Alaska Outfitter Defends Fishermen from Raging Grizzly with 9mm Pistol

[huntersdog]

I have been guiding brown bear (https://www.americanhunter.org/game/big-game/) hunters and fishermen and bear photographers from our homestead within Becharof National Wildlife Refuge (https://www.fws.gov/refuge/becharof/) in Alaska for 33 years (http://www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com) and have had numerous close encounters with bears. Until now, I have never had to shoot an unwounded bear to protect either myself or clients, but the other week an event occurred and my good fortune changed. When it happened, I was fully aware of what was going on and how big the bear was. I also managed to stay aware of where my clients were, even when the bear was directly between us. The woman I was guiding said that while she did not remember smelling the bear’s breath, it was close enough to her face that it could have bitten her!

I have killed enough bears to know how important shot placement can be, even with large-bore rifles. I was well aware of the limitations of my 9mm pistol, even with Buffalo Bore ammo (https://www.buffalobore.com/). I was aiming for a vital area with each shot; because it all took place between 6 and 8 feet, they were not far off. But hitting the head and brain of a highly animated and agitated animal is a difficult shot.

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https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2016/8/10/alaska-outfitter-defends-fishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/

[RPRNY]

Much discussed. Experienced, respected guide making much of what should have been acknowledged as a very fortunate and unlikely outcome given the very poor choice of cartridge for the job.

[35remington]

It worked, but wonder why not something else.

[35remington]

Apparently an experienced bear guide values repeat fire and penetration above all else. Based on this single example it's hard to prove it was a "very poor" choice, as that label would have applied better if somebody other than the bear died.

[Hickory]

To my thinking, a 9mm is marginal for humans, for a grizzly it would be on par with a flyswatter or pocket knife. (I guess anything is better than nothing.)
Good shoot'n.

[762 shooter]

A steady hand and a clear sense of purpose will prove most theories wrong, especially when it comes to stopping a threat.

762

[35remington]

Griz apparently thought it was something other than a flyswatter and died anyway.

[jmort]

The magic meplat. You would think that the members here would get it. When your ammunition will shoot through a 900 pound bear on a broadside and will penetrate a bear skull then you have enough gun. He stated the experience has led him to carry his .44 mag in the future.

[Bzcraig]

The magic meplat. You would think that the members here would get it. When your ammunition will shoot through a 900 pound bear on a broadside and will penetrate a bear skull then you have enough gun.

That's what I was thinking! It wouldn't have been my choice but it worked! I think it was a case of a man able to remain calm and shoot with great accuracy way more than lucky.

[RPRNY]

Apparently an experienced bear guide values repeat fire and penetration above all else. Based on this single example it's hard to prove it was a "very poor" choice, as that label would have applied better if somebody other than the bear died.

The exception that proves the rule.

However, if you're game, I'm fairly sure we could crowd source a grizzly hunt in Alaska so that you could put your inadequate cartridge where your sharp tongue resides. The television rights to this debacle would surely earn funders a healthy return but I, for one, would be unwilling to direct any proceeds to your heirs.

Sent from my KFOT using Tapatalk

[Piedmont]

I remember a few years back in Handloader or Rifle Magazine Phil (the bear guide in the story) said they carried .357s with 180 grain hard cast ammo. His reasoning was the gun was carryable and with correct shot placement that .357 load had adequate penetration to do the job. A .44 with hard cast loads would too, but you had to hit them in the right place and if you hit them in the right place with a high penetration round it didn't matter whether it was a .357 or .44.

I'm amazed he was carrying a 9mm to protect clients from brown bears.

[w5pv]

The only experience that I have had with any bear was when this 12 year old friend of ours wanted to get a close picture of picture of a black bear and got out of the car to do so wrapped in nothing but a blanket after she had a accident and soiled her clothes but when the bear made a run at her she forgot about the blanket and camera and made it back to the car.I waited until the bear wondered off and went and collected the things she had dropped but still get a belly laugh out of the memory.It is funny to her now but not then and that was over 45 years ago.


Vote Trump

[Teddy (punchie)]

First he they should be thankful it all worked out. I would not take a 9mm hunting for any large game. Why would I take it for protection from that game. Nice shooting !!

[35remington]

RP, perhaps you should send outraged emails to this fella telling him how stupid he was. He used it on the bear, not me. Perhaps you should focus your righteous indignation on the person that committed this impossibility. It wasn't me. Nowhere did I suggest I would be interested in using a 9mm, so save the bear hunt for yourself or the involved individual.

My observations are rooted in fact.....the bear died. They did not. Not an arguable point. Telling him how stupid he was would be more effective had there been a different outcome.

Given how this all turned out I will let others drape themselves with the mantle of All Knowing Arbiters Of Appropriate Bear Defense Guns.

[OS OK]

He's shot wounded bears before...could be he has some inside information on this 9's penetration and capabilities. After all it is a fairly high speed slug that meat and bone have to stop.
Maybe it's the weight savings on the hip he opts for in his age...I dunnoh...it seems like a sketchy choice from over here though.

[bouncer50]

This is not the first story i hear of a bear being killed by a 9mm. It did the job and every one lived to tell about it. Not my first choice either for a bear gun.

[Walkingwolf]

I would not chance it with normal SD 9mm loads. For woods carry it is nothing less than a 357 or a 40 S&W, but usually a 44. He had the right ammo, heavy(for 9mm) non HP bullet with a flat point. Shot placement, and penetration are the key, I would never carry HP for woods carry, I have little use for them for SD either. Personally I would have had a 40 in the same, or similar package rather than a 9.

[Premod70]

It would be of interest to have a examination of the bullets paths and destruction of the bear. The guide was lucky the bear was distracted by the clients or the outcome could have easily been in the bears favor. Never go into harms way with a one gun/one shooter plan. There should be two or more for any form of security in the environment the guide took his clients. A very lucky day for all.

[jmort]

"It would be of interest to have a examination of the bullets paths and destruction of the bear."

The magic meplat, no moving parts and crazy insane penetration, even in a 9mm.


