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toecutter
06-01-2008, 03:07 AM
So I'm working on my first set of swage dies (that I've built) and I'm trying to work out some of the math. This is going to be a .308" 6-S ogive bullet with a large meplate for shooting in my .308 win and .30-30 win. The meplate comes out to .107 on my cad drawing, so I was going to use a #36 drill blank for the nose/knockout punch. The big question on my mind is what size the bleeder hole should be. On the dies I currently use, the bleeder is a tapered hole, not sure if it was made by first drilling one hole, and then counter boring most of it to a larger size. This makes the sprues that come off drop out of the hole easier.

So what size bleeder hole should I use? Is there one of those rules of thumb that allows me to calculate this?

The other question is bleeder hole placement, should it be at the base of the ogive? or should it be further down into the shank?

I think I'm probably going to take some of buckshot's advice and use 12L14 for the dies. If that doesn't perform I may end up going with A2 tool steel, we'll have to see which one I can actually cut to proper tolerance.

Swagerman
06-01-2008, 09:15 AM
How about one of these for a knock-out punch, it's my ABE unit...(automatic bullet ejector)

The box spring device set's atop your swaging die and bolted to it by two nuts. Merely adjust the the bolt and swage die body up and down for any size bullet and its weight.

Works great on my .44 and .45 caliber revolver bullets. Parts needed to make this unit will cost less than $20.00

Instruction plans are available for $15.00 at bigcaddy@centurytel.net This will also include email photos and any further assistance.

Jim


http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/44and45/P81300442pix4445autoejector675Xwith.jpg

toecutter
06-01-2008, 03:56 PM
Swagerman,

Yea, I've seen it, and think it's pretty cool. Unfortunately knowing what size hole to drill in the side of the die is keeping me from completing it, so your unit will never do me any good. But thanks.

I should probably restate my question: "So what size bleeder hole should I use? Is there one of those rules of thumb that allows me to calculate this?"

jcunclejoe
06-01-2008, 06:11 PM
Hello Toecutter, you could start with a small bleeder hole and work up in size slowly. A small bleeder .032 to .045 will bleed just fine but may require a lenthy dwell time for the bleed to escape and for pressure to equalize. The larger the hole the faster the pressure will equalize and the less dwell time required for that to happen. But if you go too large (over about .094) you may not generate enough pressure to get a complete fill out on your cores. Then you would end up with uneven weights. The amount of bleed will also have an effect on all of the above factors. A 1 or 2gr bleed will come off pretty fast but a 5 or 6gr bleed will either require a larger hole or a longer dwell.
Bleed size for consistent core weight depends largely on the consistency of your sheared cores (wire consistency and shear consistency). The larger the variations the larger the bleed will need to be to make sure your cores fill out.

As far as placement (from your post) it looks to me like you are trying to bleed and form the ogive at the same time. If this is a jacketed bullet you can only bleed above the copper/lead match line.
If you are making almost fully formed cores then you can bleed anywhere, but bleeding on a parallel will shear the bleeds nicely from the core. Bleeding on the ogive somewhere would not shear as neatly when the core is knocked back out.

My 41 cal swage die with cores the finish up at 223gr run about 2-3gr of bleed and the bleed size is .075. I make every attempt to stroke the press quickly, if I pause at the bottom of the handle stroke the cores come up light by up to .5 gr. So I try to be consistant and stroke it through quickly with no pause.
I could open up the bleed a bit more but then I would have to re-learn / re-adjust everything. For now it works, so I'm not screwing with it.

I know I have not given you any answers but I can tell you from experience that Nosler determined all of the bleed sizes through trial and more trial. No formulas used there.

Someone might be willing to give you a formula or a number but without knowing all of the factors and variations in your materials and components, it would, at best, be a ballpark guess.

Good luck and please don't hesitate to e-mail me if you have more questions.
Joe
jcunclejoe@aol.com

Swagerman
06-01-2008, 06:58 PM
Toecutter, I'm somewhat at a loss on the bleeder hole you want...but I get lost real easy these days.

Your die to be will have an ogive taper but will have a flat top where the ejector stem expels the bullet...is that correct?

I have some seating dies that are like that in .44 and .45 caliber, but they don't seem to require bleeder holes. Plus, my ABE unit can expel the bullets just fine even with that type of die.

You could reverse the bullets travel into the swage die by using a nose punch with the proper ogive and flat nose, your die would then be a straight hole of the diameter you require...then the nose punch could have a tiny bleeder hole drilled through the length of it...something about 1/64 may work.

Maybe some of our good machinist will come on here and give you the answers you need.

Jim

Red River Rick
06-01-2008, 10:38 PM
Toecutter:

I have measurements of the bleed hole diameters taken from some of my Corbin "LED" (lead extrusion die) dies. The norm is around 0.070". I also have some dies that were made to fit a automatic swaging unit (2400 rnds/hr) once manufactured by Bear Mountain, the hole diameters are very close to 0.070" as well.

I've make my own swaging dies out of A2 or D2 Tool steel, heat treated to 60 - 58 RC and diamond lap the interiors to finished size.

For my bleed holes, I drill thru the wall (3 x, equally spaced) with a #51 drill (0.067"). I then drill 2/3rds of the way into the same hole using a #47 (0.0785") drill. The intent is to reduce friction on the bleed wire. Before lapping the interior on my dies, I lap the bleed holes with midget or micro laps using diamond compound as well.

Here's a pic of those midget laps, the tool they are resting on is used to increase the diameter by "squeezing" the tool into the slot in the lap.

Hope this helps.

RRR

Buckshot
06-02-2008, 04:14 AM
.............toecutter, I also don't believe there is any formula for the bleed hole. If there was in addition to the core's OD it would also probably be affected by the alloy being used.

As jcunclejoe said, you'll want the bleed hole in a position so it will be cleanly sheared when the core is ejected. Obviously NOT on the ogive. He also made a good point about letting the core 'rest' when the press is at the top of it's stroke. As I've mentioned before, it's all made out of rubber, and the pressure used will deform the press to a greater or lessor degree.

I found that with my Walnut Hill press, swageing cores in the bleeder die I can bleed cores, but get weights varying 1.5grs or so by not being consistant in 2 things. One is in how fast the ram is brought to TDC, and secondly by not being exact on the dwell time at TDC. And this is in bleeding mere lead (soft) cylinders, and a mild cup base as the only feature.

Now I know that a smooth effort on the lever to bring the ram to TDC, and a 10 second dwell will have the cores all within 3/10ths of a grain. Watching the bleed hole you'll see the lead start out quickly and then gradualy slow until it stops. I tried bleeding cores and letting each one set for differing times while I did other stuff, but with all obvious lead bleed stopped. Sometimes it would be a few minutes to several minutes before I came back to it. Core weights varied a surprising amount which seems odd to me, but the proof is in the doing.

The bleed hole in the RCE .440" core bleed die is .081" or a #46 bit was used and is straight through. I can sure appreciate Red River Rick's 2 diameter hole, and also the idea of 3 of'em too. So that .081" hole is 18.5% of the core's OD. Or take the OD and divide by 5.4. When I made my .374" swage dies for paper patching for the 38-55 I used the same .081" bleed hole OD. However if that 18.5% is good it maybe should have been .374" x 18.4% = .068". That would no doubt have worked too.

Whatever, it was .081" and it works just fine as you can't tell where on the core the bleed hole was anyway. If you're using something besides soft lead, the bleed hole OD would probably play a larger role in that there might be some 'pullout' instead of a clean shear. I'm guessing here, as I've never bled highly alloyed cores before.

"I think I'm probably going to take some of Buckshot's advice and use 12L14 for the dies."

toecutter, let me add that I used 12L14 for 2 basic reasons. One is that I had it and secondly it machines like cheese. You can cut a VERY fine finish before polishing and leaving a half thou to polish will still give a mirror polish without going over your desired ID. This leaded steel can be case hardened but not through hardened.

I had W-1, O-1, and A-2 on hand but no means to heat treat it. In it's unhardened state I doubted that it would have been greatly more resistant to wear then the 12L14 is. To date I have made swage dies using W-1, 12L14, and even 1018 (which was a bear to finish). So far I've had no problems with any of them. However if I were to go into production, say to offer something for people to PP, I'd probably spend the bucks to have the die(s) hardened.

...............Buckshot

toecutter
06-02-2008, 11:58 AM
Perhaps this will clarify what I'm talking about. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7680&stc=1&d=1212420476

The idea is to make a bullet and then I'm also working on a plating process, so it will end up copper washed much like the berry's mfg bullets. I'm still working on the process to do this, but so far most of my experiments plating cast bullets is going fairly well.

So this is going to be an all-lead bullet. Maybe some day I will spend more time on jacketed stuff when copper gets cheaper!

Joe,

I have seen when swaging dies go bad... A while ago my boss didn't like the placement of the bleeder hole on one of the dies, and had a new hole EDM'ed into it, and the old hole welded up. Generally welding on a hardened die is a bad idea. I've never seen steel that thick or that hard crack in half like it was made of glass. Before that it ruined a lot of lead wire. It seems there are some flow dynamics to take into consideration when designing the bleeder holes.

RRR,

That's just the poison I've been looking for, thanks! For the first few I'm going to use the 12L14, to make sure I'm getting what I think I'm getting before I try cutting it out of A2, or W1. Walking before I start running.

Buckshot,

I'm in a similar position, I have a fair amount of 12L14 around the shop and am well convinced of it's machining characteristics (wow!) I also have A2, W2, and O1 in various states around the shop. I think if I get something I like I will take it out and get it hardened. But I think I need to get some failures under my belt.

Swagerman,

My apologies, when I read your initial response it seemed you were just trying to sell me something (which, while I think is cool, I didn't need it at the moment). And I think I was a little too quick to get angry about it. What I am trying to do is what junclejoe said, form the ogive and swage to final weight at the same time. This is essentially a core forming die, it just makes the core into the shape of a bullet. I was planning on feeding it lead-wire scraps from work. So without a bleeder the bullets would have weights all over the map.

Buckshot
06-02-2008, 02:05 PM
"What I am trying to do is what junclejoe said, form the ogive and swage to final weight at the same time."

...............If you really mean to swage to final shape and bleed the wire at the same time you might have issues.

..............Buckshot

Red River Rick
06-02-2008, 04:42 PM
Buckshot is correct. This style of bullet would normally be done in a couple of stages, with the ogive swaged in a ogive forming die. I doubt your going to have much luck getting the nose to completely fill out properly.

As far as plating goes, your going to find it extremely difficult to maintain finished OD, been there done it. Perhaps making your bullet 0.003" - 0.004" smaller, plate, and then run the bullet back into the Ogive forming die will prove better results. The lack of bleed holes in the Ogive forming die will bump the bullet up to the correct diameter as well as iron out any imperfections from the plating process. I've tried the plating process, and electro-plating will cause some issues, barrel or tumble plating will provide better results.

RRR

Swagerman
06-02-2008, 05:18 PM
Toecutter, I misunderstood your type of bullet swaging, as I've never had any dealings with such.

Mine are only revolver cast bullets in .44 and .45 caliber...which have the rounded ogive taper with a flat meplat on the nose. Usually doesn't require a bleeder hole.

Sorry I got it wrong.


Jim

Red River Rick
06-02-2008, 09:16 PM
Perhaps this will clarify what I'm talking about. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7680&stc=1&d=1212420476

The idea is to make a bullet and then I'm also working on a plating process, so it will end up copper washed much like the berry's mfg bullets. I'm still working on the process to do this, but so far most of my experiments plating cast bullets is going fairly well.

.

Here is a pic of some swaged .45's that have been barrel plated. And a 3-D rendering of your drawing.

RRR

georgeld
06-03-2008, 01:51 AM
RRR:
Would like to know where I could learn this plating process and what it might cost.

Do you fellows have it in e'mailing form? or can it be found elsewhere easier?

Thank you

toecutter
06-03-2008, 11:33 AM
RRR,

Very cool! What did you use to render the slug? I've been trying to find something that will do that for a while without much luck. As far as barrel plating, this is what I was planning. But it's still an electrolytic process, I don't have the patience to hang individual bullets on wires and then turn on the current ;)

Buckshot,

Doing a one step bleeding/ogive forming is the only process I have ever used, it takes a fair amount of effort to get everything right (right lube, right alloy, right core weight, right speed on the machine) but once you work that out, it's fairly easy. Typically you create about a 5-10gr of waste per bullet. We used to use 5w oil for lubricant with 6% Sb wire, but recently switched everything over to 50/50% castor/lanolin and comes out beautifully.

Red River Rick
06-03-2008, 11:26 PM
Toecutter:

Here a link to a previous thread I posted to, it mentions the barrel plating and some of the problems I encountered: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=22499

As far as the CAD 3-D rendering, here's a link, it's not cheap. This is what we use at work: http://www.ezcam.com/web/products/ezmill_pro.htm

RRR

toecutter
06-04-2008, 04:33 AM
RRR,

So from what I can gather you used a barrel plating process (this is essentially what I was planning to do, but hadn't heard of that before, but figured that was the way to do it) did you still use electric current to fix the copper to the bullets?

I noticed one person was talking about the toxicity of copper sulfate... Kinda funny, it used to be used to kill plant roots in drain pipes. I personally think I'm going to use this approach to handle the copper wash on the bullets and then swage them a second time to make sure they havn't grown or otherwise been deformed. Another thing I was considering was this product: (warning: horrible website)

http://www.translube.com/tlube20204.htm

It's a thin film polymer which is intended to remove a lot of friction, I'm kinda wondering how something like this may work for doing a final coat after the bullets are plated. Then coated in this stuff, and then a final bump to size.

Red River Rick
06-04-2008, 05:12 PM
Toecutter:

I didn't do the barrel plating myself, I had a local plating company do for me. Rather than go thru all the trouble of trying this myself, I left it up to those already experienced. Costs, if I recall correctly, was approx. .50 - .75 cents per pound (can't remember for sure).

I checked out the Translube website, one thing that bothers me is the "Phenolic Resins". From my machining experiences (25 years), most phenolic based resins are extremely abraisive. I don't know if running a bullet coated with this product down the barrel would be the best idea, perhaps something like Rooster Labratories Flood Lube may work better, at least I know its not abraisive.

Copper Sulfate, is it as bad as they say. When I was still farming, I used to dump it into the dugout to kill algae and plant growth, the cattle didn't die. Perhaps in large doses, it may cause problems.

Good luck on your plating process.

RRR