1300 f.p.s. 38-55 and 45-70 ?

[August]

What *smokeless* powder have you found to work best in these large cases??? I've been all over the web. I've tried 5744, imr 4759, and Unique. Some with wads, some not. Can't say I'm impressed with any of them, but would like to hear your experiences getting a light, accurate load from these big, ol' cases.

I'm using correctly sized 250 grain boolets in the 38-55 and correctly sized 300 grain boolets in the 45-70.

I've been reading about trail boss, but it looks to be too fast a powder for rifle work.

Any, and all ideas appreciated.

Thank you.

[Jon K]

August,

I am shooting the powders you list and find they shoot quiet well @200m
Win 94 1:18 twist
Saeco #731 255 gr FP(sized.380)/Fed GM215M/2.535 oal
10 gr Unique= 1374 avg /11.2 sd
20 gr 5744 = 1400 avg /9sd

I can't find data for 4759 now, but I quit using it because of bridging issues.

I also tried 4227, it chronographed good, but did not give good groups. I idn't use any of the stick powders, although they shoot good, they don't meter well, unless you have one of the new electronic powder dispenser/scale combo, like Lyman or RCBS.

What 38-55 lever are you shooting?

45-70 I use 5744 w/Saeco #015/28 gr = 1409 av/9sd. Many powders work in this case and is a matter of personal choice, like Ford or Chevy.

Jon

[freedom475]

Varget is the answer for this type of load with405gr. boolits in the 45-70. probly still work with the 300gr. but will probly be a little higher in FPS

It does leave some partially burnt powder behind but the accuracy and consistancy make it my favorite for the black powder replica loads. I shoot is as light as 40gr. and as high as 55gr's behind the 405cast so it is pretty flexible.

IMR 3031 is proby one of the best 45-70 powders out there but loads tend to run quite a bit hotter than what your after.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

This is the velocity range that both calibers were meant to be in and were shot in, back in the days of BP. With the intro of smokeless, cartridges could be fired at somewhat increased velocities. I use IMR 3031 to load for both and have an assortment of 6 rifles to feed. Five Winchesters and one Remington rolling bolt. In the 38-55's, 27-30 grains starts to move things up from the 1300 fps range with 30 grains developing 1500-1600 fps depending on the length of the barrel. Thats about as much "smack" as one might need with a 250 grain boolit, either for target or hunting. In the 45-70, around 40 grains of 3031, again depending on the barrel length will generate around 1200-1300 fps. Moving up to 43 grains produces around 1400+ fps. Thats with a 405 grain boolit. From 1400 fps on up, depending on the condition of the rifle(and not for trapdoors) things get kind of noticeable in terms of recoil. With the 405 grain boolit I tried a load recommended by an old NRA loading article....53 grains of 3031 and it walloped hard at both ends. Needless to say I backed down considerably from that load. In modern guns one can also push 500 grain boolits at velocities higher than 1200-1300, but these loadings kick like the devil. For big and dangerous game you can use those loads to ventilate just about anything in the western hemisphere. With a good chrono and the math/formula for computing velocity and related/resulting muzzle energy you can readily calculate the power generated by the 45-70 in these loadings that are significantly over 1300 fps. Good shooting. LLS

[4570guy]

I use 23 gr of 4759 under the 340 gr Lee in my Marlin 1895 for MV = 1260 fps. I've had very good accuracy and it packs plenty of punch .

[James C. Snodgrass]

I've been shooting 17 gr of trail boss in a 458 Lott with a 500 gr Lee sp and a similar Lyman with m.o.a results. As far as 1300 fps in the 38/55 I've been shooting in a 375 JDJ 30 gr of Benchmark with a coffee filler for 1300 fps in a 15" T/C with a 250 lee . I'm having a lot of fun with both ( Big Guns) tuning them down to pipsqueaks . Good luck James:castmine:

[Old Ironsights]

I've been using Varget in my 1886 with 300 &330gr boolets as well. Easy to scoop into my Lee Loader.

