First time caster and need confirmation/help

[TXCOONDOG]

I'll start casting (my first time) 158 grain SWC bullets for .38 Special and .357 Magnum loads this weekend. I've read so much that I need some confirmation or guidance to get me started off right!


Equipment Information:


I bought a .358/158 SWC Lee 6 cavity bullets mold, Lee 20lb production pot, Lee hardness tester, .357 and .358 sizing dies, 1,000 pieces of starline brass, Lyman 3rd & 4th Cast Bullet Handbooks, .357 reloading dies along with a roll crimp die, etc.


Handgun:


Ruger GP100, Model 1707- 6" .357 Magnum


Note: I checked my chamber throat for size. I went ahead and slugged the barrel too.


My intended purpose is for target shooting but may try hunting (heavier weights) with cast bullets at a later date.


Alloy Blending:


I have downloaded the calculator spreadsheet and could blend different alloys to get Lyman # 2 (15 BHN) for standard .38 and Linotype (22 BHN) for .357 magnum loads.


However, I have around 100lbs of CWW melted into 1lb ingots and would like to try casting with them. Using a Lee Hardness testing kit, they test at 10.4 BHN


Note: I have some superhard, linotype and 1lb of pure tin from Rotometal.


Lube:


45-45-10 mix
Eastwood Powder Coating ( bake at 400 for 20minutes)




From what I've read in general:


Proper bullet fit (.001-002 over) is more important to prevent leading then the exact hardness (too soft/hard) for handgun loads. Seems like I read that Elmer Keith used cast bullets in the 44 magnum with a brinell hardness (BHN) of 11-12 with no leading issues.


Best casting temps are somewhere around 700 degree (I have a thermometer).


Only 1-2% tin is needed to help harden (waste after that due to cost) but mainly used for castability.


Standard to +P revolver loads- CWW + 2% tin (air cooled) = of BHN 12 which is useful up to 1100 fps/20,000 psi.


Magnum revolver - CWW + 2% tin (water quenched)= BHN 16 which is useful 1700 fps/44,000 psi


Arsenic in CWW (some magnum shot) enhances the ability to hardened via heat treat.


However, I read so many different oven temperatures settings such as covering the bullets with (after sizing, if needed) foil and heat to 450F for 60 minutes, 20 minutes, and 30 minutes with air cool and water quenching. The BHN all over the place.


Any information is greatly appreciated.

[rancher1913]

it seems overwhelming at first. the coww will do just fine by themselfs for a first cast, you can play with hardness and tin down the road but keep it simple for the first time. fill the pot and set the mold on top covered by foil to help trap heat and when the lead flows out the bottom you are ready to cast. either powder coat and size or lube and size, lube and size might be simpler for a first time. load and go.

[DerekP Houston]

I haven't been nearly as organized as that! My gp100 shoots SWC just fine though, I size mine to .358. I just aircool and either powder coat or use the hi-tek brand coating on them. I go for light - medium power loads with hp-38 being my current load. I attached the hodgon data, I've varied from 3.4-3.6 with no difference in POI at my distances. No leading from any for me, even using alox works just fine a bit smoky though. IIRC (don't have my notes at work) my hollow point 38's are loaded over 3.6 to help with expansion. Haven't had a chance to recover any of them though to see how they performed.

My alloy is range scrap + 1% tin by weight. No idea what the BHN is.

I use 700f for my casting temp for almost everything. I would start with just using the COWW and go from there if it were me.

175623

[OS OK]

You have done your homework...I'm impressed with your methodology, most want to be spoon fed however those like yourself will find an abundance of willing caster/handloaders willing to help you here.
In casting heat is everything as long as you have the mix to do the job.
You may want to purchase a 12 or 1,500 watt hot plate to preheat your molds on while the lead melts in the pot, lay an old skill saw blade on the elements to spread the heat...don't lay the mold directly on the coils. My hot plate is 12C watt and I need only to turn it up a bit less than 1/2 way to heat this 1 gang steel SWC-HP mold and pin or my Lee 6 gang aluminum molds, this setting is fine. If that mold is preheated hot enough, say 400* or so, you will get keepers from the first opening. If the mold is properly cleaned and de-burred you won't even have to smoke it. Look at the edges of the holes with a magnifying glass to see the very tiny almost microscopic burrs from the machining, a q-tip run along the parting lines of the cavities will snag on these burrs. I've used a small 1/4" wooden dowel to drag along the edges to knock these edges off, even used very carefully an exacto knife to trim them off and in most cases a hard pencil eraser worked along the parting halves will knock them off. However you do it don't get overzealous, go easy or you will muck it up.

