The Debate is Over

[Hickory]

In a recent thread about killing a grizzly bear with a 9mm, and all who applauded the great and wonderful feat, the debate is over. Now you can enter any forest where grizzly bears roam and feel confident and safe with a single shot 22 rifle.

http://www.ammoland.com/2014/11/what-22-rifle-did-bella-twin-use-to-kill-a-world-record-grizzly-in-1953/#axzz4IuNqj0O0







For myself, I'd want something on par with the job at hand.

[Premod70]

The debate has just begun, get the popcorn out!!

[DougGuy]

I don't know if the stats still stand but the 22LR kills more people in the US every year than any other caliber, 12ga shotgun is second.

[MUSTANG]

If a Grizzly Bear attacks you in the woods, what is the best gun to shoot it with? Why the one you have with you of course!!

(Personally, I don't care to pre-season my Mountain Lion, Bear, etc.. with pepper spray)

[LakeviewBulldog]

I think as far as self defense rounds go I've always been in the 45 ACP camp. And to me, the argument has been settled when the Marines on the pointiest tip of the spear said that their 9mm pistols were not cutting it and the Marine Corps ordered the new Colt M45A1 CQB for the newly formed Marine Raiders. Now I just wish I had an extra $1600 to buy one...

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Say, did you ever hear the one about little silver jingle bells and pepper spray?

[Smoke4320]

All you need is a sprinkling of liberal fairly dust ..and the bear will go about its merry way

[OS OK]

They say that a grizzly can hold it's own...'speed wise', with a quarter horse in a short run...still that won't be fast enough for him to get to me before I poop my pants so bad that he won't want anything to do with this old fat grey haired fart slinger!

I'm gonna carry just a big stick and a change of drawers...charlie

[quilbilly]

I once watched a 400# fat black bear run down a healthy full grown doe over open ground in S. Kalifornia. Can't imagine a grizzly being slower.

[M-Tecs]

Killing under ideal or lucky circumstances is one thing. Stopping shots under less than ideal or unlucky circumstances total different matter.

[RPRNY]

Well, obviously .22 rimfire is plenty for Grizz. I note that the bear was dead and everyone else was alive. Proof enough.*


And I encourage anyone who believes that to act accordingly.











* http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sarcasm

[Rufus Krile]

The 22lr round is adequate if used properly. You use it to shoot your hiking buddy in the knee. You can't outrun the bear but...

[Der Gebirgsjager]

About 15 years ago I lived well out in the countryside. A neighbor phoned one day and asked if I seen the mountain lion hanging around my upper pasture. She said that she'd seen it on three different afternoons during the past week when driving past on the county road. This gave me pause for thought, as I walked up my lane to my mailbox every afternoon. This gave me the wonderful opportunity to buy another pistol just perfectly suited for mountain lion defense, and I found the perfect thing, an S&W Lew Horton special Mod. 629 with a 3 inch Magnaported barrel. Short, potent, easy to carry. Of course, I did have another dozen handguns that would have served the purpose just as well. Never did see the lion, but after owning it for about two years a couple of the gun guys and I went shooting up in the mountains and the 629 proved a real revelation. I took careful aim and fired one off. There was a blinding flash, although it was broad daylight, an ear splitting roar due to the porting, and the thing recoiled muzzle straight up almost like I was aiming for a bird. The concussion made me feel like my nose was about to bleed. Somewhat in shock, :shock: I decided to bear down on it and the second shot was just like the first. I just kind of numbly handed it to the guy on my right. He fired one shot and handed it to the guy on his right, who did the same, and returned it to me with two rounds still in the cylinder. They politely declined to fire the remaining two rounds. I know David Crockett named his rifle "Ol' Betsy," or so the story goes. This one got put back in the box with a label that says, "The Beast." And there it resides to this day. So, based on this experience of flash, concussion :not listening: , and recoil I'm thinking that probably like a .45 Colt or .45 ACP would be the way to go. As fast as bears charge, I doubt if I'd be able to re-acquire the target and get a second shot off with The Beast. The 9mm wouldn't be my first choice, but it worked for him! Bears have pretty thick skulls and getting a .22 L.R. into the brain would be luck.

[RPRNY]

Again, the key issue in the Shoemaker story seems to escape people.

The debate is not whether 9mm worked or not. It did work.

The issue is that it was irresponsible for a guide to take clients into the area with a 9mm pistol for their defense. In that case, the fact that it worked, this time, is not good enough.

As individuals, we should use whatever damn thing we want to for bear defense, from gentle chastisement to sprays, sling shots, pistols, and even things that might stop a charging bear. As a guide, with a responsibility to provide best efforts at defending the client, carrying a 9mm "because it's more convenient" is a gross dereliction of duty. A client should have the reasonable expectation that his/her guide will use the best defense mechanism reasonably practical, not the most comfortable one that might work.

I understand that fending off a grizz attack and killing the bear with a 9mm pistol is the stuff of guide legend so I get Shoemaker making much of it, but the fact remains that he made a poor decision and had a lucky outcome.

[jhalcott]

There are lots of stories about bears taking multiple hits. To the skull with .357 and even .45 HANDguns..some9mm loads out penetrate those rounds. And the auto has more rounds on tap then the revolver..I would prefer to pack my own defensive arm. If legal

[Good Cheer]

If makes any difference, I once knew a fella that scared off a bear with a pen knife after having a five hundred dollar after dinner drink.

Never did figure out where the bear got that much money.

