Has anyone loaded cast in the 5.7x28 FN?

[Blackwater]

I have this old Rem M-580 action and I've thought about making it into some sort of shortened .22 CF that I could shoot cast in. It's ensure that I can shoot .22 LR equivalent to maybe .22 WRM level loads, and be reloadable. I've pretty well settled on either the .22 Squirrel, a shortened version of the K-Hornet, or the 5.7x28. The Hornet's brass is nice and thin, which could make for easy sealing of the case in the chamber, which would be an asset, I think, for the very mild loads. A WSRM primer would probably power a .22 cal. pellet designed for pellet rifles for gallery, quiet small game/pest eradicator loads, too.

The 5.7x28 looks like it'd have a much sturdier case, and I wonder about the .22 LR level loads - whether they'd expand enough to seal off the chamber.

Does anyone have any experience loading this ctg. down with cast? If so, I'd really like to hear of your experience.

[runfiverun]

the 5.7 is a fairly sturdy case.
but it isn't any thicker than a 30 caliber bullet's jacket.
which they are great at making.

I think I'd go with another/the other option.

[NavyVet1959]

Forget the 5.7... Go with the .22 TCM... You can made the brass from .223 or .300 AAC brass that has the neck split if you so desire.

[quilbilly]

Or a Hornet

[Blackwater]

Well, another great idea quashed, but I suspected that might be the case. I just want a .22 LR/WRF/WMR type centerfire equivalent. Many don't realize that the fly in the ointment with .22 LR and accuracy is that heeled bullet. The case and forward section of the bullet are the same dia., and the part inside the case has to be a few thou undersized to fit the case. This and the various chamber reamers for it is why different ammo can shoot so differently in most .22 RF's.

.22 Mag bullets are made just like most CF bullets, and the shank is the same dia. all the way from ojive to base. This enhances accuracy potential. I've long thought that .22 WRF level performance would be a bit of a boon for much woods romping, especially on larger stuff like beavers, bobcat and coyotes. And one can really use all the accuracy one can get in the white oak woods, where the shots often have to or need to be threaded through smallish holes in the limbs, leaves and twigs of the canopies.

Thanks for the comments. The gunsmith I talked to, Dennis Olsen, said he'd done a number of conversions on this action to the 5.7, but had never heard of them being loaded with cast, so I seem to be on a rather less than well tested path with the idea. He was very kind, and I didn't waste his valuable time. Great guy, and I think I'd have complete confidence in his work. I think he does the work for James Calhoon's .19 cal. and other conversions. Making the new front end for the bolt in centerfire is something I've never done anything like before, but it's apparently not all that unusual. Just a bit spendy.

But it'd be a nice, mid-wt. woods romper. With a big pistol on my side, I'd be about as close to invincible in the woods as we can get this side of the Great Veil. And ready for just about anything, with minimal wt. to carry. A nice afternoon in the woods just romping around and seeing what's there is a really nice way to spend some time.

[leftiye]

Take a look at the .22 CCM. Brass is available from Schroeder in San Diego. Not too cheap, but not too bad either. I make .22 mag centerfire out of it (another option) by shaving a few thou off of the head end. As far as .25 auto or some of the other thangs out there go for stalking rifles, the 25 Hornet is so much easier than using 5.7X 28 brass and reworking it to heck and gone. Works fine in revolters too.

[Blackwater]

Wow. Anyone ever notice how some of the great ideas we get turn out to be not quite as simple as we'd originally thought? All points well taken, and thanks. For the very lightest loads, it seems like a skinny case would be an advantage, since the primer flash over a small charge would more readily and uniformly ignite a charge laying in the bottom of the case. Therefore, the fatter the case, the less likely it seems that it'd work well for the lightest loads, which I'd probably use the most of. I thought I was ready for this, but .... on second thought, maybe not quite yet. The .32 H&R might work, but I'd lose the option of a higher velocity option, and thus, the range a Hornet, etc. might offer. It'd be about as cheap to just go buy a CZ-527 Hornet, probably.