175620

If You PC, powder coat, 400* for 10 minutes bake time will do..but..the bake time starts when the PC becomes melted and shiny, so if you do it like that you have to time it. Me, I just put a load in and dial in 20 minutes and go with that, others here will advise you further regarding timing. Bottom line here is the 'hammer test', after cooking and air cooling, take a boolit and beat it flat with a hammer, if the PC does not flake off...you have it. Keep the boolits clean prior to PC'ing.
A small convection oven is all that's needed with a quality powder...Harbor Freight PC works but as far as I'm concerned, it sucks.
This thermometer is recommended by Dragonheart, one of the leaders in PC who stresses proper temps.

175621

You really need to just put 5 lbs. of lead in that pot and try it for the first time and get a good cadence going to keep the mold warm, if you go too fast and the sprue plate gets too hot it will smear the lead instead of severing or chopping it, the bases will show smear along with lead across the top of the mold. In this case just stop a few minutes set the mold on the metal top of a bench and let it cool a few minutes, it won't take long at all...then get right back at it.
It doesn't take too talented of a monkey to learn this casting business...just do it and self evaluate what is going on from what you understand, it's really pretty straight forward and simple.

Giver a try and repost here under this thread with questions...of course showing pictures of your efforts good and bad...you'll have more help than you can shake a stick at.

charlie

PS...I forgot to welcome you Cooney!

[Loudy13]

I have a GP-100 I use straight COWW lead and powder coat and they have been working great so far in 158SWC, 148WC and 124gr TC. I PC mine with Smokes powder at 400 degrees (verified) for 15 minutes. Those are all 38 special loads haven't done much with the 357 yet.

[toallmy]

All that is left is to clean and preheat the mould , and get to casting . Be safe and tell us how it is going .

[Yodogsandman]

Welcome o the site! You seem to have a real good handle on the gist of it! Start off using your COWWs (air cooled) with 1% or 2% tin added and then age hardened for 3 weeks before using. I normally just throw 2 ounces of pewter into a full pot of COWW...good nuff. When you get up to velocities and pressures that cause leading or poor accuracy, start water dropping for more BHN. Water dropped boolits only need to be age hardened just under a week.

If you feel the need to oven heat treat, full potential hardness is reached by heating boolits for at least an hour at just under the slump temperature before quenching in the coldest water. Each alloy slumps at different temperatures. Heating to 450*F is a good temperature to start at without worry about melting all your new boolits. Heat them for an hour and quench them for about 25 BHN with that COWW with 1-2% tin alloy. Lower the heat for less BHN. Again, age harden oven heat treated boolits for just under a week before use. Oven heat treating gives the best consistency of BHN as opposed to water dropping.

Hope this helped with some basics.

[TXCOONDOG]

I was going off the top of my head and failed to mention:

Deburring the mold without nicking and cleaning/degreasing with soap/water (drying out too).
Heating up the mold and also lubing the pins/pivot points with wax careful not to get any in the bullet cavities.

Thanks for the confirmation and feedback all.

[runfiverun]

turn the heat up more. [750ish for the 6 cavity's]
start with 1 then 2 then 3 casvity's and get the mold clean before you start.
then don't be dilly dallying about just make a quick burst of boolits then look at some of them, and start over.

[Traffer]

A good thing about casting is that the boolits that don't come out right can go right back in the pot, no harm, no foul.
Welcome to a great forum.

[Walter Laich]

start with 1 then 2 then 3 cavities

--don't fill all 6 right out of the starting gate, you could break off the sprue handle. I usually do 1 then 2, etc up to all 6. Then you're OK to fill them all each time.

the 6-cav molds will make a lot of bullets in short order and drain the pot quickly. It's fun to be part of the operation

enjoy it...that's part of the fun

[Oklahoma Rebel]

yodogsandman is correct about everything in his post, but I don't think he meant you HAVE to wait 3 weeks for the boolits to harden, I don't if I need to load some boolits right away. that's just the optimum time to wait. the can also finish hardening in the cartridge too. yodogsandman, I am not trying to step on your toes, just wanted to make sure the newbie understood.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

Welcome to the site!

