Calvary pistol training

[Thumbcocker]

Thinking about Elmer's comments about how a salty trooper could keep things hot for enemy horsemen out to 200 yards or so got me to thinking; how much pistol training did an Indian war era trooper get with this Schofield or Colt? How often did they practice? I have read that at various times during the Indian wars the government was very stingy with appropriations. So was there ammo to practice with?

[shoot-n-lead]

I think you mean cavalry.

[WebMonkey]

One saves the day.
One saves the world.
:)

[Scharfschuetze]

Most cavalrymen in the 19th century received very little marksmanship training. Books such as "40 Miles a Day on Beans and Hay" describe the situation well. Most frontier army units were composed of poorly trained inductees and immigrants and suffered a very high desertion rate.

The military woke up to firearms training after the Sioux Indian campaign of 1876 where Brevet General Custer lost about half of his command at the Little Big Horn.

Colonel Miles (The follow up commander of the campaign) was prescient enough that when he became General of the Army following the Indian Wars he instituted marksmanship training as a matter of doctrine. While military marksmanship training has waxed and waned over the years, it is generally adequate for the purpose. True marksmen in the Army still think that the training the average recruit receives is still marginal though.

A soldier's MOS will generally determine the amount of sustainment training he receives once he gets to his unit. SOF units receive the highest ammo allotments while service and support units are now down to one qualification annually, at least at the time of my retirement.

By the way, the National Rifle Association was founded by former Civil War officers who saw how inept the average Union soldier was with a firearm during that fracas. The goal of the association at its inception was to promote rifle practice to address the issue of poor marksmanship.

In addition, today's charter for the CMP (formerly the DCM) is to do the same and maintain a body of marksmen within the citizenry in case of need due to war.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I was told that in each unit there were marksmen that distinguished themselves at the range, in battle they made shots that saved lives. Seldom were these qualities learned after signing up for service, they were the guys that grew up shooting.

I'be wondered about this question too and have asked around for old Army marksmanship training manuals, not even Dave Scovill could point me in the right direction. I'm going to Washington DC this May, perhaps I could check with the Library of Congress.

[Scharfschuetze]

No need to do that. You can download many of the Army marksmanship manuals from the Army Marksmanship unit's web site.

The NRA may still have a selection of books on marksmanship at their on-line store.

There is a recent thread on marksmanship manuals at this site. Here's the link:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?314277-Marksmanship-Book-Recommendations

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Very good, thank you!

[Multigunner]

You should run a search on the Internet Archive site. They have many free downloads of very old military manuals of all sorts.

I lost all my saved files of these when my last PC tower got fried by a lightning strike. I do remember one manual with instructions on the use of the 1911 pistol by Cavalry.


The Battle of the Little bighorn was mentioned. One officer there distinguished himself by his amazing accuracy with his sidearm.
I forget the officer's name but remember he was a medical officer and surgeon.
He apparently killed an Indian attacker with every shot and almost escaped the carnage, making a break for it when all about him had been killed. Indian survivors stated that out of respect for his prowess as a warrior they chose not to mutilate his body as they did almost all the dead troopers. They did cut off his gun hand so they wouldn't face his wrath in the next world.

Colt C&B Dragoon and Calvary pistols were normally sighted to hit dead on at 125 yards aiming low at closer ranges. Before the civil war the tactic was to begin firing at some distance, discharging all pistol rounds then drawing the saber for the melee'. John Mosby put an end to that when he instructed his men to carry extra pistols and use pistols at close quarters rather than the sword. Most left their swords behind and carried up to six handguns, most handguns they used were Remington revolvers captured from Federal cavalry.

