Suggestions for holding a .44 sbh

[chutestrate]

I picked up a Ruger sbh in .44. It came with it's factory grips, and hogue rubber. I left the rubber grips on it, and found that I'm consistently shooting high. I let the recoil roll the pistol back into my hand which make it manageable, but I'm thinking it also is contributing to my high shooting.

I did manage to put a few shots in the general area of where I wanted them to be on the target. I'm new to this type of grip and could use some pointers if anyone has a few.

Currently I grip the sbh with the vertical part of the grip nestled in my palm. When it recoils it slides through and I end up with the barrel pointed upwards. Am I possibly ignoring a small but important part of gripping it? I'm getting the high shots from a rest and two hand hold. I do know I flinch as well, but I don't think that puts me high, just off to either side.

[454PB]

That "flinch" can cause all kinds of problems, and usually the shot is low or high. You can actually see what is happening by loading two or three rounds, give the cylinder a random spin, and observe where the sights go when you flinch. Flinch is all mental and takes a lot of shooting practice to overcome.

[chutestrate]

Probably right. Darn, have to shoot more.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

The plough handle grip of single actions are designed to roll upward when fired, and it's a very common thing for a full power .44 Mag. to point it's barrel skyward when discharged. If you shoot from an isosceles stance with shoulder, elbows and wrists rigidly locked and fire your wrists will take the major portion of the recoil and will be the first portion of your anatomy to involuntarily bend from the recoil, instead of it being shared by your elbows and shoulders. I've seen people who held too tightly actually lose the gun upon firing. You have to get it into your head that the "thing" (the SBH) isn't going to bite you, and while holding it firmly don't choke it to death. Concentrate on your sight picture and start squeezing the trigger, and you should be surprised when it goes off. Success will come with practice.

[lefty o]

yup, firm but relaxed grip. personally i could never shoot a sbh worth a crapp with rubber grips on em, the smooth factory wood grips are another story, much much better for me.

[smkummer]

The best part of any 44 magnum, is 44 special. Try some lite range plinking ammo first and work your way up. For example, 4 grains bullseye and a 240 grain lead bullet. Then once that is mastered, try 7.5 grains unique with the same bullet. Then switch to 44 mag. cases and up the charge to 10 grains unique. Then 12 grains. After that you can go with a full load of 2400. You may want to stop prior to that, and that is fine.

I bought my SBH 40 years ago when I was in HS. After about a year and a half, I discovered that I shoot it so much better with a reduced load. I had not shot it in about 5 years until about a month ago. I can hit well with it and I also fired some full house loads. The second I even thought about the recoil, I missed the metal plate at 15 yards. When I did my part and not think about the recoil, I hit it. I had pachmayrs on mine for the longest time but went back to factory wood as I seldom fire full power loads anymore.

[44man]

The gun should not "ROLL". Hold firm so the gun does not change position in your hand. You lose all control with changing barrel rise. Let the gun bring your arms up instead.
The .44 has too much recoil to run free.
The hog leg was not designed to roll, it was made for point ability. Roll came from someone that said it gets the hammer closer to your thumb to cock but you still need to shift it to hit. You have another thumb if needed for speed.
I like the Pachmeyer Signature grips best and off hand shooting will have my pinky under the grip so my trigger finger is in a straighter line to the trigger.
Handguns are 100% dependent on barrel rise before boolit release. Get a grip! Hold loose and you get vertical stringing. Don't lock elbows, let them pivot. Best shock absorbers you have.
I seen too many with barrel grooves in foreheads and black eyes and when you get to what I shoot you will understand.

[chutestrate]

So if I understand correctly. Hold firmly so it doesn't slip back into my hands, keep my elbows a bit bent to allow for recoil absorption, and try to make the pull of the trigger line up directly with my hand so it is a straight pull back.

[44man]

So if I understand correctly. Hold firmly so it doesn't slip back into my hands, keep my elbows a bit bent to allow for recoil absorption, and try to make the pull of the trigger line up directly with my hand so it is a straight pull back.
Yes. The gun is a wonder. You chose a good one. Just get used to it. You are on the start of a love affair.
This is what mine will do. 175996Three shots in 3/4" at 100 yards off hand. 175997 Three shots at 200 yards from the bench-1-5/16". I made the mold and it is 330 gr with 21 gr of 296 and a Fed 150 primer. 1316 fps, want to discuss RECOIL? Wimp this one and you will suffer.
A tip for you, keep the cylinder pin clean and lube it and the ratchet with STP oil treatment and it will last generations. This gun of mine has exceeded 81,000 heavy loads and uncounted light ones. The brass I used was shot over 40X.
Much of my fun shooting starts at 100 yards. But if you want light loads, a 240, 245 or 250 with about 7 gr of Unique is tin can accurate at 50 yards.
You can make the .44 do all you want. Use a Federal 150 primer for EVERY powder, never a mag primer. A CCI 300 will work too. Yes the books say a mag, if you want to triple groups.

[Thumbcocker]

What .44 Man said. I don't want to rebuild my grip on the gun after each shot.

[DougGuy]

Normally, dwell time in the barrel is what determines vertical point of impact. A lighter boolit traveling faster will shoot to a lower point of impact because it leaves the muzzle before the gun has a chance to roll upward as much as it would with a heavier slower boolit. If you are shooting heavy boolits, shooting high is pretty much normal.

I use the Lee C430-310-RF in my SBH and I adjusted the rear sight all the way down, then took the sight blade to a belt sander until it was flush with the sight body, then filed a new notch in the middle of it to bring the sights to the point of impact. Shoots great now but I would have to replace the sanded down sight blade to go back to using lighter boolits but as good as it is shooting these heavy for caliber boolits I doubt I am ever going back.

[tdoyka]

Microsoft Word - Document4 (http://www.gunlink.info/targets/PistolChartL1S.pdf)

Correction-Chart.cdr (http://is-lan.com/challenge/images/Pistol-Correction.pdf)

this will help.

[44man]

Normally, dwell time in the barrel is what determines vertical point of impact. A lighter boolit traveling faster will shoot to a lower point of impact because it leaves the muzzle before the gun has a chance to roll upward as much as it would with a heavier slower boolit. If you are shooting heavy boolits, shooting high is pretty much normal.

I use the Lee C430-310-RF in my SBH and I adjusted the rear sight all the way down, then took the sight blade to a belt sander until it was flush with the sight body, then filed a new notch in the middle of it to bring the sights to the point of impact. Shoots great now but I would have to replace the sanded down sight blade to go back to using lighter boolits but as good as it is shooting these heavy for caliber boolits I doubt I am ever going back.
Very true, barrel time is important but free recoil with every shot different can get nasty on the target. Another thing to cause vertical stringing is uneven case tension. A boolit driven out from the primer before ignition is an SEE event and the gap saves you and the gun.
I cured the tension long ago since I can measure seating pressure. But many shoot soft lead and use over size expanders or "M" expanders. Then stuff a mag primer in because the book says so. The boolit can be up in the bore before the powder lights off.
The stuff of not sizing boolits when seated leads to less tension and it baffles me.
I see you agree with me that a soft Keith will lose the side in the cone and fail to "clock" the cylinder. Best to make the ogive work.
The revolver is a beast and I still don't think anyone has done what I have. You and I agree on so much except over crimp.
Too many think the brass "JUMPS" open, in reality the boolit alone opens crimp and can be sized again. Hundreds of tests with every crimp shows tension alone is where it is. Just apply enough to aid tension to hold a boolit under recoil. Once all boolits stay in the brass, you need no more.
A boolit should enter a fired case.176049This boolit slid into a fired case and pulled back out with no Resistance. The boolit is not sized either.
Accuracy is at the bench.

