Winchester 94 30-30 "Ranger" & primers - question/help

[bedbugbilly]

First I'll lay out what I have. A Winchester 94 "Ranger" in 30-30 - I bought this a year ago and I don't think it had been fired. One of the later ones I believe and it has the "cross pin safety" receiver.

I just started loading the 30-30. I bought 1X fired Winchester brass - full length sized it - and then after firing, all I'm doing is neck sizing. Using a 120ish, 10ish and 170is lead cast out of my molds.

I hand prime my casings with a Lee ergo hand primer. I check to insure the primer pockets are clean and I double check to make sure the primers are fully seated.

I'm using a variety of powders to play with - Unique, Red Dot and Green Dot and have been working up loads.

AND . . . when shooting, I make sure the lever is pulled up tight to the wrist to push the safety pin in.

NOW . . . for my problem. "Primers". I have been using CCI Large Rifle Primers. in my area, that is what is usually on the shelf at the two LGS . . once in a while they have Winchester primers. For all of my pistol loading, I use the CCI small and large pistol primers and have never had an issue with them.

I had 60 rounds loaded up the other day for the 30-30. 10 each of different powders/boolits. When I was shooting on the range in my back yard, I would load five, shoot five, go down and check the target (50 yards). Much to my dismay, out of the 6 batches of 10 cartridges, I ended up with at least one cartridge in each batch of 10 that would not go bang. The others . . . all shot with no problems. Those that would not go off on the first trigger pull, usually went off on the 2nd strike. I had one that took three strikes and I ended up with two that would not fire at all. Those two had very good firing pin impressions in them.

So . . . of course I checked the primer strike and all had decent strikes and a fairly substantial dimple in them. I was somewhat baffled why they didn't go off. After the first round would not fire, I checked each cartridge to make sure that the primers were seated . . . top of the primer was below the end of the casing and obviously seated all the way in. At first, I thought I might have some primers that were not seated all the way and the first strike was seating the and the second strike was firing them. Not so from what I saw.

I have heard and read about CCI primers being "hard" and giving problems. What I can't figure out is that I've used LR primers out of the same case of 1K for my old GEW98 Mauser and have never had any fail to fire in the 8 X 57.

Am I missing something? It's not a case of the cartridge having problems with powder position - it's a problem with the primer just not going off. The firing pin appears to be putting a substantial dimple in the primer - just not going bang. Being a rimmed cartridge, it should headspace on the rim and with the majority of the cartridges firing just fine . . . I'm sort of eliminating this down to the primers.

The next time I go to the LGS (tomorrow) I'm going to pick up a couple K of Winchester primers and see how they do if they have any in stock.

Am I missing something that I'm not realizing or that I'm not doing correctly? Or, is it just a case of the CCI LR primers and some being too hard or "duds"? I store them in a cool/dry place so I'm not looking at exposure or contamination.

All lI'm doing is "plinking", but with the number of primers I had (roughly 10%) that required at least a second hit with the firing pin or failure to fire at all, I'm glad I am not hunting or depending on this for self defense! LOL

Thoughts, suggestions, advice???? Primers? Something I'm not seeing? Or a problem with the Winchester Ranger?

Many thanks.

[Kestrel4k]

I'm not an expert, but IMO when Winchester went to the rebounding hammer design, this made for softer primer hits and some reloads can be on the edge for that.

The only rifle I've shot that was finicky on primer seating was my late-model Win94 AE with the rebounding hammer. I have to be on the very top of my game when priming cases for it. I had used Winchester primers for that one, am guessing they are on the middle of the road for sensitivity, but no idea.

[shoot-n-lead]

i'm not an expert, but imo when winchester went to the rebounding hammer design, this made for softer primer hits and some reloads can be on the edge for that.

The only rifle i've shot that was finicky on primer seating was my late-model win94 ae with rebounding hammer. I have to be on the top of my game when handloading for it.

x 2

[dverna]

I believe the Federal primers are the easiest to touch off if you have light strikes.

