Overwhelmed By Self Defense Ammo Options

[ArrowJ]

Earlier this year I bought a Springfield Armory XD Mod.2 Subcompact 9mm for home protection and eventual CCW. I have been rolling my own cast loads for practice and to familiarize myself with the gun. While I am not ready to step up to CCW just yet, I am ready to load the gun for home defense.

The first thing I did was search the Interwebs for articles of ammo reviews specific to my firearm. The next thing I did was to search for articles on self defense ammo in general. Finally, I made the huge mistake of looking at the selection of defensive ammo on MidwayUSA.

Frankly, buying 10 boxes of this stuff to put through my gun is outside my budget. The best I can currently do is buy one box to shoot through it to ensure it functions, and one to load into the mags for use should a threat enter my home.

Now I realize this is a hornets nest here, but I am willing to take the chance. I need a a little advice on picking one of the seven gazillion options available.

One author felt that 125 grain ammo would not expand well at velocities typical for subcompact barrels. Of course there is ammo specifically designed for these barrel lengths now so...

I was considering one of the following but am open to anything...other than handloads.

Cor-Bon DPX Ammunition 9mm Luger +P 115 Grain DPX Hollow Point Lead-Free
Barnes TAC-XPD Ammunition 9mm Luger +P 115 Grain TAC-XP Hollow Point Lead-Free
Cor-Bon Self-Defense Ammunition 9mm Luger +P 90 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point
Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Ammunition 9mm Luger +P 124 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point
Hornady Critical Defense Ammunition 9mm Luger 115 Grain Flex Tip eXpanding


What I want to hear is, "That Hornady stuff is amazing!" because it is cheaper and comes in boxes of 25 :) Seriously, I would like to hear some honest opinions about ammo selection, and maybe some anecdotal evidence of performance in specific firearms etc. Anything you are willing to contribute would be appreciated.

[jmort]

I like this

https://www.underwoodammo.com/9mm-luger-90-grain-xtreme-defender/

[bmortell]

look at federal hst, expanded they look more like some tarantula shaped artwork than a hollow point. there's several versions in 9mm hst I think one is mentioned for short barrels specifically. but whatever your looking at buying youtube could probably show you it in ballistic gell with high speed camera.

[35remington]

Look at mousegunsandgear online. Many gel tested loads to compare in 9mm short barrels.

Make that mousegunaddict

[OptimusPanda]

Here's three youtube channels to check out. There's all kinds of test barrel lengths and ammo choices here.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv2qBjXtz7pjF4WnkMzA3dw (tnoutdoors9)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAWFWuY7JafjZNE_dG8BshA (shootingthebull410)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQN1DJNlSz3AlvY74jwflIg (scubaoz)

This is by no means everything you'll find on youtube but it's a good place to start.

[rintinglen]

Forget the notion of a "magic" bullet. Having a "perfect" ammunition in the gun will not substitute for good shot placement. That said, you pays your money and you takes your choice.

Every one of the loads you have listed is well tested. Anyone of them will likely do what you want it to do. I would ask your local police officers what they are issued, and if you can, buy that. If you can't get what the police use, or if they won't divulge that information to "civilians," then just pick one, buy a couple of boxes and try it in your gun. If it works, buy a couple more boxes and try them. If even one doesn't work in YOUR gun, stop-try something else. Repeat until you find one that always works in your gun and is accurate. Develop a reload that hits at about the same place on the target and shoot a bunch of them. Improving your skill level is more important than having the perfect load.

[Driver33]

The Hornady has been reliable and accurate out of my 3 9mm handguns.

[jcren]

I have hornady extreme defense in my 38, hornady American gunner (xtp bullet) in both 380's and hornady American gunner in both 45's. I reload for all of these and have several partial remaining boxes of more expensive ammo (barnes, gold dot, sabre). The hornady has never failed to feed, never shed a jacket in testing, and every one I have ever recovered from any medium, dirt or critter up to large dog, expanded to exactly 1.5 original diameter.

[Texantothecore]

An emt I talked with says that the bullet track for all of them is nearly identical.

[lefty o]

An emt I talked with says that the bullet track for all of them is nearly identical.
since when have EMT's started doing post morten exams? lol

[JWT]

Good info here http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

[dubber123]

That tnoutdoors9 dude on Youtube has many good gel tests through denim, a lot of 9mm stuff, and some short barrel tests. I chose the HST from Federal. One of the most consistent I saw. Velocity was what they claimed too, and that is not always the case.

[GRUMPA]

I view things in a real simplistic manner.

It's all about "Terminal Performance" with what happens "After" the bullet hits its target. Things are the way they are and with "Hype" the way it is folks are lead to believe that a 9mm is advertised to take out a tank.

There's what's called "Stress fire" in any given situation that requires a person to do what they really don't want to do. Accuracy is key and hitting that bullseye at 25' all the time isn't the same as doing it in a "Stress Fire" situation. Shot placement is key.....but if the other person is doped up on God knows what the results are going to be different.

My way of thinking is the slow heavy object wins the contest, that is if shot placement is done right.

So as far as the "So called" performance ammo is concerned......they put a fancy name on it and make claims to get more of what's in your wallet into thiers. Marketing works pretty well to those that want to believe.

[DerekP Houston]

Im guilty of just carrying regular 124gr 9mm ball factory ammo. in my 380 its handloaded 92gr lead with slightly more powder than my practice rounds. With the 2 small pistols I conceal carry I worry more about getting hits on target then GTFO.

[jonp]

The fact is that all self defense ammo from major manu's will work just fine. It comes down to personnal preference.

In my pocket and light weight firearms I prefer Federal Low Recoil. In others a Gold Dot or the like

[ArrowJ]

All gone d stuff. I appreciate it! I am going to try not to overthink it...but I will still have to watch some of those videos :)

[nagantguy]

it is over whelming, don't worry about it to much, about half of jhps fail to expand at hand gun velocities, so double and triple tap, why BECAUSE YOU FEARED FOR YOUR LIFE!!!!. also it's nice if our selected jhps are match grade accurate, 8.5 ×11 is the nra standard for combat accuracy, you know what else is 8.5 ×11 a human thoracic cavity!
also best thing to.do is call your LOCAL PD and ask what their duty ammo is, I carry speer gold.dots cause it's what my county sheriff issues, that answer will shut down a prosocuter if heaven forbid your involved in a shooting.

[dbarry1]

If this helps - in the legal portion of our ccw class - the attorney that gave it said to ask what local law enforcement uses - and use that. He cited lots of reasons - but that helped narrow my choices. Our local law enforcement uses speer gold dot. Now you just need to narrow down to 115, 125 or 147 grain. Personally - I don't think you could go wrong with any of those.

[jmort]

"...best thing to.do is call your LOCAL PD and ask what their duty ammo is, I carry speer gold.dots cause it's what my county sheriff issues, that answer will shut down a prosocuter if heaven forbid your involved in a shooting."