[Thumbcocker]

A gunsmith can mill off the front sight on blued Rugers and mill a slot in the base to install a .45 colt height sight on a .44. A roll pin holds it in place. The stainless guns have pinned in front sights already and are an easy swap.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Many years ago an old timer with a Colt cavalery long barrled .45 colt pistol taught me how to hold it correctly as he was taught even more years before. Your little finger has nothing to really hold onto in the grip sequence. Put the pinky under the grip to sort of make a `shelf` for the pistol grip to sit on. I have the Hogue Monogrip on all my Blackhawks and have no issues of `wandering hits`. Best cure for a flinch is have another person load the pistol and hand it to you. Of course there must be several empty cases in the cartridge cylinder mix. By not knowing if you will get a shot or a click you can concentrate more on sight picture to cure the flinch problem.Robert

[gwpercle]

I grip the Ruger SBH firmly , with both hands , both extended arms held with elbows more or less locked. Absorb the recoil with the upper part of the body , rolling with the punch. Try not to let the gun roll up in my hand...firm grip on checkered rubber grips.
The 44 magnum is not to be held lightly, it will recoil and could hit you in the forehead.
The gun may be shooting high because your letting it roll upwards. Don't fool with the sights until you get your shooting technique worked out.
Buy a few boxes of 44 specials and work on firm grip and overcoming that flinch....flinching will never make you a decent shot....more flinches have been caused by the 44 magnum than anything I know. There's no law that says you MUST shoot the heaviest 44 magnum loads available just to get your man card punched.

The guy next to me at the shooting range had groups of 8-9 inches with his 9mm , when he broke out the 44 magnum his groups went to 3 feet and some didn't even hit the huge target he had hung ! We were all so impressed at the absolute lack of accuracy....he was trying to impress his young son !
Gary

[44man]

I am crazy, I teach a friend with my .475 or .500, then drop to the .44. They get used to big and hit good and the .44 is nothing after. I never start with a .22 and go up. I go big first and go down. It works better then anything.

[ironhead7544]

You didnt say what load you are using. The heavy bullets will shoot high with stock sights IME.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I am crazy, I teach a friend with my .475 or .500, then drop to the .44. They get used to big and hit good and the .44 is nothing after. I never start with a .22 and go up. I go big first and go down. It works better then anything.


I ran the handgun section of a gunclub that I was involved with for over 10 years before I handed the gavel off to someone else. I always started small caliber and worked up, especially for those that had never fired a handgun or gun flinchy older ladies wanting to have a protection pistol. As young as 8 and up to a 71 year old hospital aide were taught this way over the 10 year span. I still will teach and I still start out small and work up.Robert

[44man]

I ran the handgun section of a gunclub that I was involved with for over 10 years before I handed the gavel off to someone else. I always started small caliber and worked up, especially for those that had never fired a handgun or gun flinchy older ladies wanting to have a protection pistol. As young as 8 and up to a 71 year old hospital aide were taught this way over the 10 year span. I still will teach and I still start out small and work up.Robert
Trigger control works that way and even a bb gun can teach that. But the hardest man will fear recoil after years of shooting. many here with small guns they should do better with. The fear in their eyes can be seen when I give them a .44 but with instruction, they will feel at home. Then to go back to the little guns, the improvement can be seen, As you go up, fear is there at each step. A .22 to a .38 will mess the mind.
A friend brought his son to shoot. He was ready to get racing stripes with my .500, NO WAY! I held it out with one hand and showed him. He took it and with proper instruction, busted bottles of water at 50 yards. Then he took his dads .454 and busted bottles at 100 yards. I reversed the fear. You should see him with a .22 pistol now.
No, you do not give an 8 year old a .500 but why not a .38?
I remember the first shot with a .44 mag Ruger. Holy hell, did the gun blow up? Then I loved it. My daughter when young would make most look sick with a 12 ga. Skinny little thing that would run 99 out 100. Always missed the first shot until she had it.
As you go up you see fear and flinching. Cure it at the start.

[44MAG#1]

I agree with 44man surprisingly.
As one goes up in recoil fear builds in the individual.
Because their mind is always one jump ahead wondering how bad the next increase in recoil will be as the go to bigger calibers.
The fear builds all out of proportion to the gun.
Some will never get it simply because a man is hard to teach. Knows everything under the sun, never afraid of anything, tougher than John Wayne toilet paper. But, flinch like the devil with a 38 Special or a 9M/M.
Those types rarely get it.

[Blackwater]

Some awfully good advice given above. Count me in with the firm grip crowd. I can't grip it well enough any more to prevent some slippage, but FWIW, there are two guns that, if you learn to shoot them, will allow you to shoot practically any handgun well. Those are the Ruger .44 and the 1911 .45. The Ruger teaches the necessity and benefits of a good, firm grip, and the .45 teaches you good follow-through, with its kind'a double-shuffle recoil as the slide goes back and to. Learn to shoot those two, and you'll be a pretty good pisolero. And the main thing it takes is experimentation to see what works best for YOU! ONLY via experience can you determine that, and shooting popgun loads to avoid the recoil only prolongs the agony (and the misses) when you shoot the full loads.

One thing that I've found helps almost everyone who I've taught to shoot, is really good ear muffs. Most folks are more afraid of the muzzle blast than they are the eminently controllable recoil. I just picked up a new pair of muffs rated at 34 DB shound reduction, and gee golly wow are they good! They were made by Walker, which I think (?) is the same folks who make the electronic "Game Ear" hearing aid type thingies. I have been VERY impressed with these! And I now need to take all the care I can of my hearing, and too many .44's in the field without ear protection has been a significantly contributing factor to my hearing problems today. I finally began taking muffs with me when I went to put up a stand after making a selection for where to put it. I limbed the trees with it. Never liked taking whole limbs off, and just shoot the branches where they fall down or off, and create little holes through which I can shoot without danger of hitting any limbs, leaves or twigs.

Really good muffs - the highest DB rating you can get - really help with flinches. Nobody in their right mind LIKES having an explosion go off in their hands! One CAN, though, get used to it to the point where it no longer causes a flinch, and part of what gives folks the simple faith and confidence to not flinch is not having their ears hurt by the muzzle blast. And the .44 is notorious for its muzzle blast, or at least was before the .454, .460 & .500 S&W's and others came out.

As a young man, I found the recoil rather exhilerating. Now? The recoil affects me more than it used to, but it's really the muzzle blast that I dread most. And this is after firing many, many thousands of rounds, almost all full power level, in the Ruger SB.

You can't really know what you're truly capable of unless and until you get rid of that flinch, even if it only rears its ugly head now and then. And you really need to get rid of it and master the gun before using it for hunting. Flinches cause wounded and all too often wasted deer, and that'll never be an OK thing. But it's really not hard to eliminate a flinch. Just control the blast with really good high DB rated muffs, and you'll begin to notice that the recoil, especially when using a good, firm grip (about like a good, firm but friendly hand shake) really isn't that bad, and it was the blast that was creating the flinch all along. When that happens, you're really on the virge of learning to shoot really well. It certainly can't hurt to give it a try.

[Thumbcocker]

When the weather is warm and my hand starts to slip a bit I break out by custom shooting glove. It is a cloth gardening glove with polymer stuff on the palm. I got the pair at rural king for $3 and change. I cut the trigger finger off at the first joint (the gloves not mine) and viola a custom no slip shooting glove.

[HABCAN]

Absobloominlutely, use what 44Man and Blackwater et al have posted!! What they and others have posted about grip tension and position is essential. (I started with Colt SAA's in 1948, and teaching marksmanship in 1953, and still have the occasional student come by.)

[44man]

Sounds backwards but as kids we loved recoil. Shoot a double 12 ga by pulling both triggers at once so you spun a circle. Had to quit when an Ithaca forearm came off and the barrels hit the ground.
I still remember the first shot from my flat top. Factory loads much worse then hand loads to get brass. Once I seen no damage to the gun, it was love. Nothing the gun would not do.
We were crazy, ran a course shooting the Ithaca 37 with one hand.
A .38???
Best ever was when were were done shooting, going to the car. A guy stopped to talk. Said he had a powerful gun, P38. I talked him into shooting my .44 and he just missed his head, turned white and left right quick.

