webley 1892 loads

[ehsa]

i have owned a 1892 wilkinson webley for 10 years without ever shooting it and would like to give it a go. richard milner of wilkinson says the revolver was made between 1893 & 1900. this gun perfectly chambers factory and some of me 45 colt reloads which i know would be too high pressure. so i happen to have 500 230 grain lead bullets sized .452 which i bought years ago for one of my 45 colts or smith & wesson revolvers. any i have limited knowledge concerning these webley 1892 richard milner says the gun was orginally chambered for the .455 black powder round and does not recommend even colt cowboy loads and some folks say stay away from the fiocchi .455 factory rounds as well. so im thinking i am set up for 45 colt reloading and i have black powder available so mabey a start load of 28 grains of 3f with this 230 grain flat base bullet. i know the orignial bullet was about 260 grain hollow base but i dont have any of those and no 455 cases but since the 45 cases fit wouldnt that shorten bullet jump anyway. i know that there is a rcbs hollow base mold available but i am not set up for casting. no photos of the gun at this time as i am not able to do so. appreciate any help or thoughts.john

[Wayne Smith]

Is the cylinder bored straight through or does it have a chamber edge?
Remember that a BP cartridge has to be full. If you use 45 Colt cases you have to fill the case to the bottom of the boolit - and thus may overpower the gun. If you use a filler you have to add that weight to the weight of the boolit to know what you are loading. The 455 case had significantly less capacity than the 45 Colt so you probably ought to think about cutting back your cases to the appropriate length. This will make them obvious as well, so you don't accidently load one of your full charge 45 Colt rounds in it.

[Outpost75]

I shoot a Boer War period Webley Mark IV of the same era as yours and I shoot light smokeless loads in it with no issues. I use the Saeco 230-grain #954 Cowboy bullet with 4 grains of Bullseye, cast of soft 1:30 tin-lead and tumbled in Lee Liquid Alox, loaded and shot as-cast and unsized. Velocity is about 680 fps.

If you don't cast your own, Matt's Bullets is a good source I have used which is very affordable.

http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=71&products_id=206

[bouncer50]

I have a Webley made in 1894 a Mark 1 45 Colt should not fit the cylinder the rims have to be thin down the 45 Colt is to thick for the cylinder to turn. 1894 was the first year for smokeless powder in the Webley. I have a 1873 French pistol that i use light smokeless loads in and it safe. I also have a 1919 Webley that was rechamber to 45 Colt most were rechamber to 45 ACP which in my opinion is to high pressure unless you reload and reduce the load

[bouncer50]

Their was two ways to rechamber a Webley one was shave down the cylinder or mill down the recoil shield on the frame. I have a feeling since your will chamber 45 Colt it has been rechamber like a lot have been.

[ehsa]

I have a Webley made in 1894 a Mark 1 45 Colt should not fit the cylinder the rims have to be thin down the 45 Colt is to thick for the cylinder to turn. 1894 was the first year for smokeless powder in the Webley. I have a 1873 French pistol that i use light smokeless loads in and it safe. I also have a 1919 Webley that was rechamber to 45 Colt most were rechamber to 45 ACP which in my opinion is to high pressure unless you reload and reduce the load
thank you all for the responses and for the bullet link. i chambered some factory cowboy loads as well as some of my reloads. the cowboy loads are ultra max and winchester brand with 250 grain bullets they all chamber and of my sampling them i would carefully go outside the house to cock the revolver and out of six only one would not allow the cylinde to rotate.i tried some georgia arms ammo 230 grain hollow point rated at 900 fps they chamber and cocking the hammer the cylinder rotates with no stoppage. i do not know what was done to this revolver and i am not sure how to check for that.richard milner suggested that perhaps the cylinder was bored deeper to allow deeper seating or that the chamber mouth was machined with a small rebate to allow the rim to seat deeper. i just double checked and the rims of the case fit like they would in modern colts or simiths with the rim sticking above the cylinder and not like on my smith and wesson 629 with counter sunk rim. i also appreciate wayne smiths commets and it looks to me like the cylinder was bored thru so no chamber edge. wayne how about a wad on top of the reduced load. i have ox yoke made for 44 cap and ball. i also like the idea of small charges of smokeless. mabey some trail boss or blue dot and a wad.thank you all for i want much info before trying or loading anything. appreciate the reminder of no air space with black powder.john

[Cheshire Dave]

I used 45 Schofield brass from Starline trimmed to fit the chambers in my S&W HE2 made for the British and thinned the rims in a drill press with a file. PITA. Fun gun to shoot with light smokeless loads. My S&W had 1.000 inch chamber so I trimmed to .99. Chamber length seems to be all over the place from the info I got online. I guess mine is is actually a .455 Eley. I used a Lee 255 gr mold "Beagled" to drop boolits at .456. I didn't want to invest in a RCBS 265 hollow base for the amount I will shoot this old gal. The Lee shoots as well as I can see the crappy sights.

[Wayne Smith]

Since you apparantly have a 45Colt or so I would still recommend you either get 45S&W brass and trim it or trim some of your 45Colt brass to appropriate length. Then you can load the original BP load without problems since the base of the brass fits.

The big issue to me is to ensure that the ammo for this revolver is visually distinctive.

[ehsa]

Since you apparantly have a 45Colt or so I would still recommend you either get 45S&W brass and trim it or trim some of your 45Colt brass to appropriate length. Then you can load the original BP load without problems since the base of the brass fits.

The big issue to me is to ensure that the ammo for this revolver is visually distinctive.
thank you wayne as you are right about not mixing up ammo.john

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Their was two ways to rechamber a Webley one was shave down the cylinder or mill down the recoil shield on the frame. I have a feeling since your will chamber 45 Colt it has been rechamber like a lot have been.

I'm inclined to think something of the kind was done, and there is no substitute for checking the groove diameter and making a chamber cast. It is easily done with a revolver, and though Cerrosafe alloy is best, melted sulphur or car body repair filler will do. If it is sulphur don't get it hot enough for ignition of the gas, which will promote rusting of nearby steel. If it is body filler don't forget to oil the chamber.

There are two anomalies here. One is the rim thickness and the other is being able to get the full length of the .45LC case in. The .455 rounds definitely had a shoulder at the end of the brass and a reduced throat, and so did the .450 which preceded them. Is the revolver actually marked (probably on the left barrel flat) with the calibre designation, or has Richard Milner actually examined it? Some Webley and other revolvers were designated .455/.476, meaning that they would accept either the .455 MkI or II, or the cartridge made for the generally unloved Enfield revolver which preceded them.

This is quite a confusing story, which I don't claim to know in full detail. I believe the Enfield had the same groove diameter and perhaps even the same twist as the Martini-Henry. (It was certainly made on the same machinery.) It is often described as interchangeable with the .455 in any revolver, which would make the .455/.476 mark unnecessary. The story I find most convincing is the first two versions of the .476 had a .455 bullet, which was found unsatisfactory. So the MkIII had a .474 to .476 heel bullet, which would justify a cylinder bored straight through in a revolver intended to accept it. I know it was hollow based with a clay plug like the .577 Snider had had.Your revolver might have an appropriate bore diameter, or be intended to swage that kind of bullet (though not a flat based and very hard one) through a .455 bore.

A .452 bullet is undersize for any Webley, which wouldn't matter if it was like some .455s, with an undersized throat. I have meadepesured a friend's well made and original Webley-Fosbery at .448in. throat. This surely depended on a hollow base, for good accuracy with what many consider the kiss of death for revolver accuracy. Some of them do delivery very good accuracy indeed, and many users manage with flat based, but these have to be really soft.

[w30wcf]

ehsa,
Welcome to the forum. It seems as though someone had the cylinders bored straight through since .45 Colt brass / ammo does chamber. Likely the best accuracy is going to come from using .45 Colt brass.

One option would be to load 18 grs of black powder (original b.p. load) and then seat the bullet deep into the case down onto the powder. I did something similar in shooting a 1/2 charge of b.p. in the .45 Colt case. After seating the bullet down on the powder and compressing it a bit, I ran the completed cartridge back into the sizing die and sized it down to the top edge of the bullet to keep it in place which worked well and was accurate at 25 yards.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/45%20colt%20200%2020%20grs.jpg

Velocity in the Ruger's 7 1/2 barrel was....
.............Goex 3F - 778 f.p.s.
Olde Enysford 3F - 831 f.p.s.

w30wcf

[ehsa]

ehsa,
Welcome to the forum. It seems as though someone had the cylinders bored straight through since .45 Colt brass / ammo does chamber. Likely the best accuracy is going to come from using .45 Colt brass.

One option would be to load 18 grs of black powder (original b.p. load) and then seat the bullet deep into the case down onto the powder. I did something similar in shooting a 1/2 charge of b.p. in the .45 Colt case. After seating the bullet down on the powder and compressing it a bit, I ran the completed cartridge back into the sizing die and sized it down to the top edge of the bullet to keep it in place which worked well and was accurate at 25 yards.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/45%20colt%20200%2020%20grs.jpg

Velocity in the Ruger's 7 1/2 barrel was....
.............Goex 3F - 778 f.p.s.
Olde Enysford 3F - 831 f.p.s.

w30wcf
thank you for the information.i do not remember ever seeing any caliber markings on the revolver and i have not slugged it.i just got it out after about 10 years to look it over. will be tomorrow before i can check it further. thanks to all.john

[Outpost75]

I believe that John has posted the most simple and technically correct, most elegant solution!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

ehsa,
Welcome to the forum. It seems as though someone had the cylinders bored straight through since .45 Colt brass / ammo does chamber. Likely the best accuracy is going to come from using .45 Colt brass.

One option would be to load 18 grs of black powder (original b.p. load) and then seat the bullet deep into the case down onto the powder. I did something similar in shooting a 1/2 charge of b.p. in the .45 Colt case. After seating the bullet down on the powder and compressing it a bit, I ran the completed cartridge back into the sizing die and sized it down to the top edge of the bullet to keep it in place which worked well and was accurate at 25 yards.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/45%20colt%20200%2020%20grs.jpg

Velocity in the Ruger's 7 1/2 barrel was....
.............Goex 3F - 778 f.p.s.
Olde Enysford 3F - 831 f.p.s.

w30wcf

That does indeed look like the best way of doing things, if the chamber is as we surmise - which could be a recent modification, an old one, or the way the revolver was built. I've consulted AB Zhuk's "Illustrated Encyclopedia of Handguns" (a collection of hand drawings which might sound second best to photographs but isn't). A MkIII Webley, adopted by the military in 1897, has the .455/.476 stamp, but a Webley-Wilkinson has neither this nor the patent and trademark stamps which soon became about universal on Webleys.