ALASKAN GUIDE, PHIL SHOEMAKER, USES 9MM OUTDOORSMAN ROUNDS IN A S&W 3954 TO STOP AN ATTACKING GRIZZLY - See story and photos below.Tim,
Two days ago I was guiding a couple from NY on a fishing trip and decided to pack my S&W 3954 pistol . When we were approaching the stream we bumped into a large boar who must have been sleeping as we were talking loud just so we wouldn't suprise one. Over the past 33 years I have lived and guided here on the Alaska peninsula I have never had to kill a bear in defense of life but this bear was different.
We were in thick brush and I was only 8 or 10 feet from the bear when he started growling and huffing. I began yelling and it eventually ran around, behind my two clients, into the brush. But within 15 seconds it came charging back from the area behind us and popped out of the brush 10 feet from me ! I had the little S&W in my hands and was thinking I was probably going to have to shoot it but as it cleared the brush it headed toward my clients. The man had enough sense to grab his wife and fall backwards into the tall grass. The bear seemed to loose track of them, even though it was less than 3 feet away from them and it was highly agitated ! It then swung toward me, I was 6 or 8 feet away, and I fired the first shot into the area between the head and shoulder. It growled and started wildly thrashing around, still basically on the feet of my clients. My next shot hit it in the shoulder and it began twisting and biting at the hits and I continued firing as fast as I could see vitals. Five shots later it turned into the brush and I hit it again and it twisted and fell 20 feet from us !
We hiked out and I flew back to camp to report the incident to F&G and pick up my daughter to go back and skin the bear for F&G.
You are the first person I have told this story to as I haven't decided whether to write it up or not, or where, but thought you should know that your ammo WORKS. We recovered 4 of the bullets and I took a photo of the back of the bear after the hide was removed that shows an entry on one side of the back and the tip of the bullet on the off side ...
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com (http://www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com/)
http://buffalobore.net/images/PhilShoemaker.jpg
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=388

[ole 5 hole group]

I do like 35remington's posts, as they get to the point of the matter at hand.

That 9mm did the job and was the right firearm for that guide, that day. That particular brown bear really wasn't interested in killing those 3 people that day or else he would have killed all 3 and died from the inflicted wounds a very short time later.

In my opinion, the 3 individuals entered this bears territory uninvited and the bear was on a mission to teach them some manners and ran into a guy shooting a 9mm and he decided to turn around and get out of Dodge and died for his efforts. Not much more to it, because if that bear was intent on killing those 3 individuals, he would have done so at that distance and without a CNS strike a 9mm, 45ACP, 44 magnum, 45 Colt or a 460 Weatherby wouldn't make a difference.

Shot placement is king and why a charging bear will turn when hit with a heavy rifle or any other type firearm or just keep coming is known only to our Creator and I'm a firm believer in being the best you can be when involved in a deadly confrontation but when your time is up - it's up, doesn't mean you have to accept it, but you're checkin out just the same.;-)

[flint45]

Glad everyone livid to tell there story! I dont care what someone wants to carry in bear country to protect themself carry a.22lr if you want they have killed even bigger bears the lady runnin the trap line killed the big one with a .22. But if I am going fishing in bear county with a guide I want him to carry some thing a little more powerful then a stupid litte pocket pistol in 9mm. Thank GOD for Providence.

[35remington]

o5hg, seems to me that assessment is a fair characterization of just what happened and why.

[AK Caster]

Seems Phil is always on a mission trying to tell people big bears can be killed with smaller calibers even though when he is guiding hunters his rifle choice is a .458. Appears to me to be a sort of publicity stunt at its finest.

[RPRNY]

RP, perhaps you should send outraged emails to this fella telling him how stupid he was. He used it on the bear, not me. Perhaps you should focus your righteous indignation on the person that committed this impossibility. It wasn't me. Nowhere did I suggest I would be interested in using a 9mm, so save the bear hunt for yourself or the involved individual.

My observations are rooted in fact.....the bear died. They did not. Not an arguable point. Telling him how stupid he was would be more effective had there been a different outcome.

Given how this all turned out I will let others drape themselves with the mantle of All Knowing Arbiters Of Appropriate Bear Defense Guns.

And Karamojo Bell successfully killed hordes of elephants with the 6.5 Mannlicher-Schoenauer. Yet those countries that allow elephant hunting set minimum caliber standards that far exceed Bell's choices. Why? 9mm is NOT a good choice for grizzly bear protection. The fact that an experienced guide was able to down one with a 9mm does not make it a good choice. Your manipulation of my statement is Mainstream Media Quality, but equally immaterial and irrelevant. If you think 9mm is a good choice, I strongly encourage you to test it and I will happily write you up for a Darwin Award.

[35remington]

Already answered that question. Go yell at the guy who needs to hear it. You seem to persist in believing I shot the bear and that I personally selected the 9mm for the job. That is truly immaterial and irrelevant as I assure you I did not.

Work up your indignation for the right person.

Again, it ain't me. I made no suggestion I would use any such choice. I merely observed the bear was dead and they were not. This observation is not open to question on your part.

I might suggest you may go play on the Interstate as a counteroffer. It would be equally irrelevant as compared to your suggestion.

I suppose you could try to write up Shoemaker for your Darwin Award, but he lived, didn't he? Why not go after the guy who actually did what you consider to be horribly foolish but survived anyway? No need to ask me to do what I ain't gonna do.

[RPRNY]

35Rem, your behavior is called 'passive aggressive' in the psychology world. It is unfortunate, impolite, and unnecessary. An apology would have shown better character.

[44man]

A NINE? Got to be crazy. Guides carry a .375 rifle or larger. I won't hunt with a stupid guide with a nine. Pure stinking luck. The nine is not much more then a .38 and seen a .38 flatten on a deer skull. Road kill to be dispatched.
Many shots with the toy on the bear. looks like 8 shots. Good ammo but bleed out killed the bear. Could be dead people in between. I have a guide with that toy, I am going home. Pompous ***!

