Best cast cartridge for a Martini cadet?

[andym79]

Hi guys, you may have seen from my other post that i am considering a wildcat in a Martini Cadet.

In the interest however of meeting my original idea, I welcome suggestions as to the best cartridge that I can get to fit into a martini cadet.

By best I mean the mostly likely to prove accurate using cast bullets out to 200 yards!

all suggestions welcome wildcat or standard!

[M-Tecs]

The 30 Reese would be my first choice. It's basically a rimmed 300 Black Out.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?156786-30-357-or-300-rimmed-BLK

http://singleactions.proboards.com/thread/10881/30-357-mag

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/hr-centerfire-rifles/300-blackout-rimmed/

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/05/09/interesting-300-aac-blk-357-wildcat/

30 Badger
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?256118-30-Badger-30-Reece

One more option http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=570

the 32-20 is another option.

[andym79]

Thanks for the reply and links.

I will read them throughly soon.

If I chose the 300 BO I never planed on using it as a true 300 rimless. Rather if I choose it the chamber would be cut with a 300 BO and use 5.6*50r brass to form a rimmed version.

So the rimmed version the 30 Reece is a bit smaller?

What size leade does the Reece have? Can you feed it with big slugs as well as medium ones?

[M-Tecs]

What I posted about is about the limit of my knowledge on these cartridges. I may be getting a friends Martini Cadet in a year or two. The bore is rough. If I do get it I am going with a true rimmed 300 BLK since that is the lowest cost for reamers and dies. Wish I could help more but until I actual get the Cadet work out the details. I have all my reamers ground by Pacific Tool. They don't charge any more for custom so I have my reamers ground to my specs.

[old turtle]

Being your basic weird-o I obtained a cadet action and put a Douglas barrel on it. It is chambered in 30-20tc which is a 32-20 necked to .30. I am still playing with it and i have just acquired a NOE 150 gr. mold. It shoots well with 115 to 130 bullets. Still playing with powder. Experimenting is part of the fun.

[gewehrfreund]

218 Bee, 357 Mag. and 32-20 would be my preference in that order.

[Bill Torzsok]

Try the 25-20 win, if you want to have fun.

[iomskp]

There is always the .300sherwood an original caliber for the Martini action.

Regards Trevor

[M-Tecs]

There is always the .300sherwood an original caliber for the Martini action.

Regards Trevor

http://www.300sherwood.net/ What's brass availability?

[Jedman]

You didn't mention what you wanted to use this for target only or maybe hunting ?
Not knowing what is easy to get in Australia I would say 357 Magnum.
The 310 Cadet cartridge was suppose to be usable to 300 yards so a 357 is a good bit more power so it should be good for 200 yards.
I have a cadet chambered in 357 maximum and it is not ideal, extraction is more of a pick it out of the chamber with your fingers as the brass is to long for a true strait walled case in the cadet rifle but the 357 magnum works much better.
I like wildcats as much as anybody but having easy to get components is always nice if your going to shoot a lot.

Jedman

[Bad Ass Wallace]

For 200yd shooting I would look toward a 25/35 or 32/40. Both cartridges will fit the Cadet action.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/23-35_edited-1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/23-35_edited-1.jpg.html)

[M-Tecs]

Outstanding rifle except the stock is backwards. Love the figure/grain in the stock.

Since I already have a 32/40 reamer you got me thinking.

My knowledge on Martini Cadet's is very limited. I've only held by buddies a couple of times and I have never worked on one. Everything the I've read indicated that long of case length would be an issue. Since both those cartridges have lots of body taper do you have to do any additional mod's for a cartridge as long as the 32/40?

[andym79]

Does anyone here have a cadet in 25-35, 7-30, 30-30 or 32-40? If so I would like to know if they load and extract ok without modifying the martini. If these cartridges are on the table then it may change things a bit. In my opinion past 100 yards the rifle cartridges generally have the edge over pistol cartridges.

[M-Tecs]

I would think the 25-35 and 32-40 would be at the upper end of the pressure range I would want in a Cadet, but, again I have very little Cadet/Martini knowledge so at this point all I have is questions and general plan on what I may do if I get my buddies Cadet.

[M-Tecs]

Found these with a little research:

http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1327446643

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?164156-Martitni-Conversion

[Tatume]

The 30-30 and 32-40 are both excellent hunting and target cartridges. Components, particularly cases, are more readily available for the 30-30.