Got the old Rem 580 cheap, due to broken stock, but converting to centerfire might be possible in a do it yourself way if I can get access to a lathe and a mill. Mostly, I just have the yen to try it, and come up with something useful and reloadable. The .25 auto would be a dandy squirrel getter. The .25 Hornet is very neat, but uses more lead and powder, so would be louder, too. May wind up getting a suppressor for it, too, and the less powder burned, the better.

I guess it's like when I went to buy my first boat. The owner asked me what I was looking for, and I told him I wanted a "big, little, fast slow boat." He looked at me with one of those RCA Victor dog's tilted heads type expression. I don't think he'd heard that one before. But I basically got what I wanted, and still have that old boat, though it's had considerable wear on it now. For me, these projects sometimes take years, and I've had this little action for a long time now. Need to get on with it somehow. I'm now thinking the .22 Squirrel may be my best bet. It'll still be a single shot, so no feeding issues to deal with, which makes that part simpler. I guess I've got more thinking to do.

[Digital Dan]

Blackwater, since you seem objective driven with the project and willing to step well outside the norm in putting this together, take some time to consider your goals. Presumably you are seeking substantial latitude with velocity and at the same time require precision. The .22 Squirrel might do the trick of course, but that isn't to say you can't find more utility with larger caliber rounds, if not greater precision. The case for the Squirrel is not unlike the old British .297-250, or .297 Rook, which actually a true .250 caliber round by Yankee standards. In point of fact the .297 case can be made with Hornet brass.

If you wish to work both sub and super sonic within the velocity range of the rimfire trio, you might give due consideration to anything of larger caliber and not really spend much more powder in the process. My work with the .30 Sneezer was quick to find nominal velocity in the 950-1000 fps range with as little as 4.0 grains of 800X, and this in a much larger case capacity than the Squirrel. ES numbers were low teens for 5 shot strings using a 180 grain bullet. I've not pursued high velocity (supersonic) but know full well it will run up to something around 1300-1500 fps without breaking a sweat using the same bullet. I'm using a 12" twist and guarantee I've got more latitude in bullet weight options than you will with a .22 bore due to twist limitations. Large changes in weight make velocity management easy.

Don't know there's any reason to go .30 cal with your project, but the .25 screams for some thought in my opinion. 60-120 grains of lead can cover a lot of ground. You will still have round ball options for use in the garden if inclined and if loaded properly will give better accuracy than .22 pellets.

I have two rifles Dennis O. built/worked on by the way. The working rifle is a rebarreled 700 ADL in .250 Savage and is the most accurate rifle I own. The .416 Rigby is a work of art and stupid accurate as well. The difference is 1/4 MOA versus 1/2 MOA at 100 yards. He is top drawer, start to finish.

Dan

[NavyVet1959]

How about a .30 carbine necked down to a .22?

....... (quick google search) ........

OK, it's been done... Its called the .22 Spitfire...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Spitfire

I still say that if you have a thick enough barrel, the .22TCM shows promise. It's a high pressure round and can be made from .223 brass. Factory ammo is 2000 fps in a M1911 and 2800 fps in a rifle. Instead of that, just cast a lead bullet and put it over a couple of grains of Red Dot or some other fast powder for a .22LR replacement.

[leftiye]

Also called the .22 Johnson. Speaking of 580 Remingtons, Schroeder also makes centerfire bolts for them.

[Blackwater]

Thanks for all the comments, guys. I've considered all the options, the .25 and the Carbine necked down. What I've settled on (tentatively?) is the .22 because I want to use the least amount of lead and powder possible. I have the other stuff. The larger calibers wouldn't be appreciated much around here. We're pretty well populated here, and it's increasingly hard to find safe places to shoot. And the college's presence ensures plenty of liberals and PC sensibilities. But get out in the woods, away from all that, and it's still a wonderful world. With a good .22, one can feed one's self awfully good if he knows how to move in and hunt those woods. Squirrels in particular seem to be "edgier" these days. I wonder if it's the coyote population doing that to them? Not many hunt them any more, except a few old diehards like me. Squirrel perlew is some fine eatin'!