The existence of the MkIII .476 means no intention to use the .45LC Colt need be inferred, although Webley were certainly aware of it, as they used it in the Webley Army Express, a solid frame revolver rather like a largern Royal Irish Constabulary model. Even Rider Haggard's Alan Quatermain (in the pages of fiction unfortunately) used a Colt with the American pattern cartridges. Its absence from any official hinged frame Webley has to tell us something.

If a full wadcutter mould is available, it could be used with the cartridge you illustrate, and avoid the risk of debris getting down the ogive of the bullet. While there are circumstances in which an airspace over the powder can lead to a dangerous pressure-wave, I doubt if about half the capacity of fine black powder in a large-calibre revolver cartridge is one of them. For comparison, recent research shows that 212,000 of the rather weak Swiss M1889 rifle were active and reserve weapons for 55 years with a 60% smokeless load (rather than the common mistranslation as semi-smokeless), and we don't hear of mishaps.

I believe I have a small piece of the Webley-Wilkinson, since my Spirlet (close to my child, since I probably saved it from being cannibalised for its ivory by making the hammer and trigger-guard) copies the fluted barrel rib which Webley appear to have introduced about simultaneously on their Wilkinson and Pryse models.


176166

176167

Not to hijack the thread, but... Does your other ID refer to Black Jack Christian the outlaw? My favourite author on shooting, fishing, animal behaviour and South American revolutions is Thurlow Craig, whose career spanned First World War naval service and being the extremely popular nature correspondent of a national newspaper in the, and his, 80s. Part of his biography is "Black Jack's Spurs" - the part he wouldn't let his sons read till they were sixteen, Paraguay in the earlies being an extremely informal place.

176168


He was given the spurs, and his ambition to become a cowboy was kindled, by his Uncle Ernest, who after making it big in silver in the Mogollones returned to the UK to become a politician and baronet. As his cousin Ernestine told it, Black Jack's confederate George Musgrave turned up on Ernest's doorstep after the hanging, and sold him Black Jack's horse, saddle and spurs. (It is possible that Ernest was buying, principally, Musgrave's permanent disappearance.) More than twenty years later Craig bought a particularly good horse from a man named Steward in South America. He claimed that he joined a guerrilla column in the Brazilian Paulista revolt to stop one side or the other from confiscating the Bobby horse. Only long after that he discovered that Steward was Musgrave, who had made the transition from minor western outlaw to modern crime boss in South America.

Cousin Ernestine, in describing how Black Jack's head was jerked off when an amateur hangman misjudged the drop, got it wrong. That happened to Black Jack Ketchum. Black Jack Christian was killed in the Skeleton Canyon shootout of 1897. I believe the rest, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Jack_Christian

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Craig

[ehsa]

took a look at the webley and there are no caliber markings anywhere. of interest the top of the barrel is marked WILKINSON SWORD CO PALL MALL LONDON then also on top of the barrel crowns over the letters bv bp np. on the bottom flat of the barrel are the initials N.B.E. and regiment designation LHTE 4TH HUSSARS.the webley serial# is 1181x and on the wood stock the wilkinson sword# is 966x. there is a inlay on the back of the wood grip for engraving but it is blank.star of david on the right side of the frame.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Now that is interesting. The 4th Hussars, second regiment into the battery in the Charge of the Light Brigade, and Winston Churchill's regiment, although he was attached to the 21st Lancers in 1898, when he probably saved his own life by killing some four men in a few seconds in "the last horsed charge of British cavalry", with his Mauser C96. Unfortunately this revolver dates from too late for the owner to figure in the complete muster rolls, with biographical detail, in Canon (and ex-Captain) William Lummis's "Honour the Light Brigade".

http://www.genes.plus.com/ARMYLIST/Dragoons.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_Queen%27s_Own_Hussars

Robert Wilkinson-Latham of the Wilkinson family posts in the Antique & Military Sword forum of this website, and has copious Wilkinson records:

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/forum.php

This revolver would have been privately purchased, and one set of initials might be the owner. I would be surer if the escutcheon on the butt wasn't blank. Are you sure that the second isn't "Late 4th Hussars", as might be done for someone retired or attached to one of the army's administrative and service corps? Cavalry regiments weren't large in those days, and this revolver was state of the at for only a short period, so there is a good chance that the regimental museum will have a record of NBE.

http://www.thequeensownhussars.co.uk/regimental_museum.htm

Those proofmarks are interesting, if they do indeed correspond to what you see here. For they are post-1904 nitro proof. I'd have thought this was late for the Webley-Wilkinson, which I believe was superseded as the better-quality version by the WG model. It could be all done as new, or showing reproof by someone who had got anxious about all this new smokeless stuff. I think the Webley-Wilkinson should be fine for the normal .455 smokeless load, though now that nearly everyone reloads for them, care should be taken not to exceed it.

http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf

The star of David might be by analogy with a mark sometimes seen on British swords, in the form of a brass or bronze disc expanded into the bottom of a circular recess, though I don't know if Wilkinsons, who were primarily swordmakers, used it. It doesn't appear to have any Jewish connotation. It is simply the about the easiest pattern to machine-engrave on the end of a round punch with six cuts as it rotates sixty degrees.

[17nut]

Unless Webley changed the design a lot there is simply no room for a 45LC case with a bullet seated normally (at least not in my MK VI).

Cylinder of a Colt 1873 SAA and a MK VI

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Webley%20revolver/R0012318_zpsaxdyh4in.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Skydning/Webley%20revolver/R0012318_zpsaxdyh4in.jpg.html)

MK VI cylinder with a 45LC (standard length) and a (way) long .455

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Webley%20revolver/R0012319_zpsqtffq1g2.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Skydning/Webley%20revolver/R0012319_zpsqtffq1g2.jpg.html)

Note the bullet overhang and that is with a thick rim

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Webley%20revolver/R0012320_zpsjnlhubrs.jpg
(http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Skydning/Webley%20revolver/R0012320_zpsjnlhubrs.jpg.html)

Slug that barrel and see what the cat has brought in, then well take it from there.

[17nut]

Thought!
If the chambers are indeed reamed through in full case diameter then you might gain some accurracy by using shortened .460S&W cases that support the bullet right into the forcing cone, instead of a 45LC and let the bullet "rattle" from the case to the barrel..

[ehsa]

Now that is interesting. The 4th Hussars, second regiment into the battery in the Charge of the Light Brigade, and Winston Churchill's regiment, although he was attached to the 21st Lancers in 1898, when he probably saved his own life by killing some four men in a few seconds in "the last horsed charge of British cavalry", with his Mauser C96. Unfortunately this revolver dates from too late for the owner to figure in the complete muster rolls, with biographical detail, in Canon (and ex-Captain) William Lummis's "Honour the Light Brigade".

http://www.genes.plus.com/ARMYLIST/Dragoons.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_Queen%27s_Own_Hussars

Robert Wilkinson-Latham of the Wilkinson family posts in the Antique & Military Sword forum of this website, and has copious Wilkinson records:

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/forum.php

This revolver would have been privately purchased, and one set of initials might be the owner. I would be surer if the escutcheon on the butt wasn't blank. Are you sure that the second isn't "Late 4th Hussars", as might be done for someone retired or attached to one of the army's administrative and service corps? Cavalry regiments weren't large in those days, and this revolver was state of the at for only a short period, so there is a good chance that the regimental museum will have a record of NBE.

http://www.thequeensownhussars.co.uk/regimental_museum.htm

Those proofmarks are interesting, if they do indeed correspond to what you see here. For they are post-1904 nitro proof. I'd have thought this was late for the Webley-Wilkinson, which I believe was superseded as the better-quality version by the WG model. It could be all done as new, or showing reproof by someone who had got anxious about all this new smokeless stuff. I think the Webley-Wilkinson should be fine for the normal .455 smokeless load, though now that nearly everyone reloads for them, care should be taken not to exceed it.

http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf

The star of David might be by analogy with a mark sometimes seen on British swords, in the form of a brass or bronze disc expanded into the bottom of a circular recess, though I don't know if Wilkinsons, who were primarily swordmakers, used it. It doesn't appear to have any Jewish connotation. It is simply the about the easiest pattern to machine-engrave on the end of a round punch with six cuts as it rotates sixty degrees. took another look i checked and it is possible that what i think is an H may be an A. those letters are i guess in block form and if this is an A the two vertical bars at the top almost close with what would be a flat top A instead of a teepee shape. the star of david has H. W. in the center of the star.i looked at all these marks with a magnifying glass.about 9 years ago richard milner sent me an email and said that churchills wilkinsons was numbered close to mine with his webley serial# being 11869 mine is 11816. he said he saw churchills wilkinson but did not take note of its wilkinsons number. mine is 9661 the wilkinson sword register number.the frame has a bv with a crown and crossed swords with letters i cant be sure of.the cylinder has bv and crown, np and crown, bp and crown.these are over each chamber as well.they are above the cylinder flutes.each mark is on the cylinder twice. the cylinder is numbered to the gun 816. that number is well marked and not machined away at all.there is steel above it to the outer edge.just more things which makes it all the mor interesting.all marks are pretty clear with exception of the crossed swords on the left side of the frame.thanks a lot for the links.john

[ehsa]

ok i checked the length of the cylinder with my calipers.the webley measured 1.568 and my smith & wesson 45 colt mountain revolver 1.675 a difference of 0.107. the georgia manufactured round that worked so well a 230 grain bullet is 1.569 and the cowboy loads from ultramax a 250 grain flat nose lead bullet are 1.575 and the winchester cowboy loads 250 grain flat nose are 1.572.these being over all loaded lenghts. the first one (230) never gave any problem some of the 250 would not let the cylinder turn but part of the time.john

[ehsa]

i will slug it but i wont be able too utill next week.john

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Your cylinder would have accommodated the US Army round for the Schofield Smith and Wesson, or a perfectly workable loading of the .45LC case. Not that I think this was ever intended by Webley.