[357Mag]

Andym -Howdy !A .351SL would have th esame rim diam. Could also be necked-down to a long tapered side-wall .32" cal .With regards, 357Mag

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I have two projects in play now both 32/40 on a Cadet action using military 8mm Mauser barrels. Cut off at the original chamber at the shoulder and there is still enough metal to thread for the Martini and as well as leaving the original rear sight base in place, you can mount a scope using a "no drill" mount in the base.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/IMG_0170_zps595ea669.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/IMG_0170_zps595ea669.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/98-KScout_zpsbdbd85a6.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/98-KScout_zpsbdbd85a6.jpg.html)

Found a bit of fancy walnut for the stock.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/Palstock_d_zps28f43ff9.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/Palstock_d_zps28f43ff9.jpg.html)

[Tatume]

That sure is a pretty piece of walnut.

[andym79]

Bad ***, so a 25-35 or 32-40 will defintely work in a Cadet action without breech seating?

[Bigslug]

If I had a naked Cadet action, it would become a .357 Mag in very short order - significantly hotter than the .310 the guns were originally shooting at several hundreds of yards; lots of bullet weights profiles to choose from; standard, straightwall round that's easy to load for; fairly close to the original case head.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Bad ***, so a 25-35 or 32-40 will defintely work in a Cadet action without breech seating?

The little gun pictured IS a 25/35 and shoots 100gn cast boolits extremely well. Loads and extracts perfectly. We have a local gunsmith here who resets the barrel thread to take any Winchester 92 or 94 replacement barrel.

[andym79]

I have a Win 94 in 25-35, its areal nice round, accurate and with almost no recoil compared with a 30-30 at least.

[BigEyeBob]

I would think the 25-35 and 32-40 would be at the upper end of the pressure range I would want in a Cadet, but, again I have very little Cadet/Martini knowledge so at this point all I have is questions and general plan on what I may do if I get my buddies Cadet.


There is always the .300sherwood an original caliber for the Martini action.

Regards Trevor

Trevor check your mail ,been trying to contact you .
Kev.

[BigEyeBob]

Hi guys, you may have seen from my other post that i am considering a wildcat in a Martini Cadet.

In the interest however of meeting my original idea, I welcome suggestions as to the best cartridge that I can get to fit into a martini cadet.

By best I mean the mostly likely to prove accurate using cast bullets out to 200 yards!

all suggestions welcome wildcat or standard!


310 greener or 300 rook or 300 Sherwood

[andym79]

Would a 31-222r (.312") or 33-222r (.338") be crazy?

[Drm50]

I have had a lot of Martinis. I never had one built, but a area gunsmith did a lot of them in the
60s, all on Cadet actions 218, 357, 30/30, 32/20 & wildcats. The last one I had was a 22/357
or Ackley Improved 22 Jet. This rifle was extremely accurate with both cast and jacketed bullets.
It did have a premium target barrel on it. If I was going to build a 30 cal on this action I would
look into the 30Herrit. for easy availability of brass.

[BigEyeBob]

http://www.300sherwood.net/ What's brass availability?
Bertram makes brass ,I bought some when I visited him a few months ago .Its high quality stuff .You can also make it from 25-20 Single shot brass ,just needs trimming to length. 140gn bullet at 1400 fps is the original spec.

[BigEyeBob]

I would think the 25-35 and 32-40 would be at the upper end of the pressure range I would want in a Cadet, but, again I have very little Cadet/Martini knowledge so at this point all I have is questions and general plan on what I may do if I get my buddies Cadet.

They will take in excess of 60,000 psi . I have one chambered in 222Rimmed one time I mis read some loading data and on the first firing the extractor refused to extract the fired case ,as Martini extractors are known for thier flimsyness I waited untill i got home and popped the case with a cleaning rod .On checking the load data I started with the max load for a different powder than what I was using
Grossly over loaded it.No damage and now Im using the correct data for the powder its very accurate .Its my choice for shooting feral dogs at distance.
30-30 is as big as I would go.
Kev.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I would think the 25-35 and 32-40 would be at the upper end of the pressure range I would want in a Cadet, but, again I have very little Cadet/Martini knowledge so at this point all I have is questions and general plan on what I may do if I get my buddies Cadet.

