Twist rate for a TC Hawken rebore 45 to 50cal

[Edward]

I have a 45cal 15/16 ,29 inch barrel 1-48 twist that shoots okay but I would like to shoot the lee C501-440-RF paperpatched for hunting. I have GM 1 inch barrels set up for long range 45/50 cal with venier sights but to heavy and fragile with veniers to hunt with so I am looking to send this barrel to Mr Hoyt for a rebore and wonder if there are any opinions on twist rate .I already shoot 1-30 in the 1 inch GM barrels with good results but always looking for better if possible ,furthest shooting would be 150-200 yds .Thanks Ed

[Tatume]

S&W uses 1:18.75" rifling twist in the revolver for which the bullet was designed, so that's a starting point. However, if it was me, I'd ask Mr. Hoyt.

However, I question your choice of molds. The unwrapped bullet should be considerably smaller for paper patching. Assuming 0.006" cut rifling and a 0.500" groove diameter, you would have a 0.488" bore diameter. You will probably add 0.012" in paper wraps to the bullet and want the finished diameter to be 0.488", so you would start with 0.476. Therefore, Lee 476-400-RF appears to be a better mold for your application.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/266174/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-476-400-rf-480-ruger-475-linebaugh-476-diameter-400-grain-flat-nose#details

[Tatume]

I'll add this note. I'm having a new paper patch ML built myself. I'm spending a lot of money on it. Instead of trying to save a few bucks by using a pistol bullet mold, I bought a smooth-sided mold from Accurate Molds. I got exactly what I wanted, and have very high confidence that the bullets will shoot well.

For example:
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-540P-D.png

Tom will adjust the diameter and weight to whatever you request.

[Edward]

As to my boolit choice I size to .446 /2 wraps 9lb onion skin and size to .501 which loads easy and shoots well to 300 yds w/80gr of BH 209 with 1-30 twist.Again this works for me but the whole set up is way to heavy for walking around (I am getting old) hence the lighter stock/barrel for hunting and no I do not plan on shooting game @ 300yds,but I do have a 700yd to play with my one inch barrels.This thread was just to inquire about twists other than what I use now /Thanks Ed

[Tatume]

In that case, anything between 1:16" and 1:20" will do just fine.

I'd probably go with 1:18" because at least theoretically it should shoot the lighter 440 grain bullet better than the 1:16", and is more likely to shoot heavier bullets (500 grains plus, should you change your mind) better than the 1:20" twist. However, I doubt any of this will be measurable on the target.

[bubba.50]

IdahoRon, Sam Koger, Johnson1942 and others seem to have good results usin' that bullet paper-patched in their 1 in 28 twist Green Mountain barrels.

[Good Cheer]

The old TC manual I have gives:
.45 rifle, max load 100 grains of FFg with a 320 grain lead bullet
.50 rifle, max load 100 grains of FFg with a 460-470 grain lead bullet
So, with a 440 grain .50 caliber it looks like you're gonna be in the safety zone as far as what TC said about their 15/16" barrels.

On the twist rate, are you thinking to go as slow as will work?
From what I've seen on muzzleloaders with .40 and .458 through .69 bore the slower the better just so long as it's fast enough.

[Tatume]

Like I said, if it was me, I'd ask Mr. Hoyt for his recommendation.

[Edward]

Hey bubba 50 that"s your GM 50 and it sure is a shooter ,had to buy a new GM 45 just to keep up with the (Jones)Thanks again/Ed

[bubba.50]

good to know it's workin' for ya & that yer enjoyin' it so much. I got caught up readin' all the posts about the wonders of patchin' bullets that I bought two or three GM barrels for my T/C's. but then I got to figgerin' on all the other stuff I'd need, moulds, sizers, paper, plus learnin' how it all worked together, plus I got to thinkin' how the longest shot I ever made on deer was 75yds or less & most of my paper-punchin' at 50 or 60. as my granny would say "it didn't look like the fun would pay for the trouble" so, I let them go so's others could discover the joys of paper-patchin'.

much luck to ya & have a good'en, bubba.

