Casting for mouse guns - 25 acp especially

[DukeInFlorida]

OK, call me somewhat crazy..... But a lady I know inherited a "Sundance" 25 acp from her mom.
175851
It's really not well made. It gagged on Speer aluminum cased 25 acp round nose rounds.
I'm about to start casting for it.
I'm also considering buying a Beretta 950.
175852

So, hoping all the "mouse gun" folks will "come out of the walls", and help me get started.

I have 1000 pcs pretty nice brass cases, which are clean, and have been de-primed.
I plan on using Titegroup (have plenty on hand) unless someone can steer me in a better direction.
I bought an old Lyman 252435 (25 acp, RN) two cavity mold to cast them in.
The standard jacketed bullets for 25 acp are .251" diameter.
So, my questions:
A) What alloy to cast them in? I would presume normal Lyman #2 or thereabouts. I would usually do pistol bullets in 50% wheel weights/50% range lead. Maybe add a slight bit of tin for filling them out.
B) What size to size them? The mold says 252435, which could be the drop size. Anyone have any experience with this mold? Should I lube/size them to .252"? That's the nominal .001" over bore size.
C) Any comments, suggestions, otherwise, with regard to mouse guns in general. How's the Beretta as a candidate?

Thanks in advance for any and all help.

[Outpost75]

I've never cast or loaded for .25 ACP, have alot for the .32 ACP and many of the fundamentals will apply. Wheelweights are fine, but adding about 1-2% tin to improve fillout always helps. Size bullets to the largest diameter which chambers and feeds freely. In general fatter is better as long as loaded rounds do not exceed max. ctg. dimensions. Maintain overall cartridge length close to factory rounds. Deep seating and short, OAL runs pressure up dangerously in a small case!

[Bigslug]

I don't know if it's an issue for the .25 or not, but I would at least go in being aware of the 9mm Luger's phenomenon of the short stiff case sizing the diameter of softer bullets down below the diameter that the gun wants - causing leading. If that IS a factor, I would tend to compensate with water-quenched wheel weight (with added tin for fillout) to prevent it. If it's NOT a factor, then the .25 certainly doesn't need anything that hard.

Titegroup - undoubtedly workable, but that round would probably benefit from a faster burner.

[Traffer]

I would use soft lead swage the base hollow and powder coat them. That would be the perfect way to load those guys. With a hollow base you could get more powder in that tiny case and with powder coat no leading and soft bullet makes good seal. It is a winner.

[victorfox]

You should get in touch with Chev. Williams. To me, he's THE MAN on .25, he made a Ruger .25ACP with another cylinder for a .25 "magnum" he made himself...

[Ballistics in Scotland]

In one sense the .25ACP is simple to load for. I'm prepared to believe that you can perform wonders with it in a rifle (why?) or large pistol. But from a small pocket pistol possibly no bullet will dependably expand, which will dependably penetrate. Maybe someone has introduced one lately. If so their advertisements will tell you how good it is. The argument that for defensive purposes it is a lot better than a Desert Eagle left at home, is of course a very sound one.

I think the argument that the brass could swage down a soft bullet is probably true. On publish dimensions it is about a thousandth thicker than the 9mm. Luger. You could neck anneal, but you should be careful not to let the anneal spread that short distance to the head, where weakness= is inadvisable in an unlocked e pistol. It may, as the young lady said about a baby where none should have been, only be a little one. But there isn't much brass around the small pistol primer. Actually I don't think swaging-down is harmful enough to warrant annealing. If the outer and inner diameters of the case neck are right, it can only swage the bullet down to a size it ought to be.

You should examine rounds chambered by firing the previous one. If the bullet is strongly marked by the feed ramp or anything else, you may need a harder alloy to reduce friction. The .25ACP and the original Baby Browning were designed around FMJ bullets, and I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that some pistols, probably the smallest, really need them.

