Buckshot Questions.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Hi everyone.
I'm planning on ordering all I need for buckshots and slugs or round balls soon.

All shooting will be done with a 19" barreled Remington 870 smooth bore. No chokes.

I have a 00 buck mould but was reading that the #4 buck might be more versatile and have more load data available. Any suggestions on one vs the other?
For slugs I hear the 7/8oz Lee is the way to go. Will this be better than the round ball in the smooth bore?

I understand there will be plenty of playing around to get the proper combo to work well enough but I was hoping for some suggestions as to what hull or hulls to start with, what wads etc. What else? I figured on picking up some card wads and some fiber wads and such for building the column for proper crimp.

I'll be loading on a MEC 650 and or a Lee Load All.

Thanks for the suggestions. I know I'm asking a lot of questions. Sorry I'm just trying to narrow down some options and not order one of everything from BPI.

[PerpetualStudent]

#4 vs 00 buck is an old debate that really depends on what theories you subscribe to (I'm fond of #1 and 000 buck myself for the small and large size options). While you are ordering from BPI their buckshot manual may be worth it to you if you really want a lot of options. To a point you can sub out shot weight for weight, same weight buck will take up different space so that's only true to a point. BPI also notes that adding felt or cork inside the wad to adjust stack height won't affect pressures so a recipe for 00 should be safe to swap out for #4. Verify for yourself but I believe that's true.

[mcdaniel.mac]

Assuming social work, I tend to favor #1, having seen what a 16ga #1 does to hogs from an 18" barrel. Still within FBI specs for penetration minimum, doesn't tend to exit an 18" gel block so overpentration isn't an issue, and you get more in there, to the tune of 16 pellets #1 vs 9 pellets in a standard 2.75" load. I understand #4 was used with effect in 'Nam, but physiology does play in as the average NVA fighter was much smaller stem to stern, less muscle mass and fat than the average American. #4 on a fat guy or a muscular person might not get as good penetration, and #00 isn't as dense a pattern, fewer chances to perforate the vena cava or aorta, or to damage the spinal column.

I have nothing to add on slugs.

[Hogtamer]

If that barrel is a fixed improved cylinder (stamped on left side of barrel) it will greatly enhance performance over a wide range of loads. My choice for a "just in case" scenario is the lee 7/8 and the "perfect" buckshot load described in a recent thread.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Thanks guys! Great info!
The reason I was leaning towards those sizes in the shot was because Lee offers moulds for it. I would not be opposed to a #1 but I did not see a mould in that size.
Looking for the perfect buckshot thread now


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[Outpost75]

"The Truth About Buckshot" - American Rifleman October, 1982


The article summarizes the results of firing approximately 500 patterns with Remington Express 12-ga. buffered buckshot loads, without shot wrapper from Model 870 shotguns. Firings were conducted by NRA Technical Staff, at the FBI Academy using test materials provided by Remington. The article published in American Rifleman was oriented towards deer hunting for political reasons. Ten patterns each were fired at 25 and 40 yards, from cylinder, improved cylinder, modified and full choked barrels. The cylinder and IC barrels were both 20 inches. The modified and full choked barrels were standard field barrels of 26" and 28", respectively.

While modified and full 20 inch police and military barrels were also tested also, those results were not included in the published article, because of the desire to maintain a "sporting" focus. Other than an insignificant drop in velocity, results with the shorter, more tightly choked barrels was not materially different from the common sporting-length barrels.

The same Remington 870 receiver was fired repeatedly interchanging the four different barrels.

Patterns were fired against a 48" square plate of AR500 steel 3/8" thick, photographed and the oiled pigment rebrushed between shots. Pellet hits were plotted in relation to a clear plastic overlay having a 30" outer circle, positioned to contain the greatest number of pellets, with a 21.2" inner circle, the 30" circle and inner ring being quartered into eight equal-area fields. The 21.2" inner circle approximates the major torso area of an Army "E" or FBI silhouette. Pellets striking inside the inner ring have a greater probability of striking vital organs, whereas those on the fringe outside the inner circle, within the 30" outer ring are more likely to cause non-life threatening wounds to the extremities.