[Blackwater]

That's SO funny, 44man! The .44 is one that tends to really separate the men from the boys and wannabes. It rears and bucks, but it's really controllable. You just can't limp wrist it. Power comes at a price, and that price is recoil. Watching some of the guys in IPSC shows just how well recoil CAN be handled IF one applies one's self, and has some determination, and can practice enough to overcome the initial perceptions that are mostly in the mind.

Like you, I fell in love with the .44 at the first shot. I'd never shot one before, and looked forward to the challenge. I got it, but mostly from sheer defiance, I set about learning to control it, and by simple trial and experimentation, learned the "secrets" of shooting the powerful SA handgun. All it really takes is determination, good ear muffs, and a good dose of observational skills. Once you start to notice the "little things" (as most like to look at them, at least) like grip pressure, precise positioning of the grip in the hand, etc., skill with it actually comes pretty fast, and the .44's accuracy is legendary with good loads. And once you learn to shoot it, you CAN refine your loads, and by simply keeping good records, can continue to fine tune your loads over time, which allows you to get better and better simply by "grooving" your technique and continually refining your loads.

Shooting with the best shot you know also helps. As time goes by, you begin to really nit-pick your grip, hold, gun and loads, and it just keeps getting better and better. It's really exciting and very satisfying to "tame the savage beast," and when you get it tamed, to use it to hit just about anything you want. Very satisfying, but it doesn't come overnight. Like everything in life, it has to be earned, and trial and error are a part of that. The nice thing is the errors, if we identify them rightly, don't have to be repeated. And if we're not experimenting, we're not learning, and if we're not learning, why shoot?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Your grip on that gun is kind of important and nothing else works until you get the grip right.

It should look like this.

Randy

[44MAG#1]

If it is a stainless get the higher front blade from Brownells and install it and it will be fixed if it is shooting high.
With the flinching you are going to have to overcome that.

[44man]

Yes, good picture. Don't want to the shake point but I see pictures of the best shooters in gun rags with 1911's with veins bulging. Even the little gun is held very firm. The little ACP has no recoil to speak of, it is the slide coming back that raises the gun so that is what they control.
As we age and lose strength we can't hold as well without shaking so a rest is important. Us old goats can't do it anymore. Still no excuse to allow a gun to run free.
I hold the .475 tighter and the .500 JRH tighter still or blood can flow and shots will be high. Makes the .44 nothing at all.
Only one revolver I refused to shoot. a .50 Alaskan with smooth, shiny grips, Bisley that I hate anyway. What was it? DT or something, before the BFR. This is my friend that let it get away.176353 Seems a Bisley does not work either. Then Karl that split his forehead with my .475 and had a shiner for weeks. Told me he likes to hold a gun loose to Roll. His words to me were, I hate your guns.
I shot with Karl for years and never knew that so I neglected to instruct him. My mistake. Now I tell everyone to hold that thing TIGHT and once they are used to it, they shoot smaller guns like the .44 much better. Had guys here that never shot over a nine bust bottles at 100 with a .500.

[44MAG#1]

As 44man said age is the enemy of grip and endurance.
I don't hold any handgun like the picture but still do well.
I hold as tight as I can WITHOUT causing tremors to set in. Even at that if I don't rest I still get the tremors.
I use the Elmer Keith hold with the weak hand. Have never had a problem.
That hold in the photo with a hard kicking Contender or Encore will get you some damaged fingers on the weak hand.

[dverna]

Most people will not do well starting with a heavy recoiling gun. Does not matter if it is a pistol, rifle or shotgun.

If all you have is a .44 Mag, you should load the lightest load you can, and start there. If you are flinching with light loads, you have a rough road ahead. Dry firing can help. It forces you to keep the front sight on the target after the trigger is pulled. If you cannot keep the front sight on the target when dry firing, you will never shoot a pistol well.

Dry firing is really boring but really cheap. One caution. NEVER have any ammo in the same room when you dry fire. Buy (or make) snap caps.

44man is generally incorrect about recoil. It is not "fun" for most people. It will make most people shoot less proficiently. If recoil was fun and did not affect proficiency we would all carry 10mm semi-autos or .44 Mags for self defense. Many LEO's are moving from the .40 back to the 9mm - it is the reason we are seeing a lot of .40 trade in guns on the market.

Now, 44man is right that some people like recoil, and are less sensitive to it. They are the minority. It works for him. It does not mean it will work for you.

[44MAG#1]

Dverna.

Handling recoil is mental. Nothing else. Tell me how learning to hold the front sight on the target KNOWING when dry firing the pistol is unloaded and not going to go boom and kick will keep you from flinching when it is LOADED and going to go boom and kick.
The only way you can do that is with mental discipline. Nothing else. Same thing with dropping back to a 22 LR.
Explain to us how that helps?
Maybe for a light recoiling gun like a 9, 40 or a 45 AUTO and then it is iffy when most think a 40 and a 45 AUTO recoils.

[44man]

Dverna.

Handling recoil is mental. Nothing else. Tell me how learning to hold the front sight on the target KNOWING when dry firing the pistol is unloaded and not going to go boom and kick will keep you from flinching when it is LOADED and going to go boom and kick.
The only way you can do that is with mental discipline. Nothing else. Same thing with dropping back to a 22 LR.
Explain to us how that helps?
Maybe for a light recoiling gun like a 9, 40 or a 45 AUTO and then it is iffy when most think a 40 and a 45 AUTO recoils.
Darn right, it is Mental. You can dry fire a .22 for a year. Flinch when a round is in.
Flinch is different and is hard to cure. Most comes from shooting a .22 to be true. it is dang hard to cure and might never be done. Recoil can be removed from fear. Flinch is still the brain as is recoil.
Not a shooter on earth can say to control a flinch is easy. But once fear of recoil is gone, all can shoot better and flinch is reduced. Muscle memory comes from actual, not false. Dry fire does not put you in the real world. You want to deer hunt with a .44, why in the world would I have you shoot a .38? You get good with a .338 or .458 what is a 30-06?

[robertbank]

Flinching while shooting is like the yips are in putting. Once you got um you got um as Sam Snead used to say and he certainly should know. It takes a lot of work to reduce them but in some cases it is more than mental as the nerves themselves come into play all of which is mental I guess.

Take Care

Bob

[44man]

I shot competition with a flint lock, Won bags of groceries and prizes. Tough shooting. Tame that damned thing and you can shoot anything.

[dverna]

I know I am wasting my time....but here goes

If you cannot hold the front sight on the target when dry firing you will not be able to do it when shooting. Dry firing teaches trigger control.

If the front sight comes off the target when the trigger is squeezed during dry firing you will see it happen. You work on correcting it. If you cannot correct it, you are doomed to be a lousy pistol shot.

Recoil is not mental. I have a muzzle brake on my .300 Mag because shooting it off the bench hurts. I think there was an article by John Taffin wherein he admitted that shooting full loads of 44 Mag over the years had affected his hands. In the end, do whatever floats your boat.

Flinching can be mental. I had to go to a release trigger in Trap when I started to flinch. It was not a recoil induced flinch. But in some cases recoil will contribute to flinching. As will noise.

Your experince may differ.

[44MAG#1]

Dverna.

No your not wasting your time.
Let me ask you this. Someone has a bad case of the flinchitis, he decides to start dry firing do to something he read on the castboolits forum. He dry fires a lot. He gets to where he can keep the front sight on the target (trigger control) as you call it.
Now he loads up his vehicle with his favorite 44 Mag that he can dry fire so well. He gets to the range, puts up a target, loads up his Maggie with 24 gr H110/W296 with his 240 gr jacketed whizz bang bullet levels off and flinches the gun.
What has happened. He realized the gun is going to go boom and have a rearward thrust known as recoil that his empty did not have when he was dry firing.
Now how does he cure the flinchitis now? Drop back to his 22 LR handgun or even go back to dry firing and empty gun again?
Break it down for me and 44man so we will know.
Not saying it is impossible for it to work, but, how many will it help 1 out of 10? 1 out of 20? 1 out of 100?
Just break the process down for us.
Everyone would love to be able to save money on components and time. Especially if Clinton get in.