This is complete nonsense. Ayboob has brainwashed too many people.

[nagantguy]

"...best thing to.do is call your LOCAL PD and ask what their duty ammo is, I carry speer gold.dots cause it's what my county sheriff issues, that answer will shut down a prosocuter if heaven forbid your involved in a shooting."

This is complete nonsense. Ayboob has brainwashed too many people.

please explain? there are times when it's not a good choice like when the dummies in Detroit made the PD switch to fmjs, but for the most part it's one good.solution, and I wasn't taught that buy Ayboob, so your are wrong on top of being snarky and uncivilized, what than is your best solution when the op stated buy 10 brands is out of his budget? I'm sure it's brilliant so tell us.

[JWFilips]

Lead Wad Cutter! All you need

[nagantguy]

agreed, for the most part, when you think of all the game harvested and people killed with pure lead it doesn't take the latest Wizz bang that science/marketing can come up with. I just read a very interesting study put out buy the I believe the buckeye shooting association, I'll post diffrence if I'm wrong, out of all the shootings in Ohio in the year of the study I believe again it was 2009 that the 22lr produced fatal wounds in 34% of the people hit with it from there up through 32, 380, 38, 9mm, 40, 45 it wasn't until .357 mag that any handgun caliber produced 34% fatalities . does that mean 357 is the best? 22lr? does it mean any other caliber is sub par? no it means only hits count and it means a lead round nose 22lr round is as deadly as any other projectile and that misses with the most advanced hollow point from a 9 or 40 or 45 mean nothing.

[tygar]

There's a bunch of good responses.

Personally, I like to get 5 or 6 of the top rated premium ammo for a given caliber, shoot it into wet newspaper, water jugs & thru wood. Then, with the top 2 or 3, or even more, if they looked good, I shoot for accuracy, function & point of aim for that particular gun.

When I have narrowed down to a couple, I get 100 rounds, load them in mags, & run thru them all it once for a final function & accuracy test.

Ya, a little spendy, put my az is worth it. Luckily I can afford it, but I would think something similar could be done with a little less ammo.

Sometimes, I can't find a better ammo than what I have used for years. My Kimber Ultra Carry has been using Black Talons since I got it in the 90s.

There's lots of good stuff out there, just find what works best in your gun. Make sure "you" can do what it takes. I also prescribe to what I was taught in the Marines - 2 in the chest, one in the head! Works every time.

[Bigslug]

The bullets are all made of lead and copper.

They all weigh about the same.

They're all travelling about the same velocity, generated by the same chamber pressures, laid down by the same SAAMI guidelines, so they all work in the same guns.

They're all designed to operate along the same FBI guidelines of penetration and expansion.

The biggest difference? The box. Would recommend you shift your search to something heavier for caliber (125 to 147 grains), but within the major brands being picked up by LE agencies, the differences are mostly about marketing.

[knifemaker]

Most law enforcement agencies I am aware of in my area are using Federal HST ammo in 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP. It has a solid reputation for consistence expansion and penetration. I use it in my Colt defender 1911 that I carry concealed.

[ironhead7544]

I use the 115 gr JHP from CorBon. That load uses the Sierra 115 gr JHP. Since you handload, get a couple of boxes and make some up. That is what I did when I first started using the CorBon. It doesnt have to be a +P loading, you are testing the bullet profile for feeding. My Glocks work perfectly with it and the factory load is the most accurate I have found. Check the gel tests on the net and you will see how it works.

HST also looks good.

[toallmy]

My call would be , what ever you use in that gun to practice with if it works 100 percent of the time and you hit what your shooting at it will work . Just keep shooting till they stop being a threat . Then reload ,

[olafhardt]

If you put an extra hole in a human or critter their health is deminished. I like brass cased 115 fmj ammo. Steel cased ammo has given me some problems in some guns. What I am doing is looking for cheap 115 grain fmj ammo that my guns eat like popcorn. So far I still like my wheelguns.

[6bg6ga]

I'll probably shake the forum to its foundation with what I have to say. My local gun shop tells me ONLY to use defense ammunition because if the situation arrises and you have to shoot you won't be put on the chopping block for using defense ammunition and you would if you used handloads. It would seem that these defense lawyers will try to prove that you OVERLOADED the ammunition if it were handloads. Frankly I called ********. Personally I will have in my guns what I normally shoot simply because I can put everything in the 9 and 10 ring. In other words I have complete control and I don't have to worry about shooting thru my house into someone elses home. Where one round might have stopped someone two might be needed with handloads. My local gun shop thinks I'm crazy and if the situation landed me in front of a jury I would be sent up the river for using homemade ammunition. Look at the primers on defense rounds or simply factory ammunition. Notice how flat they are which means a LOT of pressure where as my home reloads don't show this. Am I wrong?

[mcdaniel.mac]

I'll probably shake the forum to its foundation with what I have to say. My local gun shop tells me ONLY to use defense ammunition because if the situation arrises and you have to shoot you won't be put on the chopping block for using defense ammunition and you would if you used handloads. It would seem that these defense lawyers will try to prove that you OVERLOADED the ammunition if it were handloads. Frankly I called ********. Personally I will have in my guns what I normally shoot simply because I can put everything in the 9 and 10 ring. In other words I have complete control and I don't have to worry about shooting thru my house into someone elses home. Where one round might have stopped someone two might be needed with handloads. My local gun shop thinks I'm crazy and if the situation landed me in front of a jury I would be sent up the river for using homemade ammunition. Look at the primers on defense rounds or simply factory ammunition. Notice how flat they are which means a LOT of pressure where as my home reloads don't show this. Am I wrong?
I've had this discussion, and there's two or three cases that Ayoob always points to and Ayoob readers point to. One, a guy had essentially cowboy loads in a revolver, his wife shot herself but it looked very much like possible murder, and the low powder loads complicated the ballistics by providing very little GSR.

The other that comes up is the case of Harold Fish, because the prosecutor brought up the use of his 10mm Glock. What people should take from the Fish case is not to fire a "warning shot" like he did. Besides that, there's a bunch of other stuff that was brought up, inconsistencies in his story, dogs that were not known to be aggressive, timeline issues, etc. He didn't handload, nor did the 10mm alone make or break his case.

IMO, if you're going to hand load, don't get creative with what you load, first off, and make sure you have a load book showing what you load.

I wouldn't just use anything either. Short barrels mean less velocity, which can mean a failure to perform. Better than nothing, but then you might as well have carried a .32ACP with lead solids, you know? ShootingTheBull410 did a series of reviews of ammo in gel from short barrels in several calibers, very well put together. A number of the standard duty loads didn't expand out of a sub-3" barrel.

I would not use FMJ. Expanding ammo cuts down on the risk of a shoot-through, whereas 9mm ball will zip right on through.

[Murphy]

Can anyone provide me with a link to a criminal murder case where anyone was convicted and sent to prison for using a hand load in a justifiable self defense case?