A 100% pattern in which all pellets strike within the 30" ring may be ineffective unless the center of the pattern surrounding the aiming point contains more than three hits. The combination of soft buckshot, unbuffered loads and tight chokes increased pellet deformation which can result in "doughnut" shaped patterns having weak centers.

WW2, Korean and Vietnam-era Army experience indicates that fewer than three pellet hits of 00 buckshot do not produce instant incapacitation, unless one or more of those pellets strike vital areas of the head, neck, or chest. With random distribution of as few as three pellets in the 21.2" circle, hitting a vital spot depends mostly on luck and random variations of chance. More hits are better!

A single 00 pellet at a range of 30 yards has a kinetic energy of about 120 ft.-lbs. Three pellet hits produce 360 ft.-lbs., which approximates the kinetic energy of a single round of .45 cal. M1911 Ball ammunition fired from the service pistol. More than three pellet hits, when their combined effect is distributed over the body, produce greater shock to the nervous and vascular systems and vital organs struck than a single projectile hit having the same kinetic energy.

For law enforcement and military purposes 4 or more hits of 00 buck is considered "adequate" performance, producing a high probability of instant incapacitation. Any shotgun-ammo combination reliably producing 5 hits with 00 at realistic combat ranges from 25 to 40 yards is said to provide "good" performance. More than 5 hits is considered "excellent."

The standard Remington Express 9-pellet buffered load of 00 buck with no shot sleeve, fired from an 870 cylinder bore 20" riot gun averages 8.9 hits in the 30" circle and 7.1 in the 21.2" inner ring at 25 yards. This falls off to 7.5 and 3.3 hits at 40 yards.

Repeating the test using a 20-inch improved cylinder barrel, all nine pellets strike in the 30" circle and 8.6 in the 21.2" inner ring at 25 yards. Repeating the test again, at 40 yards, the IC barrel produced 8.0 and 4.4 hits, respectively. For civilian home defense purposes the 20" improved cylinder "Brushmaster" or "Deer" barrels with rifle sights give dependable performance.

For combat use the 12-pellet "short-magnum" load of 00 buck is a better choice in 2-3/4" chambered guns, if you can tolerate additional recoil. Even though the pattern percentages produced are lower, you can expect one additional pellet hit inside the inner ring.

If you wish to maximize pellet count to optimize pattern density, while still having adequate penetration to defeat interior walls or auto glass, the 20-pellet "short magnum" load of No.1 buck is probably the best choice. No.1 buckshot weigh 40 grains each, producing 103 ft.-lbs. at the muzzle, 69 ft.-lbs. at 30 yards and 61-ft.-lbs. at 40 yards. It takes nearly twice as many pellet hits with No.1 to produce the same kinetic energy as half the number of 00, so 6 pellet hits are marginal, 8 "adequate" and ten or more "good" performance.

No. 4 buck weigh only 20.7 grains each, and have 81 ft. lbs. of energy per pellet at the muzzle, 45 ft. lbs. at 30 yards and 41 ft. lbs. at 40 yards. Experience has shown that despite excellent pattern density, their penetration is inadequate, except perhaps for interior guard use where risk of collateral damage must be minimized.

The entire article is worth reading if you are curious about how other loads and chokes performed, but the above gives you what we really need to know.

[mcdaniel.mac]

Thanks guys! Great info!
The reason I was leaning towards those sizes in the shot was because Lee offers moulds for it. I would not be opposed to a #1 but I did not see a mould in that size.
Looking for the perfect buckshot thread now


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Lee does make a .311 double cavity round ball and .310 round ball six-cavity mold. Not as quick as their 18-cavity buckshot loads, but it gets the job done.

[GhostHawk]

The advantage of the 6 cavity .310 mold is no clipping required. In the long run I think you can get more balls ready for loading in less time using that mold.

I have two sharpshooter molds, and while they work very well you do spend a fair amount of time clipping balls from sprue. Also I suspect the sprue cutter on the lee mold will leave you with a better finished product. All depends on how fussy you are of course.