[Bigslug]

Logistics would have been a problem for ongoing training with the horse soldiers. Even during the Civil War in the East with lots of railway support, there wasn't a great deal of marksmanship training going on in the big army - to the point that the long range advantage of the Minie bullet was seldom utilized because the average boot didn't have a clue as to what the parabolic trajectory of the slow moving lump of lead looked like. Frontier outposts a long way from any kind of railhead, and all of the bullets weighed anywhere from 250 to 500 grains. I think a case of .50-70 weighed about 120 pounds. Even if Uncle Sam was lavish with supply budgets (which he wasn't), simply getting ammo to the place where training would best occur would have been a challenge. Once there, I can certainly see how an attitude of "save it for the Sioux" would prevail.

[KCSO]

Get an Army of Marksman by Douglas McChristian. It is all about military firearms training from the Civil War to the 1890's. Targets drill ammo ect. Basicly until after the Indian Wars if a Trooper got to shoot 20 rounds every other month he was lucky and some shot once a year!

[Thumbcocker]

My Great Great Grandfather immigrated from Germany in the 1870's and joined the army to get his citizenship at the end of his hitch. I read part of his journal about the ship crossing. There were also a few entries about growing a garden at his post. (The journal had been translated) He had a leg up because he spoke English. Family lore has it that he campaigned in Utah and elsewhere but I have no idea what unit he served in . I do have what is supposed to be his saber although I am told it is a Prussian pattern so I don't know if he was issued it or it is something he brought over with him.

[Blackwater]

I hope this tidbit of "thread drift" will be pardoned, but FWIW, a life long buddy's Dad originally joined the cavalry when he entered the Army. When his son asked "Why the cavalry, Dad? Wasn't the cavalry out of style back then?" His Dad just smiles a deadpan smile, and asked him back, "Well, would you rather walk or ride?"

Another funny (now) experience he had was in training, his unit was in training to fire at targets on the right and left at a gallop. They were supposed to fire on one side, then lift the gun up high and over to the other side and fire as they passed that target. One hapless fellow who really wasn't much of a horseman tried it, and instead of lifting the .45, with its SA trigger pull, up and over to the other side, he just brought it straight across on a level, and his horse came down just as the pistol reached center, causing him to naturally contract his muscles, which caused him to pull the trigger, hitting his horse in the back of the head and killing it instantly. Naturally, he had a hard landing and was thoroughly humiliated. His Dad said the hapless guy was STILL having his paycheck docked for paying off that horse when he mustered out!

Imagine! Shooting your own horse right out from under you! This is why SA's are so popular among horsemen, even today! They won't go off unless and until you cock them, and that's pretty hard to do, even among Army inductees! They probably should have kept some of those old Colt SA's for the cavalry, but most adapted well to the 1911, even on horseback, but it took TRAINING to get them to respect the potential. There's no telling how many guys that hapless horse-shooter helped respect the .45. Just thought some would appreciate the humor in this. Horses introduce an element into warfare that is rather unique, and that call for a rather peculiar order of arms. It ain't child's play riding horses and shooting!

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Custer shot his mount in the same manner. On foot he was awol by the time he got back. It was his wife's horse, her favourite horse. The grip safety on the 1911 was mandated by the Army. The idea was the grip safety would reduce the risk of AD's while decocking. I prefer the SAA on foot but especially on horseback.

[Traffer]

You beat me to it. Jesus could have called in the cavalry whey he was on the cross on Calvary.

I think you mean cavalry.

[Piedmont]

T. E. Lawrence, of WW I fame, shot his camel in the back of the head also.

[Groo]

Groo here
Many believe the pistol to be a short range tool but with the 7 1/2 inch P model colt sighted in at 125 yds there are questions.
In fact , the revolver was used out to such ranges, and expected to be!.
The solder was trained [told] to use a belt buckle hold, unlike our center of mass.
With pistol or rifle having a rainbow like arc to its shots the bullet could be as much as 12in high and still hit the target.
In some historical accounts the officer told his troops " Aim low or you will shoot over their heads".
Some people have noted that their single actions shot high at 25 yds [ like 8 to 12 in] and something was wrong, not really , the shooter was not shooting correctly!!!!

[Thumbcocker]

John Taffin did some tests with period .45's and BP ammo and pretty much confirmed what Elmer had written.

