How about heating the lead bullets THEN apply the powder coat?

[tiger762]

Just had an idea I'll have to wait 'til the weekend to see if it is feasible. Heat a tray of bullets to 300 degrees or so. Use the smaller drum of my wet tumbler (BiggDawg). Add some amount of powder (to be determined) and the hot bullets, then tumble for some amount of time (also T.B.D.) The powder will start to coat everything it touches. It will apply too heavily to the first bullets, but the constant motion will move the powder around (hopefully) until all surfaces of all bullets have been coated.

[B. Lumpkin]

Will the hot bullets melt the tumbler? Sounds like a recipe for a sticky, gooey, mess of clumped up bullets.

[fishingsetx]

I heat mine before coating, but I espc

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[popper]

but the constant motion will move the powder around (hopefully) until all surfaces of all bullets have been coated. I suggest you use a container inside the tumbler. If you've ever played with melted PC you'll understand my comment. I ESPC cold boolits, let them set for a day and the powder is still stuck.

[tiger762]

That's a valid concern, but I use the lowest temperature necessary to get the powder coat to liquify. The toaster oven thermostat is measuring the air temperature but with radiant heat transfer I have noticed that the bullets will be much hotter than the temperature of the air inside the oven. This has to do with the emissivity of the powder coating substance itself. Sort of like a white object and a black object being left in the Sun. The black object cannot radiate heat as well, so its temperature rises until it can reach thermal equilibrium.

I could use a metal paint can if the 300 degree temperature proves too much for the PVC drum.


Will the hot bullets melt the tumbler? Sounds like a recipe for a sticky, gooey, mess of clumped up bullets.

[tiger762]

I like that idea, a LOT. To see immediate effect of how much powder is applied and then go heavier (or lighter) as the case may be. I also have been using electrostatic application (Eastwood). I did a batch yesterday that looked like they were dusted sufficiently, but the finished product has a lot of clear spots. Could be I was using a "translucent" powder that really belongs on a valve cover. I can confirm the HF Red goes on thick and stays thick. I have about 30 different colors. Was trying out different ones. I'll try ESPC *after* heating the bullets and see if I get better results.


I heat mine before coating, but I espc

[B. Lumpkin]

It sounds interesting and I look forward to the updates. Now, what about the issue of the bullets getting all the sharp edges rounded, and dings/bumps from the tumbling motion? I own a Bigg Dawg tumbler and it has a pretty decent RPM so I would be concerned about bullet damage.

As it is, the SS media peens case mouths. I know you won't have SS pins in while tumbling bullets, lol. Just wanted to point out that the RPM and agitation inside the drum are enough to peen a case mouth so I'd be concerned about the bullets tumbling in the drum beating each other up.

[tiger762]

I'm thinking to start with an empty metal paint can but there will need to be a way to lift the bullets as they tumble.


I suggest you use a container inside the tumbler. If you've ever played with melted PC you'll understand my comment. I ESPC cold boolits, let them set for a day and the powder is still stuck.

[tiger762]

In a way, I am thinking it could be useful for the bullets to peen themselves, to expose fresh lead and maybe knock some oxidation off. I have made up some pure lead 0.452 18-deg TC with RCECO swage die set. Bullets without the jacket, in other words. Very basic geometry (cylinder plus truncated cone).


It sounds interesting and I look forward to the updates. Now, what about the issue of the bullets getting all the sharp edges rounded, and dings/bumps from the tumbling motion? I own a Bigg Dawg tumbler and it has a pretty decent RPM so I would be concerned about bullet damage. As it is, the SS media peens case mouths.

[B. Lumpkin]

I'm thinking to start with an empty metal paint can but there will need to be a way to lift the bullets as they tumble.

Maybe some form of agitator in the can?

[jeepyj]

Although I don't use the shake and bake method I set my Boolits on the tray preheat for 4-5 minutes then pull out and shoot with a HF sprayer inside a vacuum box so it doesn't dust up the shop. Very easy and very fast method to coat a lot of lead goodies in one evening.

[therealhitman]

Works very well for me. This guy posted it first. Smarter than he sounds.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRVXic3-ztE

[JASON4X4]

There is a guy i think his name is elvis ammo on YouTube that preheats his then shakes and bakes

[NavyVet1959]

I've tried setting the bullets on skillet that was sitting on a portable electric hot plate that was set on low and then dumping them into the container that I use with the ASBBs. It does seem to make a difference.