[Chapo]

I Reloaded for mine few months ago and all I can say that leading shouldn't be an issue.

[Bent Ramrod]

I had an H&R version of the Webley for a while, with a fairly cruddy bore. Possibilities for load development weren't great; IIRC, the thing had no sights. I standardized on 1 gr (max) of Bullseye. The Ideal 252435 mould I had was greatly undersized in the nose, and was noticeably inaccurate, but fed and shot without problems. Eventually I wound up resizing the Ideal 257420 HPGC down to 0.251" (I think) and used that. It was kind of mangled looking, but shot "better" than the 252435.

The gun was kind of cute, but I got bored with it and traded it off to a guy who had the .32 version and "needed" to "complete the series." We all know how that goes. :mrgreen:

[35remington]

The pocket pistols of inexpensive manufacture tend to be sloppy large in the groove dimensions. Confirm before shooting. Functionality trumps everything else, as in even the best case scenarios accuracy will be hopefully adequate but nowhere near exceptional.

[Earlwb]

What may work too is to use a #2 or #3 buckshot pellet size. #2 is .27 size and #3 is .25 size. But this is shooting round balls though. But one can get a bag of shot for a decent price still. There may be some shotgun pellet bullet molds around that would work in these sizes too. Sharp Shooter USA makes some buckshot molds in most any size one could want. http://buckshotmold.com/

[DukeInFlorida]

I've sent off a PM, asking for his input. Thanks.


You should get in touch with Chev. Williams. To me, he's THE MAN on .25, he made a Ruger .25ACP with another cylinder for a .25 "magnum" he made himself...

I'm not going to powder coat anything. In my opinion, the jury is still out on that subject. The Hi-Tek liquid version seems easier to get into, but not sure I would even bother for this low volume gun chambering.


I would use soft lead swage the base hollow and powder coat them. That would be the perfect way to load those guys. With a hollow base you could get more powder in that tiny case and with powder coat no leading and soft bullet makes good seal. It is a winner.

I see lots of references to Titegroup used for the 25 acp. It's a powder that I have lots of, and years of experience with. Especially important due to the short stiff case sizing issue you mention. I want a powder that will be a gentle burn.


I don't know if it's an issue for the .25 or not, but I would at least go in being aware of the 9mm Luger's phenomenon of the short stiff case sizing the diameter of softer bullets down below the diameter that the gun wants - causing leading. If that IS a factor, I would tend to compensate with water-quenched wheel weight (with added tin for fillout) to prevent it. If it's NOT a factor, then the .25 certainly doesn't need anything that hard.

Titegroup - undoubtedly workable, but that round would probably benefit from a faster burner.

While the buckshot suggestion might be an option, I'll be sticking with the Lyman mold that I invested in. I really don't want to start looking for bags of shot, or for other molds that I would not ever use.


What may work too is to use a #2 or #3 buckshot pellet size. #2 is .27 size and #3 is .25 size. But this is shooting round balls though. But one can get a bag of shot for a decent price still. There may be some shotgun pellet bullet molds around that would work in these sizes too. Sharp Shooter USA makes some buckshot molds in most any size one could want. http://buckshotmold.com/

Thanks for the suggestions so far.

[victorfox]

In one sense the .25ACP is simple to load for. I'm prepared to believe that you can perform wonders with it in a rifle (why?) or large pistol.

I can see several reasons. 1) emulate the small bore "rookie rifles" of the UK 2) spend little powder on shooting small game on a round that is reloadable and mostly sure fire 3) overcome the ever lasting .22lr shortage.

There are much better cartridges for what I said, but heck it's a Browning... :)

[bouncer50]

Of all the guys i know that reload so far i am the ONLY guy that reloads 25 auto. A pain in the butt the primer is about a big as the shell. I have to use the scale my powder thrower will not go that low of a charge. I have JC bullets and some cast that i bought at 252 size. I really don"t think you have to worry about leading the barrel the most i shot of out one 25 auto was 50 rounds. Really the 22 short is a better round then the 25 auto. But the 25 auto feed better then the short does. I have a few 25 auto and 22 short the 22 short is better for cheap shooting and the 25 auto for a back up gun for your other bigger pistol.