[Yodogsandman]

yodogsandman is correct about everything in his post, but I don't think he meant you HAVE to wait 3 weeks for the boolits to harden, I don't if I need to load some boolits right away. that's just the optimum time to wait. the can also finish hardening in the cartridge too. yodogsandman, I am not trying to step on your toes, just wanted to make sure the newbie understood.

O.K. Kidd, Thanks for bringing up the point. Air cooled boolits can be sized prior to optimum age hardening but, if antimony is present in the alloy, you risk the boolits "growing" in size after. Sometimes they will size to a smaller diameter, too when "soft", even with the same sizing die. Also, before age hardening, loaded "soft" AC boolits can be resized down by the tension of the brass case neck. So, say a .310" sized boolit could possibly be sized down to .309" or more.

Water dropped boolits should be sized and lubed ASAP after quenching. After about a day you'll certainly notice how much harder they have become and how much effort it takes to size them.

Oven heat treated boolits should be sized before heat treating/quenching and then just lubed after they're dry from quenching. Better to use a sizing die that's .001" over the boolit size to avoid any "work softening". I have used the same size sizer die after with no known change from "work softening", though. I have also sized and lubed them after quenching on the first day and got away with it. Just once, I forgot for a few days and ended up breaking my table from the force needed to size the hardened boolits. I had to use a pipe for leverage on the handle! Lucky I didn't break my lubrisizer.

[Mitch]

welcome to cast boolits.If you have the same lee 158gr SWC mold it is a gas check boolit I use the same boolit.the good news is it shoots great in both my guns with or without the gas check.You should be able to run them up to 12 to 1300 fps with not problem using 14 to 15 BHN,sounds like you are on your way.Fit is king all else follows far behind.good luck on your fist casting session

[Oklahoma Rebel]

yodogsandman, thanks for that correction, didn't know shrinking happened after the first initial cooling. also he mentioned using lyman#2 for 38 and something about 20bhn for 357, you might help him with that.

[Yodogsandman]

yodogsandman, thanks for that correction, didn't know shrinking happened after the first initial cooling. also he mentioned using lyman#2 for 38 and something about 20bhn for 357, you might help him with that.

Post #7 covers it. The OP said he has about 100 lbs of COWW (CWW) to use.

[TXCOONDOG]

Son-n-law and I did some casting today. Melted 10lbs of COWW + 2% tin, fluxed, removed the floating trash (dark gray/black) which left a mirror finish. Three or four castings came out wrinkled from being too cold, back in the pot they went, and had a few that were frosted from being too hot. All in all went better than expected. Cast about 150-200 air cooled and 100 water quenched .358/158gr SWC boolits. We also cast about two or three pounds worth of 30 cal buckshot!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/kennygates/Mobile%20Uploads/A518D9F9-36A5-4C7C-B07B-DE64617289CB_zpsjodocetm.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/kennygates/media/Mobile%20Uploads/A518D9F9-36A5-4C7C-B07B-DE64617289CB_zpsjodocetm.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/kennygates/Mobile%20Uploads/C4FCBF6E-6714-42FD-8EA0-5AB49731717A_zpswifyecsu.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/kennygates/media/Mobile%20Uploads/C4FCBF6E-6714-42FD-8EA0-5AB49731717A_zpswifyecsu.jpg.html)

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

TXCOONDOG,
Welcome to the site.
Those look lots better than my first batch of boolits :grin:

Experience is the best teacher, but you sure covered the bases before you cast your first boolit. Preheating a mold on a hotplate, was definitely the biggest improvement for this hobby, for me...I didn't discover that til I had been casting for about a year...I struggled a lot with wrinkly boolits til that day.
God Luck,
Jon

[TXCOONDOG]

O.K. Kidd, Thanks for bringing up the point. Air cooled boolits can be sized prior to optimum age hardening but, if antimony is present in the alloy, you risk the boolits "growing" in size after. Sometimes they will size to a smaller diameter, too when "soft", even with the same sizing die. Also, before age hardening, loaded "soft" AC boolits can be resized down by the tension of the brass case neck. So, say a .310" sized boolit could possibly be sized down to .309" or more.

Water dropped boolits should be sized and lubed ASAP after quenching. After about a day you'll certainly notice how much harder they have become and how much effort it takes to size them.

Oven heat treated boolits should be sized before heat treating/quenching and then just lubed after they're dry from quenching. Better to use a sizing die that's .001" over the boolit size to avoid any "work softening". I have used the same size sizer die after with no known change from "work softening", though. I have also sized and lubed them after quenching on the first day and got away with it. Just once, I forgot for a few days and ended up breaking my table from the force needed to size the hardened boolits. I had to use a pipe for leverage on the handle! Lucky I didn't break my lubrisizer.