Ideally, what I would like to try would be to heat the bullets like this and pick them up one by one with some modified forceps that only gripped by 4 points, dip them in a powder fluid bed, and then place them on the tray that it going into the toaster oven. My experiment with the fluid bed didn't come out good though. The aquarium pump that I bought did not produce enough air flow and I haven't pursued this method any further (yet).

http://images.spambob.net/navy-vet-1959/tag.png

[Dragonheart]

To save you some time experimenting; if you heat the bullets to a true 250 degrees and try to tumble you will have a ball of sticky mess. If you keep the bullets under 200 degrees they will start to coat as soon as they hit the powder so it is important to keep them moving. I use a home built tumbler for that purpose and the bullets are dropped into a running tumbler.

Different powders will coat differently and some will coat thicker than others. It is possible to get a coating so thick the bullets will not go through the sizer. I use this method to combat high humidity. I would suggest you start out with a lower temp and go up to where you are satisfied. You must have an accurate thermometer in your oven if you want to get consistent results.

[NavyVet1959]

I recently made an electrostatic fluid bed (ESFB) utilizing an ion generator. My previous experiments with a fluid bed failed due to the aquarium pump not having enough air flow, but I hooked it up to a real air compressor and with a couple of valves and very small orifices, I was able to get an air flow that was about right. The power get attracted to the bullet quite nicely.

Need to work on my technique for holding the bullets with the forceps though...

http://images.spambob.net/navy-vet-1959/static-fluid-bed-03-320w.jpg

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[bigolsmokebomb]

ive used elvis ammo's method with great success. you bake your uncoated boolits for 4 minutes at 140deg and then shake and bake em, no need for bb's and its worked well with smokes powder and HF red. all you really want to do is get the boolits warm so that the PC sticks to them easier and you don't have to use a tumbler or wear out your arms. if you get them too warm the PC will start to melt and you will end up with a gigantic mess that's a major pita to clean up. the 140 for 4 mins gets them at just about the right temp to get great coverage just don't let them sit after they get warm. get em in the powder fast and start shakin.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I found that preheating the boolits before coating like the Eastwood's Instructions state,,, works the best. You seem to get the best and most complete coverage doing it that way.

Randy

[UKShootist]

Works very well for me. This guy posted it first. Smarter than he sounds.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRVXic3-ztE


I've been interested in powder coating, and have tried some of this man's techniques with limited success. He seems to get good results.

BUT

Watching his videos has been the only time on my life that I have been able to physically feel myself getting older every single second of them. He takes about 20 minutes for a video that he could do in 5. I'm glad he's made these videos but it's like watching time lapse in reverse.

[Dragonheart]

Diarrhea mouth seems to be a real problem on YouTube. There is a lot of really good information on the site, but it takes a lot of time and patience to sift through it.

[NavyVet1959]

Reminds me of how they used to describe the Johnny Carson show -- 30 minutes of entertainment *squeezed* into 90 minutes.

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[Grmps]

DON'T over heat the bullets if you are going to tumble lube!!! You will get a big mess the powder coat will melt around the bullets and become a big glob.:groner:

[Dragonheart]

DON'T over heat the bullets if you are going to tumble lube!!! You will get a big mess the powder coat will melt around the bullets and become a big glob.:groner:

And how did you find this out? lol, been there and done that.

I use the preheat method on bullets to overcome high humidity. I also preheat larger items for powder coat. I heat the object in the oven to 400 degree then immediately spray. You can see exactly what the coating will look like as the powder melts and flows on contact. Once it cools I cure as normal.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Diarrhea mouth seems to be a real problem on YouTube. There is a lot of really good information on the site, but it takes a lot of time and patience to sift through it.

Ditto: some of the videos are excruciatingly long and the guys really need to write a script so they don't just meander along for 20+ minutes for a 5 minute subject.

Randy

[Cleatus]

I preheat my boolites before shaking and baking with good success. Slow talkers on youtube can be enhanced by setting the speed to 1.25 or 1.5....I know some of the older timers need some youtube help ;-)

[fishingsetx]

And how did you find this out? lol, been there and done that.

I use the preheat method on bullets to overcome high humidity. I also preheat larger items for powder coat. I heat the object in the oven to 400 degree then immediately spray. You can see exactly what the coating will look like as the powder melts and flows on contact. Once it cools I cure as normal.

This is what I do with my bullets and I dont charge them up. Sitting on aluminum foil, they get a faraday effect around the bases with my eastwood dual voltage gun (tried bith settings) and the powder simply wont penetrate the charge to reach the lube bands. It will if I dont charge the bullets and it sticks as long as they are hot! I even do this with the stainless tumblers I do as a side business.

Guns have only two enemies: rust and politicians!