The little 580 action has been converted to some significant calibers, like .357, and all would be fun, but for this one, I'm just thinking I want a .22 so I can use .22 pellets with mag primers and/or maybe a tiny pinch of powder on the low end, for taking out squirrels in our yard, on up to something in the range of the WRM and maybe even the Hornet on the top end. As a single shot, it'd be no big trick to change out the ammo for whatever target you want to take and the range it's at. A small .22 just seems to be the best of all possible choices, and would fill a niche in my gun selections that's not really filled right now. With all the deer I've known that have been taken with .22 LR's, it'd certainly do in a pinch, provided it's plenty accurate enough. Head shots at under 100 yds. ought to be duck soup in a pinch. Awfully big stuff has fallen to awfully small bullets if they're just placed rightly.

For me, the little .22 CF would fill a number of niches that I'd like to fill, and it's be the most economical proposition I could imagine. AND it'd let me use cast for all sorts of stuff. I have the Lyman 115438 and 414. Would probably mill off the GC shank of the lighter RN and use the FP one for WRF/WMR type loads, or at least that's the starting theory anyway. And who among us doesn't feel some extra satisfaction when we take things with ammo and bullets we created ourselves? Adds some neat spice to the hunt.

Thanks for all comments. It's helping me zero in on exactly what I really want and why. In projects like this, that's always the most critical part. I'm starting to wish I had half a dozen of these little actions!

[runfiverun]

sounds like you want a 218 BEE to me.

[Hamish]

BW,

Take a look at the 22 Reed Express. Based on 7.62x25 Tokarev, which means it's doable with .38 special brass as a rimmed version. (my next project when I get a round tuit,,,,,)

[Blackwater]

Thanks, again, guys, but the more I think on it, the more convinced I am that I want the smallest case I can practically get, providing only that my fingers be able to grasp it in the shell holder, which lets out the .25 auto necked down, which I think (?) is called the .22 Flea.

And I still think that for the lightest loads, which would only be a pinch of powder in the case, I'd want the smallest diameter at the base that I can get so as to enhance ignition. The larger the base diameter, the lower and further away a pinch of powder would have to be, and thus, the more ignition would likely vary. I keep coming back to the .22 Squirrel, the shortened K-Hornet, but I can't keep my eyes off the 5.7 for its upper end potential, which is Hornet-like. I can see a use for that, and the case dia. is only very slightly larger than the Hornet's. Not having to trim and form cases, and avoiding high priced "custom" dies would be another benefit. Practicality and upper end versatility indicates the 5.7, while the mildest loads and thinner brass tend to favor the Squirrel.

Then too, I've never been averse to another gun, and a std. Hornet from Ruger or CZ could be really nice. Not quite as easy on the powder, but pretty doable and serviceable. Here In Ga., game laws require squirrels to be taken with RF's, but I've never seen a game warden in the woods while squirrel hunting, so .... gives me a chance to feel a little satisfaction as an "outlaw" of sorts, with little chance of getting caught. Who'd check what's normally a RF for location of the firing pin? I guess I can be a renegade at times???

Biggest thing I'm after, though, is a .22 RF substitute that I can find really accurate loads for at .22 RF performance levels, and with a minimum of lead and powder consumption and low noise level. Folks here get antsy when they hear "high powered rifle" reports, and they can tell the difference. They don't seem to realize that the lowly .22 is prone to ricochet badly, but there's no fighting misconceptions these days. If I could cast .17's, it'd be a good option for what I'm looking for, but .22 is as small as I want to go with casting.

These are the things that keep bringing me back to the smallest, narrowest cases for the gun. Now that we can't get all manner of .22 RF ammo to try to see which one our guns like, and have to make-do with whatever we can find, WHEN we can find it, it just seems to make sense to have something like this. And there's always the chance RF ammo might make a comeback???? Depending on who goes in this election???? Even if RF ammo comes back in a big way, a rifle like this can still make a lot of sense, and have some significant utility. It's longer range utility would far outstrip the RF's, and all loads from .22 pellets (some loaded backwards for bullfrog hunting) to full power level .22 WMR/Hornet levels could find some utility as well.

I can't justify spending the money until I get fully convinced I'm on the right track. The little 580 actions have been made into quite a few pistol caliber rounds, and it's a really neat and potentially versatile little action for custom applications. Light, short, quick lock time, strong for its size. I just hate seeing it languish unrestored in the safe when it might be utilized much more effectively. It's like looking at some starving, thrown away puppy you find cowering alongside an old dirt road. And it just keeps calling out my name, saying "Feed me!" Most of you know the drill, I'm sure.