As to wads, while at BPI you might take a peek at their PT series of 12 ga wads. I have Pt1215 wads on their way to me right now so I can not say how well they will work, yet. PT 1205 is a 7/8ths oz load with short petals for loading slugs.

You may want to do a youtube search for bubba roundtree outdoors as he has done video's on loading Lee drive key slugs both 1 oz and 7/8ths oz. Along with Buckshot from Sharpshooter and Lee Buckshot molds. He mostly uses common range pickup hulls, the PT 1215 wads. Common powders like Red Dot, longshot, etc.

[jmort]

I find this most useful in deciding on what size shot to use. I ended up going with .310" but have molds for #000 and #00 and #0 (a great size as well as it stacks better than #00) and #1 and #.5 what I call .310"
I have a lot of molds, but the Lee 6 cavity .310" gets the most use.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/02/robert-farago/shotgun-penetration-with-various-rounds/

[cpileri]

Dixie Slugs, 12 gauge2 3/4" 1 Buck Special.

new primed 2.75” Cheddite straight walled hull.
32 grs(2.8 cc) of Alliant Blue Dot –
LBC43mmwad: wad must be slit twice down to the inside base - just follow the moldline on each side, dust the wad inside and out with powdered mica –
16 #1BPI hard buckshot (stacked two on two) – (640gr, just <1.5oz)
PrecisionSpherical Buffer Sufficient to just cover the top layer of pellets -
overshotcard wad, Roll Crimp—
vel1220'/" - 10,700 psi.

There seems to still be quite a few fine 2 3/4"guns out there! This load'spattern was tested by Joey Saunders out of a Remington 1100 (.690" fullchoke). This load put 8 #1's inside of a 10" circle at a measured 40yards.

3" version
newprimed 3” Cheddite straight walled hull.
32 grs(2.8 cc) of Alliant Blue Dot –
LBC50 mmwad: wad must be slit twice down to the inside base - just follow the moldline on each side, dust the wad inside and out with powdered mica –
18 #1BPI hard buckshot (stacked two on two) – (720gr, just<1.75oz)
PrecisionSpherical Buffer Sufficient to just cover the top layer of pellets -
overshotcard wad, Roll Crimp—
vel 1150’/" - ?? psi.

[runfiverun]

I went the hard route with my 00 and trial and errored different wads and pellet counts.
at 25 yds I ended up using 9 pellets in the rxp type R-12H wad and 3 stacks of 3 pellets in the federal gold medal hull.
some of the other hulls I used were the Remington gun club and their black colored field hull from day's gone by.
in those I could stack 4 rows of 2 and experimented with linked pairs.
speeding up and slowing down the load does change the pattern size, and an overshot card was most useful in obtaining a good flat crimp.

anyway even with good known loads be prepared to do some experimenting and some shooting.
I ended up making my shot using full on ww alloy with no tin added and it provides better penetration I also had to round out and graphite cover my shot.
the end results are working for me within a specific window after that window I might as well use a slingshot if I want accuracy, and going to a slug would be a better option.
but up to that point hiding behind a fridge or 2 car doors means nothing.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Great point on snipping shot strings from the 18 cavity. Not to mention they really need to be tumbled after that or they all have little nipples on them.
I think I'm going to pick up a couple properly sized Lee DC round ball moulds.
Running 2 or 3 at a time would make a lot of shot quick.

The barrel is a cylinder bore right now too. If that is going to give poor results I can send it to a local guy to have it set up for screw in chokes again.

I was planning on using my cut down 870 but looking at my vintage 870 I picked up for a song a couple months back. I realized its the old school steel trigger housing. I think I'm going to make that into my new house gun.



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[6pt-sika]

I now keep nine sizes of buckshot on my shelf and by far #4 is used the LEAST of the bunch . My favorites are probably #0 and #1 . Although here recently I really like the 00000 and 0000 in my 10 gauge guns . I might add these two large ones are the only ones I cast and if I ever need anymore 0000 above what I've cast I'll just order 8 or 16 pounds from BPI with the 00000 I don't have that option .

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

#4 buck is good for varmints up to coyote size (my favorite BTW). Beyond that, maybe not so good due to insufficient penetration. Everything has its place.