[35remington]

RP, given you have accused me of advocating something I have not advocated, and picked a point of contention I had no part in advancing, any apology should come from yourself. You're the one who dreamt it up as a point of contention.

Not me. Never did I say I would consider the 9 a "good choice." You made your own straw man.

[clintsfolly]

Have read a few threads about this and if I ever get to play in Big Bear area I want Mr Shoemaker to be there and he can carry any thing he wants! Hope to be bigger then the nine mm but it was his choice and it worked out for him. Me I want my NMBH 41 mag or Redhawk 44 mag. Glad it all worked out for him and his people.

[jonp]

It worked, but wonder why not something else.
Im going to question the wisdom of a guide armed with a 9mm in griz country responsible for his clients. A Ruger 454 Alaskan would be a much better choice if not a 12g.

I have not read the other comments yet but I bet im not alone. I also wonder what type of people would not arm themselves when doing this in Alaska.

If I showed up to fly fish and the guide was armed with a 9mm I would seriously consider a different guide. 9mm is not my 1st choice for personnal defense let alone an enraged grizzly

[B. Lumpkin]

It is now documented fact that the 9mm is enough gun to kill a bear. This will blow the minds of armchair warriors across the internet.

Dizzang.

[Hogdaddy]

I reckon I carry a brown bear killer on my hip mostly ; )
H/D

[35remington]

As a guess, and this was stated elsewhere by someone on this thread earlier, I presume Shoemaker did penetration testing of various rounds given what he's put in print about the issue before. And maybe came to the conclusion that since the hotted up 9mm loads penetrated about as well as the magnum rounds in a practical sense and had more ammo and repeat fire capability and controllability, he'd just go with that, with his practical experience suggesting that a life or death encounter was unlikely.

Now I'll wait for someone to suggest I'm advocating 9mm for bear, again. I will suggest they read what I print rather than infer something else. And please get PO'ed at the right person and give it a rest where I am concerned.

What I'm actually trying to do is figure out the thought process of someone who knows more about bear than anyone here and yet took a 9mm anyway.

Cannot but help but note everyone but the bear survived.

[M-Tecs]

I have killed cattle and pigs with a 22LR. Only killed a couple of baloney bulls and I used a 22 Mag. All one shot kills. As I kid I worked at a rural service station that was the only one open on weekends. I would get called out on wrecker calls. Killed a couple of horses, more cattle and lots of deer with a 22LR. One of the horses had a couple of broken legs. It's head was thrashing so badly it took me a 5 or 6 shots. Place properly the 22LR will kill most animals. Mass and energy does nothing in a miss or a very poor shot but it does help with the marginal hits.

Glad it worked well for the guide but you will not find me carrying a 9mm for large bear defense. A friend of mine is a brown bear guide. When he started he had a 300 Weatherby. He later went to a 338 Win but he now uses a 375 H&H after a couple of close calls.

[huntersdog]

Here is a .40 S&W Grizzly 7 Square kill last weekend, the guy was hunting with his handgun. Ammo was SIG Sauer .40 S&W 165GR.

This is a buddies hunt, not mine.

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[35remington]

If someone does something everyone considers extremely stupid and survives a harrowing life or death encounter, I am at least given to consider that maybe he's not that extremely stupid.

Probably values a CNS hit over all other factors. Again just a guess, but would better explain what he did. Who here has killed more bears or has more time "in country" than Shoemaker?

[Hogdaddy]

Heck I would soil my pants,, If I seen a grizly up close < 30 yards.. I'm a old flatlander ; )
H/D

[35remington]

Honestly, it is likely even a much heavier caliber handgun will kill bear relatively slowly with a non CNS hit.

If you're in a fracas with an irritated bear and are armed with nearly any type of handgun (or any other gun) there's a pretty good chance you could die or get chewed on. As was pointed out earlier, whether it happens or not probably has more to do with the bear's inclination rather than the exact gun you're carrying.

Is that not possible given a non CNS hit? If you make a CNS hit you've imposed your will decisively. A non CNS hit mean's it's up to the bear whether he quits in time so you live or not, mostly.

An experienced guide of many years must have done something right.....?????

[M-Tecs]

For most defensive situations the goal is to stop the bad behavior as quickly as possible.. Killing is a secondary consideration. I am an avid bow hunter. I have no doubt that I could very effectively kill a brown bear with an arrow. From a tree stand it would be my preferred method, however, from the ground to stop a charge it would be my last choice.

In the mid 90 I witnessed the Cops kill bad guy. I was not impressed with the 9mm stopping power on a 180 pound human.

Here's a pic for the first of the year from my buddies outfitting service

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[jonp]

Here is a .40 S&W Grizzly 7 Square kill last weekend, the guy was hunting with his handgun. Ammo was SIG Sauer .40 S&W 165GR.

This is a buddies hunt, not mine.

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I"ll be the first. Your buddy is a retard and if you go out into the wild with him bring a real firearm

[jonp]

"Honestly, it is likely even a much heavier caliber handgun will kill bear relatively slowly with a non CNS hit."

It's not whether or not a given caliber will kill a bear. It's what the bear will do before it dies.

[RPRNY]

There seem to be two schools of thought here.

One school seems to think that a 9mm handgun is a poor choice for defending one's clients from Grizzlies but that an experienced, cool headed guide, with some luck, was able to come good in the end.

The other school of thought seems to think Shoemaker is the greatest guide EVER, and half-Grizzly himself, and that through extensive, if unmentioned, field testing, came to the reasoned conclusion that a 9mm handgun was a GREAT and responsible choice for defending his clients. Clearly, he has been vindicated.

Everyone is equal. All points of view are equally valid. Everyone has meaning.

Each school of thought should act according to their special, uniquely valuable conclusion.


It will be good for the human race.

[B. Lumpkin]

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[shoot-n-lead]

There seem to be two schools of thought here.

One school seems to think that a 9mm handgun is a poor choice for defending one's clients from Grizzlies but that an experienced, cool headed guide, with some luck, was able to come good in the end.