OTOH, I think I'm going to move to 2400 once this pound is done.

[ktw]

2400 has worked well for me in 38-55. 16gr gave me ~1450 fps with the Lee 250, no filler.

IMR4227 (16-18gr) worked a lot better with filler than without.

Plan to try Unique and SR4759 at some point in the future.

-ktw

[miestro_jerry]

With Varget or H4895 you shold be able to go beyond 1500 fps.

Jerry

[tanstafl10]

August

you seem to be getting a lot of feedback, so one more cannot hurt.

for my 45-70, I have been using IMR 4198 26 - 28 gr (405 gr boolit) for the velocities you mention. It is accurate and very pleasant to shoot. My decision in getting this rifle was to keep my reloads at the original velocities. Adequate then, still is today!

Only have had the Sharps clone for a couple years and have not been brave enough to take it for white tail. I am still a bit shakey with the "One shot, one kill" technique and always seem to end up with a M-94 in 45 Colt for the deer.

Have fun!!

[405]

I shoot a couple of 38-55 levers and a few different 45-70s. There are probably many, many powders that CAN work. I've tried about most every, common powder that can work. Like you, no point in setting speed records or exploring pressure envelopes. For pleasant, accurate shooting of cast I like Rel #7, 4198 and 5744. I mostly shoot GC bullets over smokeless. Trailboss, not unlike most of the fast powders, seems to be best suited for the short, highest expansion ratio cartridges like 44-40, 45 ACP, 38 SPL, etc.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

For a number of years I hunted with a 16" winchester loop lever AE 38-55 using the Lyman standard 38-55 GC bullet at Hi-Velocity levels. The load was WW, NRA lube, GC and sized to groove diameter with AA2495 and a common large rifle primer with a moderate crimp at the 30-34 grain level . Chronoed at 1300-1400 in the short barrel, was very accurate, and very effective on deer. I had a Lyman receiver sight on the rifle. BvT

[Dusty Wheeler]

I shoot an H&R Target .38-55 (I know it isn't a lever...) with the Lee 250FN sized .380 and 17 grs of 5744 for 1300+/- FPS for about 2" at 50 yards... I've tried 8 grs of Unique with the same boolit with similar results. I've stuck with the faster powders because I wanted to stay close to 1300 FPS. I also tried 18 grs of 2400 (from an old Lyman manual) but had more velocity than I wanted. This thread has been helpful!

[Chuck 100 yd]

14 gr. Trail Boss under a 325-350 gr cast bullet shoots very good and recoil is little to none. A good plinker load for the kids that will take deer no problem! 50yd target.
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c356/chuckleininger/IMG_1336.jpg

[Naphtali]

You might consider using one of the myriad [smokeless powder] black powder substitutes. All the advantages of smokeless with absolute safety of loading by volume, and some of the smoke effect of black powder.

Just a thought.

[NickSS]

I use a 300 gr bullet and 29 gr of 5744 in a 45-70 and 18 gr of 5744 and a 250 gr LFP bullet in the 38-55 the bullets are sized 459 and 379 respectively. These loods shoot very well in three different Marline 95 and several single shot rifles in 45-70. The 38-55 load shoots very well in a marlin, Winchester lever guns and two single shot rifles in that caliber. All average around 2 inches or below at 100 yards with iron sights.

[KirkD]

August, I have three different 45-70's and a couple original Winchester 38-55's. Looking at the powders you've tried, which are good ones, I'd say there must be some other problem. 5744 has done well in all my 45-70's and 38-55's, and 4759 is very accurate as well in both calibers, in my experience. I do use toilet paper filler. I recently read a couple articles by Mike Venturino, talking about using corn meal filler in his 40-82. The improvement in accuracy was phenomenal. I've not yet tried corn meal filler, but if you can get your hands on those articles and read up on it, it may be a good last resort. One other thing. Assuming these are original rifles you have, how is the bore just forward of the chamber. I've seen nice bores until I looked at that area .... serious pitting from the old primers they had way back. If you are shooting new rifles, then you got me scratching my head. There's nothing wrong at all with the powders you've been using. I use soft cast bullets (bhn 7 to 12). By the way, when I talk about good accuracy, I'm talking about 5-shot groups at 100 yards, of around 2" with open iron sights, shooting from a padded rest.