Thanks,

Murphy

[6bg6ga]

First of all I don't believe there is anyone here that gets creative with loading or whatever this means. Most of my loads are a product of a reloading manual. Anyone with experience loading knows you don't just throw something together and call it good. I have experimented however with my 9mm and have used a 160gr rn lead bullet with about 3.2gr of unique. The result is a nice accurate load that hits where pointed and hits with authority. Pressure signs however are not there so the load can be increased and no its not in the books but rather a product of 50 years plus of reloading. Simply put I carry lead in all my guns unless I feel a need to run some very heavy or fast loads in which case I will go with either plated or jacketed bullets but not for defense. The primer is in my opinion the first indicator of pressure in any round/case. Primer starts to flatten then there are pressure issues and caution must be used.

[tygar]

There are a number of reasons to use "factory" ammo, not the least of which, is one less issue for the prosecutor.

Also, each platform will always find a couple that are definitively better than the others. Each gun is different, likes different ammo, & shoots it to different points of impact.

Yes, they are all made basically the same, with m/l the same components - but - they react differently in each gun & I want the one that "reacts" the best in that particular gun.

All that is less important than putting 2 center chest & 1 in the head. Renders all issues moot.

[jmort]

"please explain?"

In the history of the United States, from its founding to the present, there has never been a single case when someone have been convicted of a crime for using "hand-loads/reloads" in self-defense. Ayboob and his acolytes, rely primarily on a case involving a man who murdered his girlfriend. He claimed she committed suicide. The trial judge refused, wrongly in my opinion, to admit expert witness evidence related to his hand-loaded ammunition. The court reasoned that factory ammunition gun-powder residue patterns would be repeatable and the killer's handloads, no so much, so as to not constitute reliable evidence. Now, a real case of self-defense involving the late Harold Fish stands for the proposition that one should not use factory 10mm ammunition as it is "too powerful" and one should not take tactical firearms training courses, and have "lots of guns and ammunition." The trial court allowed all this evidence in, and along with the other evidence and Mr. Fish was convicted in an alleged self-defense shooting. Thank God an appellate court reversed the conviction, and remanded the case for a new trial but it is a most unfortunate case. The Aboobites ignore State v Fish as it stands for the proposition that you should not use a 10mm for self defense, get tactical firearms training, and have a lot of guns and ammo. He used factory ammunition, but that was not an issue at trial. I do agree with the proposition that if one is determined to use factory ammunition use exactly the same ammunition that the local LEOs use and change when they change. The point is that no one, ever, in the history of the United States has been convicted of a crime for using handloads in self defense. I like big slow bullets, with big meplats, that do not violate the Hague Convention.

[Texantothecore]

Some attorneys on this board did a good amount of research and found that there were no cases in which someone was convicted because of handloads. None.
One case had a prosecutor bring up the subject for about thirty seconds and then went to another subject.

SAAMI specs severely limit the production of super duper magic rounds.
If there were any magic rounds they would be on the market.
Handgun rounds are weak rounds compared to rifle and shotgun both which are legal for defense.

Juries are uniform in their opinion that you shoot what is in your gun.

The idea that you should not use handloads is nonsense.

Ayoob is good in many areas of shooting but his main job is to sell more handguns and more factory ammo and he is very, very good at that.

The most impotant attributes of a round are:
It can be consistently placed by the defender
It will stop inside the perp and not exit to injure innocent bystanders.

I shoot pure lead in my .45 Colt. Semi-wadcutters that have good expansion and will not exit.

The "Handbook of Ballistics" lists wadcutters above hps as having the highest level of energy transfer to the perp.

[Ed K]

If one loads the actual CCW with the boutique ammo but to qualify the ammo one matches bullet (e.g. Gold Dot), OAL and velocity via a book load, is there really any need to shoot a bunch of factory ammo to verify function in the firearm? I would think not. Seems the cheapest way out for a handloader that carries.

[Texantothecore]

The case Ayoob worked on showed no powder burns or residue on her skin. Ayoob determined that 21 inches was the point at which there would be no powder evidence. The guy was convicted. Rightly so.

[nagantguy]

I speak of using law enforcement ammo for your local PD I your carry gun to aid in the reasonable man defense, I. MI when carrying and using your weapon in self defense you must be innocent of any crime, I. a 0lace where you can legally be, not have acted before hand with malic, picture it this way ; the a prococutor or some scumbags civil attorney says Mr. smith, why did you shoot Mr brown 3 times on July 5th? well I was walking to my car after work, third shift, and I saw a guy come out of the shadows, it startled me I took two.steps back away from him, he demand I give him money, I said no get back, he came twards me I yelled get away from me I have a gun, he brandished a knife, or what I thought was a knife turned out to be a screw driver. I derwent my weapon and pointed it at hi and he lunged towards me, and I feared for my life , the threat didn't stop until the third shot. But Mr Smith the ammunition in your weapon was jacketed hollow points, they caused grievous damage to Mr Browns body, hollow point ammunition is so damaging to human flesh that it's banned in warfare by the Hauge convention. Yes sir that may be true but it's the same ammo the is issued to my sheriffs department because of reliability, effectiveness and it's less likely to over penatrate .

I do not think did not state nor believe that hand loaded ammo is better worse, illegal, more deadly, a good idea or bad, just that going with common police ammo is one idea that could benifit you and believe it or not many departments use ammo that works very well, and yes whatever you use try it extensively in your carry gun, the weapon may hate it. most defensive type ammo these days is good stuff that feeds well across a wide range of weapon systems.
and again function is number one, accuracy is number two, 8.5 ×11 at 21 feet to arm length distance is not hard to achive.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Personally I carry revolvers and I prefer Speer Gold Dot ammo for my various revolver calibers. I do own a Glock 19 and 26 (both 9mms). I to was overwhelmed by the choices and prices of SD ammo and couldn't afford to run enough ammo through my 9s to insure confidence or reliability. In the end I bought the bulk Winchester white box hollow point ammo. Winchesters ammo functions reliably and I was able to run about 300rds per gun without breaking the bank.

[nagantguy]

I speak of using law enforcement ammo for your local PD I your carry gun to aid in the reasonable man defense, I. MI when carrying and using your weapon in self defense you must be innocent of any crime, I. a 0lace where you can legally be, not have acted before hand with malic, picture it this way ; the a prococutor or some scumbags civil attorney says Mr. smith, why did you shoot Mr brown 3 times on July 5th? well I was walking to my car after work, third shift, and I saw a guy come out of the shadows, it startled me I took two.steps back away from him, he demand I give him money, I said no get back, he came twards me I yelled get away from me I have a gun, he brandished a knife, or what I thought was a knife turned out to be a screw driver. I derwent my weapon and pointed it at hi and he lunged towards me, and I feared for my life , the threat didn't stop until the third shot. But Mr Smith the ammunition in your weapon was jacketed hollow points, they caused grievous damage to Mr Browns body, hollow point ammunition is so damaging to human flesh that it's banned in warfare by the Hauge convention. Yes sir that may be true but it's the same ammo the is issued to my sheriffs department because of reliability, effectiveness and it's less likely to over penatrate .