The other school of thought seems to think Shoemaker is the greatest guide EVER, and half-Grizzly himself, and that through extensive, if unmentioned, field testing, came to the reasoned conclusion that a 9mm handgun was a GREAT and responsible choice for defending his clients. Clearly, he has been vindicated.

Everyone is equal. All points of view are equally valid. Everyone has meaning.

Each school of thought should act according to their special, uniquely valuable conclusion.


It will be good for the human race.

And, some, just tell a lie about what one side is saying.

[huntersdog]

I"ll be the first. Your buddy is a retard and if you go out into the wild with him bring a real firearm

Why you say that? Maybe you should join him in a bow hunt where he take 10-15 yard bow shots on Kodiak bears on the island or interior Grizzly bears. He is a very successful hunter, who has hunted big game around the world and don't live far from Shoemaker.

I'm waiting on the video from when he does Grizzly hunt with a spear. :)

[sghart3578]

What it proves to me is that it is better to be armed with something rather than nothing.

[OS OK]

"Honestly, it is likely even a much heavier caliber handgun will kill bear relatively slowly with a non CNS hit."

It's not whether or not a given caliber will kill a bear. It's what the bear will do before it dies.

​Finally...a rational statement comes out of all this subjective posturing! End of Story!

[Finster101]

Whatever your school of thought is on his choice of firearm, I would not be hiring Mr. Shoemaker as my guide. A man seldom gets that lucky twice.

[charlie b]

"Until now, I have never had to shoot an unwounded bear to protect either myself or clients, but the other week an event occurred and my good fortune changed."

So, from this sentence it seems to me the guy has hunted bears before but never had to defend himself before. I do think he was a very lucky person to have time to put 7 aimed shots into the bear without anyone getting killed in the process. Especially since the woman said she could feel the bear's breath on her face.

Like above, it's what the bear decided to do before it died that made the difference, not the choice of handgun.

I just hope a lot of nitwits don't decide that they can go out into grizzly country and 'play' with one because they have an all-powerful 9MM on their hip.

[Mk42gunner]

"Until now, I have never had to shoot an unwounded bear to protect either myself or clients, but the other week an event occurred and my good fortune changed."


The key word in that sentence is "unwounded," nothing was said of how many previously shot bears he has had to finish off before it got within reach of a person.

I followed the links to BuffaloBore's site. What I want to know is just what the hard cast bullet is made from, since they very specifically state that it is not lead.

Robert

[M-Tecs]

I have some Buffalo Bore hard cast and they are lead alloy. Were on their site are they stating it's not lead?

[44man]

I"ll be the first. Your buddy is a retard and if you go out into the wild with him bring a real firearm
Agree, gun looks smaller then a cork gun. I would be a mile away from him.
I hunt deer and with something over 550 and 190 with revolvers alone, I know what works. Starts with a .44 mag. Deer with the heart blown up can make 100 yards. The .475 will drop almost every deer in place. I would NOT hunt deer with less then a .44 and to carry in bear country, it will be the .475 or .500 JRH. Backup for a large rifle or 12 GA slugs.
I have guys here with nines and many defense calibers that can't hit paper at 20 yards. The little 40 shown is a 7 yard gun. The caliber is good but needs to run from a real gun. I will not own anything under 7-1/2" but would consider 6".
Last guy here also had a Colt 1911. I swear he took 5 minutes for every shot. I shot as fast as I could and took the center out, I can shoot but would I use an ACP for bear?
Penetration must be considered. If I shoot a bear in the head the boolit will remove his tail going out. Pop guns and toys have a hard time killing a BG. They make it to a hospital and recover. The time for a bear to crunch you is one shot and maybe not. They outrun a horse. Time to draw and raise a popgun and aim, TOOO late. Carry pepper.
Now a .475 is something else but you still need it in hand. I shot this deer under the chin, took the neck, a row of short ribs, boolit went under the back straps and out the butt.175267 One shot from a real gun is better then a full mag and a bear might not stand there for a full mag. A fool is born every second.

[B. Lumpkin]

People on here grossly overestimate how hard it is to kill stuff.

[jmort]

^^^
Pretty much

[B. Lumpkin]

A cool head and shot placement saved the day.

[OS OK]

A cool head and shot placement saved the day.

Sure, he had a cool head...if you examine the OP's picture, he had a guy backing him up with a 'big stick!'

[35remington]

"And, some, just tell a lie about what one side is saying."

Pretty much. Nothing like someone willfully distorting what was put into print to make a point about something that wasn't the point with mischaracterization, exaggeration and flat out falsehood as well as tossing in a few items that were never even mentioned. Just gotta holler about what you want to make it about rather than what was actually said. From here on out that person is free to have a conversation with himself alone because he's been doing it all along.

Anyone who successfully defends themselves against a bear at close range is lucky no matter what. And as was said, what happens depends upon what the bear decides rather than what is compelled by the bullet impact if a non CNS hit occurs.

That statement was made on this thread long before page 3.

The point about even more powerful handguns/arms killing bear slowly with non CNS hits was to suggest when the bear is toe to toe with you a hit or hits may not save you.....only the right hit will.

Which may put the decision making process about what to use in a different light than it might otherwise. The bullets used obviously did penetrate sufficiently at some point.

I will still note everyone but the bear is alive.

People do dumb things all the time.....snow ski, drag race, skateboard, fish on brown bear infested trout streams. If risk management was truly the problem the smartest thing to do is not fish on the bear infested stream in the first place.

Another dumb decision? Taking a handgun instead of something more effective. But given the inconvenience of a long gun people have done just that, repeatedly.

Life is is full of dumb decisions yet we do them anyway. We have to experience life. So we get to discuss "degree of stupidity" rather than than alternative of not doing something dumb in the first place.

[Earlwb]

I would tend to defer to the guys that do their living and hunting in bear country. Since they live there they pretty much know what works and doesn't work. It is impressive that a lowly 9mm handgun can take a big brown bear out. But it was still likely very scary for everyone involved and maybe the guide will consider going with something more powerful the next time. Now then as for me, I want something much larger and more powerful in caliber in those areas. But for those guys there in bear country, they obviously know more than I know.