[Ole Joe Clarke]

More popcorn please! :D

[Capt. Methane]

They were acting like cats-ambush predators. Knowing that they were cornered they waited till the last moment they could assure a surprise shot with the best chance of a kill and took it.

Can it be done? Yes, under the right circumstances. I'll bet they wouldn't have gone grizzly hunting deliberately with a .22 though...

Best case situation executed by a skilled shooter and a spotter-their success was due to their awareness of their surroundings.

Not something I'd want to try to repeat myself...certainly not on purpose.

Caught in the same situation I could only pray that I could do as well!

[Ramjet-SS]

Here is a rather interesting article on handgun stopping power. Take the time to read the data and understand we are talking humans here some may frankly have been very doped up on PCPs. The point does relate to the recycling of this story.

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power

[6bg6ga]

You don't need a gun at all...simple wait till the bear is close and kick him in the nutz

[NoAngel]

I'm still looking for that part of the story where the bear was hit in the lungs with a {insert adequate cartridge} before she made her shot. LOL!!!!

[white eagle]

wait let me pull my boots up

[TXGunNut]

Just because you could, and somebody apparently did, doesn't mean you should. We all know Darwin was right about some things so there's no reason to keep proving it. ;-)

[tdoyka]

i would have shot the bear in a 50 alaskan revolver with a 525 wfn instead of some puny 9mm.;-)

[Ballistics in Scotland]

A bear has a rather large heart and lungs, and unquestionably if you got into a position such as a tree or space between solid objects which gave you time to put a number of shots close to the right place, the bear would die fairly quickly. Under other circumstances fairly quickly isn't good enough, and aimed in a state of panic isn't good enough. With a tiger, which is programmed to kill and eat moving prey, there is a better chance that fainting away will give you a better chance. But with a bear or lion, which will eat carrion, that is unlikely. The most constructive of all things you can do, if such a confrontation is likely, is to carry a rifle.

[44man]

A human is different until drugged to the nines where the brain does not work. Animals are not wired that way so you must stop the CNS. Shoot a man in the chest and he will drop but even a deer can run 100 yards. A big bear can just keep after you if you cause pain or show a threat to young.
Sure you can kill most with a .22 but I never heard of an elephant killed with one. Skeletal structure can mean bone so thick and tough, bullets just flatten out on a skull. Headache to make them meaner. A .22 can penetrate more then a nine or .38 but are you prepared to shoot a charging bear between the eyes? Not a cow or hog in a gate.
I had a neighbor that came back from the second world war, he was shot through the head with an 8mm Mauser. He got along but was fuzzy. He killed the German after being hit.
ME, I want nothing less then my .475 for backup with a bear. A .44 might be low on the list for me but it sure beats a nine.
To carry a nine with a client against DG is absurd and you can meet a pile of lawyers.
Now a .22 is the best since French Toast. Lord have mercy on you.

[Lead Fred]

The debate has just begun, get the popcorn out!!

175803

[MT Gianni]

I have seen one outside the Park systems and several inside. Of the two outside of a vehicle, one was the North end of a very fast southbound bear the other responded favorably to my request at 60 yards or so. "Go away bear." Lets not overthink this, dead is dead. We may choose to carry something else but his choice worked.

[44man]

A story for you, PA with a bear over 400#. I had a stand in a small tree near an apple tree. I had to climb the tree next to mine to get in. No harness so I used the rope I pulled my bow with to tie myself in. My friend was in another tree and I told him to go up to THAT branch but he was afraid and was only 10' up. I heard screaming from him, then running on the trail I walked, Thought a buck so got ready. Then my tree shook like crazy. I looked down to see the bear climbing under me. Can't shoot a bear then and a bow straight down does not work when sitting. This sucker was HUGE! I told the bear to get down, go away. Just talked to him. I think my tree was too small so he backed down and went to the apple tree. He went up and tore the tree up, climb down, eat a bushel and do it again. Near dark he left but walked past my tree and rammed it with his shoulder so I was waving like crazy. I got down and went to my friend with a white face, the bear had stood up with paws on his stand. When we got to the road, a guy was walking back and forth on it. The bear had broken into his camper and his clothes were strewn all over.
Now a .22 pistol in the bears head at 4' would work but not allowed in PA. I truly wanted bear meat but can't have it in jail. All I had was an arrow in my hand to poke with. Strange state that allows no protection at all. Liberal so call 911 and after the bear picks his teeth, they will take your remains and send them home but your family pays postage!
I have been around many, many large black bears and have little fear of them. But a griz or brown is something that is 1 second to death. They can out run a quarter horse so the stupid carry a toy and think they can draw and hit a dime. There is a reason for pepper and removing the front sight.

[starmac]

My wifes cousin guided black bear hunts, this was with dogs and the bears were generally (pretty much always) treed, so very easy shooting.
One hunter made a bad shot and the bear left the tree (these are black bears) and he cut the dogs loose, which run it a ways and into a scrub oak thicket. After a while the dogs went silent, so figuring it had died he went in after it on his hands and knees. When he got to where he could see it the dogs were just sitting there except for one which was chewing on the bear, but the bear rolled his head and spotted him.
Chuck was on his hands and knees, and said all he had time to do, from the time the bear rolled his head till he hit him, was to hit him like a football player.

He was packing a 9MM browning high power and it did kill the bear, but it was after a pretty good wrestling match where he was chewed up pretty bad. He wound up with his hand and browning in the bears mouth and kept pulling the trigger until it jammed, he didn't know if the last shot killed it, or it just finally died.
He wound up with a pretty good hospital stay, and I never ask, but I doubt he ever carried a 9 in the woods again.