"Recoil is not mental. I have a muzzle brake on my .300 Mag because shooting it off the bench hurts. I think there was an article by John Taffin wherein he admitted that shooting full loads of 44 Mag over the years had affected his hands. In the end, do whatever floats your boat."

That isn't what was said. HANDLING RECOIL is mental. Recoil is physical.
"

[chutestrate]

Just catching up on the posts, and I can't wait to put all of the suggestions to practice. I think I can overcome the flinching. I've done it before, and while tough it's not impossible. Thank you all for such valuable suggestions.

[shorty500M]

having shot trap, having observed many go to a release trigger as i also did and it helped very few- we just flinched when setting trigger instead of at break of shot! my flinch wasnt recoil induced ut stress nduced by performance levels and a very bad time in personal life that caused severe mental issues

[tazman]

I shot trap and was pretty good at it. The problem for me was I developed target panic. I didn't flinch exactly, at least not from the recoil. I jerked the trigger because I wanted the gun to go off when my sights were right on. With the shotgun in that type of shooting, it wasn't a problem.
My shooting in all other disciplines where holding steady and aiming with a smooth trigger pull is necessary has never truly recovered. In archery, I was able to overcome it by using a back tension release. I wish there was something similar for a rifle. Release triggers just don't work for me and would be useless with a handgun in a fight anyway.
Now the only way I can hold a single action 44 mag is in a box on the way to the gun shop to sell it. I have developed arthritis in my wrists and hands. It hurts to shoot heavy recoiling handguns.
So far my 30-06 rifle is still shoot-able for me but I don't know for how much longer.
Getting old ain't for sissies.

[cowboy]

Howdy;
I do own a stable full of single actions, and for a SHORT time had one of the Dragoon grip framed, 7 1/2 " barreled .44 Mag SBHs. Did NOT like it. Neither did I like the Bisley grip frame, in spite of what various writers said about it being the BEST way to tame recoil in single actions.
Then one day, a 5 1/2 inch barreled SBH came my way. No squared off trigger guard, fluted cylinder. Using the same two handed hold I used in cowboy Action Shooting ( NOT Duelist class, thank you ), I could now LOVE the SBH.
As an aside, the gripframe of my Freedom Arms .454 Casull allows me to control the gun in heavy recoil , although I do wear a shooting glove which gives additional wrist support when shooting it, as having it "roll" in my grip is NOT a good nor desirable thing!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Dverna.

No your not wasting your time.
Let me ask you this. Someone has a bad case of the flinchitis, he decides to start dry firing do to something he read on the castboolits forum. He dry fires a lot. He gets to where he can keep the front sight on the target (trigger control) as you call it.
Now he loads up his vehicle with his favorite 44 Mag that he can dry fire so well. He gets to the range, puts up a target, loads up his Maggie with 24 gr H110/W296 with his 240 gr jacketed whizz bang bullet levels off and flinches the gun.
What has happened. He realized the gun is going to go boom and have a rearward thrust known as recoil that his empty did not have when he was dry firing.
Now how does he cure the flinchitis now? Drop back to his 22 LR handgun or even go back to dry firing and empty gun again?
Break it down for me and 44man so we will know.
Not saying it is impossible for it to work, but, how many will it help 1 out of 10? 1 out of 20? 1 out of 100?
Just break the process down for us.
Everyone would love to be able to save money on components and time. Especially if Clinton get in.

"Recoil is not mental. I have a muzzle brake on my .300 Mag because shooting it off the bench hurts. I think there was an article by John Taffin wherein he admitted that shooting full loads of 44 Mag over the years had affected his hands. In the end, do whatever floats your boat."

That isn't what was said. HANDLING RECOIL is mental. Recoil is physical.
"

I can break it down,,,

Dry firing teaches you trigger control and sight alignment the two most important things with respect to accuracy. It also teaches proper Grip for whatever handgun you are shooting. This helps you control recoil. If your grip sucks then you will not handle recoil well and eventually you will start flinching. This is only natural.

Dealing with recoil is both mental and physical. You have to learn to take the hit. Matters not how big the gun is, you have to learn to take the hit. If you can't take the hit of a .45-70 with 400 gr boolits at 1600 fps the back off to 300 gr boolits at 1600fps. That's a 25% reduction. If that's still too much then back off again,, or more properly start at the bottom and increase the loads until you can't take it any more, and then back off a little until you can.

The bottom line is you know what's coming and so you have to be willing to take the hit after you do all the fundamentals correctly up to breaking the shot and following thru. If you don't have those fundamentals firmly in place,,, you are going to suck, and it is going to hurt while you are sucking! Dry firing is the way to learn those fundamentals and firing lower powered rounds is the extension of that. Trying to learn to shoot with full power 44's is dumb..

My bench mark is firing 40 rounds in a Silhouette Match. If I can't do that then I either change guns or lighten the loads up. I shoot this with a variety of guns up to my Marlin1895 CB which only weighs 8 lbs. So the most I can endure is 325 gr boolits at @1550fps. More gets old fast. However if hunting I could easily take 2-3 400 gr boolits at 1800fps.

I was shooting LR Sil last weekend and the Peanut Gallery had assembled behind me during the chickens. (we shoot reverse course so chickens are last, meaning I've already fired 30 rounds before we got there.) On the third shot I flinched so bad everybody busted up laughing,,, However I didn't pull the trigger. Sooo,,, I got it back together and hit the last 3 chickens in a row. This was with my Ruger Guide Gun in .30-06 which weighs 9lbs and is a Cream Puff to shoot. But my point was I got my fundamentals back in before I fired the next shot. Flinching is not necessarily a life sentence. You can get around it, as long as you know you can take the hit.

If you can't take the hit you are wasting your time.

In other words I mentally conditioned myself to take the hit, and I knew I could physically take it.

Don's point about dry firing was pertinent as well, cuz if you can't make sight alignment while dry firing, you damn sure won't do it live fire, and especially if you are afraid of the gun. Flinching = Afraid of the gun.

If you are afraid of the gun, you have several choices. Reduce loads until you can manage it, learn to deal with full power loads, which is doubtful, or sell the gun.

Just to put this into context,,, I can shoot about 12 full power loads in my SBH Bisley before it starts affecting me. However I can shoot Mid Range Loads indefinitely.

So I don't shoot that many full house loads in those guns. However I don't feel slighted in the least, as I know perfectly well that if I can hit something with one of my loads at 900 or 1000 fps that it is going to fall over just as fast if it was hit by the same boolit at 1300 fps. There's a whole lot of difference in recoil between the two but not that much difference on the receiving end.

So beating yourself to death is pointless IMHO. :holysheep

I can also assure you that after shooting a full box of Mid range loads that I can still suffer thru a few **** Kickers if needed and be as accurate as I was with the lighter loads. Recoil is cumulative so it will catch up to you, but there is a window during the transition where you can be as accurate with the high power loads as you were with the lower powered ones. The same holds true after dry firing,,, the first few live shots will reacquaint you with the recoil and you will be able to hold the gun right for a while. Then if you've got a brain you quit right there and finish on a high note instead of after complete failure. The latter only ruins you for the next time.

So managing Recoil is both Mental and Physical.

Randy

[44MAG#1]

"If you can't take the hit you are wasting your time."

Now people are getting it. Taking the "hit" is how one learns to take the "hit".
Dry firing DOES NOT do that.

"Dry firing teaches you trigger control and sight alignment the two most important things with respect to accuracy. It also teaches proper Grip for whatever handgun you are shooting. This helps you control recoil. If your grip sucks then you will not handle recoil well and eventually you will start flinching. This is only natural."