[RP]

I have preheated my bullets standing on trays then shot them with the gun using old powder that just did not want to work using the static charge. This also helps with the bases and lube groove areas. Only problem I have its hitting the tray on something when moving it around and do not let the oven door slam shut that is a sure fire way to know bullets over lol

[Lloyd Smale]

I don't see the time savings there. I can put a 1000 9mm bullets in my tumbler for 20 minutes and use that time to reload or cast more. Dump them in a collator and then dump them on non stick Reynolds wrap and stick them in the oven. No standing around for 4 minutes and still have to put them in a plastic container. You can even dump them in the container and shake for 2 minutes and dump them out and bake them. Want to save time? I bought a small apartment sized gas range for 25 bucks at a rummage sale and it allows me to bake at a 1000 bullets at a time on two big trays (at least a 1000) not a couple hundred like a toaster oven and it set me back half what even a cheap toaster oven costs. 20 minutes in the tumbler 20 minutes to bake and with a couple 6 cav molds you will have another batch casted while you wait.

[fishingsetx]

I don't see the time savings there. I can put a 1000 9mm bullets in my tumbler for 20 minutes and use that time to reload or cast more. Dump them in a collator and then dump them on non stick Reynolds wrap and stick them in the oven. No standing around for 4 minutes and still have to put them in a plastic container. You can even dump them in the container and shake for 2 minutes and dump them out and bake them. Want to save time? I bought a small apartment sized gas range for 25 bucks at a rummage sale and it allows me to bake at a 1000 bullets at a time on two big trays (at least a 1000) not a couple hundred like a toaster oven and it set me back half what even a cheap toaster oven costs. 20 minutes in the tumbler 20 minutes to bake and with a couple 6 cav molds you will have another batch casted while you wait.If it works for you, thats great. For me, the shake and bake, tumbler, etc methods just didnt work. Maybe its the humidity here, maybe its something else, but if I dump them out in a collator, they wouldnt be coated anymore. I coukd barely get the powder to stick picking them up with hemostats and even then, 30-50% of them werent coated enough and had to be redone. ESPC was the only way I could get them coated enough, especially 9mm.

Guns have only two enemies: rust and politicians!

[Dragonheart]

I am a native of the Texas Gulf Coast, so humidity is something I know all about. Shake & bake by hand works sometimes, but it's slow, time consuming and a lot of effort for old hands and shoulders for the reward of a handful of coated bullets.

The tumbling process is the best for speed, quanity, good quality with little effort. The problem with the tumbling process is standard tumblers are designed to be aggressive; too much so for coating bullets. Yes, it can be done in a unaltered tumbler, but not with the best results. I have been doing this since 2012,so I have tried just about everything. I found altering a tumbler was the ideal solution, allowing for adjusting the amount of vibration.

As you can see this is a small tumbler with a #5 plastic paint bucket. A lid keeps in the powder, if needed, Tightening the rods will adjust the amount of vibration. More surface area is created; I typically coat approximate 300 bullets at a time. The powder will stick using this tumbler, because the tumble doesn't get tired, even if it takes 20 minutes. If the humidity is really high a little preheat and it's a done deal and it is not a fragil coating that easily brushes off, like the cool whip method.

For the very best quality, spray is the way to go, but a creates a very fragile coating. It is a lot more set up, time effort and expense. Plus in high humidity your air must be dry! Meaning in high humidity if you do not have a bank of dry air dryers or a cooler, you are going to have problems with the gun and getting even coverage. Lead is an unusual metal, unlike ferrous metals in that lead has a natural affinity for taking a charge, this is the reason lead is used in batteries. So if getting an uneven coating it is not the lead, your air or the powder is the problem in a properly functioning gun.
210614

[RP]

I am kind of OCD about the finish on my bullets so the extra time it takes me is worth the finish I get standing and spraying sure it may not matter to most but to me it matters alot

[fishingsetx]

I am a native of the Texas Gulf Coast, so humidity is something I know all about. Shake & bake by hand works sometimes, but it's slow, time consuming and a lot of effort for old hands and shoulders for the reward of a handful of coated bullets.

The tumbling process is the best for speed, quanity, good quality with little effort. The problem with the tumbling process is standard tumblers are designed to be aggressive; too much so for coating bullets. Yes, it can be done in a unaltered tumbler, but not with the best results. I have been doing this since 2012,so I have tried just about everything. I found altering a tumbler was the ideal solution, allowing for adjusting the amount of vibration.

As you can see this is a small tumbler with a #5 plastic paint bucket. A lid keeps in the powder, if needed, Tightening the rods will adjust the amount of vibration. More surface area is created; I typically coat approximate 300 bullets at a time. The powder will stick using this tumbler, because the tumble doesn't get tired, even if it takes 20 minutes. If the humidity is really high a little preheat and it's a done deal and it is not a fragil coating that easily brushes off, like the cool whip method.