I do not think did not state nor believe that hand loaded ammo is better worse, illegal, more deadly, a good idea or bad, just that going with common police ammo is one idea that could benifit you and believe it or not many departments use ammo that works very well, and yes whatever you use try it extensively in your carry gun, the weapon may hate it. most defensive type ammo these days is good stuff that feeds well across a wide range of weapon systems.
and again function is number one, accuracy is number two, 8.5 ×11 at 21 feet to arm length distance is not hard to achive.

[LabGuy]

I’mnot for or against the use of hand loads for self defense, but I have switched from Hornady Critical Defense to Speer Gold Dot. I can purchase Gold Dot bullets, andduplicate the factory load. I canpractice with these cheaper rounds. Ihave also duplicated the load with Lyman 452374. I also like the 230 gr. better than the 185.

[nagantguy]

I’mnot for or against the use of hand loads for self defense, but I have switchedfrom Hornady Critical Defense to Speer Gold Dot. I can purchase Gold Dot bullets, andduplicate the factory load. I canpractice with these cheaper rounds. Ihave also duplicated the load with Lyman 452374. I also like the 230 gr. better than the 185.

i do the same, once I settled on gold dots bought lots of loaded ammo and bullets, can 100% duplicate factory performance with out going broke!

[flint45]

I still have some old Black Talons in 9mm and 45acp. The stories of dont use handloads are just that stories " urban legend" if you will.handloads with a huge meplat in .45 make big holes

[ole 5 hole group]

Large LE agencies put out bids for their requested type ammunition and whichever manufacture meeting those specs has the lowest price - that's the ammunition they shoot for that year or however long that order was for.

For self defense/hunting ammunition - IMO, the best on the market today is the bonded version (there are several available) and my personal choice is the Gold Dot, and I reload my own.

A word of caution on the bonded bullets - Remington puts out there Golden Saber, which is an excellent bonded bullet but they don't offer their bonded bullet as a reloading component. They offer the 230 grain BHJ and to some, they could think it meant bonded hollow point, when in fact it means BRASS hollow point, still an excellent bullet but it's not bonded.

[Tackleberry41]

I really doubt when it comes down to it, you will notice much difference in the brands of stuff sold for self defense. All the companies put some research into such things. Cant see where if you put a couple 9mm in a guy and the coroner would say, you should have used x brand as it would have killed him a little deader.

I keep Hornady in my S&W shield in my car. I use their XTP for reloading, its easy to find and would imagine kills people as good as anything else.

[kenyerian]

I think that practice is more important. Just use what cycles the best in your weapon of choice and practice. I live in the country and I like to shoot so I'm probably at it almost every day. Have fun and hope that you never need to defend yourself but be ready if you do.

[Earlwb]

I think that people tend to over analyze the information available and get caught up in the details. Really just about all of the ammo and bullet types will work and work pretty good. It is mainly practice shooting and being able to hit the target. You can have the ultimate best super whiz bang bullets in your cartridges and if you miss the target the bullets won't matter.

[montana_charlie]

It is mainly practice shooting and being able to hit the target. You can have the ultimate best super whiz bang bullets in your cartridges and if you miss the target the bullets won't matter.
I bought a (used) Taurus PT92 last fall, and have only had it out to shoot a few times.
But, I installed one of those Lasermax guide rod laser sights, and it reduces the amount of practice needed for decent shooting.

I've always been a fair pistol shot, but never a pistolero.
However, with the laser, I can almost simulate a (somewhat slower than average) trained 'instinct shooter'.
If (at twenty feet) I can keep the dot on the spot long enough to accomplish a good trigger squeeze, I can stay within an inch of the dot from a variety of positions.

I also settled on the Gold Dot bullets ... after seeing some ballistics gel videos on You Tube.

[rintinglen]

Lead Wad Cutter! All you need

amazingly good choice in a 9mm

[mjwcaster]

Montana charlie, how do you activate the guide rod laser on the P92?

The only one I have played with was on a glock, much cooler than I thought it would be, but I don't think I would count on activation during a stressful draw.

As far as ammo I am a federal HST type of guy.
Great test performance, used by many law enforcement agencies, and most importantly available at a decent price in 50 round boxes.

Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk

[kawasakifreak77]

Federal HST & done.

[Lead Fred]

My choice

http://www.lehighdefense.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-5XeqDtRao

I use the grown up 9mm

[W.R.Buchanan]

I did not read all of this thread and I'm sure there is all kinds of good advice here.

However the point I would make is that if you actually hit your intended target it will ruin his day no matter which ammo you use.

On an Auto Pistol, functionality is more important than absolute accuracy since you probably can't shoot the gun to it's mechanical accuracy potential anyway. In fact, and not to be a poop, but I am certain you can't.

Therefore finding good quality reliable ammo, most probably at Walmart, is going to do you more good than shooting $25 a box "Self Defense Ammo." I have always shot Winchester Bulk .40 S&W and .45ACP purchased from Walmart or my reloads using plated boolits and they would hurt just as bad as a screaming HP, if the guy lived to remember which was which.

I would recommend finding a decent shooting school and spending your money on that instead of endless searching for the "Best Ammo" for your gun.

Any pistol that will shoot inside of 6" at 25 yards is capable of decent defensive usage. You will need to practice a bunch to shoot better than that offhand from a holster.

The realities of pistol shooting are in the facts that trigger control and sight alignment are the two most important things as far as accuracy. However you first must develop your gun handling skills to the point of being rote. Only then will you be able to get the gun out of your holster and in action fast enough to be able to spend the necessary time to concentrate on your sight alignment and trigger control and be able to hit anything,,, before you get shot.

If you can't hit your target in around 2 seconds or less after going for your gun you probably will lose. In which case the type of ammo you were going to shoot will make little difference.

Randy

[Mica_Hiebert]

I am partial to gold dot as I work for Vista Outdoor. But it's what the fbi uses and has proven it's self to meet their expectations in penatration and expansion.

[ArrowJ]

I have been reading this (obviously) as well as posts and articles concerning the endless debate of using cast bullets for self defense. In a perfect world that would not be a debate, and I would use cast bullets because I can make them cheaper. I hear guys say that they buy "x" brand and then practice with cast rounds that have very similar POI, but I am not sure I have the skill to do that just yet. It would be great if my Lee round nose 125 grain bullets shot the same as factory, but somehow I doubt it. Also, I am not that great of shot anyway. I am definitely going for 8.5" x 11". Anyway, let us assume for the sake of avoiding the cast bullets for self defense debate that I had already decided I was willing to use cast bullets in my 9mm. How about this: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?306671-359-125-(9mm)-HP-Flat-base-4-cav-Brass-MP-Molds-re-run-May-2016-SPECIAL-OFFER

[Ed K]

Hard to see where cast bullet handloads would land anyone in the soup more so than factory ammo labeled "Black Talon".