Trigger control and sight alignment is critical to shooting any gun. We know that, with trigger control being the most important. But, how do you know your grip that you are using is "right" for the amount of recoil you are going to get. The grip one adapts to with a 22 or dry firing just because it is comfortable does not mean it is right for heavy recoil.


"In other words I mentally conditioned myself to take the hit, and I knew I could physically take it."


Being able to take it physically is a given. That should be understood.


"In other words I mentally conditioned myself to take the hit, and I knew I could physically take it."


Refer back to my first statement .


"Don's point about dry firing was pertinent as well, cuz if you can't make sight alignment while dry firing, you damn sure won't do it live fire, and especially if you are afraid of the gun. Flinching = Afraid of the gun."


There is nothing new there. The sights are the "steering wheel" of the bullet. That is another given to anyone that shoots or sights wouldn't need to be on the gun if precision shooting could be done without proper sight alignment.


"Recoil is cumulative so it will catch up to you, "


That is true for all of us. When it accumulates to the point one starts dread to pull the trigger one needs to stop before that point. Unless one is a glutton for punishment.


"So managing Recoil is both Mental and Physical."

Now we are getting to the meat of the problem. The mental aspect is what most have a problem with. That is the problem. The physical part is a given. If one is too weak to hold onto the gun than the mental part and the dry firing is for nothing if one is going to shoot a hard kicker.
Now explain to me how dry firing an empty gun teaches one to take the hit?
That was my question. We ALL know trigger control and sight alignment is paramount because that is how we hit the target.
But, how does the flincher do that when he has learned not to flinch because of dry firing but still jerks the devil out of the trigger while at the same time stiffens up like a statue, because of the recoil he knows he is going to get that his empty gun didn't have. he really hasn't learned to manage recoil because he dry fired twenty thousand times and thinks he has because he read dry firing will help with the recoil.
Reality is awful at times isn't it.

[45 Dragoon]

44man, you make a lot of sense! I've enjoyed reading this thread.
I will say, I took the wimp route and converted some open top Dragoons to .45 Colt cartridge guns. Those big ol heavy revolvers make "heavy" .45 rounds a piece of cake! And I confess, I don't like shooting my wife's. 38 snubby (it's too loud and jumpy !!)!!

Mike

[44man]

Actually, John shot large calibers and the guns were light. Gun weight is important.
Dry firing does aid and I did a lot of it but once I knew the gun was loaded, it was no help. The worst was the 45-70 BPCR off hand. From prone I used a shoulder pad but it was too thick for off hand.
Shooting rubber bullets was even better then dry fire. You can learn trigger control but when you know recoil is coming stupid can get me too. Flinchitis is a disease with no pill. Maybe the only solution is more shooting.
There is another problem you need to look for. We all shake and it is hard to hold still on a target. If you make the gun shoot as the sights cross the center, you will miss. Usually a high hit. You must forget the movement and just control the trigger. A blank mind works best.
Being young and strong is the best. I used to clear the 100 yard rail of bottles off hand but the older I is, the worse I is. I will be 79 in Dec and still love my big calibers and can't wait for deer season.
I can only say, enjoy your time. Time is very fast.

[W.R.Buchanan]

"Dry firing teaches you trigger control and sight alignment the two most important things with respect to accuracy. It also teaches proper Grip for whatever handgun you are shooting. This helps you control recoil. If your grip sucks then you will not handle recoil well and eventually you will start flinching. This is only natural."

Now explain to me how dry firing an empty gun teaches one to take the hit?

That was my question. We ALL know trigger control and sight alignment is paramount because that is how we hit the target.
But, how does the flincher do that when he has learned not to flinch because of dry firing but still jerks the devil out of the trigger while at the same time stiffens up like a statue, because of the recoil he knows he is going to get that his empty gun didn't have. he really hasn't learned to manage recoil because he dry fired twenty thousand times and thinks he has because he read dry firing will help with the recoil.
Reality is awful at times isn't it.

NO,, all Dry Firing does is allow you to master the fundamentals of shooting the pistol. IE Grip, Sight Alignment and Trigger Control. These are going to be necessary skills to have in order to even begin to cope with heavy recoil. You have no chance at all without these being second nature.

Usually this is coupled with live firing so as to give the guy some idea of the recoil he will be having to control/endure, and then working up to the heavier recoil.

It seems that you are only considering someone starting out as a complete newbie shooting a .44 or larger gun. We all know that these guns are in a class by themselves. But if you don't have the fundamentals firmly in place you are never going to shoot one well.

You can't learn these fundamentals shooting full power loads, because the gun will beat you to death before you get it figured out.

When I got my first S&W M29 in 1978 I went out in the Oilfields in Taft CA and started blazing away with a box of .44 Mag factory ammo. I got into this trip about 12 rounds before I realized that it was not all roses. I had also purchased a box of .44 Specials which I was able to shoot fairly well. so I started there and worked up to the heavier loads.

I then installed a set of Pachmayer Rubber Grips which made shooting my reloaded .44 Magnums with 24 gr of 296 very tolerable. However I also dry fired that gun a thousand times at my TV at night, and when I went to shoot on Saturday morning I had my grip and the rest down pat. I could easily take 50 rounds of full house .44 Mags at that time but usually ended up shooting more .44 Specials loaded up to about 1100fps, as they shot to the sights and were easier on me. I was also 28 years old.

BUT,,, I could still hit a 5 gallon can at 125 yards every single time, offhand with Magnum loads, and do it on demand.

I couldn't have done that without the dry firing practice. My grip 40 years later is nearly identical to what I was doing back then.

The fundamentals of anything are there for a reason. That reason is,,, that without them you can't knowingly do what you are trying to do,,, You might get lucky and have some measure of success,,, but essentially "You don't know , what you don't know."

That makes you a fool according to Socrates.

But to answer your question,, that's how Dry Firing helps you learn to take the hit, because if you can't hold the gun right you will never be able to take the hit. One comes before the other.

Randy

[44MAG#1]

Uh huh. Well. Okay then.

[44man]

Muscle memory is fleeting and goes away. I know that because a month off will have you start again. It can be only a few days.

[robertbank]

I have to say I am with Randy on this one. Dry firing is like practicing your putting on a rug. You have to learn a repetitive putting stroke and you can do this on any smooth rug. Once you develop the repeatable stroke you are on your way to being a decent putter. I believe the same thing is true with fry firing. The more you work at the fundamentals the more likely you are to be able to repeat them at the range. They won't last though. If you plan on staying good you just have to put in the time and dry firing will do that. As for flinching once you got the yips you got um and after that is just becomes a case of trying to live with them best you can. I agree they are mental but they are also physical.

Take Care

Bob

[W.R.Buchanan]

It's good we could agree on this fine point.:mrgreen:

Proficiency in anything, is nothing more than repeatedly applying the fundamentals of that discipline over and over to obtain a goal.

Advanced Techniques are always based on Fundamental Actions and if you are trying to fix a simple problem with an Advanced Technique, you probably don't understand the fundamental to that technique in the first place.

That's all there is to it,,, but people always try to make it harder, by coming up with all sorts of variations of what they were taught. They are essentially doing what they "thought" you told them. This is because they didn't understand exactly what you said and try to make it work any way they can. Thus bad habits form and failure follows. Been There, Done That. This can also come from having too many teachers, none of which are saying the same thing the same way. Thus Misunderstanding ensues.

This is why I push going to a real shooting school when you are just starting out. They will teach you the Fundamentals correctly.

Then it is up to you to practice them correctly until they become second nature.

Randy

[44MAG#1]

The only thing I agree with is dry firing will teach is sight alignment, trigger control and help to condition ones muscles to hold the gun in a smaller movement area.
BUT not on the mental aspect of handling recoil.
I also don't believe in the tooth fairy and Santa clause.
After rereading that last sentence it sounds smart aleck. Didn't mean it that way just using as a ha ha type thing to go along with what I said was my belief.

[44man]

I used to shoot squirrels with my Mark II's. I was pretty deadly and peeled a lot from the tops of trees.
Then I got the big BFR's, got used to them and the weight. Now the little 22's wave all over. The old jerk behind the gun just can't hold them still anymore. It is like the tail waving the dog!