[johnson1942]

badger barrels when they were makeing barrels used a 1/27 twist for the 50 cal. bpcr barrels. a 1/28 to 1/32 is best for 50 cal muzzleloader hunting barrels.

[OnHoPr]

plus I got to thinkin' how the longest shot I ever made on deer was 75yds or less & most of my paper-punchin' at 50 or 60.


That's the furthest you ever shot a deer in your spring chicken of a life time? Maybe new specs would help. Deer just don't appear from 75 yards and in. They have to come from somewhere before that. Or, do you just prefer the swamps, thickets, and thick holler? I though there would be longer shootin on those Appalachian mountains from ridge to ridge or ridge to gully. Do you get them when they are coming into the mash.

[Good Cheer]

Could open the office window and use the .41 Model 1858 Remington...

http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/the%20daily%20parade_zpsjn0bk3uo.jpg (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/SNARGLEFLERK/media/the%20daily%20parade_zpsjn0bk3uo.jpg.html)

[Good Cheer]

For what it's worth, went with 24" twist to shoot off the shelf molds in .458 bore and 28" twist in .52 bore.

[idahoron]

I have been using the Lee bullet paper patched for so many years I could never go back. My rifles have 1-28 twist. I don't know if that is the perfect twist or not. All I know is that load is good to 250 yards easy and punches big holes in deer, elk and antelope. If you use lead that is 6 to 7 BHN you can wrap the paper and size dry after and have good luck. I have a .496 sizer so I can size to .496 then again to .501 and do it that way on harder lead. If the lead is under 7 BHN you don't need the extra step.
I have killed and I have seen a lot of game killed with the Lee C-501-440-RF. Finding bullets in animals doesn't happen often. I have found one in a cow that I shot in the shoulder and the bullet was found in the flank. My son shot a small buck last year in the flank and the bullet was found under the skin by his jaw.
Paper patching and sizing is not hard to do. I did a short video on it this is it.

https://youtu.be/RmARVEFJbr0

[Buckshot Bill]

That's the furthest you ever shot a deer in your spring chicken of a life time? Maybe new specs would help. Deer just don't appear from 75 yards and in. They have to come from somewhere before that. Or, do you just prefer the swamps, thickets, and thick holler? I though there would be longer shootin on those Appalachian mountains from ridge to ridge or ridge to gully. Do you get them when they are coming into the mash.

Just because you can see a deer @ 200 doesn't mean you have to shoot it where it stands. Besides, some areas it's hard to see a deer over 50 or 60 in densely wooded areas.

[montana_charlie]

As to my boolit choice I size to .446 /2 wraps 9lb onion skin and size to .501 which loads easy and shoots well to 300 yds w/80gr of BH 209 with 1-30 twist.
That must be a special kind of 9 lb paper. Is it called tracing paper or air mail paper or some other descriptive label?

My paper patched bullet comes out of the mould at .452", and two dry wraps of 9 pound 'onionskin' brings it up to a hair less than .460".
Others have often described their patching of .446" bullets, and they get up to about .451" ... nothing near fifty caliber.

[Edward]

You are correct ,should have said .496 the 446 is my 45 GM barrel not the 50 cal , you must have missed the part where I said I was getting (older)

[OnHoPr]

Just because you can see a deer @ 200 doesn't mean you have to shoot it where it stands. Besides, some areas it's hard to see a deer over 50 or 60 in densely wooded areas.

Well, if one is at 200 yds what are you suppose to do, let it walk around for video footage? Hey, I use buckshot when appropriate. I use RBs as well. I have PPed the Lee. I also use the TC Shockwave with 150 gr of powder. I also use 12 ga slugs. I will use a 94 30-30 w/cast when the chance arises. I also have a 300 WM that pushes a 165 gr BT 3200 fps.