[44man]

Best shooters were hunters that knew the guns. Revolvers indeed could be shot far but most could not do it. Accuracy in the old days did not exist, just lay down lead. Smooth bores.
I just read the paper and the Army is having fits to get guys to shoot. Never had a gun in their hands before joining. Need a billion shots sprayed from a toy gun instead of one shot-one kill. I will always believe in one shot one kill with the M1 over the sad .22.
When I joined I was a varmint hunter and nobody out shot me on the KD range with the M1. I had an expert medal for everything the army had. Won the base KD trophy.
Now they get recruits that never pulled a trigger.
I learned training starts with the lowest of the low and the stupid But we have very smart today but many never shot. You can use a satellite or drone but you need to shoot a gun too.
Why did they give our troops a nine over the .45? They can't make either hit.
Shoot from a running horse and hit, TV contract in the cards.
Hunters beat the Brits, Take the general out. Stupid line of fodder like WW1 out of the trenches. Face a Maxim.
Korea had hoards of fodder to over run a position.
To scare at 200 yards with a .45 Colt is funny from a horse soldier. To quote Taffin even funnier.

[Thumbcocker]

IIRC Elmer was talking about dismounted troopers. Did some 200 yard shooting today with a Bisley .44 from seated backrest. Bad guy would have been in trouble; the detergent bottle I was shooting at less so but I still eventually plugged the varmint. Cat litter container was a one shot stop.

[Scharfschuetze]

Now they get recruits that never pulled a trigger.

One of the complaints from field officers in the Frontier Army was that most of the recruits did not have any firearms expertise. This is a common thread from the Civil War forward and is, as noted above, still the case in the US Military. What's now an additional problem, is that the military, after years of liberal/progressive bureaucratic thinking and tinkering does all it can to stymie off duty marksmanship and firearms ownership. Most bases still have recreation shooting ranges, but the rules allowing firearms on base are just getting worse and worse.

JBLM has a good hunting and shooting program through the on base MWR; but... it just keeps getting harder to promote marksmanship, particularly after the Bill Clinton administration's social engineering of the military.

[Multigunner]

Thumbcocker wrote

My Great Great Grandfather immigrated from Germany in the 1870's and joined the army to get his citizenship at the end of his hitch. I read part of his journal about the ship crossing. There were also a few entries about growing a garden at his post. (The journal had been translated) He had a leg up because he spoke English. Family lore has it that he campaigned in Utah and elsewhere but I have no idea what unit he served in . I do have what is supposed to be his saber although I am told it is a Prussian pattern so I don't know if he was issued it or it is something he brought over with him.

I've read of a German officer who was the only Confederate calvaryman to use only his sword at the battle of Brandy station. I have to wonder how he survived bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Many European veterans fought on either side in that war. Hungarian Hussars were especially commended for joining the Federal forces. I expect there were about as many European swords in use in that war as there were American made swords, especially on the Confederate side.
While the Federals had plenty of arms factories they made a point of buying up surplus European arms just to prevent Confederate purchasing agents from getting them.

I've heard of one model of Confederate artilleryman's short sword that was made in France at a factory that had made identical swords for the Romans many centuries earlier.

[doc1876]

to answer the original question, there is a complete section in Poinsettes of 1841, and Cooks manual (1859 I think) for each weapon used on horseback. You were required to learn the manual by repetition (most could not read), so as to not get yourself and your comrades killed. Of course, we all know that back then, you only got a few weeks training, and were immediately thrust into battle, thus training under fire was the code of the day. This meant , you either learned or did not come back, so this is why you will hear of the great pistolerros, not those that did not make it back.
the pistol lost favor long about the middle of the war, giving way to the saber, as by now the yankees were getting proficient with it, and the rebs had to learn how to use it to stay alive. The saber is always loaded, where as the pistol is not. Carrying more than one pistol, or extra cylinders did indeed happen, however it was more of a "western Theater" thing. (meaning Illinois, Arkansas, Missouri, Texas... the western states at that time)

I have two 1840 "Wristbreakers" that were made in Europe for the fracus. I love the feel and balance of it better instead of the 1860. Btw, I am willing to sell one, and as it is unmarked, there is no provenance which means it is not one of the high dollar Confederate Sabers that were used at yada yada yada..