[Blackwater]

You know, there's actually some truth on both sides of the argument over whether or not dry firing will help cure a flinch. It's helped a good many, but not all. And in the end, all have to finally work themselves up to not flinching with a good, heavy caliber revolver. Like most things in life, the "secret" is to keep trying and experimenting until you find what clicks for YOU. We're all individuals, and what works for one of us doesn't ALWAYS work across the boart. But in anything regarding shooting, it's always a good idea to talk to folks with the most experience, and let them relate what worked for them. Excitable folks may always flinch. Calmer, more stoic types may never really be bothered by it. Most like somewhere in that big "in between" space. Health problems can bring a man who's never flinched to flinching. All sorts of angles and "what ifs" involved, so like most things, there's no short, pat answer. And the only REAL answer for any of us is to just keep shooting and trying stuff. Most who flinch can start off with light loads, and over time work up to the full house magnums. But I'd stick with THAT gun and caliber, and just download it if I wanted to try milder loads.

I still think the biggest part of most flinches involves the muzzle report. But again, that's not necessarily true for ALL shooters, so .... we're back to just keep on trying stuff over time until you DO find what actaully works. The more you shoot, the closer you can be sure you're getting to that day when you overcome your flinch. I just got a new set of ear muffs that are rated at 34 DB noise reduction, and they're the best I've ever used, barr none! They're made by Walker, which I assume is the "game ear" folks. They've been a revelation to me! Now that I've already got that permanent ringing in my ears 24/7/365, I am VERY appreciative of the best muffs I can find. Wasn't even in Bass Pro to get muffs, but saw their 34 DB rating and just couldn't live without them. And they were only $25 at Bass Pro Shops! Noise isn't the problem for all flinchers, but it's been the problem for enough I've taught (and tried to) that I always start out with muffs, and NEVER let them take them off until after they're good enough and quick enough and "natural" enough that I know they can defend themselves very effectively. And once women learn that the recoil really isn't anything like they'd heard it was (wearing muffs), they tend to get really good really quickly! They listen and don't argue back like many men do. Men seem to have a penchant for, once they've made up their minds about something, they seem to think it's dishonorable to learn something different! So some just stay stuck in their flinching, or whatever their problem may be. ALLOW yourself to think of the recoil differently, and the flinch tends to go away a lot faster, at least in most cases. Recoil IS physical and "kick" is mostly in the mind, and it's very hard to change folks' minds these days. But if they're open to re-thinking the problem, it's surprising how much better they can do, almost overnight. Determination can be a big part of it, too.

Your attitude tends to indicate to me that you're probably not that far off from getting to be a pretty good pistolero! Hope some of this helps?

[robertbank]

I used to shoot squirrels with my Mark II's. I was pretty deadly and peeled a lot from the tops of trees.
Then I got the big BFR's, got used to them and the weight. Now the little 22's wave all over. The old jerk behind the gun just can't hold them still anymore. It is like the tail waving the dog!

Something about the ageing process. It isn't for the faint of heart. It does beat the alternative but unfortunately it is not a permanent solution as we all know.

Take Care

Bob

[44man]

Will God let us hunt deer? If not I am coming back to shoot! I have had a lot of experiences with ghosts so I should be able to open the safe. :bigsmyl2: But could I work the BBQ?
I just got both eyes fixed and am back to 20-20 so years have been added.
Strangest was when I kept smelling cigarette smoke in the family room. John, the original owner smoked heavy. I am allergic to it so I told him to smoke outside and it never came back. How can you smoke if dead? Can a ghost handle recoil?

[Drm50]

I've got a SBH that I've had since a kid. My old man bought it off a guy who won it at a function
for $50 NIB, in 1964. Dad never could shoot it because of trigger guard. We shot 22.5g of 2400
& 240g Kieth hp/ GC. There was a big learning period. Gun got a trigger job and is smooth as silk.
It does shoot hi at close range, you run out of adjustment, so higher front is needed. I still have
this 44, and wouldn't get rid off it. The SA is not the easiest revolver to shoot accurately, the long
hammer fall, the trigger( especially on the New Model). Anymore the only thing I use the old SBH
for is deer hunting, with magnum loads. I still shoot a lot of 44, but at 44sp. loads, out of S&W
M29s. They are easier for most people to shoot accurately, because of quicker lock time. I say
hang in there, I shot several hundred before I got in the groove. The one thing I can say is the
Ruger SBH is the best SA 44 you can get.

[W.R.Buchanan]

DRM50: one of the things I found out about the S&W Revolvers is that with heavy loads the punish the web of you hand much more than the Rugers do. It is all about the design of the grip. I know putting the Pachmayer Rubber Grips on my M29 made all the difference in the world.

As the gun rolls back in recoil the grip on the S&W tends to prevent it from fully tilting in your hand because of that big bump at the top of the grip area.

The Ruger on the other hand rolls in your hand as there is no protrusion on the grip to limit that travel. you can' only limit the travel by actually holding onto the gun ,,, Tight.

The Ruger Bisley Grip takes that one step farther by increasing the surface area on the back side of the grip to spread out the impulse over a larger area thus reducing the felt recoil.

It should be noted that John Linebaugh builds his Hand Cannons on Ruger Bisley frames,,, probably for this reason. The video on his home page at www.customsixguns.com (http://www.customsixguns.com) pretty much tells the story.

Randy

[Forrest r]

It's good we could agree on this fine point.:mrgreen:

Proficiency in anything, is nothing more than repeatedly applying the fundamentals of that discipline over and over to obtain a goal.

Advanced Techniques are always based on Fundamental Actions and if you are trying to fix a simple problem with an Advanced Technique, you probably don't understand the fundamental to that technique in the first place.

That's all there is to it,,, but people always try to make it harder, by coming up with all sorts of variations of what they were taught. They are essentially doing what they "thought" you told them. This is because they didn't understand exactly what you said and try to make it work any way they can. Thus bad habits form and failure follows. Been There, Done That. This can also come from having too many teachers, none of which are saying the same thing the same way. Thus Misunderstanding ensues.

This is why I push going to a real shooting school when you are just starting out. They will teach you the Fundamentals correctly.

Then it is up to you to practice them correctly until they become second nature.

Randy

W R all your posts about recoil sure do mean allot considering you kept posting how you couldn't handle sd loads in a 44spl because of too much recoil. Heck loads you complained about my girlfriend shoots regularly.

You want to get rid of recoil, dry fire isn't the answer. The reloading bench is.
Load dummy rounds (no bang when you hit the loud button), mild loads, hot loads and a bunch of them. Take old bullets you have laying around, any powders you have 1/4# of this left over, 1/2# of that. You're not reloading for accuracy, you're reloading for report/recoil. Load up 300/400 rounds this way and put them in a box and mix them up.

Take a friend to the range with you and have them load the sbh for you and hand it to you. All you have to do is get on target and pull the trigger. You'll get nothing, light recoil, medium recoil and heavy recoil. You're flinch will show up real quick. And the only way to get rid of it is to concentrate on the front sight, the grip and the trigger. 3 or 4 range sessions of this shooting 100 rounds a trip will not only put your flinch in check. It will teach you to have a consistent grip, gun control.

From there find a accurate range load that is comfortable to you. You want to be able to shoot at least 100 to 200 rounds a range session working on accuracy. Accuracy ='s shotgun shells @50ft, golfballs @25yds, can's @50yds, etc. As your accuracy increases shooting your range/plinking loads work in some hotter test loads.

After 300/400 rounds of mixed (dummy to hot loads) ammo and 500/600 rounds of target/plinking ammo. When you get to the point you have 800/1000 mixed and plinking rounds down the tube you will be at a crossroads, you'll either be able to control your flinch or the shb isn't your cup of tea.

Keep in mind everyone different. People like different grips, bbl lengths, pistol weights, length of trigger pull, how the revolver sits in the hands,etc.