[bedbugbilly]

Thank you fellas - appreciate your input. I hadn't thought about the rebounding hammer and primer hit. I really like this little carbine - even with the cross safety in the receiver. Perhaps it is just going to be finicky with the primers. I'll try to get some Winchester and see if they have any other brands to try as well.

Greatly appreciate the help!

Jim

[pietro]

I'm not an expert, but IMO when Winchester went to the rebounding hammer design, this made for softer primer hits and some reloads can be on the edge for that.

The only rifle I've shot that was finicky on primer seating was my late-model Win94 AE with the rebounding hammer. I have to be on the very top of my game when priming cases for it. I had used Winchester primers for that one, am guessing they are on the middle of the road for sensitivity, but no idea.


+1 - if you pull the buttstock, you'll see that the forward end of the mainspring strut is forked, one tine shorter then the other (the rebounding hammer actuator).

The long leg propels the hammer towards the fired position, until the short leg starts to push the hammer back (toward the middle/rebound position).

Sometimes, when the short leg is a slight bit longer than it should be, intermittent misfires can occur.

The fix is to remove the MS strut & (VERY) slightly shorten the shorter leg at it's tip.

http://www.time-slice.com/mohave.gambler/favorites/LeverGuns/MVC-434S.JPG


.

[John Boy]

Conversion of '94 rebounding hammer to post-64 half cock hammer with coil spring... http://onesticky.levergunscommunity.org/how_to/rebounding_hammer_conversion.html

[FergusonTO35]

Winchester really fouled up a great JMB design with lawyer features and horrid quality control. The cheapo Marlin Glenfields were made with exacting precision by comparison. I bought a 94 brand new in 2003. It shot well but I could never get used to the awful parts fit and loose action. Replaced it with a 336 Texan, a very good decision!

[shoot-n-lead]

I still prefer the 94...just handles so much better, to me.

I just bought 2 94AE's, one 16" and one 20"...both are as tight as any 94 that I have.

[FergusonTO35]

I'm actually a big 94 fan. Yes, Winny did let some good ones slip out but I still wouldn't buy one without an inspection first.

[bedbugbilly]

Update - I went down to the LGS where I purchased this Winnie Ranger and talked to them there about it. After going over everything with them as far as what I posted in my original post . . . they said to bring it in and they'd take a look at it. The store has been in business many years and they have a good gunsmith on hand. He said he'd give it a going over and to bring in some of my rounds for him to try as well. They have sold quite a few Win. 94 Rangers over the years - in fact, they had a couple in their rack today. He was thinking that it might be just what pietro was pointing out.

I was able to get some Winchester primers to try. From the looks of what was on the shelf, the tendency to "stock up" before November is starting to be pretty evident. While there, I stocked up on rifle & pistol primers as I remember having to stand in line with a "lottery" in order to purchase ammo, etc. when I was in AZ during the last "political caused shortage".

And to add to it all . . . while there, I found a nice vintage Marlin 336 - SC 30-30. You guys are really a bad influence on others. Once I held it, smelled the aroma of gun oil and felt how nice it was in my arms . . . it followed me home. For those that are old enough to remember nicely made rifles with walnut stocks and good metal work - before plastic and laminated stocks, etc. . . . you'll know what I mean when I say it "felt good". Don't know the history of it but you can tell it was someones hunting rifle that they used for years. Some good honest wear on it but really not abused and the action feels as smooth as butter. Has a Williams receiver mounted peep on it. In 50 plus years of shooting, it's the first Marlin I've owned so am looking forward to trying it out!

[Shawlerbrook]

Congrats on the purchase of a 336 Sporting Carbine. The short mag tube rifle is one handsome design.

[robg]

Had a marlin 1894cs in 357 mag ,never got on with it .had a 1894ae trapper in 357 mag since 98 shoots and fits me well good trigger after a little polishing 2lbs broken 6 ejectors ,have repaired 2 by cutting slot where pin breaks off and soldering in a nail! .fired at least 10000 cast boolits since I've had it still shoots accurately .