[Brownie]

a good light accurate I use in my old Winchester 38-55. Lyman cast #375449 sized .379 with 17.5 to 20grs of 4227. this bullet weighs 280 to 285grs and is very accurate.

[lathesmith]

This is a great 38-55 thread...I have one more load to add: 8.5-9 gr of Red Dot, over a Lee 250 gr boolit, sized to .379, achieves right at 1250 fps, is quiet, deadly accurate, and has negligable recoil. This load is so clean, you could shoot it all day and the barrel would still appear mirror bright. I have had similar results with 700-x, though the powder charge is slightly different.
lathesmith

[Dumasron]

My favorite 'stand up and shoot' is a 40-70 Rolling block with a 28'' heavy barrel. Lately I have found that 26 Gw of Blackhorn 209 with either a 350 gr or 300 gr soft cast bullet produces both good accuracy and soft recoil. It will need to be wiped about every 5 or ten shots to maintain accuracy even though Blackhorn literature insists no cleaning required between shots. Maybe they mean between the first and second shot, which is true. This is a nice load for the 200 yd. silhouette.

[KirkD]

I shoot nothing but cast in both the 38-55 and the 45-70, and I shoot both at around 1,300 fps with traditional weight bullets (around 255 grains for the 38-55 and 405 grains for the 45-70). I have tried many powders. It depends whether you are shooting plain base or gas check. With gas check, you can use slightly slower powders like IMR 4198, RL-7 and IMR 3031 with good results in the 45-70. With plain base, you want soft cast bullets (you want soft cast anyway for both calibers). By 'soft cast' I mean pure, clip on wheel weights, air cooled. You might even get better accuracy if you add some pure lead (stick on wheel weights) to soften things up to around 7 or 8 BHN.

You will give yourself a real education if you try a few shots over the chronograph with powder forward and then with powder back. IMR 4227 is extremely position sensitive. So is IMR 3031. If you use these powders, you should certainly use filler. I use cotton filler. That keeps the powder against the primer and gives nice small extreme spreads in velocity when you use a chronograph. I buy my cotton by the pound at a local fabric store.

My favourite powder for both cartridges is 5744 with cotton filler. For the 45-70, I use 24 grains of 5744 plus cotton filler under a plain base 405 grain soft cast bullet. I don't have my 38-55 records here with me. For the 38-55, I have also found IMR SR4759 to be good as well. 2400 works well in both cartridges with cotton filler, but the ES is still higher than I like with that powder.

It goes without saying that you are using cast bullets that are close to groove diameter. I hate hard cast bullets unless I am using them in my 30-30 at 2,200 fps, then I like hard cast. For 1,300 fps, you do not want hard cast bullets. They do not bump up and they will lead your bore if they don't seal it properly. I use nothing but soft cast in all my old BP guns. For my 30-30, I water drop them to make them hard. With soft cast bullets, I can shoot bullets that are .002" undersize and still bump them up to get five shot groups at 100 yards that are around 2".

[larryp]

In the 45-70, around 40 grains of 3031, again depending on the barrel length will generate around 1200-1300 fps
When I shoot smokeless in my .45-70 Hi-wall this is what I use. With both a 405 gr or a gould 330gr hp it delivers fairly good accuracy and with the hp very mild recoil. I have even used the same charge with a 480 gr Lyman 457658. There the recoil was getting a little stout but not unbearable though accuracy wasn't that good. I don't have a chronograph to tell you the velocities at the moment. :-(

[Salmoneye]

Try this:

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/450m300_dat.htm

3 more bullet weights here:

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

[Kansas Ed]