Churchill was commissioned in 1895, and would surely have bought a pistol which couldn't have been the Mauser C96, so it is a good chance that it was the Webley Richard Milner describes. He claimed to have bought the Mauser because he badly dislocated his shoulder in an accident, landing from a boat in Bombay harbour. Despite having been public schools fencing champion of England he no longer felt confident of using his sword. That may seem like a retrograde step, and his love of gadgetry a better explanation. But that was before the effectiveness of the Mauser's small bullet was severely reduced by the Hague Convention of 1899, and a clip-loading pistol might have been easier to use on a horse with a hard suspension. By WW2 he favoured the Colt 1911, and probably carried it in his bath.

There are numerous reasons why those proofmarks may have been there from new, without your revolver not preceding an 1895 purchase by Churchill. It might be that Churchill bought his rather later, when he realised that there could be wars in which he couldn't get caught with expanding bullets. Various businesses were more willing to hold stock long-term in those days, and a Webley-Wilkinson may have lingered a long time unfinished in the factory, or in retail stock, when people were buying the less elegant WG etc.

[Oyeboten]

i have owned a 1892 wilkinson webley for 10 years without ever shooting it and would like to give it a go. richard milner of wilkinson says the revolver was made between 1893 & 1900. this gun perfectly chambers factory and some of me 45 colt reloads which i know would be too high pressure. so i happen to have 500 230 grain lead bullets sized .452 which i bought years ago for one of my 45 colts or smith & wesson revolvers. any i have limited knowledge concerning these webley 1892 richard milner says the gun was orginally chambered for the .455 black powder round and does not recommend even colt cowboy loads and some folks say stay away from the fiocchi .455 factory rounds as well. so im thinking i am set up for 45 colt reloading and i have black powder available so mabey a start load of 28 grains of 3f with this 230 grain flat base bullet. i know the orignial bullet was about 260 grain hollow base but i dont have any of those and no 455 cases but since the 45 cases fit wouldnt that shorten bullet jump anyway. i know that there is a rcbs hollow base mold available but i am not set up for casting. no photos of the gun at this time as i am not able to do so. appreciate any help or thoughts.john





If your Wilkinson .455 was 'converted' to chamber .45 Colt, I expect you would be just fine with Black Powder of course, ( and Bullet Lube suited to Black Powder ) and, that you may as well just go ahead and use .45 Colt Cartridge Cases then, and you can just retain the Bullet Weight and Powder Charge which would have been used in the .455 Webley Black Powder Cartridges of that time period...and stay with pure Lead Bullets, of course.

No 'Bullet Jump' then, and, an all in all tidier condition than trying to use .455 Cases.

You can do this by using Malto Meal or Corn Meal ( aka "filler' ) to take up the extra space left by a 28 Grain Charge and seat your Bullet to a normal depth for .45 Colt, with some good compression of the charge and added inert 'filler'. Bullet should compress the Powder ( or Powder with Malto Meal or Corn Meal on top of it, ) at least somewhat firmly. One must not have any air space in a Black Powder Cartridge.

The small amount of additional ejecta weight, of the Malto Meal or Corn Meal, would not bother anything. And if you wish, you could just weigh how much that is, and find a .455 Bullet which weighs that much less ( than whatever the proper Bullet weight was or is, for the .455 as it had been, when your Revolver was made ).

Or...

The other thing you could do, is use .45 Colt Cases, and ream the Cases a little ways down on their inside, so you can seat your .455 Bullet on to the 28 Grain Powder charge, with no 'filler', without worry of bulging the Cartridge Case.

This of course would be the most elegant of all for this situation.


I have a circa 1915 Smith & Wesson, 2nd Model Hand Ejector, which was originally chambered in .455 Webley, but which had been "converted" some time along the way, so that it accepts not only .45 Colt, but .45 ACP in Moon Clips.

Eeeesh!

My solution to this mess, was to modify the annular 'ring' of the .45 Colt Cases, so they fit nicely on to full "Moon Clips".

This worked wonderfully, and I have an excellent Head Space, and no dreaded 'Bullet Jump'...and I have no worries about firing ordinary charges of .45 Colt, using .455 Bullets.

I personally prefer Black Powder, so, I can not imagine there is any strain to the S & W whatever with that.

Yours Wilkenson I trust, is not such a mess as that one is!

But, always, where there's a will, there's a way...and often enough, the way can be nicely done with a little ingenuity and patience and skill.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I often mention Thurlow Craig, but since he is my favourite author on shooting, fishing, animal behaviour and South American revolutions, there is plenty of opportunity. He bought his New Service Colts in .455 (as you could very cheaply at the time), and rechambered them for .45LC. He also had the recoil plate skimmed the rear of the cylinder to accommodate half-moon clips or the Auto-rim, and had a thin screw-on plate made. Headspace for the LC was more than the .455 needs, but at a pinch you could get reasonable performance with just about every .45 cartridge there was.

The many .45 ACP US conversions of the break-open Webleys are another story, though, and I think there could be danger at two points, almost infinitesimally divided in time. If the Webley has the undersized throat I mentioned, it seems too small for the GI hardball bullet. As I said, I don't know if this changed when Hague Convention jacketed bullets came in. The more knowledgeable converters may have reamed the throats (concentrically with the bore and chamber would be nice), but I don't know if they all did.

Next the bullet hits the rifling. The M1873 French ordnance revolver, designed by Henri-Gustave Delvigne who was born in 1798, is in most respects an excellent and robust single-ejecting revolver. But it has often been rechambered to .45ACP, both casually and by the French Resistance, who received reamers in parachute drops. The bore diameter is right, and yet it has a history of breaking topstraps. I have seen some very convincing calculations by a French engineer which suggest that the pressure ought to leave an adequate margin of safety if lead is used. The villain of the piece seems to be the abrupt impact of the hardball jacket.

The Webleys aren't particularly weak. My No3 Smith and Wesson .44 Russian is closed purely by the strength of the latch and its pin. while in the Webleys from yours onwards have mating inclined surfaces on the frame and inside the topstrap mortice. But regardless of the throat diameter, I wouldn't use heavily jacketed bullets.

[KCSO]

For bullets I use an old Ideal 45 Colt mould that drops a soft lead pill at .456 and I lube and leave it as cast for the bore of the Webely Green. I use trimmed 45 S and W cases and load 20 grains of FFg and the 255 grain bullet in modified 45 Smith and Wesson dies. I want the bullet as large as possible as my bore runs 456+. I use a greased (bees wax) felt wad to get the compression I want with the light load. This will arc the bullet out to the target at modest velocity and is about on with the sights.

[w30wcf]

In looking through my notes I see that I did test 18 grs. of black powder under the Webley hollow based bullet with the bullet seated down on the powder in a .45 Colt case. I compressed the powder .10" and added a .04" card wad on top. Average velocity in the Ruger was 768 f.p.s. Powder was Olde Enysford 3F.

In addition to b.p., I also tested some equivalent .45 Webley smokeless rounds in the .45 Colt case.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/45%20colt%2045%20Webley.jpg

The .455 smokeless cartridge on the right contained 4.5 grs of smokeless. I had two other cartridges of the same, dissected them and loaded the powder into .45 Colt brass and seated the bullets. They clocked 772 & 751 from the Ruger's 7 1/2 " barrel.

I then tested Titegroup with the hollow base Webley slugs. 4.0 = 708 avg. & 4.5 = 772 avg.

Note....I only partially sized the cases which had been fired previously leaving the expanded portion untouched forward of the rim.


Ed,
Thank you for the kind words. As we know, that is not a new idea. Way back when, some of the early target cartridges had bullets seated below the case mouths.....maybe not quite that deep though.

Ballistics In Scotland,
In answer to your question, "Does your other ID refer to Black Jack Christian the outlaw?", my nickname is Jack and since I am a Christian I chose Jack Christian as my handle when I joined SASS 20 or so years ago.


w30wcf

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Ah, I wasted a lot of space for nothing, then.

Your ideas on reloading seem fine, except that I wouldn't use a card wad with a hollow based bullet. Part of it is liable to get wedged in the base cavity, making the bullet unbalanced, or it could be dragged out from under one edge of the base and not the other, permitting one-sided gas escape as it leaves the muzzle.

The use of the pointed MkII or similar bullets does impose some danger of hard debris getting into the space between bullet nose and brass. You can bulge a shotgun (or could in the days when double gun barrels were thinner and softer) with a card wad ahead of round ball. I don't believe the streamlined shape of the MkII does the slightest bit of good, so I am surprised we don't hear more of the almost totally cylindrical MkIV and MkV bullets which replaced the eggcup-shaped Manstopper. It had the reputation of being very accurate but it disappeared when some idiot started a war, and production was simplified.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.455_Webley

The Manstopper is the only cartridge with which I have ever achieved what the British army terms a negligent discharge, and with inches of my knee too. Fortunately I was negligent, not brain-dead, which is what it would take to point that thing at my leg. A revolver encourages the bad habit of keeping a finger on the trigger, because the next shot would require a double-action pull... But not with the Webley-Fosbery it doesn't.





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.455_Webley

[Ballistics in Scotland]

For casual readers of this thread it is worth mentioning that "Mark" with Webleys, can mean three different things. There were separate series for the large-frame break-open military revolvers, and a separate series for the smaller frame pocket and WW2 military revolvers of .38 downwards. Then there were the different marks of ammunition... So "MkII" could refer to two sizes of revolver and two sizes of cartridge... Are you still paying attention, you at the back there?

[Oyeboten]

"Mattsbullets" has some appealing offerings which in some instances may be had in .454 if one asks.