[Poygan]

I load for the .25acp and cast with a RCBS mold. I size to .252. Other than the fact that it is a small round to load, I don't see it as any more difficult than any other round to load. I like the Beretta 950 - appears to be a quality piece. Surprisingly accurate for a small pistol. I use straight wheel weights BTW. Also have the ranch Dog mold.

[Earlwb]

I think that the .25 ACP is something of a underdog and is equivalent to using a .22 LR in a handgun. The small pistols with their short barrels are optimized to shoot about about the same muzzle velocities that a standard .22 LR round does. I think that a handgun with a 4 to 5 inch barrel (even 6 inch) would be pretty awesome to use with the .25 ACP cartridge. It would then likely be shooting like the regular .22 LR high velocity rounds. I don't think that anyone made a longer barrel handgun for the .25 ACP round. But it would be pretty neat if someone did manufacture one.

But unfortunately, if .22 LR rimfire ammo is easy to get again, and cheaper than the .25 Auto ammo, then few people would be interested in it. Even though you can reload the .25 auto's but not the rimfires.

[victorfox]

Again check Chev Williams Ruger. There's magazine (forgot if rifleman or gun digest) talking about Ruger releasing a. 25 "magnum" revolver but Chev was faster and got it done before the rag hit the streets.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The .25 ACP would bei far less effective for defensive purposes or on small game than the .22LR. Its reason for existence is that although the .22 can function reliably in a good semiautomatic rifle, this is far less likely in a small pocket pistol. That isn't to say that the .25 can't be efficiently lethal, in some circumstances. I hope no other pistol cartridge has beaten the record of the bestial General Blokhin, who was the sort to bring Bolshevism into disrepute. But it allows less error than most pistols in preventing the patient walking to the hospital, and the usual firearms involved are hardly conducive to accuracy.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Blokhin

The .25ACP Le Français pistol, made by or for the French firm Manufrance, came in a Policeman model (the English word) with an 87cm. barrel. If you find one it ought to be cheap. The small Le Français were even more of a lady's gun than the other .25s, since they had no slide serrations, and the first round was chambered by lifting up the hinged barrel and inserting it. Unfortunately it avoided every kind of extractor problem by not having any. Cases were ejected by gas pressure, and if you had a misfire it stayed there.

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/fr/le-francais-e.html

[Chev. William]

Laughing: a "87cm" barrel converts to about 34-1/4 inches!
But Perusal of the original source from:
"The .25ACP Le Français pistol, made by or for the French firm Manufrance, came in a Policeman model (the English word) with an 87cm. barrel. If you find one it ought to be cheap. The small Le Français were even more of a lady's gun than the other .25s, since they had no slide serrations, and the first round was chambered by lifting up the hinged barrel and inserting it. Unfortunately it avoided every kind of extractor problem by not having any. Cases were ejected by gas pressure, and if you had a misfire it stayed there.

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/fr/le-francais-e.html

Laughing: a "87cm" barrel converts to about 34-1/4 inches!
But Perusal of the original source Shows it is a more reasonable 87mm length.
(http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/fr/le-francais-e.html)

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes indeed, and people probably realise that was a mistake. Realise exactly what mistake, in fact.

[Chev. William]

Sorry But My attempt at quoting seemed to lock the Font in "Underline" mode.

Now As to the .25ACP questions posed to me:
1. I do not Cast as I don't have the Equipment now, I don't have the "Disposable Funds" to buy the Equipment now, and I am Old Enough tha tI don't want to chance the Potential injuries from Spilled Hot metal due to inexperience.

2. I do reload .25ACP with Cast bullets from commercial and other sources. I also reload using Jacketed bullets in this caliber cartridge.

3. My investigations found that the origin of the.25ACP was a desire by J. M. Browning to develop a Cartridge and Pocket Semiautomatic Pistol that would function more Reliably than one using the available .22 Rim Fire Rounds of the Era. In that he Was Successful!, the design of the 'baby browning' and the .25ACP have been copied and still are produced to this day.

4. The current commercial Cartridges are loaded for, and tested in, barrels of about 6 inch length (both SAAMI and CIP use this length for the TEST Barrel length). As such, the advertised performance is about 750n to 800 fps Muzzle Velocity (MV) with the 50 grain FMJ-RN bullets and slightly faster with the Lighter ones.

5. The 25ACP fired from a 2 inch barrel is a close range Defense round only in an 'unarmored' environment, but it can be effective in that set of conditions.

6. My experiments to date with Commercial loads in my Ruger Single Eight Revolver (with a 1.415 inch long cylinder before the 'gap' to the Forcing cone of my 10-5/8 inch barrel) yielded chronograph results of 874.8, 771.8, 788.3, 913.1, 711.7, 725.1 778.3, 733.7, 742.3, 791.8, 706.4, 618.0, 691.1, 733.2, and 745.7 fps from Prvi Partizan (PPU) 50 grain FMJ-RN 6,35 Browning/.25 Auto Factory Loaded cartridges. The PPU Advertised them at 771fps and 66ft=lbs Muzzle performance.
The same manufacture Cartridges fire out of a Raven MP-25 results in some unburned Powder granules and a Muzzle flash upon firing.

7. Almost ALL Semi-Auto. .25ACP pistols are of the "Blow-Back" Action type and therefore dependent upon mass of the slide and resistance of the recoil spring to delay opening of the Breech until the Bullet Leaves the Muzzle and pressure has dropped to safe Extraction levels.

8. "Ranch Dog" reported in the 'Shooters forum Thread ".25ACP" that he had slugged numerous manufacture .25ACP Pistol barrels and found them to be mostly over Nominal values in bore and groove diameters, with current Taurus manufacture barrels actually having Groove diameters over .255" diameter which leaves 'windage' around Jacketed bullets (he even posted a photo of the 'daylight ring' around a 35 grain jacketed Hollow point bullet).

Now all of that said:
= I have experimented with Commercially Cast Lead bullets in .25ACP sizes. mostly 51 grain 'Ranch dog" TL256-50-RFN and "Hunters Supply" 63 grain FP; with a few 73 grain RFP GC bullets from a Friend (unknown Mold).
= I have fired 63 grain 'hard cast' Lead using a charge of 3.0 grains of BE-86 out of my RUGER SINGLE EIGHT ONLY! unfortunately before I acquired a chronograph capability. That is a Heavy Load for this Cartridge, being slightly compressed and resulting in about twice the 'muzzle rise' as the PPU Factory cartridges.
= Direct comparison of Bullseye and BE-86 using 1.5 grain charges behind 50 grain FMJ-RN bullets yielded the following:
Bullseye; 1185fps, 1079fps, 1278fps.
BE-86; 1107fps, 1381fps, 996.2fps, 1147fps.
I have fired and reported a Ladder sequence of Bullseye Propellant behind 63 grain Bullets elsewhere on this forum in a separate thread, ranging from 1.36~grains to 1.89~grains. Please Refer to that Thread for the Data.
= Published Loading data by many others show various safe charges for use in general Semi-Auto Pistols of a vast range of Manufacturers Please refer to those TESTED and PUBLISHED Data as I do Not think any existing Semi-Auto Pistol is designed nor tuned to withstand the same pressures as my Ruger Single Eight.

My revolver started out as a New Model chambered for both the .22LR and the .22WMR cartridges which are rated about 25,000psi MAP. European factory 6,35 Browning Ammo is loaded to CIP Standards of about 17,400psi MAP. The Limited American Manufacture .25ACP Ammo I believe is loaded down to similar Levels; although SAAMI Recommends a MAP of 25,000psi.

In summary:
Blow-Back pistols vary in strength so be VERY CAREFUL in developing loads for them.
Semi-Auto. Pistols are from necessity tuned for a certain range of cartridge load performance to function reliably. Either Too Weak or too Strong Loads negatively affect their Performance as Manufactured.
Loads Exceeding the design limits of a firearm can result in Catastrophic 'disassembly' in a violent and Injury Producing manor.
Be WARNED and BE CAREFUL!!!!

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Further details of my experiments are listed in the Thread:

".250/.257 Cartridges to .25ACP/.25 Stevens Diameters from 5.7x28mm once fired brass. (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?283914-250-257-Cartridges-to-25ACP-25-Stevens-Diameters-from-5-7x28mm-once-fired-brass/page3)"

On this forum.

See Post #42 for my range report on the Chronograph load testing of Tuesday, August 16th, 2016.
Further, see Post #43 for additional thoughts on the testing and results so far.

Best Regards,
chev. William

[Harry O]

Just out of curiosity, how thick are your fingers? I cast, load, and shoot the .32ACP. That is about the lower limit for size that I can handle. Even then, I have a lot more fumbles than with a .38 Special or similar.

[Chev. William]

My left Index finger tip measures .560" over the Nail and .600" Wide at about the same point.
My Left Thumb tip measures .575" over The nail and .785" Wide at about the same point.

I set the slot in the Shell holder pointing to The Left side of my Press so it is 'easier' to insert and Remove the Cartridge case/Cartridge from the left.
My press is an RCBS "RC" full oval frame with a Large diameter Ram and a reducing bushing to take 7/8-14 Thread Dies. I have modified it with an RCBS "Ammomaster II" handle with its Ball End to ease the Effort needed To Swage Cases on it. the Modified handle adds about 4" to the Lever length.
One stage Reduction Swaging of either .22 Hornet down to .25 Stevens diameters or .327 Fed. Mag. down to .32 Long Colt diameters works very nicely. The 5.7x28mm cases seem to require three Stages of Swaging due to their starting diameter compared to the .25 Stevens final diameters.
Of course both .22/5.7 mm cases have the Neck and shoulders opened/Expanded to .250" size before the body Swaging process.

To Date I get about 95% yield of .22 Hornet down to .25 Stevens diameters.
My Yield so far for Swaging 5.7x28mm has been Nearly 100% (about 800 cases swaged down out of a Supply of 2000 plus on hand).

As you can imagine, Trimming formed cases to length is tedious at best, Hornets start out at about 1.4" and my First Trim is to about 1.250" length. Other trim lengths are 1.125", 1.055", and currently .960" for my newest 'wildcat', the ".25ALR" or ".25 Auto Long Rifle".
The trimming of reformed 5.7x28mm cases starts with Measuring and Sorting by length. cases of 1.220" or longer are used for "6.35x32mmSR loads. the ones Shorter after Swaging are Trimmed to either 1.125" or 1.055" for use in either 6.35x28.6SR or 6.35x26mmSR loading respectively.

Bullets I have loaded for Revolver/Pistol use are; 35 grain JHP, 50grain FMJ-RN. 52 grain Lead RFP, 63 grain Lead FP, and 73 grain Lead RFP-GC. others are either too long for my Revolver or waiting for my Model 44 Converted Stevens Single Shot as it will accept longer COAL loads.
I do have one Dummy 1.250 " case loaded with a 120 grain Spire plastic tip bullet that measures 2.030" COAL. really an Interesting looking cartridge.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[smkummer]

I have that mold and I load as cast. It's been a few years since I loaded some 25 ammo and I did buy some bulk hornady 251-50 grain jacketed bullets awhile back. Mine worked perfect in a Colt pre-war vest pocket.