[Texantothecore]

The Johnny Appleseed training is basically the old Army marksmanship training. I have heard that it is excellent.

Best training now would be with a group of cas cavalry shooters. Many of them have researched techniques used in the cw and the Indian wars.

They will be very expert on training a horse to be stable in the midst of gunfire which is probably the most difficult part.

"Oh.. You can shoot off the back of any horse......once."

[44man]

IIRC Elmer was talking about dismounted troopers. Did some 200 yard shooting today with a Bisley .44 from seated backrest. Bad guy would have been in trouble; the detergent bottle I was shooting at less so but I still eventually plugged the varmint. Cat litter container was a one shot stop.
I don't think anyone with a C&B shot 200 yards or even a .45 Colt, back then.
I grew up reading Elmer and with my first .44 Flat top in 1956, I shot 400 to over 500 yards. Best shot ever was taking hair off a running chuck at 550 yards, off hand. You see, I believed the man. He was the greatest and the start of what we have today. I don't like his boolit but that is moot.
Remember there was no .44 mag back then. Mostly a RB so slow it would never hit anything at 200.176449 These are 200 except the second can at 100. The left can rolled for the picture but was centered. My best group was 2-1/2" at 500 yards.
Yes I believed Elmer but there was nothing back during the war that could do it.
How to guess drop? This is my .44 at 200, dropped 35". How far for a ball? 176450

[44man]

Been there, done that, Can a modern revolver shoot 1000 yards, sure. I clanged steel rams at 500 meters (547 yards) every shot but drop was estimated at 26 to 30', FEET my friend. Yes I had silver bars on the front sight back then but soon I needed more barrel above the rear sight.
Shooting from a horse??? Yes but takes training. I had horses and a turkey that followed me to my range. I shot big and it did not bother them since I shot a lot. The turkey was funny, gobble at every shot. Had a donkey do the same, stand at my bench. I would go back up and tell Tommy, the turkey to come. He would walk with me. I had one problem, sometimes the animals would go down range so I had to get up and get them out of the way.
I have 2 dogs in the garage that are scared of thunder and fireworks. My little Pekinese does not care, lightning, thunder and a down pour. Seen deer and a squirrel this morning. She looks or sits to watch. She has been 10' from deer and they do not fear her. Deer actually come to see her. They seem to know. Had deer within 5'. I have almost hand fed them with my dog with me. I picked apples to drop in front of the deer. I think I could have had them eat from my hand.

[ole 5 hole group]

"Oh.. You can shoot off the back of any horse......once."

If you ever attended a rodeo, you may think you know what it's all about; but unless you or someone else that you're watching have shot a firearm while sitting in the saddle of a gun-shy horse (which is about 99.6% of horses), you really haven't seen a good display of a bucking, crow-hopping horse.:D

Usually something gets a little tore up - either you or your firearm, sometimes both.

[44man]

Yes, NEVER first from a horse or you will be busted up. But to have a 2000# Belgian 2' from a .475 and not care was not something I trained for. He was just in the woods when I shot and got used to it as did the others. They always came down to me. Had the same when I shot farmers lands. Cows would come when we shot and got to be in the way. You would think the noise scared them but they were nosy.

[Thumbcocker]

I absolutely believe that a soda can at 200 is possible, not sure if it is for me or not but I will keep plugging at it. I was very tickled with the cat litter container. Mrs. Thumbcocker's spotting is very helpful. My original post, which could have been clearer, was about a dismounted trooper with a .45 Schofield or Colt cartridge revolver. I have read about a Border Patrol agent making hits on a bad guy at 200 yards with a .38 special New Service. The bad guy was shooting at the agents with a rifle. Don't know how much zip that .38 had at 200 but I still would not have volunteered to catch it. I fully believe that it was possible. I have often wondered how many people out in the world were doing stuff others might find impossible with firearms but never talked about it or just shared with a few friends.