[44man]

I watch videos of John shooting very large calibers in light guns. Some so violent the gun wound up next to his left ear, never did I see the gun rotate. I think he was the only guy to control recoil to the side instead of his head.
I hate the Bisley because 1, it is sensitive to hold, 2, I can't get away from the trigger guard and it will turn my knuckle to meat pie. After thousands of rounds from them I shot 1 good group.
I can shoot 100 rounds from my BFR .475 or .500 JRH at a sitting but a Freedom .475 was put down after 5 shots until my friend bought the rubber grips. Then I was able to shoot 1/2" at 50 yards with no pain.
Nobody ever shot all 6 shots from my Vaquero with 335 gr boolits until I put Pachmeyer's on it.
Some love pretty, shiny grips to show off but can't shoot them.
Guys say rubber rubs skin off, GET A GRIP, it is not supposed to slide around.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Forrest: I think you missed something in my posts about handling recoil... I never said I couldn't handle it. I said I didn't do it needlessly. It is pointless to shoot heavy loads at paper and tin cans. Also my explanations about how to go about learning to take it are not the end all, they are just suggestions about understanding what the fundamentals can do for you. Without the fundamentals firmly in place you are going to suck no matter how much you shoot.

I guess you have some kind of problem with me or my explanations which is not my problem, I'm not going anywhere. I don't comment on things I haven't done, or beyond citing someone else's experience that has proven to be reliable over time. I never claim that their experience is mine, I only relate what they have proven to be true. You obviously don't think much of Brian Pearce. However he's a friend of mine, and him and his boys shoot more in one week than any of us will shoot in a lifetime. His information makes it possible for many of us to shoot better as he's already done most of the ground work and saves us endless searching for success.

But after shooting .44's for the last 38 years I have some idea of what I am taking about as well. Pretty sure that getting hit by any .44 cal slug at any speed will hurt real bad, and I don't need to have done it, or have it done to me to know its true. Common Sense?

The only pistols I have are .40's .44's and .45's. Today I shot 40 .44 mags with 22 gr of 296 in them in my SBH Bisley. It weighs over 3 lbs so it's not a big deal. I also shot some heavy .44 Special Loads with 18 gr of 296 in my BH Bisley, It weighs right at 3lbs so it's no big deal either. Then I hit the Turkey at 150 meters with the 696 with a cream puff load in it. The only revolvers I own are .44's, and I can shoot them with a variety of loads,,,, but I tend to shoot different loads in different guns as those loads shoot to the sights, and are appropriate for that which I am using the gun for..

I bought the 696 to shoot IDPA with and as a walking around gun. For IDPA you don't really need super duper loads as accuracy and follow up shots are more important than power because those Paper Targets won't know the difference, and I have killed everyone I've shot at.

I normally shoot my .45-70 with 330 gr boolits at 1600fps once a month at the short range event, but shot the pistols today instead cuz you got me all interested in them again. That's 40+ rounds in 2 hours. Plus a few more after just to get rid of the boolits. Sometimes I shoot my .44 Magnum Marlin at this event with the same .44 mag loads. I'm usually in the 25-30/40 range with that gun.

I shoot my .30-06 or my .303 Enfield with fairly peppy loads at long range silhouette once a month. That's 40 rounds in about 3 hours.

Never said I couldn't take the recoil, I just don't do it unnecessarily. And I never have done it just to prove I could. As far as shooting 300-400 random loads in one sitting, I don't personally know anyone who can do that. If for no other reason than there isn't enough time in a day to do it and achieve anything meaningful. And if they did they would have amassed so many bad habits that they wouldn't be able to hit anything ever again.

If you want to shoot your 18 oz Bulldogs with heavy loads have at it. But the things you talk about aren't what most guys here are into, and there is plenty of experience here. We don't get to shoot that many people, so only shooting with that end result in mind is not what I or the vast majority of people here are looking to accomplish in the hobby. Plenty of other things to shoot at.

That's not to saying we couldn't do it, all that takes is "willing."

Randy

[44MAG#1]

Volumes can be spoken and written about handling recoil. It still is without experiencing heavy recoil one will not be able to learn to endure it.
It is mental.

[44man]

I only shoot my hunting loads all year for several reasons. I shoot mostly 100 yards and these loads are the most accurate plus it keeps me in shape for deer.
I did shoot light boolits with Unique for fun long ago but it is rare indeed. I admit it is fun.
My bigger bores have never seen light loads except to test a powder like HS-6. They have never seen jacketed either.
Recoil does not bother me unless the wrong grips and blood starts to fly. Been there, done that and still did not miss a milk jug at 200 yards. Not my gun, SBH with wood panels from Creedmore. Sharp, square trigger guard is nasty. If you have pain, change the grips.
Had a friend that loved the Bisley with smooth grips for looks. He used a thick, padded glove and had to tape his trigger finger with Band Aids because he cut it on the frame. I shot most of his guns bare handed except one I refused to shoot, 50 Alaskan with shiny Bisley's. That gun split the top of his head.
For me, NEVER a Bisley for heavy loads. It was not made for recoil, it was made for one hand shooting target with those wimp loads long ago to get sight alignment. Sam Colt got it right the first time. Seems some more modern rag writer said it "rolls" to get the hammer closer to the thumb and it has hung on. I really hate to see it repeated. Like holding a .458 an inch from your shoulder.

[robertbank]

Volumes can be spoken and written about handling recoil. It still is without experiencing heavy recoil one will not be able to learn to endure it.
It is mental.

Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. You would have a hard time convincing my right wrist that is is solely mental after firing one round of 500 S&W ...it darn well hurt. Not as much as my Rossi 44mag 20" barrel did though. With the steel curved butt plate it brought tears to my eyes. A proper recoil pad and a squared off butt plate cured that issue in a hurry.

Take Care

Bob

[44man]

Is it CRAZY? What we shoot by hand can be pain from a rifle. I am not up to a .500 S&W from a lever gun.

[robertbank]

Is it CRAZY? What we shoot by hand can be pain from a rifle. I am not up to a .500 S&W from a lever gun.

If I had not experienced it I would not have believed it. It made my #5 Lee Enfield feel like a ***** cat and the #5 can be hurtful as well. With the recoil pad installed, with essentially a flat butt plate the gun is fine but oh did that steel plate hurt. For those who would suggest placing the curved butt plate on the bicep of the upper arm I can tell you for a fact all that did was move the bruise from my shoulder to my arm and the amount of tears were about the same.

Take Care

Bob

[44MAG#1]

The mental part is what makes us be able to endure anything we endure.
Recoil is just one of those things.
With out experiencing it we cannot learn to endure it.
Recoil is a prime example.
Oh yes, there are physical conditions that can prevent one from enduring heavy recoil.
There is always an exception to anything.
Plus some will never understand the mental part.
Just like getting blood drawn for blood work. Some people will wince, fear, dread, won't look at at the needle or the phlebotomist and will almost get weak even though they have had bloodwork many time and haven't died from the very minor pain yet. Still they have survived to have to pay the painful bill but still they act like they are going through traumatic horror when the have a needle prick.
Still, they haven't learned.

[Blackwater]

There is much in what you say, 44MAG, but after one gets some serious age on, it starts becoming more of a physical matter than mental. So it really kind'a depends on what stage of life you're at. I never thought this until I got ..... uh .... "older" and accrued some helth problems myself. Stuff just happens in life, and what we once were and could do kind'a escapes us over time. A few richly blessed ones retain their ability to handle recoil, but most don't. I know I'm not as immune as I once was, for sure!

[44MAG#1]

Black water,

If you will read my post you will see I said: "Oh yes, there are physical conditions that can prevent one from enduring heavy recoil."

I am almost 64 years old.
I have passed the the top of the hill several years ago. I am not the man I used to be but, some will say I never was the man I thought I was.
How about you?