Not the pressure on its own, and not the diameter on its own. I think you would be all right with those cartridges loaded as they conventionally are for lever actions. But if you go for higher than standard pressures there could be a risk of swelling the ¾in. barrel threads. There might also be some difficulty in inserting and ejecting the straighter-bodied ones, especially under a scope. If I wanted to use one of the Ackley improved chamberings I would first try it for fit in a plastic dummy barrel, even one cast in car body filler around a greased dummy round.

People do report good results with the even larger .44 Magnum. I think you ought to stick to moderate pressures in that one, and you might have some trouble getting the block to lower far enough. The .41 would be a little better, and I would have no qualms about higher pressure in a bottlenecked case based on the .357 Magnum or Maximum, .222R or the German 5.6x50R.

In a cast-bullet round for the Cadet I would also look for a rim, reliably available reamers, dies and brass (which .357 Maximum may soon not be), a non-heel bullet, and bullets not so heavy as to require fast-twist rifling. People do make the Cadet work with a rimless case, but the new extractor is a complication, expensive if you pay for it and probably unreliable. Within those parameters there is no "best", as we all use rifles differently. Here is the .255 Jeffery I have used in a non-Martini rook rifle. It can be made with the reamer and shortened die for .25-20, and although the .25-20 case may be disappear, .32-20 isn't much of a conversion job.


176445

[Ballistics in Scotland]

They will take in excess of 60,000 psi . I have one chambered in 222Rimmed one time I mis read some loading data and on the first firing the extractor refused to extract the fired case ,as Martini extractors are known for thier flimsyness I waited untill i got home and popped the case with a cleaning rod .On checking the load data I started with the max load for a different powder than what I was using
Grossly over loaded it.No damage and now Im using the correct data for the powder its very accurate .Its my choice for shooting feral dogs at distance.
30-30 is as big as I would go.
Kev.

In the heyday of Cadet Martini imports to the US, one importer claimed to have proof tested them to 65,000psi. I have a 1968 "American Rifleman" in which Service Armament advertised newly manufactured, colour case hardened and engraved Martini actions, of a size suitable for the .45-70, as "proof tested by the British government to 65,000 pounds per square inch".

Well, the British government didn't. The Birmingham and London gun barrel proof houses did that, and I'd assume those were the pressures used for testing, not the rather lower working pressures they were supposed to establish as safe. "Newly" might be best seen in a similar light too. Still, the Cadet is strong enough for reasonably sized and powered modern cartridges.

It is intriguing to think that those actions must be out there somewhere. Part of very expensive antiques, possibly. It is a good idea to check British or Belgian proofmarks against this guide, which can give useful information on dates.

http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf

[andym79]

Well I am no closer to making a call on this one!

It main use will be at single shot lever action bench rest matches, which are held at 200 yards!

What I want is the most inherently accurate set up that I can get for shooting cast!

My original thought was a miniature 32-40 (say a 32-30), now I just can decide the best way to replicate something like that in a smaller case. I want a cartridge that I can shot cast loads with, with minimal velocity variation, and nearly fill the case with, but ideally I think keeping it sub sonic as to avoid going back throught the sound barrier I need to stock it up a fair bit.

Therefore my thinking is if I want to keep it sub sonic and I can't use velocity to buck the wind then surely I need mass!

At this stage my favorite concept is a 28, 30, 32 or 33 cal wild cat based on the 5.6x50R.

The next consideration is what twist rate to go for, if I am aiming for 1000-1070fps then what twist rate is the happy medium to stabilize larger bullet without spinning them unduly fast?

Easily available barrels to me are:

.284 1:10"
.308 1:12"
.338 1:10"

Which of those is likely the best for purpose?

By the way theses matches are not very slow paced breech seating affairs, everybody uses fixed ammo.

Everything from 218 bee through to 38-55 or 40-65 is used.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

From my testing in 30cal a 210gn boolit in 1:10" twist gave excellent accuracy at 1700fps. This a 10 shot group at 100yards. Cartridges that would suit would be 30/357Max or 30/223 with rimless extractor.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/3006moa2_zpseb7e0a10.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/3006moa2_zpseb7e0a10.jpg.html)

[andym79]

Thanks, that is a sweet group, what load is that?

I am heavily leaning toward a 28, 30 or 33-5.6x50R wildcat (project names being the 8.6x38R, 7.8x38R or 7x38R), because brass is more available than 357 max and cheaper than 222R!