Thanks for all the comments and input. It's actually helped me crystalize what it is that I really want from this little gun, and that's the hardest part of it all. It'd be fun in any caliber, to be sure, but to find great utility, it needs to be done in the right caliber for what I'd actually use it for. You've all been a significant help in this. Thanks.

[NavyVet1959]

If you are going the single shot route, it's possible to use the .22 nail gun loads with a manually loaded pellet / bullet above it. They can be had for a lot cheaper than .22LR ammo on eBay. If you are willing to buy 50+K at a time, you can even order it from overseas directly from the manufacturer.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/-22-Cal-Single-High-Velocity_213105982.html

Even on eBay, I've seen the nail gun loads for less than the cost of primers these days.

[Electric88]

What I am about to say is strictly based on what I've heard and been told, and is not a reflection of personal experience...

I believe the 5.7 case has a proprietary lacquer type coating, and there is no known way to replicate that coating during reloading. It is also said that firearms have malfunctioned because of that lack of coating, including kabooms. Perhaps that is only in FN manufactured autoloaders, and not all firearms though. Either way, good luck!

[NavyVet1959]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOZpy55U-jY

Here's another one where the poster uses the nail gun blanks to shoot pulled .22LR bullets:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFm-qivOSGw

He got a 1445 fps with the brown (#2) nail gun blanks vs 1262 fps with the standard .22LR.

He had a case blowout with the green (#3) power level nail gun blanks, but it went 1542 fps.

I think if he was seating it a bit deeper, he might not get the case blow out.

[runfiverun]

you only need the coating for the FN type guns.
in a bolt gun it's unnecessary.

I just burn the coating off when making bullets from the brass, but there is other way's to get lacquer off and back on them again if necessary.

[Electric88]

you only need the coating for the FN type guns.
in a bolt gun it's unnecessary.

I just burn the coating off when making bullets from the brass, but there is other way's to get lacquer off and back on them again if necessary.

Ah. That makes sense, thank you for clarifying that!

[Blackwater]

Once again, thanks, guys, and a big thanks to Navy Vet for the pellet stuff. Very interesting. I have tried quite a few non-standard ideas in my time, but that's one that escaped me. I need to give it a try in a regular LR. The Contender ought to be really interesting. Not sure what a pellet would do in a Squirrel or 5.7 with 1 gr. of fast burning powder like BE, 700X or Red Dot might do, but it'd surely be interesting, I think. Not sure how they'd group, but if accuracy can be obtained at 10 yds. and less, they'd probably do great on bullfrogs. Those critters are hard to find a load that will collapse them where they sit, and not jump into the water where some will be lost. Reversing them so you've sort'a got an inverted HPWC vs. HBWC, could be interesting too. If I can find some of the loads (and remember to look for them!) next time I'm in town, I'll try to test and report on them in the CB forum. Sounds like the noise level is reduced too, which is always nice in some areas.

It's SO frustrating to deal with $40+ per brick .22 RFs! And not being able to get the brand and style your gun likes makes it even less pleasing! A really accurate .22 is a very useful and fun thing to shoot! RF or CF!

[runfiverun]

adding powder has the tendency to blow the skirt off the pellet.
a mag primer in a 223 case will mimic a pellet rifle ballistics [a good pellet rifle] quite nicely.

[NavyVet1959]

adding powder has the tendency to blow the skirt off the pellet.
a mag primer in a 223 case will mimic a pellet rifle ballistics [a good pellet rifle] quite nicely.

I'm thinking more along the line of using one of the Lee C225-55-RF bullets that I cast for the AR. If I had a .22LR in a bolt action or a break action, I would give it a try.

[runfiverun]

that one would want 2-3grs of powder.
I'd bet 2.0-2.5grs of titegroup or clay's would be pretty good ballisticly speaking.

[Blackwater]

This is what I love about this site! Lots of great advice and experience and logic on any question one can come up with. As the old saying goes, "two heads are better than one, even if one is a goat head!" :D In this case, I guess it's my turn to play the goat head, because when I get strung out on these ideas, I tend to overthink or underthink them.