[Dimner]

Update - I went down to the LGS where I purchased this Winnie Ranger and talked to them there about it. After going over everything with them as far as what I posted in my original post . . . they said to bring it in and they'd take a look at it. The store has been in business many years and they have a good gunsmith on hand. He said he'd give it a going over and to bring in some of my rounds for him to try as well. They have sold quite a few Win. 94 Rangers over the years - in fact, they had a couple in their rack today. He was thinking that it might be just what pietro was pointing out.

I was able to get some Winchester primers to try. From the looks of what was on the shelf, the tendency to "stock up" before November is starting to be pretty evident. While there, I stocked up on rifle & pistol primers as I remember having to stand in line with a "lottery" in order to purchase ammo, etc. when I was in AZ during the last "political caused shortage".

And to add to it all . . . while there, I found a nice vintage Marlin 336 - SC 30-30. You guys are really a bad influence on others. Once I held it, smelled the aroma of gun oil and felt how nice it was in my arms . . . it followed me home. For those that are old enough to remember nicely made rifles with walnut stocks and good metal work - before plastic and laminated stocks, etc. . . . you'll know what I mean when I say it "felt good". Don't know the history of it but you can tell it was someones hunting rifle that they used for years. Some good honest wear on it but really not abused and the action feels as smooth as butter. Has a Williams receiver mounted peep on it. In 50 plus years of shooting, it's the first Marlin I've owned so am looking forward to trying it out!


Dang it! You were at Williams Gunsight werent you? I had been eyeing that 336 for a while and shouldered it a couple of times when I had stopped by. I love that short tube. Had really nice dark wood.

Anyway, enjoy that rifle. It's a great one.

[bedbugbilly]

Dinner - "Williams Gunsight"??? Not familiar with that shop. Johnson's - Adrian. I just couldn't pass it up! :-)

[FergusonTO35]

Williams Gunsight is the maker of the sights by the same name. Great company to deal with!

[Tenbender]

I have had a lot of mis-fires with CCI. Remington also. I'm a Federal fan myself. However I use a lot of Seller's in pistol rounds because of price. Have not had a mis-fire yet.

[bedbugbilly]

LongPoint - thanks. I'll check that out. I always load a "dummy round" to try in the rifle before making real ones . . . I do remember that I was getting some light engraving on the lead on the dummy round. I figured they would chamber alright - the dummy did but perhaps that may be an issue on this rifle to make sure they are seated a tad bit deeper.

Ferguson . . . thanks. I've had a number of Williams sights over the years. I was trying to figure out what Dimner was referring to when he put "Williams Gunsight" as if referencing a gun shop here in Michigan in regards to a Marlin I purchased.

[Dimner]

LongPoint - thanks. I'll check that out. I always load a "dummy round" to try in the rifle before making real ones . . . I do remember that I was getting some light engraving on the lead on the dummy round. I figured they would chamber alright - the dummy did but perhaps that may be an issue on this rifle to make sure they are seated a tad bit deeper.

Ferguson . . . thanks. I've had a number of Williams sights over the years. I was trying to figure out what Dimner was referring to when he put "Williams Gunsight" as if referencing a gun shop here in Michigan in regards to a Marlin I purchased.
Sorry about the confusion.

Williams gunsight company in Davidson MI is where they make the gunsights. They also have a really nice retail store with a bunch of used guns. Right now they have a model just like your marlin. You don't see those all that often and I figured you had bought it there.




Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[bedbugbilly]

Hi Domner - thanks for clearing that up - I've never been to Davidson so will have to make that trip someday! And, since the one I got isn't the one you were looking at . .. . I think you should go and buy it before it's gone! Guns are like dogs . . . there are always some out there that need a good home and a lot love . . . . am I a "bad influence" or what? :-)

Thanks again and take care . . . appreciate all the posts!

[Wayne Smith]

Another possibility when the second try sets off a primer is a incompletly seated primer, the first strike fully seats it and the second sets it off.