Here is the 338 version (the 338-1.5" or 8.6-38R)

The proposed bullet is 225 grains.

176874

Here is the 308 version (the 308-1.5" or 7.8-38R)

The proposed bullet is 175 grains.

176873

Here is the 284 version (the 284=1.5" or 7.2-38R)

The proposed bullet is 132 grains.

176872

[Jedman]

I have a Zeller action Martini I am building in 256 Win Mag. A idea I thought of would be to take the sizing die and anneal the upper part of the die to where it could be reamed with a carbide reamer. Since you mentioned .284 bore barrels are easy to get and cast bullets n 7 mm can be quite high in BC you could make a 7 X 256 wildcat.
It would be simply the 256 WM case design with a unchanged shoulder but the neck diameter increased to something like .312 OD and except a 7 mm bullet.
You would have enough case capacity to launch 140 - 160 gr. .284 bullets @ 1100 fps and a 1- 10 twist barrel should stabilize that size bullet fine.
You would have the benifits of, cheap easy to get brass ( 357 Mag. ) A high efficient bullet without much recoil and probably only need to burn about 12 - 15 grs. of powder to do it.
No custom reamer needed either. Just my 2 cents.

Jedman176898 I made up a dummy cartridge and this is what it looks like with a 140 gr. bullet

[andym79]

The little gun pictured IS a 25/35 and shoots 100gn cast boolits extremely well. Loads and extracts perfectly. We have a local gunsmith here who resets the barrel thread to take any Winchester 92 or 94 replacement barrel.

Who is the smith bad ***, I have 2 x 30 cal 94 barrels laying around!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I have a Zeller action Martini I am building in 256 Win Mag. A idea I thought of would be to take the sizing die and anneal the upper part of the die to where it could be reamed with a carbide reamer. Since you mentioned .284 bore barrels are easy to get and cast bullets n 7 mm can be quite high in BC you could make a 7 X 256 wildcat.
It would be simply the 256 WM case design with a unchanged shoulder but the neck diameter increased to something like .312 OD and except a 7 mm bullet.
You would have enough case capacity to launch 140 - 160 gr. .284 bullets @ 1100 fps and a 1- 10 twist barrel should stabilize that size bullet fine.
You would have the benifits of, cheap easy to get brass ( 357 Mag. ) A high efficient bullet without much recoil and probably only need to burn about 12 - 15 grs. of powder to do it.
No custom reamer needed either. Just my 2 cents.

Jedman176898 I made up a dummy cartridge and this is what it looks like with a 140 gr. bullet

With many dies you wouldn't even need to anneal it, as long as the reamer is carbide. I have drilled high speed steel reamers and end mills with carbide drills, to insert pilots. I don't know about nitride hardened or hard-chromed ones, though.

It would also be possible to feed .356 dies with .357 Maximum brass. Depending on the configuration of the FL sizing die, you might not have to do any reaming. I think a 7.3mm. engineer's unpiloted reamer would be close enough to be guided by the existing chamber throat and yet clean up to an unstopped neck. If you want 7mm. a piloted neck and throat reamer from someone like Clymer or Manson would be needed.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Who is the smith bad ***, I have 2 x 30 cal 94 barrels laying around!

Alan Swan at Ipswich. He has a conversion that enlarges the Cadet frame thread so that any '92 or '94 barrel thread will screw straight in!

[andym79]

That's the guy I use for my gunsmithing. He does a good job!

Do you know roughly what he chargers to fit a 94 barrel to a cadet?

Do you know if he can convert the cadet to take an even larger thread say .875 major diameter, I have a 25-35 barrel that size!

Do you have any wildcat cartridge in your cadets?

How is the 40-65 going, I still covet that one.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The conversion to take a Winchester barrel seems like a really good idea. Octagonal, even! I've done this to the ½ x 14 BSP threadwith a BSA 12/15, which has thicker sides, for my 5.6x50R - a conversion I don't think was really necessary, by the way, but I was experimentally inclined at the time.

That thread, at .825in., is very similar to the American BSP thread, the 1/2in. being the nominal bore of the pipe it is customarily used on. I trued up the receiver in a drill press, and used a lathe centre in the drill, not under power, to locate the tap and turn it with a wrench. First I enlarged the existing ¾ x 14 threads with the tapered version of the threading tap (not to be confused with a normal taper tap, which is just an extra long chamfer on an ordinary parallel-thread tap. Then I tapped it with the parallel BSP tap.