[44man]

Yeah, watched Jerry hit a balloon at 1000 with a nine revolver. Where in the world did he hold? how many millions of shots did it take to find out?
I watched Bob do crazy but I seen his hands were black from thousands of shots.
We need to go back to see what those fellas shot during the war. You talk 40', 50' or over 100' over. I was able to hit because my spotter with a spotting scope would walk me in. I had to aim at a tree branch way over. How about wind? Many shots at IHMSA had me aim at the next ram at 200 meters to hit mine.
Another thing is light. a target can't be where you see it. Sun position is important. Most times the target you see is NOT there.

[Char-Gar]

The Cavalry were issued sabers with a blunt "U" shaped edged, to save the horses from being cut. There were however many horses that were shot. You can't blunt a bullet.

The brightest and best of American did not enlist in the United States Army in the late 19th century.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

A friend of mine, he is on this site BTW told me about a job his wife had many years ago in which she received old military training films that were to be destroyed. The idea was to salvage the silver in the old black & white film. The sad part was that many of the them were cavalry training films. They would be worth a fortune today. They would be a God send to the military channel. Attached are two manuals a friend of mine was issued in WWII.

[doc1876]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOyvimZuF5o

I borrowed a friends horse for the 150th of Chickamauga, and he had never been around gunfire. Having ridden cav for over 40 years, I was fully aware of my situation. I will tell you that the first experience he had was about 20 feet from a Mountain howitzer, and while I held him, and, reassured him, he took it very well. of course the other horses were no where to be seen.
I firmly believe if he horse trusts you, you can do a lot with it. Years ago, I had in "my remuda" a sorrel, named Brandy that became the most requested horse in hollywood for her ability to stay in control during fire fights. If you watch Gods and Generals, she is the sorrel that Stonewall rides through most of the movie.
I truly believe that if you get good with the rhythm, you can hit what you want from a horse at 25-50 yards with a pistol. I will tell you I have had better luck, on the run, with a pistol than a long gun. The balance is a PIA for the 20 inch barrels.

[ddixie884]

Most revolvers of that era were sighted to shoot high. I once shot a .44russian that belonged to a friend of mine in the Navy. The factory Remington ammo I found at a LGS 246gr at 700+ shot high enough to use a center hold on a man to 100 or so yards, but was not of any use in my hands against a pop can at 20 or 30 feet. I had to aim 6 or 8 inches low. I was barely 21 and had only shot more modern revolvers, which tended to hit closer to the sights.

[M-Tecs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOyvimZuF5o

I borrowed a friends horse for the 150th of Chickamauga, and he had never been around gunfire. Having ridden cav for over 40 years, I was fully aware of my situation. I will tell you that the first experience he had was about 20 feet from a Mountain howitzer, and while I held him, and, reassured him, he took it very well. of course the other horses were no where to be seen.
I firmly believe if he horse trusts you, you can do a lot with it. Years ago, I had in "my remuda" a sorrel, named Brandy that became the most requested horse in hollywood for her ability to stay in control during fire fights. If you watch Gods and Generals, she is the sorrel that Stonewall rides through most of the movie.
I truly believe that if you get good with the rhythm, you can hit what you want from a horse at 25-50 yards with a pistol. I will tell you I have had better luck, on the run, with a pistol than a long gun. The balance is a PIA for the 20 inch barrels.

Very cool stories. During the late 60's and 70's my dad was a member of a 7th Calvary re-enactment group. He got very good with a revolver on horse back. In those days they used birdshot loads in competition, however, in practice he mostly used bullets. He killed numerous red foxes on horseback with a revolver in either 22Lr or 45 Colt. In the 45 Colt the loads was a 255 grain Lyman 454190 over 8 grains of Unique.