I am so glad you posted this information because I would have waited and made things very very hard (pun intended) on myself and equipment!

I do have a question about powder coating the boolits. I'm sure powder coating is going to increase the size by .002-.004 which means I need to resize again ? If that is the case, do I resize immediately after they cool or ?

[Kraschenbirn]

I do have a question about powder coating the boolits. I'm sure powder coating is going to increase the size by .002-.004 which means I need to resize again ? If that is the case, do I resize immediately after they cool or ?

Kinda depends upon what your boolits measure 'as cast'? I just got a new 4-cavity mold that drops .3595-.360 from my alloy (2 parts range scrap/1 part COWW + a bit of tin) and, first time out, I coated 'as cast' (shake 'n bake) using Smoke's Gloss Black. Picked up about .002 dia. but boolits resized back to .359 with no problem. I DO, however, allow my PC to 'cure' for a day or two after coating. Ran 100 rounds of those through my Ruger 'Match Champion' yesterday morning; accuracy/POI same as with lubed boolits and, after a couple of dry patchs, bore appeared squeaky clean. And, btw, those weren't 'softball', either...162 gr RNFPs @ 1050 fps.

Bill

[TXCOONDOG]

Kinda depends upon what your boolits measure 'as cast'? I just got a new 4-cavity mold that drops .3595-.360 from my alloy (2 parts range scrap/1 part COWW + a bit of tin) and, first time out, I coated 'as cast' (shake 'n bake) using Smoke's Gloss Black. Picked up about .002 dia. but boolits resized back to .359 with no problem. I DO, however, allow my PC to 'cure' for a day or two after coating. Ran 100 rounds of those through my Ruger 'Match Champion' yesterday morning; accuracy/POI same as with lubed boolits and, after a couple of dry patchs, bore appeared squeaky clean. And, btw, those weren't 'softball', either...162 gr RNFPs @ 1050 fps.

Bill

After posting, I went to the powder coating section and found the information. Anyway, I discovered that all my boolits measured at 359.5 except 17 of the quenched and 39 of the air cooled were .363. .363" boolits are about 5 grains heavier too. So that tells me that I need to identify that cavity!

Thanks for the reply.

[TXCOONDOG]

Learning curve 24hrs brinell hardness testing results: Water quenched BHN 16 and air cooled BHN 11

[Yodogsandman]

If they will pass the "smash" test, they're good to size. I've sized them the same day after cooling from PC.

It's going to be hard to stand up those long boolits in a tray for curing. Hope you have a plan. Here's how I stand up long ones(6.5x55) for ESPC. I drill GC shank size holes. 6.5 on one side of the aluminum plate and 30 cal on the other.

[CASTER OF LEAD]

TXCOONDOG welcome to the fray. One additional thing to remember. We do this to "save" money lol so I been told. Still waiting to see my savings. You got an excellent start over most . Did the leg work and research prior to starting and as someone mentioned earlier weren't looking to be spoon fed all the answers. Caster

[TXCOONDOG]

The only plan was to shake them for a minute or two in a coolwhip bowl and bake on foil at 400 for 20 minutes. I bake the two I performed the hardness test on to see how the aforementioned method would work. For give the bad cell pics:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/kennygates/Mobile%20Uploads/03F4E01C-188A-4003-B93F-355A04028478_zps25vpnc4u.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/kennygates/media/Mobile%20Uploads/03F4E01C-188A-4003-B93F-355A04028478_zps25vpnc4u.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/kennygates/Mobile%20Uploads/D6E93DA4-B4AD-4140-BC52-A7A332252715_zpshmhwsxz9.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/kennygates/media/Mobile%20Uploads/D6E93DA4-B4AD-4140-BC52-A7A332252715_zpshmhwsxz9.jpg.html)

[DerekP Houston]

looks like you done good to me!

[OS OK]

Now that you have coated them, have you done another BHN test? What was the BHN going into the oven?

The last batch I did of soft HP lead softened further from the cast air cooled value. Just curious?