While I haven't tried Trail Boss in the 45-70 I have tried it in a 40-82, and it's a real keeper in that caliber. 17.0gr in the 40-82 with a 265gr GC boolit put it over the chrony at 1350 fps. It was very stable and had low a es, not to mention it shot very very well on target. I also tried it in the 50-100-450 and the velocities maxed out at around 1283 fps. I can't speak to the accuracy in that rifle though as the chamber seems to have some serious issues. I really don't see TB as going over about 1400 fps because of its' properties though. I don't think I'd eliminate it from the equation yet, you might give it a try. I think if I was shooting for that 1100-1300 fps mark it would be one of the first powders I'd try.

Read the intro on the following link at IMR, and it explains the development of loads with TB. http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail%20Boss%20Reduced%20Loads%20R&P.pdf

Two cautions apply though...don't compress it at all, and no fillers (none needed with this powder anyway).

Ed

[rststeve]

+1 4198 works the best in my Marling 375 win Lyman 375449 and 375248 can't go wrong here.

[fouronesix]

August,
Within your general criteria for velocity I have found that 5744 with dacron filler yields the most consistent accuracy in both the 38-55 and 45-70. I shoot two different original 38-55 Win 94s, two different original 45-70 Trapdoors, two different original 45-70 Win 86s and a current model 45-70 M74 Shiloh Sharps. In the 38-55s I shoot a 250 gr FN GC. In the 45-70s I shoot the RCBS 300 and 405 FN GCs and two different custom Mountain Mold GC'd bullets in 440 gr and 460 gr. I keep the BHN down between 10-14 for all cast bullets for these type loads.

I don't know how all that translates or compares to your rifles, loads or bullets.

[BCRider]

A very timely bump up from the archives for me. I'm just about to begin loading up some 38-55's for accuracy testing.

A question about the filler. Some mentioned cotton and others Dacron. Cotton being a natural fiber I'm guessing it would burn and char on the way out. Dacron being a plastic suggests that it might melt. Has anyone experienced any melting and possible bore deposits from this been an issue for anyone or is Dacron just fine?

I'll be doing a range of test loads using 4227, 5744 and 4198. Based on what I'm seeing here I think I'll be trying them with some filler to keep the powder back near the rear.

I've got some Trail Boss as well. But the figures at the Hodgdon reloading site for pressure don't look promising. For the full pressure it only gives back a velocity of under 1000 fps. As some have said it's just simply too fast a powder to use in this sort of cartridge.

The 4198 option may be a non starter too since it would spit out my 255gn cast boolits at 1400 and a bit even at the starting load. Unless I can go a bit lighter and use a filler again.

[fouronesix]

A question about the filler. Some mentioned cotton and others Dacron. Cotton being a natural fiber I'm guessing it would burn and char on the way out. Dacron being a plastic suggests that it might melt. Has anyone experienced any melting and possible bore deposits from this been an issue for anyone or is Dacron just fine?


I've found no melting with dacron. Shooting over snow reveals only fine strands of scattered filler material. With certain light loads using filler in the larger capacity cases sometimes I can catch the cloud of shredded filler in my peripheral vision being blown out the muzzle. I've found no bore deposits when using dacron filler.

When working on accurate, lower velocity/lower pressure (trapdoor type) loads with 400-405 gr Jbullets in the 45-70, 4198 seemed to work the best for me. I would guess Remington uses a similar powder for their Jbullet/trapdoor factory ammo.

[BCRider]

Thankyou. So I won't panic if all I can get is the plastic stuff.

[fouronesix]

I think the melting plastic rumors are just that. The best type dacron/polyfill/etc. I've found is batting and is listed as high loft or extra high loft or something like that. It comes in sheets that are about 3/8" +/- thick. Even loading a light smokeless charge in a 45-70 case requires only about 3/4 gr (actual weight) of fluffy dacron between charge and bullet base- touching both the charge and the bullet base.

[1Shirt]

I have never known of dac to melt, and have been using it for years.
1Shirt!