[beagle]

Ran across some stuff of my dad's not long ago and included was his discharge as Corporal, E Troop, 19th Cavalry, NCNG. Born in 1909, he enlisted in the guard as a young unmarried man and had a full time guard job taking care of the horses and stables at the armory. Lived there for several years in fact.

Remembered him telling about a mounted range course set up for pistol practice (M1917s) and sabre practice with targets on both sides. Occasionally they'd get a bullet hole in an ear and he said that some of the old horses they had were gun shy which really made the course interesting. He said that they used it quite frequently. This must have been in the late 20s or early 30s. Ammunition must have been plentiful after the glut produced for WWI.

Wish now, I'd made him talk more about it./beagle

QUOTE=Blackwater;3771731]I hope this tidbit of "thread drift" will be pardoned, but FWIW, a life long buddy's Dad originally joined the cavalry when he entered the Army. When his son asked "Why the cavalry, Dad? Wasn't the cavalry out of style back then?" His Dad just smiles a deadpan smile, and asked him back, "Well, would you rather walk or ride?"

Another funny (now) experience he had was in training, his unit was in training to fire at targets on the right and left at a gallop. They were supposed to fire on one side, then lift the gun up high and over to the other side and fire as they passed that target. One hapless fellow who really wasn't much of a horseman tried it, and instead of lifting the .45, with its SA trigger pull, up and over to the other side, he just brought it straight across on a level, and his horse came down just as the pistol reached center, causing him to naturally contract his muscles, which caused him to pull the trigger, hitting his horse in the back of the head and killing it instantly. Naturally, he had a hard landing and was thoroughly humiliated. His Dad said the hapless guy was STILL having his paycheck docked for paying off that horse when he mustered out!

Imagine! Shooting your own horse right out from under you! This is why SA's are so popular among horsemen, even today! They won't go off unless and until you cock them, and that's pretty hard to do, even among Army inductees! They probably should have kept some of those old Colt SA's for the cavalry, but most adapted well to the 1911, even on horseback, but it took TRAINING to get them to respect the potential. There's no telling how many guys that hapless horse-shooter helped respect the .45. Just thought some would appreciate the humor in this. Horses introduce an element into warfare that is rather unique, and that call for a rather peculiar order of arms. It ain't child's play riding horses and shooting![/QUOTE]

[doc1876]

Very cool stories. During the late 60's and 70's my dad was a member of a 7th Calvary re-enactment group. He got very good with a revolver on horse back. In those days they used birdshot loads in competition, however, in practice he mostly used bullets. He killed numerous red foxes on horseback with a revolver in either 22Lr or 45 Colt. In the 45 Colt the loads was a 255 grain Lyman 454190 over 8 grains of Unique.


Who is your father, I have ridden with Karl Luthin's 7th Ill, since 1982 or so and befor that I was in a lot of cav and artillary units. They call me Thumper
we just did a production for AMC called someting to the West. The show sucked and the sillyness behind the camera was insane, but I got paid.

[M-Tecs]

Who is your father, I have ridden with Karl Luthin's 7th Ill, since 1982 or so and befor that I was in a lot of cav and artillary units. They call me Thumper
we just did a production for AMC called someting to the West. The show sucked and the sillyness behind the camera was insane, but I got paid.

PM sent

[Ilwil]

Troopers in the 1870's carried just 12 more spare cartridges for their revolvers, so I think they were obviously meant for close quarters. last ditch defense. They also carried a limited amount of carbine ammo for their primary weapon. The pack trains carried reserve ammo. The army decided the Civil War had shown the proper use of cavalry was as dismounted infantry. However, if you read about cavalry actions in the 1850s here in the northwest and the Texas frontier, you see the primary weapon was the saber, which badly spooked Indians and often won the day.

[wyofool]

I Wanna Be In The Cavalry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1V3JW4HeBs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1V3JW4HeBs)
Okay one more.
Horse Soldier! Horse Soldier!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIWINsaEpnw