45-70; .45 cal Hornady Gas Checks no longer tight?

[huntinlever]

Hello all -

Been away for about a year, rough one. Back and prepping to hunt with my son, looking forward to it.

I've cast 1000's of cast 45-70's with the Hornady gas checks without issue. Previously, they would require some force to come off with a fingernail tug.

The last two casting runs, I've had a problem with loose checks, and I can't figure out why. I measured the cast bullets, and they are nicely filled out. I'm running 50:50 ww/lead with added 95:5 solder to bring it to about 1.5% each of tin and antimony. 700F cast.

I size to .460 through a Lee push through sizer; always have. To be honest it's been so many months since I last cast, I forgot whether I lubed the bullets before snapping the checks on and sizing the boolit, or not. Last batch, I did this, this time, not.

Last batch, several of the checks were so loose, they just fell off. Many clicked on, but came off easily. I contacted Hornady and they took the checks back, but say the need several weeks to see if it was a defective lot. I bought another box as I want my bullets to cure a few weeks before shooting them, and season approaches.

Today, going back to what I think I always did, I did not lube the boolits in RCBS lube prior to seating the checks and sizing. No completely loose checks, all snapped on, but in the sample I ran (I only ran about 20, didn't want to do another 250 bullets only to find they have to go back in the pot with ruined checks), again, they came off with a very moderate fingernail tug. They're staying on through lubing, etc., but still, this is completely different from all my past experience.

Any thoughts?

[big bore 99]

Try annealing your gas checks. Hold them with a long nose pliers in a propane flame till blue then drop them in water. Should pop. Could be checks are springing back after putting them on. I wouldn't want to do 1000's like that but just to find out. Then do a bunch at once using another source of heat.

[huntinlever]

Thanks BigBore, I'll give it a try. I've never annealed because to be honest, I've had such great results on the gas check tightness without having to do anything previously. I have also been loathe to make any changes to my process because I'm so happy with my load, have been nervous about tweaking anything and having to start over (425 gr out the door of my guide gun at 1725 fps and close to 1" groups). I know that's just paranoia since I'm not actually changing anything by annealing the copper.

Still puzzles me why this never came up until now. ???

Thanks again.

[big bore 99]

Could be they may have lost some anneal. I shoot 45-70 too but in single shots and done that with some of my 500 grainers. They seemed to crimp on much tighter for me. It's a easy test to see if might work for you.

[Tenbender]

Buy 458 checks from a Gator vendor. I had the same problem. Where did you get a Lee 460 sizer ? All I could find was a 457. I polished it out to 4585 . I guess I will have to start polishing again . lol

[dkf]

I prefer the Gator .458 checks also. Though I did open up the gas check shank on a mold or two to give a little more of secure fit on the GC because I have a bunch of Hornadys to use up and the gators still fit..

[Tenbender]

I prefer the Gator .458 checks also. Though I did open up the gas check shank on a mold or two to give a little more of secure fit on the GC because I have a bunch of Hornadys to use up and the gators still fit..

The guy at NOE told me about the 458 check. He said they were thicker than 452 check. You don't size a 458 down enough for a 452 check to seat. I have used Hornady 452's but some of them come off.

[dkf]

My Hornady checks just say they are for .45cal, they don't specify ".452", .458", etc.

[huntinlever]

Thanks guys. Tom at Accurate said something interesting that I hadn't known, which is that given a sizing of .461 (the Hornadys, out of the box) down to .460 (my sizing), I won't be getting a strong crimp - but that shooting will sure do the job, given the lands crush them to .450 or so. Hadn't thought of that and it makes perfect sense.

I've tried Gators in the past, and for some reason, at least at that time, they were looser than the Hornadys I was using. But all bets are off as I am in a way starting over, it having been so long since my last season's intensive casting sessions and my memory all but erased. Tom actually recommended the Gators given they are .465" OSD, so they'd crimp more strongly. A member here kindly PMed me that he'd send some gators, along with some aluminum checks, so, grateful to him and looking forward to trying.

It occurs to me: Has Hornady thinned their checks over time, to save money, anything like that? Anyone have any experience suggesting this?

***

Separate topic, but after casting today, I'd like to ask: my boolits last year were really well cast, very clean, sharp edges, etc. These first two batches this year, not so much. I have the expected poorly-filled out early boolits, but even when in the thick of the day's session, I'm not happy with what I'm seeing - the seams are a bit muddy, small skin can form on the base of the boolit (I can scrape it off, but still), little dings from time to time on the bands, and I don't know why, as they're not on every boolit.

I did have some accumulated lead bits, very small and very flat, on the seam edges of the halves; tried heating the mold up and using a pencil to rub away. They rubbed quite flat, but probably not entirely away (I can still see these "spots"). I've washed with both mineral spirits and denatured alcohol with a cotton rag and swabs.

Any "best practices" recommendation for really cleaning up a used 2-cavity, aluminum mold? I heated in my vat, which goes to 700F, btw.

Thanks for this as well.

[wind power]

Hi Huntinlever,
If you're interested, I make gas checks and will gladly take them back if they dont work out for you and shipping to the customer is always free.
Im at www.Bulletgaschecks.com
All the best!
Gavin

[huntinlever]

Thanks windpower, I'm getting a small sample of Gators and aluminums sent my way, kindness of a fellow member. I'll keep your company in mind as well and appreciate you letting me know.

As it turns out, there is some improvement with this last batch - I recall now, I run them dry through the Lee, base-up. Doing them dry, without any lube, seems to force them on more tightly. Better, but still not locked down like they were last year. Looking forward to trying the Gators and the member's aluminums. And Gavin, thanks again for your info as well.

Thanks for your help, everyone.

[Sagebrush7]

SAGE’S OUTDOORS PUSH THRU BULLET SIZING RECOMMENDATIONS LEE lube and size dies work smoother with a little modification. I take a 60 degree cone shaped stone for a Dremel tool and open the mouth of the die untill you have a smoother entry with your bullet and check. Finish by polishing with 300 wet & dry sandpaper or crocus cloth with rounded handle or dowel of the propper size to fit the mouth of the die. This will stop the hard sizing and tearing of your checks.
Install checks flat and square on the base of the bullet. Large diameter bullets size better base first into the die. Applying a small amount of lube to the bullet helps in the sizing process. Smaller diameter rifle bullets with pointed nose should be sized nose first. If you reduce the size of the cast bullet .002 or more, the excess lead will migrate toward the gas check shank and loosen the check. Not always the case, you will have to experiment and see what works best for you.

In using any brand sizing dies with large bullets and thick checks a light radius applied to the mouth of die will help a lot.
James & Shamus.

[huntinlever]

Thanks James. I've got my bullets coming in at just over .461, and the Lee opened up to .460, so I think we're good on that score. I'll sit with your mouth idea. I know it's a great idea. I also know I'm a completely inept machinist!

Looking forward to trying the thicker checks, made for rifles.

[huntinlever]

Buy 458 checks from a Gator vendor. I had the same problem. Where did you get a Lee 460 sizer ? All I could find was a 457. I polished it out to 4585 . I guess I will have to start polishing again . lol


Just realized I forgot to answer this one, Tenbender, sorry. I very delicately opened up the die with a dowel and sandpaper. Very delicately. I can't even remember what paper I used. I found the process by googling, somewhere. Sorry I can't give you more.

[huntinlever]

After casting and sizing another large run, some things found out, and I just thought (I hope) it might help another member, or more. I would of course appreciate any and all thoughts:

1. This was unknown to me, but makes sense: the Hornady .45's installed, more or less as I usually experienced in the past; a few out of 100+ or so fell off, most stay on but with spin, some were very tight. My mold maker said it doesn't really matter...they're sized down to .458 by the grooves, and .45 by the lands, anyway, and so will stay on, whether they've crimped tightly or not. This was a new thought to me, and I found it really interesting.

I know Gators are great checks. I'd forgotten I had tried them a couple years ago, and for whatever reason, they just don't work. Way too loose, simply fall off (much more than any other check I've tried). I call it the design of my gas check shank, and nothing to do with the gator quality.

A member here sent me a sample of the gators, and his own aluminum checks. These aluminum checks fit snugly and well. Like, really well, and I'm really pleased. I allow all my boolits to cure a few weeks before loading and shooting, but I'm looking forward to trying these out at the range. I get great accuracy with my 45-70, using the Hornadys, but I'm very open to trying something new.

What are your thoughts, guys, given the above? Good luck with aluminum checks? Concerns about galling, or is that a non-issue at 1710 fps? This notion that so long as gc's "install," tightness isn't an issue because they're "crimped on" by the rifling, anyway?

FWIW, here's a sample range trip, with 39.5 gr IMR 4198, the 425 gr wide meplat from Accurate, Hornady gc's. 1710 FPS. I eventually ended up going with 39.7 grains of the powder, but can't find the pic. Anyway, decent representation of what I'm getting with my existing setup, save this Hornady slip issue of late:

176325

[huntinlever]

Sorry for another post, but just want to say, I got some aluminums from Sage Outdoors. These really fit like a glove, extremely tight, and at 1710 fps, having read some more from this site, I don't have any worries about galling. Another thing I'll say (perhaps it's one reason why they fit so well), the Hornady wells are shallow - they only go up about 1/2 of the shank; but the Sage checks go up all the way, and fit perfectly. Looking forward to shooting these!

Forgot to add, thanks on the annealing idea, too, guys. Unnecessary with the alums from Sage, but would like to try on some coppers I do have.