[6bg6ga]

Quote:Hard to see where cast bullet handloads would land anyone in the soup more so than factory ammo labeled "Black Talon". The smart prosecutors seem to think that handloads can be over loaded to the point of making something capable of taking down an elephant without blowing up the gun. Stupidity at its finest.

[montana_charlie]

Montana charlie, how do you activate the guide rod laser on the P92?
The sight kit includes a replacement for the take down pin.
The new pin has an internal sliding pin that turns the laser off when it is centered.
Pushing left or right ... by the trigger finger, or any other digit ... turns it on.

If you use a two-handed hold, it is pretty easy to activate the laser with the 'off' hand.

[izzyjoe]

Arkansas doesn't allow handloads for CCW, you must use factory ammo. Now I think this is a big load of poo, lawyers are going to find a way to put you in the wrong, and the thought of using handloads to inflict for damage to the victim is just another card in there deck. It's best to cover yourself, I use Rem golden sabers, cause I've actually seen them in action. The local SD has to put down roadkill deer sometimes, and many times the ones that know me call to come get the deer, so I'm well stocked in deer meat! But I've found several bullet perfectly mushroomed, with a lot of damage to the ribs,and lungs, so that sold me on the golden sabers. I have actually called the officers back in a few days and give the bullets back to them, and they were shocked to see how the bullet performed.

[Beerd]

............ smart prosecutors ............. Stupidity at its finest.
You're being redundant.
..

[Oyeboten]

amazingly good choice in a 9mm


"IDEAL" long ago did offer a Mold for a very interesting 120 Grain Wadcutter meant fot the 9 mm Luger Pistols, which was basically a sort central blunted spire point on a flat shelf of what otherwise was likely the shortish version of the usual flat front flat base 115 Grain or so Wadcutter design ( if in .356 of course )...just enough of a central spire thing on the front, to be accepted by the Feed Ramp.

I imagine it would function just as nicely or even nicer than most of the dedicated "SD" Bullets of today, especially if around 1000 FPS or more...or in any usual clime anyway.

Siberian Winters or their likes, it might mushroom out on the nine layers of heavy Clothing though, but then, nothing else really works very well under those conditions anyway, conventional Hand Gun wise, unless very small diameter and Hard Ball and 'fast' FPS.

I know my early Colt .38 Automatics did fine with .357 148 Grain Semi Wadcutters for light Target Loads to fifty yards...but I back then, I had not yet thought of modifying a mold ro emulate the "IDEAL" Eacuter design for the Luger Pistols, or I would have gone with that.

I hope to modify a 120 Grain flat front Wadcuter Mold to reproduce the old 'IDEAL' P '08 9mm Wadcutter by my adding that central 'spire' thing to the front, even if I maybe do it in .357 or .358 for using a .38 Special Mold...in pure Lead, none of my 9mms or .38 Automatics or 9mm Largos are going to care if it is a couple thousandths over size, and, it should still chamber just fine diameter wise...and if not, I can size them so they will.

This would make for a wonderful Paper Target round, and likely would do just dandy for 'self Defence' if need be.

[9.3X62AL]

I've said what follows on this site several times, here goes. I am a retired law officer, and spent a significant portion of my career as a homicide investigator. I have worked several dozen such cases at varying roles, from case agent to scene processing and all steps in between. I have attended many prosecutor "staffings" at which case facts, findings, and conclusions are shared and a decision made about prosecution. AT NO TIME--IN ANY CASE THAT I WORKED--did the subject of "Handload vs. factory load" ever come up. Ever. It is superfluous. Any reference to such a "problem" is bullsquat. Don't get me started on that reserve captain at Nashua NH PD that publishes gunrag tripe like it is Sermon On The Mount.

[rintinglen]

I have been reading this (obviously) as well as posts and articles concerning the endless debate of using cast bullets for self defense. In a perfect world that would not be a debate, and I would use cast bullets because I can make them cheaper. I hear guys say that they buy "x" brand and then practice with cast rounds that have very similar POI, but I am not sure I have the skill to do that just yet. It would be great if my Lee round nose 125 grain bullets shot the same as factory, but somehow I doubt it. Also, I am not that great of shot anyway. I am definitely going for 8.5" x 11". Anyway, let us assume for the sake of avoiding the cast bullets for self defense debate that I had already decided I was willing to use cast bullets in my 9mm. How about this: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?306671-359-125-(9mm)-HP-Flat-base-4-cav-Brass-MP-Molds-re-run-May-2016-SPECIAL-OFFER

I have 6 or seven MP HP molds, ranging from a 71 grain 32 HP up to a 45 H&G 68 with stops at 9mm, 38 357 and 44 along the way. I earnestly endorse their use and recommend them.

This mold will make boolits that will keep you shooting the next time the supply line goes empty. IME, I can cast 10 HP Cramer Style boolits from MP molds in the same time that I can cast 12 Identical but not HP boolits from a standard MP mold. (H&G 68 45 acp boolits were the ones I tested.) I can approach 600 boolits an hour, once up to temp.

There are a few tricks to using them--they need heat and lots of it-to release boolits and to fill out the hp. You must pre-heat the mold to have success and they may take two or three casting sessions to break in. They are heavy and if you are well into your middle earlies that may be an issue. They are costly. But they are the finest HP molds made. NOE also makes hp molds and they are a little cheaper and much more readily available. I have some of those as well.

[Mytmousemalibu]

For what it's worth, I carry an M&P 9C, very close to the XD Mod2 size. I have mine loaded with the new Lehigh Defense 9mm+P 90gr copper solid, Extreme Defense. Not just because it is the latest whizz-bang on the scene but from the testing I have seen, it seems to perform very well and has some advantages over traditional hollow points. It reliably penetrates a myriad of different barriers with very little effect to it's terminal performance and overall penetration. Because it is a non-expanding copper solid, it can't clog with debris and fail to open/function. It is fairly resistant to deformation through tough barriers that might severely hamper a JHP. It has a lot of pluses to its design and construction at the cost of price. They aren't cheap. On the plus side, you can buy the them as a component and load some yourself for practice.

My alternative choices: Without a shadow of a doubt, for a traditional defensive hollow point, Federal HST's. In many, many tests from various people, the HST proves to be the most consistent performer overall with performance meeting FBI testing criteria.

I also still like the old school Federal 9BPLE. It has been around for a long time and has a street proven track record of turning bad guys into worm food. It is getting harder to find but it is available, it's pretty cheap, about $20 for a box of 50rds (remember most defensive ammo is in 20rd boxes). It is an old design and it doesn't perform as best as we wished in ballistic tests. It is a 115gr Hi-Shok at +P+ and very high velocity. Keep that in mind as most guns might be rated to +P but not +P+ as their is no SAAMI spec for +P+. An old school round that is well proven to do the job and it's cheap.

The Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger T-series, and the Winchester Defend bullets from their Train & Defend line are good ones too.

[6bg6ga]

I've said what follows on this site several times, here goes. I am a retired law officer, and spent a significant portion of my career as a homicide investigator. I have worked several dozen such cases at varying roles, from case agent to scene processing and all steps in between. I have attended many prosecutor "staffings" at which case facts, findings, and conclusions are shared and a decision made about prosecution. AT NO TIME--IN ANY CASE THAT I WORKED--did the subject of "Handload vs. factory load" ever come up. Ever. It is superfluous. Any reference to such a "problem" is bullsquat. Don't get me started on that reserve captain at Nashua NH PD that publishes gunrag tripe like it is Sermon On The Mount.Well your state is california and mine is Iowa. The prosecuters here have nothing better to do than question the topic of handloading vers factory loads which I have mentioned several times before. I have sat in the back of a court room analyzing the either lack of a sound system or the inadequate operation of their sound system in hopes of either repairing what they have or getting them fixed up with sonething that works well for them. The prosecuters here seem to think they can hang the shooter who used his gun in self defense on the factory vers handload theme and in some cases the Jury seems t go for it. As I believe I mentioned I personally will not carry the "Defense type" ammunition. The gun shops here push the defense ammunition hard telling everyone you don't want to get caught with handloads i your gun if you have to use it. So please don't come off with the retired law officer know it all type posts because your experience is not representative of all states.

[OS OK]

175408175409

You said that you roll your own...just adjust your lead a bit softer, do some load work-ups and tests and you will get better results than buying all that expensive self defense hype that has to go sonic to expand. This is what handloading is all about...custom ammo period...well, unless you are just an assembler, there is a difference.
I want a boolit that is going to most likely stay in the perp, not go somewhere only God knows and injure someone else.
Hit them hard, more than once, hit them where you intend to...don't stop until the threat is docile and dead.

No, these were not .45 ACP loaded to the gills...863 FPS, 238 grains Powder Coated, 4.8 g. of 700-X and fired primers have big round edges...low pressure.
Sorta like stopping a slow freight train. Use any HP profile you like and feeds reliably in your platform...you have all the controls at hand. I can't think of a better solution for these short barreled 9's.

Here's how to do it...Casting Hollow Points...Best Pic's...Your Success Tips...? (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?314670-Casting-Hollow-Points-Best-Pic-s-Your-Success-Tips)

[Edward]

I cast for rifle because I think I have control over BHN /velocity and get better results according to (my needs) unlike factory built used by the general ,occasional shooter ,my carry loads are no different and I can afford to shoot often . Factory rounds tend not to get used very often in my guns .

[nannyhammer]

"Arkansas doesn't allow handloads for CCW, you must use factory ammo." Never heard that one before...do you have a source? I only carry Gold Dots in the 40 (165gr) and 9mm (124 +P). Always feed and shoot well in everything I've tried them in.

[35remington]

I will note nobody has been convicted in a self defense shooting such that handloads were the thing that got them jailed. It simply has not been a factor.

That's true no matter where you hail from.

Thus skepticism as to whether handloads are an issue is well founded.

[9.3X62AL]

Well your state is california and mine is Iowa. The prosecuters here have nothing better to do than question the topic of handloading vers factory loads which I have mentioned several times before. I have sat in the back of a court room analyzing the either lack of a sound system or the inadequate operation of their sound system in hopes of either repairing what they have or getting them fixed up with sonething that works well for them. The prosecuters here seem to think they can hang the shooter who used his gun in self defense on the factory vers handload theme and in some cases the Jury seems t go for it. As I believe I mentioned I personally will not carry the "Defense type" ammunition. The gun shops here push the defense ammunition hard telling everyone you don't want to get caught with handloads i your gun if you have to use it. So please don't come off with the retired law officer know it all type posts because your experience is not representative of all states.

You sound like you stayed at Howard Johnson's last night. In any event, You're welcome.

[JimB..]

I've taken to carrying three magazines, one loaded with just barely lethal rounds, one with often lethal rounds and one with stop the drug crazed lunatic lethal rounds. By doing so I ensure that I am always prepared to apply exactly the right amount of lethal force in any situation where lethal force is appropriate.

[6bg6ga]

Why not just carry a Barret 50 and be done. Just kidding... I think all states should arrive at a decision and abide by it. Nothing wrong with handloads or factory standard ammunition in my opinion. I personally don't see a need for the "MAN STOPPERS" simple because I have seen people of little experience purchasing them and trying to practice with them. It does no good to miss a target because of +P+ loadings as it does't stop the threat. Better to shoot a lower power round and put it on target.

[509thsfs]

Best I've seen of recovered bullets from our local coroner in .45 acp was Winchester Ranger and Federal HST. Could of used pics of those slugs for advertisements. I'm in the process of switching to the Federals in my .45 and 9mm's based on what I have seen

[OS OK]

I can just imagine a commercial of the local coroner leaning over a bloody body holding a nice mushroom between his thumb and finger...saying..."If you wanna stop one of these perps and send him here...use one of these 'Brand-X' slugs!"

[B. Lumpkin]

I like Gold Dots. They have been answering your very question for quite awhile. I buy the loaded ammo in 50 rd boxes.

[Walkingwolf]

Why not just carry a Barret 50 and be done. Just kidding... I think all states should arrive at a decision and abide by it. Nothing wrong with handloads or factory standard ammunition in my opinion. I personally don't see a need for the "MAN STOPPERS" simple because I have seen people of little experience purchasing them and trying to practice with them. It does no good to miss a target because of +P+ loadings as it does't stop the threat. Better to shoot a lower power round and put it on target.

^+1 much of the ammo hype is hype. Bullet placement, and penetration are key. A 22 short to the brain is a lot more effective than a 500 magnum that goes who knows where except the threat.

[509thsfs]

True. I had to attend a triple autopsy (3 members of family killed) to take the recovered slugs to run them straight to the crime lab. Single .22 round to each head. Still would not be my 1st choice though. But also seen guys take .45 slugs to the chest and live. One did take a .45 to the *** and we recovered the slug, perfectly mushroomed imbedded in a wad of cash in his front pocket. And no, it wasn't his rent money. He did hit the cop in the shoulder with a .32 SW LRN that pissed the cop off. I was able to give the cop the slug when all was done and over for a souvenir. All in the shot placement, and a good performing slug helps too.

[Moonie]

I have an XD Subcompact Mod.2 in 40 however I also have a 9mm barrel and usually use the 9mm barrel when carrying it. I use Gold Dot 147gr loads however I also have HST 147gr loads and would use either. I also carry those loads in a Sig 938. The 147gr loads have lower recoil for faster recovery and they have performance equal to the snappier loads. I would also recommend the Winchester Train & Defend 147's however I can't find any of the Defend version in stock. I have shot the Train version and it does well in both pistols.