[W.R.Buchanan]

I do know for sure,,, that the older I get, the better I was. But I do remember having to go to my Chiropractor 3 times to get one of my ribs put back in place after firing 2 Federal 12ga 1 1/4 oz slugs at 1610 fps form my M500. I was behind a hay bale at a 3 gun match and was totally not ready for those hits and I had tears "squirt" out of my eyes. I might have been about to take those hits had I been standing but shooting off the hay bale was just like shooting off a bench except my body position wasn't as good.

I agree there is a mental component to it. If you are standing in front of a Charging Rhino with your 500NE Double Rifle, you probably aren't going to feel the recoil at all.

But the physical side is a bigger component IMO because it does matter how big you are physically. The bigger you are the more body you have to absorb the hit. I am 6' and weigh 210 and should weigh 165.

.44MAG#1. How big are you? It sounds like you are at least 6'4" and weigh 280? :kidding:

Randy

[44MAG#1]

I am 5-10 and weigh 207. I think my height may have shrunken some too.
Getting older and weaker each day it seems.

[44man]

If we knew what we now know, things we dream about. But we have memories.

[45 Dragoon]

44man,
How is the 454 Casull? Do you have any experience with it?

Mike

[44man]

44man,
How is the 454 Casull? Do you have any experience with it?

Mike

Yes, not mine but friends guns. I don't see much difference then a .44. They are not that bad and my Vaquero with the same boolits ate my lunch until I put Pach's on it.
The only thing I don't like with the .454 is the primer. We cut .460 brass to use a Fed 155 primer and groups turned to wonderment. It is not a hard gun to shoot.

[45 Dragoon]

Wow, good to know. Thanks for all the info.!! (There may be a new one for the market soon . . . )

Mike

[Blackwater]

Black water,

If you will read my post you will see I said: "Oh yes, there are physical conditions that can prevent one from enduring heavy recoil."

I am almost 64 years old.
I have passed the the top of the hill several years ago. I am not the man I used to be but, some will say I never was the man I thought I was.
How about you?

Pretty much the same. I can still shoot my Marlin Guide Gun with some serious .45/70 loads, and my .35 Whelen Ackley with some pretty stiff 250 gr. loads, but not as many as I once could. Last time out with the Whelen, I shot 40 rds. and at rd. 37, I didn't hold it firmly enough, and it hurt me some. I was just proud the last 3 rds. were in the group, indicating I didn't flinch. Now? I'd probably flinch on those last 3. An '06 is about all I want for any longish sessions on the bench any more.

At least I can shoot pretty much anything still in a hunting situation and not flinch. How long will that last? Who knows? But I'm finding I'm no longer quite 10 ft. tall and bulletproof any more. I was once the guy all my friends came to to shoot the hard kicking stuff. A light O/U with 2 oz. turkey loads was still more than I wanted to shoot twice, even then, though! We all have our limitations, and they can change over time. In past days, if I ever got hurt by a gun, I'd usually dive back in for more, and just be more careful on subsequent shots. Not so much any more, though!

It's humbling getting old, isn't it? :wink:

[44man]

Worst I ever shot was a 3" mag shotgun with rifled slugs. DARN! yes I shot rifles that went up 90° off hand but the darn shotgun needed a sand bag on my shoulder.
There are limits. A Weatherby big bore can break a collar bone shot prone and some rifles will tear your heart loose.
How I survived what I did is crazy but a big revolver does not hit you the same.

[Blackwater]

Exactly, 44man. One little "trick" I've used in teaching women new to shooting was to make SURE they were wearing good hearing protection, and then telling them they won't understand why I'm going to have them do what I tell them, but if they'll just do it, they'll understand AFTER they do it if they'll just trust me.

Then I have them face downrange and point the pistol downrange at a 45 degree angle downward and with their eyes closed, just fire a cylinder full of rounds into the ground. Every time I've ever done it, they've consistently turned to me and said, "Well that wasn't bad at all! I was expecting it to kick more!"

It's just a simple exercise to keep them from fearing the gun, and once that's gotten out of the way in those few shots, the rest of it proceeds very well, and they've consistently proven VERY deadly simply because they'll listen and follow instructions.

I've become rather a tough rangemaster when teaching males, though. These days, no matter what their age, they seem to want to argue with me and do it "their way," which is usually an emulation of what they've seen on TV. No worse recipe could ever exist for learning to shoot really well.

My grandboys are good about listening, and have some real inate talent to boot, it seems, and they've proven to be excellent marksmen. So far, one shot, one kill for ever deer either has elected to shot at. And most of it is always preceeded by simply getting them to not fear the recoil.

When my eldest grand, now 17, shot his 7/08 for the first time, he told me about it with great glee, "Grandaddy! It doesn't kick at all! It just jumps a little when you pull the trigger!" So now, I've got TWO generations out-shooting me! And nobody could be prouder.

And 90% of it, I think, is just overcoming their fear of recoil right off the bat. It's worked so consistently and so well that it's become my standard practice when teaching anyone, regardless of sex or age, to shoot. And it really makes the job much quicker, easier and more effective. Once fear of recoil is dispelled, the rest is really pretty basic and easy.

And with a handgun, the arms are "shock absorbers," and many can shoot handguns that recoil MUCH easier than they can rifles, due to that "shock absorber" effect. It's really kind'a amazing, really, but that's how it is.

[44man]

Exactly, 44man. One little "trick" I've used in teaching women new to shooting was to make SURE they were wearing good hearing protection, and then telling them they won't understand why I'm going to have them do what I tell them, but if they'll just do it, they'll understand AFTER they do it if they'll just trust me.

Then I have them face downrange and point the pistol downrange at a 45 degree angle downward and with their eyes closed, just fire a cylinder full of rounds into the ground. Every time I've ever done it, they've consistently turned to me and said, "Well that wasn't bad at all! I was expecting it to kick more!"

It's just a simple exercise to keep them from fearing the gun, and once that's gotten out of the way in those few shots, the rest of it proceeds very well, and they've consistently proven VERY deadly simply because they'll listen and follow instructions.

I've become rather a tough rangemaster when teaching males, though. These days, no matter what their age, they seem to want to argue with me and do it "their way," which is usually an emulation of what they've seen on TV. No worse recipe could ever exist for learning to shoot really well.

My grandboys are good about listening, and have some real inate talent to boot, it seems, and they've proven to be excellent marksmen. So far, one shot, one kill for ever deer either has elected to shot at. And most of it is always preceeded by simply getting them to not fear the recoil.

When my eldest grand, now 17, shot his 7/08 for the first time, he told me about it with great glee, "Grandaddy! It doesn't kick at all! It just jumps a little when you pull the trigger!" So now, I've got TWO generations out-shooting me! And nobody could be prouder.

And 90% of it, I think, is just overcoming their fear of recoil right off the bat. It's worked so consistently and so well that it's become my standard practice when teaching anyone, regardless of sex or age, to shoot. And it really makes the job much quicker, easier and more effective. Once fear of recoil is dispelled, the rest is really pretty basic and easy.

And with a handgun, the arms are "shock absorbers," and many can shoot handguns that recoil MUCH easier than they can rifles, due to that "shock absorber" effect. It's really kind'a amazing, really, but that's how it is.
Darn, what a great answer. I know about women. My future wife shot my flat top long ago. I snuck in full house loads. I asked after and she said "some where louder." She out shot her brothers and friends all day. We did not have muffs or plugs then. I was in the army with no protection until the bazooka was shot. They gave us cotton to stuff in our ears but even 100 yards away it hurt.

[Groo]

Groo here
As usual many +1's to 44 man.
The role that 44 man speaks of is, the GRIP is not to SLIP .
The "role" is in fact the "rolling" of the wrist and the "lift" of the forarm.
By letting the gun "run" a little , this redirects the kick and spreads it out over distance and time.
Once you learn to "ride" the kick in this way , very heavy loads can be shot easily.
This is why many small men ,women , and even children can shoot hard kickers ,where a large man gets pounded.
The big guy is trying to resist the kick where the others are riding it