Merely Boil a few seconds to remove the Smokeless Lube, if intending to use with Black Powder.

http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=71&zenid=k266hr8r90h32m0tuad75r0ri2

No 'Manstoppers' as such, but, their 250 Grain Wadcutter looks like it would be very nice.

http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=71&products_id=317&zenid=k266hr8r90h32m0tuad75r0ri2

[Oyeboten]

For casual readers of this thread it is worth mentioning that "Mark" with Webleys, can mean three different things. There were separate series for the large-frame break-open military revolvers, and a separate series for the smaller frame pocket and WW2 military revolvers of .38 downwards. Then there were the different marks of ammunition... So "MkII" could refer to two sizes of revolver and two sizes of cartridge... Are you still paying attention, you at the back there?

Nice little illustration, here, showing examples of the various and successive 'Mk' variations...

176364

[w30wcf]

Ballistics In Scotland,
I always enjoy reading your posts, so you certainly didn't "waste any space". The reason that I experimented with the Webley bullets was that I was curious to see how they might have performed. Also there was a fellow on another site that was doing the same but using 45 Cowboy cases.

Regarding the wad on the based of the hollow based bullet......I had seen some sectioned drawings that had a wad positioned at the base of the bullet, but I can see what you mean. At least for the 10 rounds that I shot, everything was well.

I also tried some Man Stopper bullets with smokeless. I didn't use a disc with those. They shot well at 25 yards.



w30wcf

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/45%20Colt%20manstopper.jpg

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Then I think those cards ought to be very frangible material, such as used to be used for shotgun over-shot wads with a rolled turnover. I have a bevel cutter to make surrounding mattes for picture framing, from a particularly hard and solid card which has a coloured surface but shows white at the bevel. I have kept the middles I cut out, as nothing could be better for some card wads, but not with a hollow base.

[ehsa]

well this 1892 webley is the only webley i have ever owned and i can see from all the posts i certainally do not know much about these weapons or their various loads both black powder and smokeless. i will slug the barrel but it will be awhile before i load ammo for it. just really want to proceed carefully and not damage or destroy a very fine historical weapon. by the way the markings on the barrel and cylinder bv bp and np i reckon to be for the last 2 bp is black powder and np nitro powder which is smokless and what is bv? and do i have the others correct.john

[Oyeboten]

well this 1892 webley is the only webley i have ever owned and i can see from all the posts i certainally do not know much about these weapons or their various loads both black powder and smokeless. i will slug the barrel but it will be awhile before i load ammo for it. just really want to proceed carefully and not damage or destroy a very fine historical weapon. by the way the markings on the barrel and cylinder bv bp and np i reckon to be for the last 2 bp is black powder and np nitro powder which is smokless and what is bv? and do i have the others correct.john


How long is the Cylinder on your Webley?

And, can you maybe find a friend or neighbor who has a Digital Camera, to get some nice images of it posted?

I know I for one would like to see it..! And I am sure, others here would also!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

If the BV mark is surmounted by a crown in the same style as the other proofmarks, as shown in this web page, it is the Birmingham view mark. This made sense with shotgun barrels, when expert examination before proof testing could save a gunmaker a lot of wasted labour. It wasn't compulsory as the proof mark was and is, on any gun offered for sale. So its usefulness for revolvers is harder to understand. Wild guess, but maybe gunmakers had insurance for losses in proof, and getting the view mark was a condition.

[ehsa]

the 1892 webley cylinder length is 1.568. i just slugged the bore and i use a round ball that i shoot in my .44 cap and ball revolvers. it is a 0.4590 ball and was greased with frog lube. it measured on my mitutoyo at 0.4535. i havent gotten anyone for the picture taking yet but i will endeavor to get that done but it may take awhile.i live in the sticks with few neighbors many like me not too savy with computers.but we will work on it.oh and i also checked with same size ball by removing the cylinder and dropping the ball in the chamber.it fell to the end of the cylinder and stuck with half of it projecting out. a light tap with a dowell rod and it dropped right out.john

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I have been dipping into Geoffrey Boothroyd's "The Handgun" (a very detailed history I can recommend very strongly, immortalised by the author's advice to Ian Fleming being the reason Q in the movies is Major Boothroyd.) He tells us there were three Webley-Wilkinson models, which he termed the Wilkinson-Webley. (That might be important if you search for information.) The 1892 had that distinctive straight rib from topstrap to front sight (see my Spirlet, above), but the 1905 and 1911 had Webley's usual concave but slightly lower rib, as well as a thumb cylinder release and a small filler behind the trigger guard.

The 1911 went over to six-groove rifling instead of seven, and this is important for measuring a bore slug. Was that measurement land-to-land or land-to-groove? The cylinder sounds about the best compromise for centering up a .455 bullet but sizing down a .476 one.

[ehsa]

the straight rib looks like your spirlet it runs to the front sight then about 1/4 inch where it slopes down to the muzzel. i tried to measure from land to land a little bit hard to line up but the grooves are shallow. the inside of the barrel looks like it has been shot very little and there is no filler behind the trigger guard.john

[ehsa]

something else. in the trigger guard behind the trigger at the very back there is something there comming down from the back of the trigger guard that looks like a small trigger. john

[Oyeboten]

the 1892 webley cylinder length is 1.568. i just slugged the bore and i use a round ball that i shoot in my .44 cap and ball revolvers. it is a 0.4590 ball and was greased with frog lube. it measured on my mitutoyo at 0.4535. i havent gotten anyone for the picture taking yet but i will endeavor to get that done but it may take awhile.i live in the sticks with few neighbors many like me not too savy with computers.but we will work on it.oh and i also checked with same size ball by removing the cylinder and dropping the ball in the chamber.it fell to the end of the cylinder and stuck with half of it projecting out. a light tap with a dowell rod and it dropped right out.john

When checking the Cylinder Bores, did you use the Ball you had 'Slugged'? Or a fresh .459 Ball?

You have chambered ( if not fired, ) a usual .45 Colt Cartridge? And, it's over all length did not prevent your Cylinder from rotating?

( .45 Colt OAL usually being about 1.6 inches, so...given the head space or Rim thickness, it sounds like it's Bullet would not protrude out of the front of the Cylinder ).

[ehsa]

When checking the Cylinder Bores, did you use the Ball you had 'Slugged'? Or a fresh .459 Ball?

You have chambered ( if not fired, ) a usual .45 Colt Cartridge? And, it's over all length did not prevent your Cylinder from rotating?

( .45 Colt OAL usually being about 1.6 inches, so...given the head space or Rim thickness, it sounds like it's Bullet would not protrude out of the front of the Cylinder ).
the rims of 45 colt ammo fit with no alteration needed. i have not fired any ammo thru this revolver as i worried i would damage or destroy the weapon.the 45 ammo i tried was georgia arms 45 colt with 230 grain jacketed bullet rated at 900 fps.also winchester and ultra max cowbow 45 colt loads with 250 lead bullets.the georgia arms ammo fit with no problem.i went out in the yard and cocked the hammer to rotate the cylinder thru all the chambers with no stoppage with the georgia ammo. the cowboy loads would sometimes stop the cylinder from turning. it seems even the georgia bullet are marginal at best. never the less with deeper seating of the bullets they would all work but i do not think it would be safe.also i did use the same ball so tomorrow i will reslug the barrel.john

[w30wcf]

The Winchester cowboy ammo is rated at 750 f.p.s. which is ballistically the same as the .45 Webley. The Ultramax is rated at 800 f.p.s. so, likely the pressure is a bit higher but still below the SAAMI max of 13000 for the 45 Colt.

The original smokeless velocity was around 850 f.p.s.

It could be that the variations in rim thickness might be causing the cylinder not to turn.

w30wcf

[Oyeboten]

the rims of 45 colt ammo fit with no alteration needed. i have not fired any ammo thru this revolver as i worried i would damage or destroy the weapon.the 45 ammo i tried was georgia arms 45 colt with 230 grain jacketed bullet rated at 900 fps.also winchester and ultra max cowbow 45 colt loads with 250 lead bullets.the georgia arms ammo fit with no problem.i went out in the yard and cocked the hammer to rotate the cylinder thru all the chambers with no stoppage with the georgia ammo. the cowboy loads would sometimes stop the cylinder from turning. it seems even the georgia bullet are marginal at best. never the less with deeper seating of the bullets they would all work but i do not think it would be safe.also i did use the same ball so tomorrow i will reslug the barrel.john


That exercise will also help you decide what brand of .45 Colt Brass to get for doing your own Loadings.

'Starline' is probably fine also, Brass wise.

There are also 'Trailboss' loads for .45 Colt, which would likely be entirely safe and sane for your Webley, and you could do a few 'googles' on that to find out more.

Trailboss is made to be used in ertwhile Black Powder Cartridges, and is fairly weak propellant compared to many 'Smokelss' kinds, and people like it for it being bulky and easy to safely load to gentle recoil and performance, so, it could likely be loaded in .45 Colt to be right on the money with the original BP Performance and pressure of the .455 Webley Cartridge...and I expect it actually develops lower pressure than a good grade of BP.

So, it might make for some pleasant 'Plinking' andpleasure Shooting Loads, with super easy clean up and no worries about pressure issues.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

something else. in the trigger guard behind the trigger at the very back there is something there comming down from the back of the trigger guard that looks like a small trigger. john

That is normal. It in effect is a kind of tiny auxiliary trigger, or sear, for single action. The main trigger acts upon it, and the top of the main trigger acts on the pawl in the front of the hammer for double action. It is a good system, for that sear is lighter and has about the same weight on each side of its pivot, and so is less likely to jar off if dropped. There is no undercut notch to break off, as it can in Colts etc., and they get out of the compromise between single and double action form for the same point on the hammer. I believe only the Webley-Wilkinson and the earlier solid-frame Webleys (like most other people's) had it. Here it is on the French M1873 ordnance revolver.

For your only Webley, you chose about the best of the lot.

[ehsa]

That exercise will also help you decide what brand of .45 Colt Brass to get for doing your own Loadings.

'Starline' is probably fine also, Brass wise.

There are also 'Trailboss' loads for .45 Colt, which would likely be entirely safe and sane for your Webley, and you could do a few 'googles' on that to find out more.

Trailboss is made to be used in ertwhile Black Powder Cartridges, and is fairly weak propellant compared to many 'Smokelss' kinds, and people like it for it being bulky and easy to safely load to gentle recoil and performance, so, it could likely be loaded in .45 Colt to be right on the money with the original BP Performance and pressure of the .455 Webley Cartridge...and I expect it actually develops lower pressure than a good grade of BP.

So, it might make for some pleasant 'Plinking' andpleasure Shooting Loads, with super easy clean up and no worries about pressure issues.
thank you for the tip about trail boss. for those 45 colt cases do the bullets need to be seated down on the trail boss powder and should i use a card wad to protect the base of the bullet.john

[w30wcf]

John,
I have used Trailboss in the .45 Colt and it works well. The bullet should be seated to the standard length....crimped in the crimp groove. Trailboss was designed to be a bulky powder so that a case could not accidentally be double charged.

Presently my favorite .45 Colt powder for cowboy loads is Titegroup.

Hodgdon Powder has online reloading data....
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

Desperado bullets is a great source for bullets.
http://cowboybullets.com/45-Caliber_c_11.html
You can purchase 100 bullets to try. (http://cowboybullets.com/45-cal-250-grain_p_26.html)

w30wcf

[Oyeboten]

thank you for the tip about trail boss. for those 45 colt cases do the bullets need to be seated down on the trail boss powder and should i use a card wad to protect the base of the bullet.john


I think you can safely and happily throw away all those cardboard 'Wads'...they have no place really in any Revolver Cartridges, unless you are making up Shot Shells.

There is no need to protect the base of the Bullet for any Black Powder era Revolver, or for any other Revolver either...that sort of thing is only for very high velocity Cartridges...and even then, it is not necessarily needed unless striving for the last word in accuracy over long distance.

You would do best to refer to Trailboss' own Loading Tables for .45 Colt in order to determine what range of Powder Charge for what Bullet weight ( assuming a usual Lead Bullet, which is the only kind your Webley really was meant for ).

I do not believe the Trailboss Propellant fills the Case as Black Powder would, so, there is going to be some 'Loading Density', or Air Space between Propellant and Bullet Base.

Bullet would seat to normal depth as per standard Loadings for whatever Bullet is in question.

I just went to Hodgdon's Web Site, and under "Hodgdon" Propellants, I factored in a 250 Grain Lead Bullet for .45 Colt, using "Trailboss", and it provides then the figures for various Loadings/Pressures/Performance with that Bullet.

Viz

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

4 simple steps, just elect the appropriate check box for each step, and it gives you the loading Table for those factors.


Their max loading with a 250 Grain Lead Bullet, is rated to 12,700 PSI.

I epect the late 1800s Black Powder Loadings for the .455 Webley or the .45 Colt or for 44 or 45 anything Revolver, were often enough running around 13,000 to 14,000 PSI, ( particularly with some of the better "Sporting Powders' of the Day)... and,"SAAMI" for .45 Colt remains at 14,000 today...so, very friendly then.

"SAAMI" Chart

http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm

'Trailboss' is widely celebrated and used, and is a mild and very friendly Propellant, and probably ideal for any of the old BP Cartidge Arms, when one wishes to load for them for pleasure Shooting with no worries about being hard on them.

Much easier clean up also, ( one swipe with a Bronze or even Nylon Bore Brush and some light Oil, then a cloth patch ) than Black Powder tends to be ( where one uses hot Soapy Water, dries all with a hand held Hair Drier, then Oils and puts away ).

[ehsa]

I think you can safely and happily throw away all those cardboard 'Wads'...they have no place really in any Revolver Cartridges, unless you are making up Shot Shells.

There is no need to protect the base of the Bullet for any Black Powder era Revolver, or for any other Revolver either...that sort of thing is only for very high velocity Cartridges...and even then, it is not necessarily needed unless striving for the last word in accuracy over long distance.

You would do best to refer to Trailboss' own Loading Tables for .45 Colt in order to determine what range of Powder Charge for what Bullet weight ( assuming a usual Lead Bullet, which is the only kind your Webley really was meant for ).

I do not believe the Trailboss Propellant fills the Case as Black Powder would, so, there is going to be some 'Loading Density', or Air Space between Propellant and Bullet Base.

Bullet would seat to normal depth as per standard Loadings for whatever Bullet is in question.

I just went to Hodgdon's Web Site, and under "Hodgdon" Propellants, I factored in a 250 Grain Lead Bullet for .45 Colt, using "Trailboss", and it provides then the figures for various Loadings/Pressures/Performance with that Bullet.

Viz

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

4 simple steps, just elect the appropriate check box for each step, and it gives you the loading Table for those factors.


Their max loading with a 250 Grain Lead Bullet, is rated to 12,700 PSI.

I epect the late 1800s Black Powder Loadings for the .455 Webley or the .45 Colt or for 44 or 45 anything Revolver, were often enough running around 13,000 to 14,000 PSI, ( particularly with some of the better "Sporting Powders' of the Day)... and,"SAAMI" for .45 Colt remains at 14,000 today...so, very friendly then.

"SAAMI" Chart

http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm

'Trailboss' is widely celebrated and used, and is a mild and very friendly Propellant, and probably ideal for any of the old BP Cartidge Arms, when one wishes to load for them for pleasure Shooting with no worries about being hard on them.

Much easier clean up also, ( one swipe with a Bronze or even Nylon Bore Brush and some light Oil, then a cloth patch ) than Black Powder tends to be ( where one uses hot Soapy Water, dries all with a hand held Hair Drier, then Oils and puts away ).
thank you very much for all that info i will put it to use.john

[ehsa]

I think you can safely and happily throw away all those cardboard 'Wads'...they have no place really in any Revolver Cartridges, unless you are making up Shot Shells.

There is no need to protect the base of the Bullet for any Black Powder era Revolver, or for any other Revolver either...that sort of thing is only for very high velocity Cartridges...and even then, it is not necessarily needed unless striving for the last word in accuracy over long distance.

You would do best to refer to Trailboss' own Loading Tables for .45 Colt in order to determine what range of Powder Charge for what Bullet weight ( assuming a usual Lead Bullet, which is the only kind your Webley really was meant for ).

I do not believe the Trailboss Propellant fills the Case as Black Powder would, so, there is going to be some 'Loading Density', or Air Space between Propellant and Bullet Base.

Bullet would seat to normal depth as per standard Loadings for whatever Bullet is in question.

I just went to Hodgdon's Web Site, and under "Hodgdon" Propellants, I factored in a 250 Grain Lead Bullet for .45 Colt, using "Trailboss", and it provides then the figures for various Loadings/Pressures/Performance with that Bullet.

Viz

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

4 simple steps, just elect the appropriate check box for each step, and it gives you the loading Table for those factors.


Their max loading with a 250 Grain Lead Bullet, is rated to 12,700 PSI.

I epect the late 1800s Black Powder Loadings for the .455 Webley or the .45 Colt or for 44 or 45 anything Revolver, were often enough running around 13,000 to 14,000 PSI, ( particularly with some of the better "Sporting Powders' of the Day)... and,"SAAMI" for .45 Colt remains at 14,000 today...so, very friendly then.

"SAAMI" Chart

http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm

'Trailboss' is widely celebrated and used, and is a mild and very friendly Propellant, and probably ideal for any of the old BP Cartidge Arms, when one wishes to load for them for pleasure Shooting with no worries about being hard on them.

Much easier clean up also, ( one swipe with a Bronze or even Nylon Bore Brush and some light Oil, then a cloth patch ) than Black Powder tends to be ( where one uses hot Soapy Water, dries all with a hand held Hair Drier, then Oils and puts away ). thanks and a question is the .454 bullet right for this gun.groove diameter was 0.4535 as best as i could measure.it has 7 grooves and lands.john

[Ballistics in Scotland]

thanks and a question is the .454 bullet right for this gun.groove diameter was 0.4535 as best as i could measure.it has 7 grooves and lands.john

Yes, that seems fine. The 7 grooves (if, and it is a big if with early firearms, the rule about the number of grooves in invariable) would make it an 1892 or 1905 model, not a 1911. There was a period of around a year when a 1905 could have had the 1904 proofmarks from new, but the straight rib sounds like an 1892. It could be that 1892 barrels lingered in stock, or were available as an option for individuals or dealers who thought they looked better. I know I do.

The Army and Navy Cooperative Society catalogue of 1907, the fattest book I possess, doesn't include a Webley-Wilkinson, probably because as general outfitters for the military and empire-builders they were Wilkinson's competitor. They do include a WS New Army model which is the only Webley the line drawing (though not the text) describes as .455/.476. This one is close to identical to the ordinary Army model with lowered rib they offer, except that it has a square butt and the Army (possibly MkIII but more likely the almost identical MkIV at the time) has a round butt. Both have 6in. barrels, but the New Army is cheaper (£4 11 shilling instead of £5 5 shillings!) and weighs 2lb. 5oz. instead of 2lb. 8 oz. Both cost and weight would be explained by its having dropped the sideplate construction of the MkII and IV, just ahead of the same change in the later Webleys.

Incidentally Webley reintroduced that sideplate in the improved .38 they designed for the government in the 30s, which is actually an extremely good military pistol, when well made, for the non-pistol shooting specialist. It eliminated the transverse slots in the rear of the cylinder, and caught up (again) with the French requirement of the 1870s for all the lock parts to be examined, cleaned and oiled without any coming out.

At first the government produced it at its own factory as the Enfield No2 revolver - to the annoyance of Webley, who assumed they would get the contract. At that stage it was well made. But amid a flood of other urgent contracts, the work was contracted out to firms who had never made firearms before. Being short of people like Mr. Egginton...

176678


...they employed unskilled or differently skilled labour, and Webley may have passed on only the sort of dimensional drawings people like Mr. Egginton had enabled them to work with. The result was a miserably bad pistol. The tale told was that they made the late ones double-action only to eliminate the hammer spur which caught inside vehicles. But I think the reason was that the contractors couldn't achieve a good single-action trigger pull.

Webley later sued them for £2250 development costs, lost, and the government paid them £1250, probably on the basis that they had made a fortune with their own ordinary MkIV .38 during the recent war, when Enfield No2 production hadn't kept up, and soldiers didn't like it.

[ehsa]

Yes, that seems fine. The 7 grooves (if, and it is a big if with early firearms, the rule about the number of grooves in invariable) would make it an 1892 or 1905 model, not a 1911. There was a period of around a year when a 1905 could have had the 1904 proofmarks from new, but the straight rib sounds like an 1892. It could be that 1892 barrels lingered in stock, or were available as an option for individuals or dealers who thought they looked better. I know I do.

The Army and Navy Cooperative Society catalogue of 1907, the fattest book I possess, doesn't include a Webley-Wilkinson, probably because as general outfitters for the military and empire-builders they were Wilkinson's competitor. They do include a WS New Army model which is the only Webley the line drawing (though not the text) describes as .455/.476. This one is close to identical to the ordinary Army model with lowered rib they offer, except that it has a square butt and the Army (possibly MkIII but more likely the almost identical MkIV at the time) has a round butt. Both have 6in. barrels, but the New Army is cheaper (£4 11 shilling instead of £5 5 shillings!) and weighs 2lb. 5oz. instead of 2lb. 8 oz. Both cost and weight would be explained by its having dropped the sideplate construction of the MkII and IV, just ahead of the same change in the later Webleys.

Incidentally Webley reintroduced that sideplate in the improved .38 they designed for the government in the 30s, which is actually an extremely good military pistol, when well made, for the non-pistol shooting specialist. It eliminated the transverse slots in the rear of the cylinder, and caught up (again) with the French requirement of the 1870s for all the lock parts to be examined, cleaned and oiled without any coming out.

At first the government produced it at its own factory as the Enfield No2 revolver - to the annoyance of Webley, who assumed they would get the contract. At that stage it was well made. But amid a flood of other urgent contracts, the work was contracted out to firms who had never made firearms before. Being short of people like Mr. Egginton...

176678


...they employed unskilled or differently skilled labour, and Webley may have passed on only the sort of dimensional drawings people like Mr. Egginton had enabled them to work with. The result was a miserably bad pistol. The tale told was that they made the late ones double-action only to eliminate the hammer spur which caught inside vehicles. But I think the reason was that the contractors couldn't achieve a good single-action trigger pull.

Webley later sued them for £2250 development costs, lost, and the government paid them £1250, probably on the basis that they had made a fortune with their own ordinary MkIV .38 during the recent war, when Enfield No2 production hadn't kept up, and soldiers didn't like it.i appreciate your good help and information.i ordered some bullets to try as recommended by forum member w30wcf a soft 250 grain .454 bullet at 8-9 brinnel. also i will try a low charge of trailboss to start mabey 3.8-4.0 grains. hopefully next week. a question looking at the revolver this morning of course the firing pin is retracted into the frame but when i push it forward with my thumb it still doesnt project thru the frame. to test it i dropped a lead pencil down the barrel eraser first.the gun was cocked and i pulled the trigger and the pencil was shot out of the barrel but with no great force.if i do that with my colt 45acp it will fly half way across the room.so i am hoping it is hitting hard enough.i am hoping my wife can mabey take some photos as she has a smart phone but we will see how that goes.john

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Do you mean pushing the hammer with the trigger pulled? The 1911 doesn't have to let a cylinder rotate, so it doesn't have to withdraw the firing-pin from the primer and prevent it from reaching the primer until the trigger is again in the fired position, as modern or nearly-modern revolvers do. The 1911 firing-pin is small and floating, so it is hurled forward at high velocity, perhaps higher than a revolver hammer.

I think that is enough to describe what you have described, and popping a primed but unloaded case should prove it. I suppose there is a remote chance that someone has filed down the front of the firing-pin if the revolver was used as a den ornament. If this is the case the tip could be built up with weld and the hammer rehardened, or a new pin could be made and silver soldered or threaded into a drilled hole.

[Oyeboten]

thanks and a question is the .454 bullet right for this gun.groove diameter was 0.4535 as best as i could measure.it has 7 grooves and lands.john

That should be fine.

And, Pure Lead I think would be ideal, and or, the softer ( or the lower the BR rating, ) the better.

Do you have any means of measuring the diameter of your Cylinder Bores?

One can usually just press a pure Lead Round Ball of slightly larger size, down in to the front of a Chamber, then push it out again from the rear, and, measure it fairly easily with a Micrometer or Verneer Caliper.

Although it is not always easy to obtain only a few round Balls of appropriate size, to do this, since one usually has to buy a whole box of them.

[ehsa]

Do you mean pushing the hammer with the trigger pulled? The 1911 doesn't have to let a cylinder rotate, so it doesn't have to withdraw the firing-pin from the primer and prevent it from reaching the primer until the trigger is again in the fired position, as modern or nearly-modern revolvers do. The 1911 firing-pin is small and floating, so it is hurled forward at high velocity, perhaps higher than a revolver hammer.

I think that is enough to describe what you have described, and popping a primed but unloaded case should prove it. I suppose there is a remote chance that someone has filed down the front of the firing-pin if the revolver was used as a den ornament. If this is the case the tip could be built up with weld and the hammer rehardened, or a new pin could be made and silver soldered or threaded into a drilled hole. i just did what you ask i cocked the hammer pulled the trigger and lowered the hammer then pushed on it and am delighted to say the firing pin projected out there like it should.before i didnt hold the trigger back.thank you so much.john

[ehsa]

That should be fine.

And, Pure Lead I think would be ideal, and or, the softer ( or the lower the BR rating, ) the better.

Do you have any means of measuring the diameter of your Cylinder Bores?

One can usually just press a pure Lead Round Ball of slightly larger size, down in to the front of a Chamber, then push it out again from the rear, and, measure it fairly easily with a Micrometer or Verneer Caliper.

Although it is not always easy to obtain only a few round Balls of appropriate size, to do this, since one usually has to buy a whole box of them.
i have the lead balls for my 44 cap and ball revolvers they measure 0.4590 and are what i used to slug the bore. i had dropped them in the cylinder and they fall through and stick at the end of the cylinder with half the ball hanging out. just a tap and they fall out. i didnt measure them at that point though.i have some 50 cal muzzle loading balls somewhere and i believe they measure 0.490. so i will get the 44 balls and measure one here in l little bit.john

[ehsa]

i got a ball which measured 0.4585 and dropped it thru the cylinder.sticks out about half way. but a light tap with a dowel rod and it fell out.so little pressure to do this that the measurement did not change at all.john

[Wayne Smith]

Are you in north western NC? If so, PM Blammer - he is just outside Ashville (by the Airport) and does great photography. Get together with him and you will have photos to post.

[ehsa]

Are you in north western NC? If so, PM Blammer - he is just outside Ashville (by the Airport) and does great photography. Get together with him and you will have photos to post.am some miles to the west perhaps an hour and 15 min away thanks for the tip.john

[w30wcf]

ehsa,
If the throats in the cylinders are .458" there will be some blowby using a bullet smaller than that. The softer Desperado bullets may work aok but you might still get some leading in the forcing cone. I guess that's why the Brits used hollow base bullets that would expand out to fill and seal in the oversized throats.

An .06" poly disc under the bullet would pretty much eliminate any blowby and resultant throat leading .

Ballistics In Scotland,
Great info as usual.:D

w30wcf

[Ballistics in Scotland]

ehsa,
If the throats in the cylinders are .458" there will be some blowby using a bullet smaller than that. The softer Desperado bullets may work aok but you might still get some leading in the forcing cone. I guess that's why the Brits used hollow base bullets that would expand out to fill and seal in the oversized throats.

An .06" poly disc under the bullet would pretty much eliminate any blowby and resultant throat leading .

Ballistics In Scotland,
Great info as usual.:D

w30wcf

Thank you for that kind remark. That poly disc would have the same benefit as well-fitting card, and the same possible problem if it was combined with a hollow base bullet. The low-velocity Webley will cope with soft lead bullets better than most revolvers, and as long as it is soft, there is every chance that a flat-based bullet will expand to seal the throat.

It sounds like it is all systems go for the OP.

[w30wcf]

Ballistics In Scotland,
Unfortunately, in my limited experience, soft slugs bump up ok with b.p. but not as well with smokeless, with the exception of Trailboss. More on that later.

I prefer the poly disc because it is elastic in that it will be reduced in size in the case, but when the pressure is applied it will quickly adapt to the dimension of the throat / groove, putting pressure against the circumference, sealing the powder gases behind. About 15 years ago I acquired an original '73 Winchester .44 W.C.F. that turned out to have a very oversized barrel (.435" avg. groove diameter). I had a supply of .428" cast bullets and was trying to fiqure out how best to use them. I hit upon the idea of using a .06" thick poly wad, and, to my surprise, it worked extremely well allowing the .007" undersized cast bullet to transverse the barrel, keeping the powder gases behind and provided accurate shooting.

Back to the .455...

Buffalo Arms offers the original hollow base bullet in 20/1 alloy, so that could be an option as well (no disc needed).

http://www.buffaloarms.com/ThumbnailHandler.ashx?MediaID=90601&size=270&MediaURL=

http://www.buffaloarms.com/455_Webley_Bullets_it-157322.aspx?CAT=4135

Now back to Trailboss. A couple of years ago, I tested some .45 Colt factory ammunition in my Marlin Cowboy Rifle out of curiosity to see how accurate the different brands were. Hornady was one of the brands tested. It shot well but after 10 rounds, there was leading building up in the throat. I pulled a couple of bullets and found that the .454" bullet (7 BHN) had been reduced closer to .450" during the seating process, with the base of the bullet checking in at closer to .446".

I had seen a test where Trailboss was tested in a .45-70 and the pressure spike was actually a bit quicker than b.p., so I decided to reload with 5.8/Trailboss and the undersized 7 BHN bullets. The outcome was that there was no more throat leading and good accuracy was maintained, proof that Trailboss was bumping up the bullets to fill the throat and thus not permitting the powder gases to get by.

w30wcf

[Oyeboten]

Thank you for that kind remark. That poly disc would have the same benefit as well-fitting card, and the same possible problem if it was combined with a hollow base bullet. The low-velocity Webley will cope with soft lead bullets better than most revolvers, and as long as it is soft, there is every chance that a flat-based bullet will expand to seal the throat.

It sounds like it is all systems go for the OP.