[TXCOONDOG]

Learning curve 24hrs brinell hardness testing results: Water quenched BHN 16 and air cooled BHN 11

Learning curve brinell hardnenss test results after a week: Water quenched BHN 19.3 and air cooled BHN 13.4

OS OK, the hardness going into the oven for PCing were WQ BHN 16 and AC BHN 11

[OS OK]

It looks like the arsenic in the lead makes it invulnerable to softening in the PC oven...no softening at the low temp, still hardens with the heat treating and time. My soft SOWW's have done the opposite, after the oven they softened within a couple of days. I wish I'd foreseen this and done a better job of watching the BHN. So, now I'm befuddled a bit.
When I get done with this irrigation project I'll pay closer attention with the next batch, I've been preoccupied and haven't had the time for the casting bench. There seems to be a difference and I'm glad to see it for the HP's.

[TXCOONDOG]

Powder coating hammer smash test:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/kennygates/Mobile%20Uploads/4350E4D0-008E-4B66-AB76-BA3C5A2A2592_zpsfmrpetki.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/kennygates/media/Mobile%20Uploads/4350E4D0-008E-4B66-AB76-BA3C5A2A2592_zpsfmrpetki.jpg.html)

[Yodogsandman]

Passes the smash test!

[Oklahoma Rebel]

hey, those big 363 boolits were probably not from a faulty cavity, you probably just had a small amount of led harden on the inside face of the mold, when you see that happen, use a toothpick to pry or scrape it off, don't use metal, because it will easily marr the inside of your mold, this goes double if it is in or right by the cavity! hope you are having fun!, Travis

[TXCOONDOG]

Learning curve brinell hardnenss test results after three weeks: Water quenched BHN 19.3 and air cooled BHN 15.4

[TXCOONDOG]

Now that you have coated them, have you done another BHN test? What was the BHN going into the oven?

The last batch I did of soft HP lead softened further from the cast air cooled value. Just curious?

OS OK, Since you made this comment, I did some more testing.


I took the water quenched with a BHN of 19.3 and powder coated them. The water quenched that I powder coated and air cooled (out of the oven) dropped from BHN 19.3 to 13.4. The water quenched that I powder coated and water quenched (second time) immediately out of the oven went from BHN 19.3 to 17.2.

[OS OK]

I should have done a better job of keeping track of the BHN as I went in thinking I had the right idea...NOT!

((From the first page of the thread...))
My first attempt at this lead mix was diluted COWW's...(from thread...Lyman 452423 HP...single cavity...new to me..."Any suggestions?" (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?314060-Lyman-452423-HP-single-cavity-new-to-me-quot-Any-suggestions-quot)) The calculator figured if I used 40 grams of pure Sn, added to 6.5 pounds of SOWW (stick on wheel weights) to 5 pounds of COWW (clip on wheel weights) that I would get an estimated BHN of 10.1 with 1.12% tin, 1.31% antimony, .11% arsenic and 97.5% Pb. I thought that would make some nice looking casts but they were too hard @ 10.4 . I think the .25% arsenic in the COWW's is what foiled things for me a bit. Incidentally the weights varied from 231.8 to 233.4 grains of the 20 that I weighted digitally. This is a 230 grain mold.

I think I got it now...((From the last page of the thread...))
I think I have it now...but you won't believe the story behind this lead though...2 days ago I poured it from ingots of pure SOWW's that measured 7.7 BHN on the day I put them up in January 2016.
After using these ingots and casting these SWC-HP's and air cooling, the casts measured 9.2 BHN the same day.(<what?) I also PC'd them later that afternoon and let them sit until this morning.
This morning I filed a wide spot in one of the PC'd rounds to test BHN, twice I tested that bugger!, it tests at a whopping 7.4 BHN!(<what?) After going through the 400 degree oven it now tests lower at 7.4 BHN...holy cow...I can't begin to explain this event..."I see you grinning over there 44man!"
Ok...the bottom line...I suppose that the bottom line is where it all comes out in the wash...right?
I taped the end of a 4" PVC elect. type conduit, leaned it against a trash can and filled it with water. Next I shot into the open end of the pipe...and yes, my belly is still wet from the blow back! (same load as the first test, casts wt.=238-9g. a bit heavier, more lead content...add, 4.8g. of 700X @ 863 FPS avg. Primers show rounded edges, no high pressure.)
But...look at the results here...You think I got it now or is it a fluke?...."charlie thick skull...the BHN guy!" <(JOKE!)

*I didn't re-paste the pic's they are still on the other thread.

[TXCOONDOG]

I found that if I took the water quenched boolits, after powder coating and dropped them immediately out of the oven in ice water they tested at BHN 20.9.