[Col4570]

What is the best way to cook Bear Meat.Is it similar to Beef.

[ReloaderFred]

I find bear meat greasy. Most of the bear hunters around here render it into ground meat for making burgers, etc. The flavor depends a lot on what they've been eating. This time of year, they gorge themselves on blackberries, since they grow everywhere here on the coast, and their droppings are blue/black and full of seeds. If they've been eating carrion, the flavor will suffer accordingly.

I much prefer elk meat myself, but the Northern Alberta moose I got a few years ago was probably the best game I've ever harvested, flavor wise.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[sixshot]

This subject has been talked to death on several different forums & there are a few different versions being told, what we do know is:
Lots of big game has been killed with some very small caliber guns, we also know that some pretty small game has been shot to pieces with really big guns & either escaped or lived quite a while before expiring. For years the Eskimos killed Polar Bears with 22 Hornets, some of those Eskimos made for a very fine snack for the Polar Bear also. In this case it was a very big animal & a very small gun.
Several things came into play on this kill, one, you have one of the most experienced & most respected guides in all of Alaska. Phil Shoemaker has been in on many, many Brown Bear & Grizzly Bear kills although this probably was the first time he ever backed up a client with a 9mm.
Because it was a fishing trip he got a little careless & took the 9mm instead of his usual 44 or a rifle, the 2 clients had nothing, not even bear spray. I think the biggest factor besides a cool head was the fact that the bear was not straight on, it was broadside & he was shooting, for the most part into soft tissue, huge difference! Those hard cast slugs penetrated into the vitals & he was experienced enough to keep firing until the threat was over.
Bad part is, what a person carries to protect themselves is on them, what they carry when paying clients are at stake is also on them. This could have been very, very bad had the bear charged Phil instead of being broadside. It worked out but, again, a very poor choice for such a highly respected & experienced man like Phil, who is right at the top of the list of bear guides in the world. We can argue it both ways, it worked out but the margin of error on this one, well......... they survived! Hope this experience doesn't get some rookie killed when he's up there fishing & packing his trusty 9mm!

Dick

[OS OK]

I would be more interested in what Phill's 'afterthoughts' are now that it's all over with. I hope someone will interview him again with that in mind.

[Mk42gunner]

I have some Buffalo Bore hard cast and they are lead alloy. Were on their site are they stating it's not lead?

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=388


Excerpt from the linked page:
This 9mm load is rated @ +P pressures (not +P+) and as such is safe to use in any/all 9mm chambered pistols that are in normal operating condition. The hard cast bullet (not lead, but hard cast) will not lead foul a functional barrel that is in a normal state of operation, including polygonal barrels, in any make of pistol, including Glock pistols. It may be helpful to read my essay on “Hard Cast Bullets in Polygonal barrels (https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=59)”.

Tin based babbitt maybe???

Robert

[Walkingwolf]

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=388


Excerpt from the linked page:

Tin based babbitt maybe???

Robert

I read that also, I wish people who are in the business would stop, and think about what they say. They should have said that there bullets were hard cast, compared to soft cast, or pure lead.

[M-Tecs]

Thanks I did not see that. My guess is marketing BS to counter shooting lead in Polygonal barrels. The ones I have look like lead, feel like lead and weigh like lead. I am willing to bet it's a lead alloy.

[Hickory]

People hunt big and dangerous game in Africa and Alaska for the thrill and excitement of the hunt and enjoy it in many ways.
If using a small caliber gun gives a person that shot of adrenalin and excitement, good for him.
Getting your face or arm ripped off can give you the same excitement and adrenalin boost you can find nowhere else in the hunting world, this is usually called a "once in a life time experience."
Personally, I think using a firearm that is most suited for the job can be just as exciting and less hazardous.
But, to each his own.

[huntersdog]

I get a kick out of folks, saying you need at least a .44 Mag handgun for bear defense, but yet need a .338 Win Mag or larger to hunt the bear. But on the flip side, they wouldn't be caught dead out hunting Grizzly's with .44 Magnum rifle.

For may, many years 1000's of big bears have with small calibers such as the .22 hornet, .223 and 30-30. Shot placement is key regarding what ever caliber you use. Heck some even use lances and spears to still hunt big game around the world.

[huntersdog]

People hunt big and dangerous game in Africa and Alaska for the thrill and excitement of the hunt and enjoy it in many ways.
If using a small caliber gun gives a person that shot of adrenalin and excitement, good for him.
Getting your face or arm ripped of can give you the same excitement and adrenalin boost you can find nowhere else in the hunting world, this is usually called a "once in a life time experience."
Personally, I think using a firearm that is most suited for the job can be just as exciting and less hazardous.
But, to each his own.

^^^
Very well said!

[Premod70]

The next 9mm user may have a new story to tell; titled Bear's Revenge by Claude Bawlz.

[Blackwater]

A steady hand and a clear sense of purpose will prove most theories wrong, especially when it comes to stopping a threat.

762

762shooter is right. The best asset one can have in a real tight situation is a steady hand and sense of purpose. Given that, it's amazing how little it really takes to win a fight IF one uses what's available well. Those Buffalo Bore bullets are famous for being penetrators, and being “undergunned” in the mind of many, it was penetration and marksmanship that won the day, along with the aforesaid steady hand and sense of purpose, which defeats fear. Giving in to fear due to knowledge of or suspected personal lackings is a man's biggest enemy, and Phil did a great job in the direst of situations.


I've long read everything I could about Phil and always will. He's as savy as they come. That day, he just wasn't lucky at all. The photos of those Buffalo Bore bullets under the offside hide proves pretty conclusively that a 9mm, PROVIDED THE RIGHT BULLETS ARE USED, really CAN do the job if called upon and in a real tight. With your average 9mm load sold over the counter though, he'd likely be bear scat now. Ammo selection is becoming the most arbitrary and whimsical decisions we make for field use, and it really, really REALLY ought not be that way. But with so many living such urbanized lives, and with urbanization reaching ever more deeply into surrounding areas, and the idjit laws being what they are, it's hard for most folks now to FIND a place to shoot so they CAN learn this stuff. Many aren't even motivated, but it makes a whale of a difference at times, and Phil obviously realized this, and made his ammo selection accordingly.