Definitely the disparity between the Cylinder Bore diameters and the Barrel Bore diameter is less than ideal...and with light ( or less than full ) charges, even a pure Lead Bullet might not upset enough to alleviate early 'Blow By', before having to squeeze down in the Forcing Cone.

[w30wcf]

Before there were "Cowboy" loads that use flat based bullets, .45 Colt factory ammunition was loaded with hollow based bullets as were other pistol calibers.... namely .38's and .44's. That was done to give the best results in guns with less than ideal tolerances between the cylinder throats and barrels.

The standard .45 Colt (not Cowboy) as offered by Winchester still uses hollow based bullets as the pic on the box indicates. Velocity 860 f.p.s.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2900342954/winchester-super-x-ammunition-45-colt-long-colt-255-grain-lead-round-nose.

At one time they offered the bullet as a component but, unfortunately they haven't been available for quite some time now.
Note the .456" bullet diameter. That was the original diameter.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/IMG_0661.jpg

w30wcf

[ehsa]

i am thinking of reslugging my cylinder and bore on this 1892 webley as all i had available were round balls for the .44 cap and ball revolver which do not give much bearing surface due to their shape. i still do not have anything except i did receive those .454 bullets yesterday from desperado cowboy bullets. i dropped one thru the cylinder and it fell thru with only the base of the bullet hanging up and i just pulled it out with my fingers. i wonder if it would be good if a lead bullet that was a press thru fit in the cylinder would be a good idea.i mean one you that is snug pushing it thru.john

[ehsa]

gentleman.my wife took some photos of the wilkinson webley 1892 with her phone then emailed them to me.my son who live 5 hours from me put them in a link which is http://imgur.com/a/vjVrU that last v and u on the end may be capital letters. anyway hope this works. the barrel smudges are oil. john

[PS Paul]

Wow! What a gorgeous specimen!!!

[ehsa]

Wow! What a gorgeous specimen!!! sorry i meant to put a note with the pictures that the gun has been reblued sorry for that lapse in my thinking.john

[Oyeboten]

Before there were "Cowboy" loads that use flat based bullets, .45 Colt factory ammunition was loaded with hollow based bullets as were other pistol calibers.... namely .38's and .44's. That was done to give the best results in guns with less than ideal tolerances between the cylinder throats and barrels.

The standard .45 Colt (not Cowboy) as offered by Winchester still uses hollow based bullets as the pic on the box indicates. Velocity 860 f.p.s.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2900342954/winchester-super-x-ammunition-45-colt-long-colt-255-grain-lead-round-nose.

At one time they offered the bullet as a component but, unfortunately they haven't been available for quite some time now.
Note the .456" bullet diameter. That was the original diameter.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/IMG_0661.jpg

w30wcf


I sure wish we could by those somewhere!

I need for Santa to bring me a nice smaller old time Machine Shop so I can start making my own Swaging Dies I think...

[Oyeboten]

gentleman.my wife took some photos of the wilkinson webley 1892 with her phone then emailed them to me.my son who live 5 hours from me put them in a link which is http://imgur.com/a/vjVrU that last v and u on the end may be capital letters. anyway hope this works. the barrel smudges are oil. john

Very handsome old Revolver!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, it is a beautiful specimen, clearly unabused, and the wood doesn't show wear or shrinkage. I wouldn't consider the reblue as reducing its value.

I've said how small details of style don't necessarily date these revolvers precisely. I think it is basically an 1892, but late enough to have the nitro proof, which looks like it was done at the same time as the other proofmarks. Boothroyd confirms that the HW in a star was the mark of Wilkingson. I am sure the engraved word has an A, making it "late 4th Hussars". I have seen the like elsewhere.and although the end of the word isn't quite clear, it looks like the A in "Hussars" is in the same flat-topped style. All right, you can't have Churchill's revolver, but this one almost certainly belonged to someone who knew him.

The trigger-guard is interesting. Is it bright steel or nickel plated, and is the hammer the same? Either would be quite sensible for the parts that are handled the most, in a hot climate. Even bare steel can be polished as much as you like. It is possible that if it is a 1905 and this trigger-guard was a special order item, it may have come without the fillet (which I have never seen) which covers the 1905 guard screw.

[w30wcf]

i am thinking of reslugging my cylinder and bore on this 1892 webley as all i had available were round balls for the .44 cap and ball revolver which do not give much bearing surface due to their shape. i still do not have anything except i did receive those .454 bullets yesterday from desperado cowboy bullets. i dropped one thru the cylinder and it fell thru with only the base of the bullet hanging up and i just pulled it out with my fingers. i wonder if it would be good if a lead bullet that was a press thru fit in the cylinder would be a good idea.i mean one you that is snug pushing it thru.john

ehsa,
I would certainly give the Trailboss loads first with those softer Desperado bullets. Seems like they are close to the throat diameter. Tests have been done that have shown that cast bullets are that are no more than .001" under throat diameter work pretty much as well as those at throat diameter.

The issue with larger bullets is that will they chamber accept a cartridge with larger diameter bullets(?), and if so, will the reloading dies (specifically the mouth expander) allow the use of larger diameter bullets(?).

There is a somewhat easy way of bumping up bullets. Have someone make an aluminum rod to fit a fired annealed case. I say annealed because that will fit the closest to the chamber. Also when the rod is made, have the diameter of the upper portion .002"-.003" larger than the target bullet diameter. Place the case and the bullet into the seating die backed out not to crimp. Adjust the seating stem to touch the bullet then turn it in 1/4 turn, and seat. Keep adjusting until the required diameter is reached.

Here is sectioned pic of .45-70 case I used to bump up some undersized bullets.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/45-70bumpingcase.jpg

As I said though, give the Trailboss loads a try, that may be all you need.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Very Nice!:D A wonderful example of an historic firearm!

Ballistics In Scotland, Thank you for your very informative post.

[ehsa]

Yes, it is a beautiful specimen, clearly unabused, and the wood doesn't show wear or shrinkage. I wouldn't consider the reblue as reducing its value.

I've said how small details of style don't necessarily date these revolvers precisely. I think it is basically an 1892, but late enough to have the nitro proof, which looks like it was done at the same time as the other proofmarks. Boothroyd confirms that the HW in a star was the mark of Wilkingson. I am sure the engraved word has an A, making it "late 4th Hussars". I have seen the like elsewhere.and although the end of the word isn't quite clear, it looks like the A in "Hussars" is in the same flat-topped style. All right, you can't have Churchill's revolver, but this one almost certainly belonged to someone who knew him.

The trigger-guard is interesting. Is it bright steel or nickel plated, and is the hammer the same? Either would be quite sensible for the parts that are handled the most, in a hot climate. Even bare steel can be polished as much as you like. It is possible that if it is a 1905 and this trigger-guard was a special order item, it may have come without the fillet (which I have never seen) which covers the 1905 guard screw. in trying to remember i think that both the trigger guard and hammer were i think done in chrome. the trigger guard was originally blue i believe and the hammer polished steel or nickel. i have owned the revolver 9 or 10 years and just not 100% positive about it. i kept a journal for over 30 years but i may have stopped writing by that time.thank you very much for your insight and good evaluation of the revolver. i must admit i wish i knew who N.B.E. was, do you think this was a retirement piece?thank you john

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It could well have been a presentation gift, most likely on retirement. Or the owner might have had it engraved out of nostalgia. There isn't room for "Late" to have been inserted after the rest. N isn't a common initial, so almost certainly if you can find a regimental muster roll for a year when he served, you've got him. As I said, the regimental museum would probably have them, or know where they have been placed. He would probably be a officer, but the unwritten law is that a regimental sergeant-major towered above mere lieutenants, and they were quite well paid. There is an account of a sergeant-major doing great execution in one of the cavalry skirmishes of 1914, with his own pair of Webley .455 automatics.

Here is a document drawn up at a review in Aldershot, a training area in the UK, in 1895. I don't know if it is complete, but it does suggest that NBE was out of the army by that time.

http://shadowsoftime.co.nz/P&M1864.html

Here is some information on muster rolls held in the National Archives at Kew - only on paper I think, but there are probably research firms which do regular business there, and could supply a copy at a price:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-muster-rolls-pay-lists-1730-1898/

An officer would certainly be in the Army List if you can find the right year, but a warrant officer such as a sergeant-major, who receives a warrant from the army rather than a commission from the sovereign, probably wouldn't be. Most for that period are listed by rank and date of last promotion, so an individual is hard to find. The first of these is a website on which examples can be seen in a rather confusing online form, and the second is a firm from which you can buy copies on CD.

https://archive.org/details/nlsarmylists

https://genealogysupplies.com/product/Military-and-Naval-Records/

Initials and unit aren't enough for www.forces-war-records.co.uk/ (http://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/namesearch/?FirstName=N&Surname=Ed&RecordType=VictorianConflicts&RecordDateStartYear=1857&RecordDateEndYear=1899) . That was how I traced the man who was given my first edition of Lewis Carrol's "Through the Looking-Glass" in 1875 (cheap because the bookstore didn't recognise the publisher's own morocco binding), and took it to South Africa in 1899 (Only in the British Army!) I believe he is the same officer who ended the First World War as a lieutenant-colonel of garrison artillery, which means heavies. It isn't a gun, but has probably been places and seen things like yours.

[ehsa]

It could well have been a presentation gift, most likely on retirement. Or the owner might have had it engraved out of nostalgia. There isn't room for "Late" to have been inserted after the rest. N isn't a common initial, so almost certainly if you can find a regimental muster roll for a year when he served, you've got him. As I said, the regimental museum would probably have them, or know where they have been placed. He would probably be a officer, but the unwritten law is that a regimental sergeant-major towered above mere lieutenants, and they were quite well paid. There is an account of a sergeant-major doing great execution in one of the cavalry skirmishes of 1914, with his own pair of Webley .455 automatics.