For the very best quality, spray is the way to go, but a creates a very fragile coating. It is a lot more set up, time effort and expense. Plus in high humidity your air must be dry! Meaning in high humidity if you do not have a bank of dry air dryers or a cooler, you are going to have problems with the gun and getting even coverage. Lead is an unusual metal, unlike ferrous metals in that lead has a natural affinity for taking a charge, this is the reason lead is used in batteries. So if getting an uneven coating it is not the lead, your air or the powder is the problem in a properly functioning gun.
210614

I agree except for 2 points. High humidity doesnt normally affect my gun but had a huge effect on DT by hand. Also, uneven coating can be caused by the faraday effect not allowing the powder to penetrate into the corner creates by the bullet setting in the foil.

The odd thing about ESPC is that some days, it goes on smooth with zero issues and some days are an absolute nightmare. There is no rhyme or reason as to why. I tried tracking the temp/humidity to see if there was a correlation, but after 3 months of powder coating almost daily, I never could figure out a pattern.



Guns have only two enemies: rust and politicians!

[Dragonheart]

I would suggest installing a ground rod and cable back to your metal spray pan. Ground rods are available at the home stores and are not expensive. The ground is also a big benefit if you weld and especially high frequency welding.
The ground will take care of one side of the problem, but the one day chicken one day feathers and uneven coating is a symptom of an air problem. For example my compressor air goes through three 20" coalescing filters before going into the storage tank. Each coalescing filter has a drain to remove accumulated moisture. The air from the tank goes through a particle filter, regulator and through a membrane filter before reaching the gun. I don't think there is any place more humid than where I live and I do not have any problems when I spray. I think if you try the above your spray problems will vanish.

[Ronald]

Another trick that does not require a second step, it to cast hot so they frost. The PC sticks better in shake & bake. As Harrison pointed out, 50 years ago, frosting has no effect on boolit performance.

[fishingsetx]

I would suggest installing a ground rod and cable back to your metal spray pan. Ground rods are available at the home stores and are not expensive. The ground is also a big benefit if you weld and especially high frequency welding.
The ground will take care of one side of the problem, but the one day chicken one day feathers and uneven coating is a symptom of an air problem. For example my compressor air goes through three 20" coalescing filters before going into the storage tank. Each coalescing filter has a drain to remove accumulated moisture. The air from the tank goes through a particle filter, regulator and through a membrane filter before reaching the gun. I don't think there is any place more humid than where I live and I do not have any problems when I spray. I think if you try the above your spray problems will vanish.

Thanks for the info.

8' ground rod already in place. Air is filtered through one bastion coalescing filter and then through a home built dessicant filter and comes out just over -125 degrees dewpoint (borrowed our dewpoint analizer from work to check it). I have zero issues with anything except tight inside corners. I have a side business custom powdercoating the stainless tumblers (yeti and similar) and have been doing it for several years. I have no issue going up to 4 coats but sometimes It wants to spot at 5 coats and above. The funny thing is, I never had that issue with the HF gun I bought several years ago even just using the alligator clip, but the eastwood gun I use now causes problems. I thing it was because ot the FH gun's lower voltage (9kv). The higher the voltage, the worse the effect. My eastwood runs at (15kv or 25kv depending on the switch setting). I would use the HF gun for bullets, but I gave it and my toaster oven away to a guy wanting to get into powder coating cast bullets.

I really wish I could justify an auto regulating gun like the KoolKote 2.0 or similar, but with the cup business winding down (I knew it was a fad when I got into it), its just not worth the cost.

Guns have only two enemies: rust and politicians!

[rsrocket1]

I don't see the time savings there. I can put a 1000 9mm bullets in my tumbler for 20 minutes and use that time to reload or cast more. Dump them in a collator and then dump them on non stick Reynolds wrap and stick them in the oven. No standing around for 4 minutes and still have to put them in a plastic container. You can even dump them in the container and shake for 2 minutes and dump them out and bake them. Want to save time? I bought a small apartment sized gas range for 25 bucks at a rummage sale and it allows me to bake at a 1000 bullets at a time on two big trays (at least a 1000) not a couple hundred like a toaster oven and it set me back half what even a cheap toaster oven costs. 20 minutes in the tumbler 20 minutes to bake and with a couple 6 cav molds you will have another batch casted while you wait.

Most of the time it's dry enough to simply massage the bullets in HF red for a minute or two in a 1 Gallon Ziplock bag. Last week, it was really humid so I put them in the vibratory tumbler for 2-4 minutes. I forgot about 1 batch and it tumbled for 15 minutes. The bullets were coated incredibly well, but I noticed the red powder was notably darker compared to the stuff right out of the jar. I have a feeling that the darkening was due to lead dust mixed into the powder.

That's not a good thing. Take a look at your coated bullet powder and see if it's darker than the virgin stuff. If it is, then lead is pulverizing and the lead dust is getting into the powder mix.