One further question I have, since I have no experience with the 5.7, is whether you guys think I'd have any difficulty with case neck tension reducing the diameter of cast in the little case? For the .22 LR level loads, I'm envisioning using soft lead alloys, the softer the better, I'm thinking. The Hornet is often complained of because of its "thin brass," which might make it more desirable, but the lure of factory std. dies and some fairly impressive top end performance with light JHP's and tipped bullets could be really useful at times. Do you anticipate annealing the case necks would alleviate reducing the bullet dia. with soft alloys? I wish I knew someone who shot the little 5.7 with anything but factory rounds, and who reloaded for it. It really occupies a unique little ballistic niche that, IF it could be utilized well, could prove itself to be a very neat and useful little round, but flies often lurk in these waters, unseen until they bite you.

I'm really tired of trying to wait on varieties of .22 LR to come back at something close to traditional prices. The cheapest .22 LR ammo I've seen in quite a while is 8 cents a round now. I could beat that with most any very small CF case and cast, and have even greater versatility and customizing of loads potential. It's really no fun not being able to get .22's at will any more, and cheaply. That was the RF's main claim to fame. And I don't want to get caught without a suitable alternative.

And Run, the Lyman Cast manual lists 2.0 gr. of 700X and Red Dot at just under sonic vel. with the std. Hornet. Neither is listed as "accuracy loads," but tweaking with pistol/rifle primers can sometimes make a difference in these type loads, from what I hear. I've never tried it, but once the right components are determined by shooting, it'd be nice to have a good supply of this tiny little "giant killer." For years here in Ga., hog hunters were limited to .22 RF to do it legally. The reason was so the game wardens could cite you for "deer hunting" if you used a CF gun on them. That's been eliminated now, but a friend of mine took literal semi-truckloads (plural!) with .22 LR. He just took head shots, and I don't think he ever lost a hog, but that was mostly because he could shoot, and never pulled the trigger if he wasn't sure of his shot. It's amazing what can legitimately and cleanly be taken with .22 LR/WRF/WMR performance loads in a pinch! And when a pound of powder can load in excess of 1,000 rds., and the bullets just sipping gently at my lead supply, it'd likely become on of if not my favorite cast rifle.

Lots of ins and outs, and I like to do my thinking before I enter these projects. Don't have enough money any more to re-do them, so ... I come here for help. And thanks for all the input in this. IF it's done well and well thought out, I think the conversion has real merit. Unforseen things are always the problem facing us in such things, though, so .... again, thanks for all the input. I think that #438 with the GC milled off would make a sweet little squirrel/rabbit/coon load, and the #415 would be great for warmer loads, harder alloys for better penetration on bigger stuff, and would still just sip at the lead and powder supply - a survivalist's "dream gun" of sorts.

Being a single shot, it'd be no big trick to swap out ammo if the "wrong" species comes by. Don't think I'd take a pop at a sasquatch with it, and surely wouldn't want to face a black bear with it, but .... in the case of the bear at least, one of the warmer cast loads with a harder alloy and good bullet placement could indeed serve, even if with some real "tension" at the trigger squeeze. It's amazing what's been taken with the RF's. All that they really require is a non-emergency situation and good shot placement. And even the "giants" will fall. Again, a potentially very useful round and rifle, I think.

[17nut]

I have a 17HH and shoot cast in it.
Up to 1900fps it's great fun.

176172

A friend i cast some for to try, shoots them out of a 17VHA (5,7x28 necked down).
Using 1 grain of 700X he gets 22LR performance and expedite armadillos without bullets going everywhere.

[NavyVet1959]

They make chamber adapters that allow you to fire a .22LR in a .223 chamber. If you combined this with the idea of the nail gun power-loads (nail gun blanks) and then hand setting the 55g Lee cast bullet into the rifling you could even use the high power power-loads.

Depending upon the rifle in question, this *could* be an option. It would be easier to do with a break action than with most .22LR chambered bolt actions though.

I think that if you already have a .22LR chambered bolt action that the easiest solution is to just use the power-loads directly in it. You shouldn't need to make any firearm modifications, but at worst, you might just need to increase the leade in the chamber slightly so that you can seat the bullet further from the powder charge.