Here is a document drawn up at a review in Aldershot, a training area in the UK, in 1895. I don't know if it is complete, but it does suggest that NBE was out of the army by that time.

http://shadowsoftime.co.nz/P&M1864.html

Here is some information on muster rolls held in the National Archives at Kew - only on paper I think, but there are probably research firms which do regular business there, and could supply a copy at a price:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-muster-rolls-pay-lists-1730-1898/

An officer would certainly be in the Army List if you can find the right year, but a warrant officer such as a sergeant-major, who receives a warrant from the army rather than a commission from the sovereign, probably wouldn't be. Most for that period are listed by rank and date of last promotion, so an individual is hard to find. The first of these is a website on which examples can be seen in a rather confusing online form, and the second is a firm from which you can buy copies on CD.

https://archive.org/details/nlsarmylists

https://genealogysupplies.com/product/Military-and-Naval-Records/

Initials and unit aren't enough for www.forces-war-records.co.uk/ (http://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/namesearch/?FirstName=N&Surname=Ed&RecordType=VictorianConflicts&RecordDateStartYear=1857&RecordDateEndYear=1899) . That was how I traced the man who was given my first edition of Lewis Carrol's "Through the Looking-Glass" in 1875 (cheap because the bookstore didn't recognise the publisher's own morocco binding), and took it to South Africa in 1899 (Only in the British Army!) I believe he is the same officer who ended the First World War as a lieutenant-colonel of garrison artillery, which means heavies. It isn't a gun, but has probably been places and seen things like yours.thank you for the very good information.john

[Chill Wills]

I think the Lyman 457 195 hollow base (with pin) is the mold to look for. Or hope for....
It casts a 225grain +/- bullet

[Ballistics in Scotland]

There is a whole genre of British children's jokes which begin "I have good news and bad news". Here is a website which can supply a considerable amount of information on Webley-Wilkingson and Webley revolvers, sometimes extending to the purchaser's name. But it looks as if the revolver about which we have been talking most, would be listed in a missing volume.

http://www.armsresearch.co.uk/Wilkinson%20Firearms/Wilkinson%20Firearms.html

[ehsa]

There is a whole genre of British children's jokes which begin "I have good news and bad news". Here is a website which can supply a considerable amount of information on Webley-Wilkingson and Webley revolvers, sometimes extending to the purchaser's name. But it looks as if the revolver about which we have been talking most, would be listed in a missing volume.

http://www.armsresearch.co.uk/Wilkinson%20Firearms/Wilkinson%20Firearms.html thank you for the link i am looking it over and the book with my serial number is indeed missing.john

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Well I've got mine, arrived in the UK without the slightest legal or administrative difficulty from Track of the Wolf:

180978

I don't believe it is the sort of Webley anyone would call a gorgeous specimen, and certainly not the kind anybody is likely to have carried into battle, stirrup to stirrup with Winston. It is a .32 rimfire, and more the kind a farmer might take to market if he was collecting payment in cash. It is marked "Webley's Patent" with no address, and was probably retailed by someone else. But it has an interesting place in Webley's history.

They had made good cap and ball revolvers, but this is among the first of their cartridge revolvers. They had already made a licensed copy of the bottom-break Smith and Wesson No2, a favourite of Napoleon III, which may account for their starting out in the belief that a .32 rimfire could be fairly large. Oddly enough it is a contemporary of their enormous .577 revolvers, which also had the ratchet cylinder stops (less weakening than notches) and no extractor of any kind. It didn't last long on the market, as it was pretty well wiped out by the Bulldog model, rather more pocketable and fitted with the usual swivelled ejector rod. Centrefires took over from rimfires to a large extent - urgently with the .44s, since their reliability declines with size, less so with a .32, but the owner of this kind of revolver was unlikely to fire it enough for cheapness of ammunition to matter.

Track priced it as a rather uncollectible small foreign revolver. It is failing to fire on single action, but that has got to be easier to fix than the Spirlet. It will need an axis pin locking spring made as well, but I have a picture in Bruce and Reinhart's book. The hole for it is filled with a roll of cloth, which makes it a "sleeper" if ever there was.

Another I could own with no formality whatever is the WP model, smaller even than the ordinary pocket top break Webleys, in the .320 version but not the .32S&W. That is a 20th century revolver, though, and more difficult to get out of the United States nowadays.

[Outpost75]

I think the Lyman 457 195 hollow base (with pin) is the mold to look for. Or hope for....
It casts a 225grain +/- bullet

Accurate has several "Modern Webley" designs which might also be considered. While Tom doesn't produce a hollow-based mold, if you want to order a mold in nose pour to have the mold modified and base pins outsourced by Erik at www.hollowpointmold.com (http://www.hollowpointmold.com), this can be done if you specify on your order. You can also specify bullet diameter and alloy. The cylinder throats on my Kirst conversion cylinder are .453" and the chamber throats in the cylinder on my Webley MkVI vary considerably and have deep pitting which was revealed by DougGuy after removing the years of accumulated leading and impacted fouling. Here is a photo Doug took after the first initial ream, just enough to uniform the chambers to the point where all will accept a .452 gage pin all the way through. It looks pretty UGLY, but shooting should be improved simply by making the throats uniform and cleaning them up, hopefully enough to get clean throat entrances so there is no longer a portal for gases to leak past the bullet. Residual pitting and tool marks beyond the entrance to the throats shouldn't hurt appreciably IF the bullet is able to achieve a good gas seal on initial shot-start. At least that is the plan. I expect to clean up acceptably, though not perfectly, he's going to need to get to .455+/-

180992

These are the bullets I am currently experimenting with in my Webley Mk VI, my Ruger Old Army with Kirst cartridge conversion in .45 ACP (which also works splendidly with .455s!) and a break-open H&R .45 ACP built by John Taylor, in which the barrel was cut with a rim seat and custom ejector which works equally well with either rimless .45 ACP or rimmed .455 Mk II or Mk I brass.



180986180987180988180989

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That cylinder looks like he has bored rather than reamed. Or perhaps he has a tool short enough to fit in the forcing cone and be guided by the barrel. Either could be a good way of doing it, but there would be no harm in throats a shade over groove diameter, if it removes those toolmarks.

[Outpost75]

Update on progress of my Webley cylinder from Doug Phillips:

"Here are the .4555" throats, and chambers, all polished up with an 800 grit ball hone. A .4555' pin gage goes smoothly and evenly in all the throats, a .456" won't go in any of them. I am quite satisfied with this endeavor, and for sure want to know how well it shoots... I stopped here because I do not want to polish out the pitting to the point where it is too shallow to hold lube, powder residue, and make a seal. I figure it is better to leave it where the residue from firing will have a good chance at sealing.

I could go to .4565" and remove another 80% of what pitting you see that still remains, but I feel the gains in accuracy are going to be less now that we have gotten this far, any improvement from .4555" to .4565" will be minimal at best, although there still would be an improvement. How much, and could it be noticed in the groups? Hard to say. Up to you. I am thinking that at the very worst, if you have 2 chambers that are not shooting to the same point of impact as the others, two things can happen. You could mark them with empty 45 ACP brass that would remain in the chambers, or you could send the cylinder back and see what taking the throats to .4565" does for it.

My thoughts for the best scenario are that you fire the gun enough times to fill in the remaining pits, and determine that it shoots pretty dang good and just roll with it. So I can blue the chambers as you see them here and send it on back and take it from there. I think it will not waste any time in making it's own statement. You should see a tremendous improvement right away. For once, the caliber REALLY IS what the boolits are, and you now truly have a 455 Webley!"

181039

Three out of the six chambers cleaned up really well.

The others still have some pitting at .4555, but I agree with Doug not to go any larger unless shooting results indicate otherwise. Plan is to shoot it now and see how it plays.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Update on progress of my Webley cylinder from Doug Phillips:

"Here are the .4555" throats, and chambers, all polished up with an 800 grit ball hone. A .4555' pin gage goes smoothly and evenly in all the throats, a .456" won't go in any of them. I am quite satisfied with this endeavor, and for sure want to know how well it shoots... I stopped here because I do not want to polish out the pitting to the point where it is too shallow to hold lube, powder residue, and make a seal. I figure it is better to leave it where the residue from firing will have a good chance at sealing.

I could go to .4565" and remove another 80% of what pitting you see that still remains, but I feel the gains in accuracy are going to be less now that we have gotten this far, any improvement from .4555" to .4565" will be minimal at best, although there still would be an improvement. How much, and could it be noticed in the groups? Hard to say. Up to you. I am thinking that at the very worst, if you have 2 chambers that are not shooting to the same point of impact as the others, two things can happen. You could mark them with empty 45 ACP brass that would remain in the chambers, or you could send the cylinder back and see what taking the throats to .4565" does for it.

My thoughts for the best scenario are that you fire the gun enough times to fill in the remaining pits, and determine that it shoots pretty dang good and just roll with it. So I can blue the chambers as you see them here and send it on back and take it from there. I think it will not waste any time in making it's own statement. You should see a tremendous improvement right away. For once, the caliber REALLY IS what the boolits are, and you now truly have a 455 Webley!"

181039

Three out of the six chambers cleaned up really well.

The others still have some pitting at .4555, but I agree with Doug not to go any larger unless shooting results indicate otherwise. Plan is to shoot it now and see how it plays.

Ah yes, DougGuy has also posted elsewhere on this job, and the job was done by honing. I'm sure he is right, and the amount of metal he removed is all it really needs. But I don't think there would have been any harm in removing enough to make it a shade over groove diameter. As he says, many Webleys have undersized throats, and it doesn't seem to have been the kiss of death to accuracy which many would predict nowadays. I have seen extremely good shooting done with a peacetime-manufacture Webley-Fosbery, which was the flagship of the range at the time, and I measured those throats at .448in. I think it probably derived from the erroneous belief of the designer of the .476 Enfield round, that pressure is built up exclusively in the cylinder. But success with this constriction undoubtedly depended on the hollow based bullets used, and you might or mightn't achieve it with flat-based as long as they were soft.

Actually the marks inside those cylinders looked more like old reaming marks than pitting. I don't know if those who converted them to .45ACP enlarged the throats, though I am sure they should have. Also although this is pure guesswork on my part, it is possible that those still in military stores had a semi-skilled reaming job done on the introduction of the MkVI jacketed bullet in 1939.

[Outpost75]

At .4555 it is now about 0.0015" over groove diameter, which I think is about perfect.

Revolver is in its original .455 caliber, so the circumferential chip gouges are most likely from the original factory reaming and rushed wartime manufacture. There were both tool marks and pitting.