[crowbuster]

critical defence. gold dots. my own p.c. coated boolits. All have had their turn. probably not much help to the o.p. Have hornadys in the wifes 38 for her carry gun.

[PoisonIvyMagnet]

Our local officers were buying themselves Remington Golden Sabers for personal use while I was picking up my XDs two years ago. It was what I already carried, and made me feel a bit better since it was their choice as well. It is too bad you can't buy the bullets to load your own. Buying them for occasional practice gets expensive, but still worth doing.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk

[9.3X62AL]

Magnet, if I may be so bold as to post again in this thread (because obviously 28 years of career experience/11 of which involved's robbery/homicide investigation with concurrent rangemaster role for 23 years) are utterly without value in some quarters.......my old shop's current issue ammo in 3 primary calibers is Winchester White Box JHP AKA "USA" branding--9mm x 147 grain, 40 S&W x 180 grain, and 45 ACP x 230 grain. These bullets are likely the old Ranger SXT branding, which itself was the evil Black Talon minus the black paint job and dewclaws. I have seen no examples of the 9mm bullet recovered at autopsy or hospital, because very few of our personnel carry 9mm pistols. I have seen several dozen of the 40 S&W and 45 ACP bullets upon recovery, and 95% of them could serve as ad copy for W-W ammo. I very much like--trust--and carry these WWB JHPs in my 40 S&W and 45 ACP sideiron/holsterplastic. Reasonably priced, reasonably available, and demonstrably effective IME. Folks could do worse than to buy a box or two of these loads For That Day, God forbid. 9mm? My choice is Speer Gold Dot 125 grain +P. The 9mm becomes viable when loaded to its full ballistic potential and given a controlled-expansion bullet. This Speer load is essentially the Armed Forces' M-882 9mm round upgraded with a bullet that might expand.

I do not believe in "magic bullets". Placement is key--load discussions like these are fine as far as they go, but remind me of medieval arguments about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. When 91% of your shots fired defensively DO NOT impact the intended target in the first place, load selection arguments are almost moot. All sorts of comment about the arrow, but little gets said about the Indian. My conclusions have always been to select good carry ammo, then use your hobby interest in ammo crafting to construct duplicate loads of your carry ammo that emulate your war shots' performance (velocity & downrange distribution). It ain't rocket science.

[yammerschooner]

Well your state is california and mine is Iowa. The prosecuters here have nothing better to do than question the topic of handloading vers factory loads which I have mentioned several times before. I have sat in the back of a court room analyzing the either lack of a sound system or the inadequate operation of their sound system in hopes of either repairing what they have or getting them fixed up with sonething that works well for them. The prosecuters here seem to think they can hang the shooter who used his gun in self defense on the factory vers handload theme and in some cases the Jury seems t go for it. As I believe I mentioned I personally will not carry the "Defense type" ammunition. The gun shops here push the defense ammunition hard telling everyone you don't want to get caught with handloads i your gun if you have to use it. So please don't come off with the retired law officer know it all type posts because your experience is not representative of all states.

Interesting. I would like to hear more as I was not aware of this. Of which County Attorney or Attorneys do you speak? If you could give me some cases I could inquire about I would be even more grateful.

Thanks in advance!

[Earlwb]

Handloads versus factory ammunition. I think it depends on the locale you live in, the political aspirations of the prosecutors or defense attorneys too and the laws in the state, etc. States or areas that are much more liberal or leftist leaning would tend to try to use handloaded ammunition against the person they are prosecuting. I was remembering a case years ago when hollow point bullets were coming out where someone loaded up some hollow point ammo for self defense purposes. The self defense shooting case was iffy to some extent. But the prosecutor was using the hollow point bullets against the person. The idea was to sway or influence the jury against the person.

California now bans hollow point bullets and New Jersey has banned hollow point bullets for a while now. I think some other states may be banning them too. New Jersey prosecutors do use the HP's against a person who used them in a shooting event too.

It is sort of frustrating in trying to get a google search to come up with examples. It seems everyone is reporting on it but not quoting examples of court cases for it.

reference http://www.secondcalldefense.org/firearm-attacked-court

in CA they banned hollow point bullets, so a prosecutor can easily use it against you in a court then.
http://controversialtimes.com/issues/constitutional-rights/breaking-supreme-court-allows-hollow-point-ammunition-to-be-banned/

http://www.ammoland.com/2011/04/are-hollow-point-bullets-illegal-for-personal-defense/#axzz4IuGBpIj4

http://www.gundigest.com/gun-blogs/books/handloads-not-a-good-idea-for-concealed-carry

[35remington]

Still hasn't happened or been a factor in a conviction in a self defense shooting.

Still.

"Bloodthirsty handloader" is more an Internet fabrication than a real event.

[9.3X62AL]

Earl--The State of California has not "banned" the sale of hollow-point ammunition. The law your source cites is a City/County of San Francisco ordinance. SFO is a microscopic and perverse 46.9 sq. mi. portion of a State encompassing 163,696 sq. mi.

[robertbank]

Al good information as always. I suspect you know the chances of me requiring to defend my life with a gun where I live are about the same as winning the Canadian Lottery 3 times on consecutive Wednesdays. That said, I do buy Lotto tickets.

I have a 226 Mke 25 by my bedside loaded with the 147 gr Win HP the RCMP carry, mostly because they are not dumb folks and I have a friend in the force who left me a box or two. Linda gets the Model 10 loaded with the 358477 HP cast soft when I am away. She cannot quickly pull the slide back on the 226 so the revolver is the better option. I work on the idea that if you can't hit with it, the ammo choice is moot.

Up here it is either a justifiable shoot and you are free or it isn't and you don't. We do have the Castle Principle up here which is solid after 1,000 years of case Law from England. I suspect your courts would be the same. Outside of your own residence the BG better be armed or your life clearly must have been in peril to justify lethal force.

Take Care

Bob

[Walkingwolf]

I can just imagine a commercial of the local coroner leaning over a bloody body holding a nice mushroom between his thumb and finger...saying..."If you wanna stop one of these perps and send him here...use one of these 'Brand-X' slugs!"

If a coroner is removing any type of bullet, it is a testament for that bullet. Even a 22 short...

[CraigOK]

I use:

Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Ammunition 9mm Luger +P 124 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point

because they expand as they should and you can get them in 50 round boxes and per round its significantly cheaper than buying the small boxes of other brands.