In a lot of ways, this is kind of like a miniaturized version of the loading of the 16" guns on Iowa class battleships. The projectile gets rammed in first, then the powder charge after it.

[runfiverun]

you gotta remember that the two powders I mentioned burn in a completely different way than red-dot or bulls-eye.
clays is like burning flash paper [poof gone] and titegroup is similar only slightly slower.
700-x is right in there with them and does very well in low amounts too.
[I use 3.5 grs in both my 30 carbine and 300 b.o.]

5.7 brass isn't overly thick it just feels like it because of the bends and the base/web area..
if you actually measure the thickness at the case mouth you'll find it is quite similar to your average 223 cases thickness.

I don't know if you can even find cases anymore but there used to be a round called the 22 velo-dog it was basically the 25 acp scaled down to 22 caliber.
I couldn't even imagine trying to get a case in the shell holder let alone line up a boolit with the case mouth.
but as far as sipping at powder and lead, it would for sure be a leader of the pack.

okay i'll come clean on the clay's load.
for my 223 I swage my own bullets from 22 lr cases.
these take a core.
the core is small and light [@50 grs] and small enough in diameter to fit inside a LR or LP primer with the anvil picked out.
I take the soft core and set it in the primer base then run it into my point form die.
this gives me a 224 diameter soft lead boolit with a gas check.
which I tumble in my 45/45 lube version with added beeswax and a poof of graphite.
it's absolute death on ground squirrels out to 50-60 yds and it doesn't have the crack of a 22 lr.
more a pock sound then a thuck type at the other end.

[slughammer]

I picked up about 100 of the 5.7 cases at the range on Thursday. Looking at them and the case specs I see the body is straight and not tapered. This would make it easy to shorten a size die .08-.12 and push that shoulder back in order to get a longer neck. Kind of like a miniature .222, very good for cast and it could probably help with your desire to shoot pellets.

[wmitty]

rfr:

I knew someone would find a use for all those spent primers; do you anneal the primer cups before you seat the cores?

[Blackwater]

That's a really neat thing to do, Run! It just so happens I have a 2 lb. coffee can over half full of spent primers. I wish you guys would stop this stuff! It costs me money every time I read stuff like this! :-D That's the kind of recycling I can really get behind! And about the performance level I'd like to see for my minimum level loads.

The more I think about this project (and it's not like I don't have plenty already!) the more I tend to lean toward the 5.7. The only thing keeping me from going ahead and pulling the trigger on it is the fact that I could get a CZ 527 in .22 Hornet for only a tad more money, and it would probably do pretty close to what I want to do, too. And be easier.

Decisions, decisions, decisions! I think we real gun nuts aren't ever quite completely happy unless we're retching over something like this? But it's a pretty neat type of retching, though. And sometimes we learn a thing or two in the process. There are times, though, when "compromise" just isn't quite what we were after to start with, and intermediate steps CAN cost us even more money, so .... I'm still thinking on it. Still leaning toward the 5.7 though. I still think the case is small enough to do what I want on the low end, and just big enough to have an interesting high end for playing in that ballistic arena.

Funny, isn't it, how difficult it can be to come up with a really good minimalist load? I still think a ctg. that would be reloadable and cover everything from .22 LR subsonic loads through .22 Hornet level performance in a single case, and that'd fit in that short little action without needing too much lengthening of the ejection port, would be about as close to the ideal I'm looking for.

Thanks for all the input. It's helped crystalize my thoughts, and added some dimensions to my thinking, which is always an asset. Thanks.

[runfiverun]

if you anneal them they make diameter better.
if not they just flatten out the dimple mostly and come in at about 222
which for the speed they are going is in the close nuff territory.

couple of other classic rounds you might wanna look at is the 22 Jet.
or Dick Casull's 454-22 I have shot the 454-22 in an 8" revolver and it is pretty impressive at the upper end.
the case capacity/shape would lend itself to downloading pretty well.

if you want more ideas give Huntington Die Specialty's a call, they keep a running stock of RCBS dies rcbs put together for other wildcatter's.
if you have an inkling of an idea it would be best to see if someone else already had the same idea.