifle would get the points for a FAST twist. The Missouri would need a upgrade in sights. That would cost about another 140 dollars on top of a pricey rifle.
If I were getting the rifle I probably get,,, Man I that would be hard. I would probably get the Missouri and up grade the sights.

[glockky]

Can anyone tell me about the TC new englander. Is $270 too steep?

[mooman76]

Just an opinion but P guns vary quite abit in price from one area to the next according to availability. You don't see them much here because people here aren't into them for the most part so on the rare chance you see them, they are pricey. I don't know about the gun itself as far as how it is set up, barrel twist and such but I have never heard anything bad about them. If in excellent shape like you say $270 is certainly not a bad price so you won't be getting taken and seems fair to me. You could try offering less. Worst case is they say no and you pay the full price.

[fastdadio]

Has Glockky went and snatched up that $50.00 dollah Bobcat yet? Go get it and git shootin boy!

[glockky]

He backed out on me. Things seemed kinda shady so I did not press the issue.
i called several pawn shops Thursday and they had several bobcats for $70-100

[mooman76]

I'd take a &70-100 Bobcat. Make a good starter gun.

[bubba.50]

if it was in N-I-B condition & had a better than nice piece of walnut for the stock I might be tempted to give $270.00 for a New Englander. otherwise dependin' on condition I'd give between 100 to 200 for it.

my opinion & yer welcome to it. luck & have a good'en, bubba.

[glockky]

Well I finally have a muzzleloader headed my way actually 2. A member here contacted me with a few he was planning to put in the S&S section. I couldn't make up my mind between the .54 renegade or the .50 hawken so I just purchased both.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

If people paid me for slapping each person I hear saying " Seasoning my bore" I'd probably have a few thousand bucks in my pocket!

[bubba.50]

If people paid me for slapping each person I hear saying " Seasoning my bore" I'd probably have a few thousand bucks in my pocket!


I've seen this same self-contradictin' argument hashed out 1000 times over on the muzzleloading forum. I'll break down why it's contradictory in three steps for the slow among ya.

first, all the keyboard commandoes parrot the common refrain "ya don't season muzzleloader barrels 'cause they're steel not iron".

second, these same "experts" parrot another common bit of wisdom "ya need to buy the Dutch Schoultz system. it'll greatly increase yer knowledge along with makin' ya a supremely accurate shooter".

third, here comes the contradiction, I have read the entire 40 plus pages of ol' Dutch's system and at least 1/2 dozen times and at considerable length in those 40+++ pages he very firmly states "you'll never achieve yer full potential with this or any other system IF YOU DON'T PROPERLY SEASON YOUR BARREL".

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

I bought it as well but didn't really feel it was helpful for my personal shooting preference. That dry lube system was awful hard to reload on a fouled bore. It is however a good read for a new shooter that is getting into the sport and to help give them an idea how important consistent patch lubrication is.

[Maven]

While I didn't care for Dutch Schoultz' dry lube idea at all, his suggestions about accuracy worked very well for me. About the outmoded idea of bore seasoning, take a look at this: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/251958/

[rfd]

While I didn't care for Dutch Schoultz' dry lube idea at all, his suggestions about accuracy worked very well for me. About the outmoded idea of bore seasoning, take a look at this: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/251958/

no access to that link.

[rodwha]

You have to be a member to read posts there...

This is the post mentioned:


Why We Don't Season Barrels Anymore
by
Paul H. Vallandigham
Periodically, some new shooter comes on the forum claiming that he needs to "SEASON" his barrel.
Today's modern barrels are made of STEEL, an alloy of iron and other metals, which produces a much harder metal. Muzzleloading barrels are made either of a soft alloy with lead in it to make it easy on the cutters (12L14), or harder steels, like 440 alloy steel, which withstands high pressures, but is harder on tool bits. They are not made of the iron that was used in the 18th century.
We don't season Steel, because its next to impossible to do (those pores in steel are filled with trace elements, so there is no room to allow oils or other substances to be burned into the pores), and its Not necessary for good accuracy, or to prevent rust. Simply running an oiled, or greased cleaning patch down the barrel AFTER seating a PRB on the powder charge, will protect the front portion of the bore from rusting.
Today, the most common IRON product to be found in a home is the Frying pan, or "Skillet" used to cook. Even those are becoming more rare- often only seen in camping equipment, rather than used in the home kitchen. Skillets are made of CAST IRON, which, unlike Wrought iron, have large PORES in the surface.
We SEASON cast iron skillets (but not steel, aluminum, or Teflon coated skillets) to fill the pores of the steel to prevent rusting (RUST adds a terrible taste to food), and to make a very smooth slick surface to use to cook certain foods, like Eggs.
To Season a Frying pan, or skillet, you first rub the surfaces of the skillet with shortening, or lard, or fat. Coat it liberally, so that you don't miss a spot. The place the greased skillet in an oven heated to 500 degrees!
Leave the skillet in the oven at that high temperature for at least an hour. Then turn off the oven. When the oven and the skillet cool to room temperature, inspect the skillet. If there are spots of plain steel showing, or if the entire surface of the skillet is Not Black and Smooth, and slick to the touch, repeat the process, until it becomes that smooth, black Greasy feeling surface (a dry grease- not gooey). With a properly seasoned frying pan/skillet, you can fry eggs on them, and the eggs won't stick to the pan.
In the 18th century, when barrels were forged from soft iron, the barrels were seasoned, often by the gunmaker. He would coat the rifling with a thick layer of fat, then heat the barrel up in his forge, and burn out the fat. What was left in the open pores of the iron bore was the "Seasoning", that prevented rusting inside the barrel.
I am sure that somewhere, in this country, someone is forging IRON barrels. The Possibility exists then, that a shooter could run into a modern made gun, made with a true Iron barrel. I can't imagine the cost of such a gun, considering the labor involved in making such a barrel using the old forging methods, and I would not fire such a gun, since there are cheaper, safer barreled guns available for shooting and hunting.
With Steel Barrels, any attempt at "seasoning" the barrel will only result in frustration, and in a clogged bore, that eventually looks like a smoothbore. The Grooves of the rifling fill up with charred residue, to the point that there appear to be NO more grooves.
This very thing has been observed these past 30 years, in Thompson/Center rifles, because that company's early loading manual spoke about just adding more "Wonderlube" to the barrel if a ball or bullet began to stick in the barrel because the barrel was not cleaned, or swabbed between shots. A lot of people, including members of this forum have made (and probably will continue to make) a lot of money buying up OLD T/C rifles, with the barrels "Shot out", for bottom prices. (The current T/C manual no longer carries that advice, I am told).
The gun barrels are taken out of the stocks, given a good soak for several days with soap and water, then scrubbed well with a bore brush to remove all the crud accumulated in the grooves of those barrels. It comes out in CHUNKS! Typically, when the barrels are CLEANED, they look as good as new, and shoot PRBs just fine. The guns are then sold for a nice profit.
[Plunge a piece of soft wire coat hanger, heated red hot, into a container of oil - any oil. The wire will come out with a smooth, Shiny Black coat on the surface, that is quite durable. It's the closest you can come with modern metals to see what a seasoned barrel WOULD look like].
Years ago, now, I offered to try to help a small local gunsmith, who had just opened up a New shop, get more business into his store, by getting the members of my local gun club to come out, on an Advertised Saturday, to offer to inspect and CLEAN and oil the guns of hunters intending to hunt in the up-coming seasons, for a nominal charge. He looked at me IN HORROR! He told me that if people actually cleaned, inspected, and oiled their guns, he would be OUT of BUSINESS!
He told me that a substantial part of his pre-hunting season business profit came from customers who brought their guns to him to be cleaned and oiled for the next season, having done nothing to them since the last one!
I was raised by a father who Insisted that our guns be cleaned as soon as we got home, and before we did anything else. He inspected our work, initially, and was as hard as any drill sergeant ever heard in Boot Camp.
I can't even imagine taking a dirty gun to a gunsmith, unless it was jammed, and I could not get the gun apart to clean it first. (That's not going to happen with any MLer I have). I would be embarrassed to take a dirty gun to my gunsmith. I obviously was raised in a different world.
If I had to give a truly SHORT answer to WHY we don't Season MLing barrels, It would be, that "we clean our steel barrels, so seasoning is never necessary (nor possible)". Cleanliness is next to Godliness, so goes the old Proverb. The context was different, but the wisdom is still sound.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

as well as this.
https://user.xmission.com/~drudy/hist_text-arch5/msg00973.html

[fastdadio]

If people paid me for slapping each person I hear saying " Seasoning my bore" I'd probably have a few thousand bucks in my pocket!

I season my bore every time take it out. In these parts we call it a 'fouler'. Some times I just call it hunting season.
:kidding:

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

LOL

I season them too.. With black powder fouling!

[glockky]

Just wanted to think everyone for the help. Here's my 54cal renegade and 50cal hawken that came in the mail today.177273
177274
177275
177276

[fastdadio]

Very nice. What are the twist rates and what loads are you going to try first?