Whether in the shotgun zone in a small wood lot where the sun goes underneath the canopy and there is 10,000 pencil sapplings in it to make short range shooting or a cut corn field, where ever the deer are and you see them shoot em. Same with the rifile zone. If you are in a cedar swamp or 15 year old cutting with a gazillion sapplings the short range weapon is used. When you get to the hardwood ridges many of the weapons could work. When you are watching a power line, clear cut, or the ridges around a 10 acre lake get the long range gun out.

[Buckshot Bill]

Well, if one is at 200 yds what are you suppose to do, let it walk around for video footage? Hey, I use buckshot when appropriate. I use RBs as well. I have PPed the Lee. I also use the TC Shockwave with 150 gr of powder. I also use 12 ga slugs. I will use a 94 30-30 w/cast when the chance arises. I also have a 300 WM that pushes a 165 gr BT 3200 fps.

Whether in the shotgun zone in a small wood lot where the sun goes underneath the canopy and there is 10,000 pencil sapplings in it to make short range shooting or a cut corn field, where ever the deer are and you see them shoot em. Same with the rifile zone. If you are in a cedar swamp or 15 year old cutting with a gazillion sapplings the short range weapon is used. When you get to the hardwood ridges many of the weapons could work. When you are watching a power line, clear cut, or the ridges around a 10 acre lake get the long range gun out.

I going to wager that the concept of stalking and/or letting the game work it's way in is a foreign concept to you...........

Besides, I'm sure that 200 yard deer isn't the last one you'll see in the whole wide world. Not saying you can't or shouldn't take a longer range shot, just saying terrain, weapon and personal preference/ability are all factors in deciding whether or not you take a shot that far. Maybe where bubba hunts is all thicker wooded areas which limits his range, or maybe bubba is just a very skilled hunter and can place himself closer to the deer and doesn't NEED to shoot any further than 75 yards, maybe it's both?

[OnHoPr]

I didn't mean to be disparaging or show mockery. It is just seemed unusual for a lifetime of deer harvesting 75 yards was the longest shot. Even when I hunt the thicker stuff going to an back even on an old two track deer can be seen at longer distances.


I going to wager that the concept of stalking and/or letting the game work it's way in is a foreign concept to you...........

Besides, I'm sure that 200 yard deer isn't the last one you'll see in the whole wide world.

Nope, not to much in MI. It is basically like Viet Nam. Probably something like your week season in the SE NF of your state. There isn't a whole lot of stalking on a 100 acre farm, the deer come through you shoot them. That is if you can see one. Sometimes you might not see a deer the whole season/s. No, its nothing like the Outdoor Channel or ESPN Saturdays TV shows. Now, if you got to do a little slippin through lightly hunted ridges then the concept may be considered.

[bubba.50]

That's the furthest you ever shot a deer in your spring chicken of a life time? Maybe new specs would help. Deer just don't appear from 75 yards and in. They have to come from somewhere before that. Or, do you just prefer the swamps, thickets, and thick holler? I though there would be longer shootin on those Appalachian mountains from ridge to ridge or ridge to gully. Do you get them when they are coming into the mash.


sure, there's places you can take long shots. I could go where they've removed the mountaintops minin' coal but, you'd hafta meet the deer at the edge & pack him a lunch so's he could make it across to where ya could shoot him.

or I could go where they've timbered the national forest 'til everything that would make a 'mater stake has been cut, nothin left except what's to small or disfigured to use for anything. but the brush & limbs are about waist deep & you'd hafta bulldoze a road to be able to carry a deer out of it.

but, I'd rather set-up in a fence line or small patch of brush on a farm, in sight of the truck, wait for one to pass from the field back to the pine thickets & invite'im to come have supper with me.

but, to tell the truth, they're so plentiful here ya don't even need a gun to get one. the last four I've killed were 1 with a Toyota truck, 2 with a splittin' maul, and 1 with a cast-iron hammer from the foundry where I used to work.

[Good Cheer]

If I could just keep them off my berry vines I'd be a happy man.
Put up remesh barriers and the little guys just reach under and nibble while the mamas watch.
[smilie=b:

Yell at them and they give you the tail with Vinny Barbarino looks.

I'd wanted to use my .40 bore but Indie says .44 minimum.