[OverMax]

Primers not fully seated.
Tip: Get yourself a old Pacific Brass trimmer. Seat your primer as usual. Then use the Pacific Shell Trimmers w/shell holder. _Turn Ram c/w _ to fully seat any large pistol/rifle primer before its case is re-loaded. (you'll be surprised how far primers actually seat down into their pockets.) Once the primer has been seated correctly. You'll never have another miss fire primer problem (with a rebounding hammer coil or leaf spring.)

[shdwlkr]

If I were to go and look for a lever first thing is has to have at least a 24 inch barrel on it, don't really care who made it. I started with winchesters many decades ago because the local gun shop I went to with my cousin only had winchesters. In later years I got to shoot many marlins and liked the ones I shot. When looking for lever action firearm make sure you actually put it up to your shoulder and think how it fits you and how it will work for you. Nothing really matters as to who made it more of how well it fits you is the important thing to keep in mind.

[Jmburns]

+1 - if you pull the buttstock, you'll see that the forward end of the mainspring strut is forked, one tine shorter then the other (the rebounding hammer actuator).

The long leg propels the hammer towards the fired position, until the short leg starts to push the hammer back (toward the middle/rebound position).

Sometimes, when the short leg is a slight bit longer than it should be, intermittent misfires can occur.

The fix is to remove the MS strut & (VERY) slightly shorten the shorter leg at it's tip.

http://www.time-slice.com/mohave.gambler/favorites/LeverGuns/MVC-434S.JPG


.

I'm having an light primer strike issue with a newly purchased 94ae, which is the short leg of the marinating strut? I want to make sure I trim/sand the correct leg.

Thanks

[shtur]

I had the same problem with my 94ae, sometimes the round went off, sometimes it didn't. I read on another internet site, cutting the lower leg took care of misfires.

The poster on the other site removed almost 3/8 inches from the lower leg(the leg pointing down). I only filed a minor amount from mine and polished it with 600 grit paper when done. I also purchased a Sinclair large primer reamer and that really squares the primer pocket perfectly.

[pietro]

I'm having an light primer strike issue with a newly purchased 94ae, which is the short leg of the marinating strut? I want to make sure I trim/sand the correct leg.

Thanks



Welcome to the board ! :bigsmyl2:



The mainspring strut upper fork leg drives the hammer forward; the lower leg is supposed to raise the hammer off the FP after it was dropped, but if the lower leg is too long, it will intercept the hammer's fwd movement as it only begins to hit the FP, instead of a millisecond afterwards.

Shorten the mainspring lower strut leg to resolve light hammer strikes - baby steps only...…………………. :holysheep

File/grind, testfire… file/grind/testfire, etc, etc until the light strikes disappear.[smilie=2:

(note: not every rebounding hammer will need this "adjustment")



.

[FergusonTO35]

The Mossberg 464 also uses the rebounding hammer design. Mine has light strikes, however I think it just has a weak hammer spring.

[veeman]

My old Ranger has never had a problem with it's rebounding hammer. Guess I got lucky. Great shooter, too.
236192

[shootsblanks]

I had the same problem with my 94ae, sometimes the round went off, sometimes it didn't. I read on another internet site, cutting the lower leg took care of misfires.

The poster on the other site removed almost 3/8 inches from the lower leg(the leg pointing down). I only filed a minor amount from mine and polished it with 600 grit paper when done. I also purchased a Sinclair large primer reamer and that really squares the primer pocket perfectly.

i am one of those guys that just cut the thing off, now it functions more like a half cock, fixed my issue of misfires though

[Jmburns]

Thanks for the help everyone. I ended up taking a little over a 1/16 off and now it goes bang every time. The primer strike depth is still a little shallower the I'd like but I think the cci primers might be part of the issue.

[robg]

Had a problem with some large rifle CCI primers last year ,never had a problem before or since maybe you had a few duff ones. Otherwise check and clean your primer pockets.