[jonp]

Magnet, if I may be so bold as to post again in this thread (because obviously 28 years of career experience/11 of which involved's robbery/homicide investigation with concurrent rangemaster role for 23 years) are utterly without value in some quarters.......my old shop's current issue ammo in 3 primary calibers is Winchester White Box JHP AKA "USA" branding--9mm x 147 grain, 40 S&W x 180 grain, and 45 ACP x 230 grain. These bullets are likely the old Ranger SXT branding, which itself was the evil Black Talon minus the black paint job and dewclaws. I have seen no examples of the 9mm bullet recovered at autopsy or hospital, because very few of our personnel carry 9mm pistols. I have seen several dozen of the 40 S&W and 45 ACP bullets upon recovery, and 95% of them could serve as ad copy for W-W ammo. I very much like--trust--and carry these WWB JHPs in my 40 S&W and 45 ACP sideiron/holsterplastic. Reasonably priced, reasonably available, and demonstrably effective IME. Folks could do worse than to buy a box or two of these loads For That Day, God forbid. 9mm? My choice is Speer Gold Dot 125 grain +P. The 9mm becomes viable when loaded to its full ballistic potential and given a controlled-expansion bullet. This Speer load is essentially the Armed Forces' M-882 9mm round upgraded with a bullet that might expand.

I do not believe in "magic bullets". Placement is key--load discussions like these are fine as far as they go, but remind me of medieval arguments about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. When 91% of your shots fired defensively DO NOT impact the intended target in the first place, load selection arguments are almost moot. All sorts of comment about the arrow, but little gets said about the Indian. My conclusions have always been to select good carry ammo, then use your hobby interest in ammo crafting to construct duplicate loads of your carry ammo that emulate your war shots' performance (velocity & downrange distribution). It ain't rocket science.

Good advice and very interesting. Seems all that special high priced super double secret probation self defense ammo might not be needed after all. I do have one quibble and a very minor one.

"When 91% of your shots fired defensively DO NOT impact the intended target in the first place, load selection arguments are almost moot."

I would think that is an argument not for any load selection but if that few actually do reach the intended target it is an argument for the ammo that does make it to be the best you can get.

[jonp]

175408175409

You said that you roll your own...just adjust your lead a bit softer, do some load work-ups and tests and you will get better results than buying all that expensive self defense hype that has to go sonic to expand. This is what handloading is all about...custom ammo period...well, unless you are just an assembler, there is a difference.
I want a boolit that is going to most likely stay in the perp, not go somewhere only God knows and injure someone else.
Hit them hard, more than once, hit them where you intend to...don't stop until the threat is docile and dead.

No, these were not .45 ACP loaded to the gills...863 FPS, 238 grains Powder Coated, 4.8 g. of 700-X and fired primers have big round edges...low pressure.
Sorta like stopping a slow freight train. Use any HP profile you like and feeds reliably in your platform...you have all the controls at hand. I can't think of a better solution for these short barreled 9's.

Here's how to do it...Casting Hollow Points...Best Pic's...Your Success Tips...? (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?314670-Casting-Hollow-Points-Best-Pic-s-Your-Success-Tips)

you don't say what alloy your using.

[9.3X62AL]

Good advice and very interesting. Seems all that special high priced super double secret probation self defense ammo might not be needed after all. I do have one quibble and a very minor one.

"When 91% of your shots fired defensively DO NOT impact the intended target in the first place, load selection arguments are almost moot."

I would think that is an argument not for any load selection but if that few actually do reach the intended target it is an argument for the ammo that does make it to be the best you can get.

That is an equally valid assertion, sir. We return to a complex dichotomy--and I don't mean to emphasize philosophical grounding here. Is it better to score hits with weaker loads than to create misses with more heavy loadings? THAT is FBI's rationale for advocating the 9mm/147 grain JHP to LE orgs. Those uber-hyped bullets need to hit something to "do their magic"--misses just endanger uninvolved lives and property. The 91% miss rating is my shop's (and virtually all other LE orgs') hit percentage, which is abysmal. It is not real charitable to criticize the misses by either LEOs or citizen self-defenders for performances under extreme duress--reasonable fear for loss of life--we still need to strive for the best targeting possible as a matter of good conscience. Once we have a better handle on defensive accuracy, then perhaps it becomes time to discuss bullet construction.

[OS OK]

jonp...I used straight SOWW's (stick on wheel weights) with nothing else added, not even Sn. Believe it or not...they cast beautifully...'fill-out supremious!'.
The BHN was 7.4 on the same day I casted...doesn't mean anything too much, as they harden as time passes up to a couple of weeks.
I'm building a tank that I can water test these HP's in and have a better knowledge of them over 'hardening time'...will be a while till I post on that as I just got a tank to use today. It needs some good ole home grown, shade tree engineering just yet.

[OS OK]

Hey...fellas, don't get all wound around the axle here...my premise is that we use a 'homegrown' HP that is more likely than not, to penetrate the perp and stay within same... and, not travel on do damage elsewhere. 'Slow heavy freight trains'.
Shot placement depends entirely on how practiced and how 'cool' you are able to react under the pressure of death. "Under the pressure of death."
We all react differently whether we appraise ourselves as 'Rambo' or not. Should you be successful in the encounter...my question is this..."did the round pass through the perp and potentially endanger another, or did it stay in the perp?" High velocity factory rounds, I think, will continue on to make you liable downrange.

That's all I'm trying to address here...charlie

[Markbo]

I saw a picture recently...I think on Facebook. It was of about 20 recovered bullets - all HPs, a LOT of which had obviously failed miserably. 3 of the bullets stood out. Federal Hydra-Shok. They all 3 were shot through different thicknesses of clothing and were absolutely perfect. No note of the weight though. Along with the SXT and Speer gold dots these are on my short list to accuracy test in my new Ruger lightweight commander 9mm.

Just an FWIW I have not had good results with Hornady TAP ammo in 3 different calibers.

[tdoyka]

reliable and consistent. 250gr mihek hollow point and a skeeter load in my ruger super blackhawk(4 5/8" barrel) in 44 sp.

[9.3X62AL]

tdoyka--I like the "Skeeter Load" in 44 Special as felon repellent--very much. Its cousin the lead-bullet 41 Magnum loading is close--a 210 grain SWC at 900-950 FPS. For the 40 S&W and 45 ACP I use the 180 and 230 grain bullets in the WWB JHP, and these clock similar velocities of ~950 and 900 FPS respectively. Once you get a bullet of about .200+ sectional density and .40" diameter moving at 900 or more feet per second, reliable performance with decent hits takes place most of the time.

[dubber123]

Hey...fellas, don't get all wound around the axle here...my premise is that we use a 'homegrown' HP that is more likely than not, to penetrate the perp and stay within same... and, not travel on do damage elsewhere. 'Slow heavy freight trains'.
Shot placement depends entirely on how practiced and how 'cool' you are able to react under the pressure of death. "Under the pressure of death."
We all react differently whether we appraise ourselves as 'Rambo' or not. Should you be successful in the encounter...my question is this..."did the round pass through the perp and potentially endanger another, or did it stay in the perp?" High velocity factory rounds, I think, will continue on to make you liable downrange.

That's all I'm trying to address here...charlie


Something that might surprise you is slower rounds often penetrate more, not less due to the smaller frontal area the slower rounds often have due to reduced expansion.

If they both expand the same, I agree the faster ones should penetrate more, but I have had a hard time getting HP's to expand reliably below a certain speed.