When going “undergunned,” penetration is the key. Get a bulllet deeply into a vital spot, and you'll do the eating. Miss, regardless of caliber, and you can get et!!! That ain't no small thing, and I know Phil has learned all about that long ago, or he might not be with us today.


Greeat work, Phil! Awesome display of courage and determination under VERY trying circumstances. Thanks for the story, and in particular the photos. Maybe your experience will make some realize the importance of ammo selection, and doing it on the basis of knowledge and purpose for which it might be used and appropriate.


And BTW, in WWII, it's been said the Nazis used to try to save ammo by lining up 3-4 Jews or whoever and putting a single 9mm FMJ throgh all of them. So a 9mm. Certainly has the ABILITY to reach the vitals with the right bullet. So the real question is the quality of man who's wielding the gun. Ya' done good, bro'! REAL good!

[sixshot]

huntersdog, curious, how many bears have you taken. And which small caliber or spear did you choose?

Dick

[44man]

This is one of the funniest pictures I have.175302 Bison hunt on a ranch. Bison can't be tamed and can crush you fast. .500 S&W but see the rancher with a rifle! These were just tame enough to approach, not so in the wild. You don't get a camera in close either with wild. maybe the rancher should have a nine!

[huntersdog]

huntersdog, curious, how many bears have you taken. And which small caliber or spear did you choose?

Dick

I've taken six black bears, 2 with a recurve bow and all of the rest of them have been with NP 60 grain .223 in a single-shot rifle. All bow shots were under 30 yards and rifle were under 100 yards. We never had a lot of money growing up so we had to hunt with what we had.

[M-Tecs]

Bison can be tamed very well. Ted Nugget has a pet one that he rides out on stage. Bison trained to be saddle trained are not uncommon. You see them being ridden at rodeos occasionally. A very good friend of mine has Bison ranch with about 600 head. Bulls are a very impressive animal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv5FzH1wrdQ

Back to the subject at hand. Phil was very luck at he didn't face a full on charge. I don't question the 9mm ability to kill a large bear. I do question if it will kill if fast enough in a full on charge.

[44man]

Maybe from a new born. I watched a farmer with them and he said he had to jump the fence many times.

[OS OK]

That bull looked like he was 'barn broke', did you see how fast he was ready to go back in for some 'sweet feed'?
If you fall off out in the country and he disappears...you'll know where to find him though.

[M-Tecs]

I've seen this one in person


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ0ex2R71yQ

[M-Tecs]

One more
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhi8nJGLwP8

[M-Tecs]

Who needs a trailer?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=estTtyHv8D4

[huntersdog]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtnZ2vFR9Hc

[M-Tecs]

That bull looked like he was 'barn broke', did you see how fast he was ready to go back in for some 'sweet feed'?
If you fall off out in the country and he disappears...you'll know where to find him though.

Twenty years ago when my friend first started buffalo ranching he was worried about them going through the seven strand barb wire so he feed them a buffalo cakes from the back of an old 3/4 Ford 4x4 pickup. They ran to it like kids to an ice-cream truck. If they every go out the plan was they would follow the truck back. They never go out and he has stopped doing it.

I loved driving when he feed them. The tuck looked like it had been rolled repeatedly. The big bulls didn't have a lot of patience. If they didn't get there "treat" they would push against the side of the truck with their head. I wasn't a problem for a bull to push the front end to the truck three feet sideways. A couple of times they turned it 180 degrees.

[OS OK]

My next door Rancher brings his cattle over to my east pasture and gets 3 consecutive feeds off it every spring, each feed last about a week. He throws a few flakes in the front loader on the tractor and opens all the gates between us and drives over like the pied piper with his herd in tow.
The wife gets a kick out of having them here, she goes out there with a bucket full of dried apple treats and comes back in the house grinning and covered in steer snot. She'll take the grandkids out there and sit down in the grass and eventually the cattle will form a circle around her just looking and sniffing her and the kids...they don't know what to make of her.
That's why I can't raise beef cattle, she turns everything into a pet.

[JHeath]

People on here grossly overestimate how hard it is to kill stuff.

That is generally true. But there's a vast gap between confidently throwing a .357 bullet at a whitetail from 50 yards, versus pumping 5 rounds from the same gun at an approaching 1000lb brown bear at across-the-room distance and he's still on his feet and agitated. You start feeling pretty stupid and helpless with your remaining round of .357 at that point. As stated above I put several of .45acp in a charging *badger* and when the slide locked back he was still coming. I know what that feels like, and would never willingly put myself in that situation with a brown bear and the same pistol.

[tazman]

Bears can be difficult to kill or extremely easy. It depends on the particular bear and where you hit it. I had two friends go on a hunt out west carrying 375H&H rifles. Their guide carried the same. One shot a bear and it dropped right there. The other needed all the bullets in his and the guide's rifle to put it down. All but one of the rounds were through the chest. The bear stopped about 10 yards away.
You just never know which bear you are shooting at. The easy one or the tough one.

[B. Lumpkin]

That is generally true. But there's a vast gap between confidently throwing a .357 bullet at a whitetail from 50 yards, versus pumping 5 rounds from the same gun at an approaching 1000lb brown bear at across-the-room distance and he's still on his feet and agitated. You start feeling pretty stupid and helpless with your remaining round of .357 at that point. As stated above I put several of .45acp in a charging *badger* and when the slide locked back he was still coming. I know what that feels like, and would never willingly put myself in that situation with a brown bear and the same pistol.

All animals are a wild card when you shoot them. From the tiny mouse to the big bear. Good hits kill, and bad hits cause wound/anger/fight or wound/fear/flight.

[sixshot]

Some one said placement is "key', that's only half true, the other half is penetration, without it on a big bear& you're in for a real bad afternoon! Anyone ever read Larry Kelly's story about him & his guide shooting a small grizzly 14 times as it charged them & came right in the cabin with them. Larry was shooting a 44 or a 454, not sure, and his guide was shooting a 375 H&H I believe. I think both of them reloaded during the fight. My boys & I have killed several black bears that were bigger than the grizzly that was trying to eat them!
My son's & I and my grandson's have taken 25 bears between us & several of them have been bigger than the small sow grizzly that ended up in Larry Kelly's cabin that took 14 shots, you just never know how they are going to react. All of our bears have been spot & stalk & 3 of mine were in Alaska. Here's one of my son's with a black bear that is much bigger than the little grizzly.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/100_1416-4.jpg (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/6shot_01/media/100_1416-4.jpg.html)
On a handgun hunt in Africa a few years ago my hunting buddy told the PH he wanted to shoot a Warthog with a 17 Caliber wildcat, the PH was against it but finally gave in. My buddy hit something but it wasn't the Warthog, the bullet deflected on some grass or a branch & the PH didn't ask him to put it away, he "told" him to put it away. Use enough gun if you're going to shoot something, don't make a stunt out of it, especially if you are protecting clients!

Dick

[huntersdog]

Some one said placement is "key', that's only half true, the other half is penetration, without it on a big bear& you're in for a real bad afternoon! Anyone ever read Larry Kelly's story about him & his guide shooting a small grizzly 14 times as it charged them & came right in the cabin with them. Larry was shooting a 44 or a 454, not sure, and his guide was shooting a 375 H&H I believe. I think both of them reloaded during the fight. My boys & I have killed several black bears that were bigger than the grizzly that was trying to eat them!
My son's & I and my grandson's have taken 25 bears between us & several of them have been bigger than the small sow grizzly that ended up in Larry Kelly's cabin that took 14 shots, you just never know how they are going to react. All of our bears have been spot & stalk & 3 of mine were in Alaska. Here's one of my son's with a black bear that is much bigger than the little grizzly.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/100_1416-4.jpg (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/6shot_01/media/100_1416-4.jpg.html)
On a handgun hunt in Africa a few years ago my hunting buddy told the PH he wanted to shoot a Warthog with a 17 Caliber wildcat, the PH was against it but finally gave in. My buddy hit something but it wasn't the Warthog, the bullet deflected on some grass or a branch & the PH didn't ask him to put it away, he "told" him to put it away. Use enough gun if you're going to shoot something, don't make a stunt out of it, especially if you are protecting clients!

Dick

Funny you mention that Larry Kelly story, I looked last night for pictures and article. There was an article in the Leopold 1994 catalog (I believe that was the issue) where Bob Gerlach or one of the guys from Leopold and Larry Kelly were hunting in the Alaska bush and if I remember correctly. One morning they unzipped the tent and 50 or so yards down by the river a Grizzly heard it and made a mad dash for them. When done and said something like 17 or so rounds were fired from handgun and rifleand and all hit the bear and the bear died at the yellow tent opening. I'll look and see if I still have the article. Or call ken Kelly on Monday and we if he still has a copy.

[Hickok]

Really neat article. Glad it turned out the way it did. Those 147 gr boolits @ 1100 fps are really "hot.":2gunsfiring_v1:

I was amazed at the penetration from the 9mm.

Meplat+penetration, in the right spot/spots, good outcome.:-D

[44man]

I have no need to carry but if I lived in a dangerous place I still want the biggest bang for the buck. Although a soft target the most dangerous animal is a drugged up human. I would put more faith in a .22 instead of a .25, .380 or nine. From a .22 I would go 10mm or .40 and a 1911. Yet as good as the .45 ACP is, it is still not a big bear gun.
Shooting as many deer as I have, penetration alone is over rated if no energy is placed.
The fact is I would be askeered of a big bear, more so then a creep because a creep will stare down a big bore.
There are drug addled jerks even in our small town but they don't come around here because of the amount of shooting we do and the only people that have had break ins are those that don't shoot. It is really true that having a gun in the home will deter a creep. But a big bear does not know that. When he comes you better set him back on his butt. Toys and stunts will get you killed.
I want a start with .47, not even .44. As good as a .45 Colt is, I don't want it either.
Watching guys with the little guns at 10 yards, even a white house security guy, big tough bruiser could not hit paper! I hope he is assigned to the "O".
Then accuracy with the little guns is so sad since they are not made for target, just close range spray and pray, takes a full mag to hit a creep once or twice and he survives.
Guys want to hunt deer with a 2" snubby .38, get real, not here. Go home and get a gun.
.223 another fail. Had a friend with his daughter here, she made a perfect shot on a big doe, path to the heart. Lost it, no blood. I found it a little later 200 yards away when going to my stand. I gutted her and found the bullet went in 6". I shot one from my stand with the SBH and called to have them get her deer. I convinced him to get her a 30-30 and she is a happy camper.
I have been accused for using a revolver too big but I eat good. There will never be a day I use a toy.

[dbarry1]

People on here grossly overestimate how hard it is to kill stuff.

Generally true on all gun forums, coffee shops, campfires, etc. People forget they were killing bears (and people) long before smokeless powders came around.

[44man]

Generally true on all gun forums, coffee shops, campfires, etc. People forget they were killing bears (and people) long before smokeless powders came around.
You do not know how true that is. I suppose I have over 220 deer killed with a ML. Then a C&B revolver. I would not want to face a .36 to .44 C&B. A nine sucks at the tail, no milk there.
A C&B is so deadly I can't explain it. I would carry a .36 Navy before a nine.

[sixshot]

Yup, & those lead balls killed several million head of Bison even though they were pure lead. Not a 30/06 or 9mm in sight back then!!!

Pretty sure they were in a cabin & the bear invited itself in with them before lead poisoning got the best of it.....

Dick

[JHeath]

All animals are a wild card when you shoot them. From the tiny mouse to the big bear. Good hits kill, and bad hits cause wound/anger/fight or wound/fear/flight.

You can empty your .44 into a bear's chest with "good hits", and still be in a very bad, dangerous situation. It does you no good if the bear dies later.

Getting "good hits" on a bunny or pronghorn is fine.

[JHeath]

Generally true on all gun forums, coffee shops, campfires, etc. People forget they were killing bears (and people) long before smokeless powders came around.

They did, it's true. Ask Lewis and Clark how well that worked:

". . . they [six hunters from the goup] took the advantage of a small eminence which concealed them and got within 40 paces of him unperceived, two of them reserved their fires as had been previously conscerted, the four others fired nearly at the same time and put each his bullet through him, two of the balls passed through the bulk of both lobes of his lungs, in an instant this monster ran at them with open mouth, the two who had reserved their fires discharged their pieces at him as he came towards them, boath of them struck him, one only slightly and the other fortunately broke his shoulder, this however only retarded his motion for a moment only, the men unable to reload their guns took to flight, the bear pursued and had very nearly overtaken them before they reached the river; two of the party betook themselves to a canoe and the others seperated an concealed themselves among the willows, reloaded their pieces, each discharged his piece at him as they had an opportunity they struck him several times again but the guns served only to direct the bear to them, in this manner he pursued two of them seperately so close that they were obliged to throw aside their guns and pouches and throw themselves into the river altho’ the bank was nearly twenty feet perpendicular; so enraged was this anamal that he plunged into the river only a few feet behind the second man he had compelled take refuge in the water, when one of those who still remained on shore shot him through the head and finally killed him; they then took him on shore and butchered him when they found eight balls had passed through him in different directions.

[RPRNY]

There's no use offering facts. You can't fix stupid. It's voluntary.

[Multigunner]

Interesting historical information from Lewis and Clarke. I really like reading this sort of thing.

Years ago in an article on the early Colt C&B revolvers they recounted a story from the records of a survey party attached to the Army out west.

Two surveyors spotted a Plains Grizzly. Having never heard of these before they thought they could take it down with their sporting rifles, and each had a Colt Navy as back up so they were very confident.
After absorbing two rifle balls and twelve .36 caliber bullets the bear was on the point of ending their expedition on the spot. At the last moment a Dragoon who was part of their military escort rode up and fired "two shots from a Dragoon revolver of the largest type" which may have been a Walker Colt or transitional model . The heavy slugs from the Dragoon's revolver plowed into the bear's heart stopping him cold in his tracks.

[victorfox]

some smart a**** here in brazil are using Condor PCP .22 airguns pushing JSB or Eunjin 28-32gr pellets to hunt wild hogs and boars. Saw a video (lenghty and boring) of this and seems they coukd get some 150lbs sows and smaller piglets.

They do it because of our insane restrictions and bureaucracy, since you need stinky permits from Army and Enviro agency to hunt the pigs. The way they do they only get the Agency permit since .22 airguns are free to carry and use. I wonder if they ever got into a big tusked bad temoered boar if they will continue this thing. Also we can't see how many pigs they injure or lose with this peashooter (they hunt at night driving the pigs with motorcycles, so there are no good opportunities for a decent shot placement)

This guide is either an airhead or too cocky for carrying his social work gun for bear work. If you throw a couple of "what if"s, he would be in a pretty mess, dealing with courts and losing his shirt.

I'd rather have a 12 pump with brenneke slugs or similar if I was chasing pigs or playing around bears, cougars, jaguars and such beasts... just for good measure.

Thankfully all went well.

[pmer]

Old Phil should get a free box of shells any time he calls Buffalo Bore. You couldn't plan that if you tried - great advertising. Just think what BB could do with the 12 ga. slug if they wanted to.

:kidding: I heard they make mean 36 cal cap N ball ammo to those how don't like .380 and 9 :kidding:

[OS OK]

They did, it's true. Ask Lewis and Clark how well that worked:

". . . they [six hunters from the goup] took the advantage of a small eminence which concealed them and got within 40 paces of him unperceived, two of them reserved their fires as had been previously conscerted, the four others fired nearly at the same time and put each his bullet through him, two of the balls passed through the bulk of both lobes of his lungs, in an instant this monster ran at them with open mouth, the two who had reserved their fires discharged their pieces at him as he came towards them, boath of them struck him, one only slightly and the other fortunately broke his shoulder, this however only retarded his motion for a moment only, the men unable to reload their guns took to flight, the bear pursued and had very nearly overtaken them before they reached the river; two of the party betook themselves to a canoe and the others seperated an concealed themselves among the willows, reloaded their pieces, each discharged his piece at him as they had an opportunity they struck him several times again but the guns served only to direct the bear to them, in this manner he pursued two of them seperately so close that they were obliged to throw aside their guns and pouches and throw themselves into the river altho’ the bank was nearly twenty feet perpendicular; so enraged was this anamal that he plunged into the river only a few feet behind the second man he had compelled take refuge in the water, when one of those who still remained on shore shot him through the head and finally killed him; they then took him on shore and butchered him when they found eight balls had passed through him in different directions.

Thanks for this read...you had me on the edge of my chair for a few moments...there may be a brown stripe in my shorts now also! Holy cow, whatta bear!

[jmort]

"Just think what BB could do with the 12 ga. slug if they wanted to."


​Their web site listed a 12 gauge slug as "coming soon" for a while and then it disappeared. I sent an email inquiry and never got a response. I will try again as I would be interested to see their take on a slug.

[ReloaderFred]

Thanks for this read...you had me on the edge of my chair for a few moments...there may be a brown stripe in my shorts now also! Holy cow, whatta bear!

The Lewis & Clark Chronicles are available on CD. It makes a long road trip go by fast listening to their story. If I remember correctly, the one we listened to was about 37 hours long, but what a fascinating story of perseverance and courage.... Only one person died on the voyage, and that was to appendicitis at the beginning of the trip.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[OS OK]

175494

Thanks Fred, the wife and I enjoy books on cd, we never listen to the radio or hardly play music cd's anymore. Heres one I keep in the shop...just can't hear it enough.
Early Texas and the Indians, Mexicans and early immigrant Texans...it was rough.