But I think .875 is a bit much, and larger than you really need with any cartridge suited to the Cadet action. A gunsmith with a machine-shop could counterbore and thread on a lathe, and make it stop short before it weakens the sidewalls of the action. Altering the barrel would make more sense than all that. If you did it with a tap, I think you would have to grind away the chamfer of the tap when the thread is partly completed, so that you could continue it to the bottom of the hole.

I wonder if anyone can verify just what the Winchester thread is? It is usually listed in reference books as .807 to .809, but what matters is the location of the flanks of the thread, and it doesn't matter if someone has measured threads slightly truncated at the crests. If it is really 13/32 x 20, taps for that are available on eBay.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Do you have any wildcat cartridge in your cadets?
How is the 40-65 going, I still covet that one.
I have 17AH, 17/222Rimmed, 218MB, 222Rimmed. Just bought a 12/15 which I hope to make up to a 30/357Max.

The configuration will be heavy barrel and original target sights. 7mm is another option as I'm getting good groups with a military Mauser!

Oh the joy of retirement, casting boolits every other day, shooting on the farm (no range fees)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/7mmMauser_zps50ef668b.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/7mmMauser_zps50ef668b.jpg.html)

[leftiye]

As for top power ctgs that can be used in the cadet, the 30/.357 max (rimmed 300 blackout) has the advantage of the smaller (than .30-30) headsize. 30-30 can stretch cadet actions/chambers if loaded too hot. The smaller ctg will therefore utilize higher pressures safely.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I agree about the .30/.357 Maximum being a fine cartridge for the Cadet, and better for cast bullets than the smaller calibres. I don't suppose a single dummy cartridge and an alteration to a spare .222 die. Making it work is what counts. Even better, perhaps, would be using that 5.6x50R brass (surely more likely to stay on the market than .357 Maximum) to create a version with a longer neck. There is a lot to be said for cast bullets with a longer bearing surface and more lube grooves, and it is better to have none of them exposed, either on the outside or the inside.

[BAGTIC]

Not in the US. 5.6x50R brass is VERY difficult to find here and MUCH more expensive than .357 Maximum. Now that Star--Line has begun making 357 Maximum brass it should be available for as long as a demand exists.

[andym79]

Here in Aus, 5.6x50R is easier to come by than .357 max!

A lot of that would be demand as most shooting here is done with rifles (australian laws make the ownership of hand guns and contender difficult) the 357 max isn't too common.

I have secured 100 cases, but that is all I can get at the moment by calling up many, many gun shops across Australia; and US export rules make getting small volumes in hardly worth the expense. Meanwhile one gunshop in Brisbane is currently holding 1300 cases of 5.6x50R so I would estimate I could get around 20,000 cases of that here if I had the money and will to buy them.

Having said that I guess there might be more like 200,000 357 mag cases in the country so if brass availability the only considieration the .357 mag would win out!

[andym79]

I am still debating which way to go with this, part of me says KISS and get a 32-20 with a deeper throat, or just use bore riding for larger slugs with a 1:10 twist barrel. Like Jeffs 32-20 whisper, that would sure reduce cost of reamers and dies etc!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Here in Aus, 5.6x50R is easier to come by than .357 max!

A lot of that would be demand as most shooting here is done with rifles (australian laws make the ownership of hand guns and contender difficult) the 357 max isn't too common.

I have secured 100 cases, but that is all I can get at the moment by calling up many, many gun shops across Australia; and US export rules make getting small volumes in hardly worth the expense. Meanwhile one gunshop in Brisbane is currently holding 1300 cases of 5.6x50R so I would estimate I could get around 20,000 cases of that here if I had the money and will to buy them.

RWS would be expensive, but about as precise and durable as anyone makes cartridge cases. In the UK, at least a while ago, Sellier and Bellot were much cheaper, and proved quite satisfactory.

I suppose that gunshop got themselves into that situation in the hope that people would buy them to make the Australian .222 Rimmed.

[BigEyeBob]

I wouldn't bother tooling about making 222Rimmed from 5.6x 50R cases when they are readily available from Bruce Bertram . I bought 200 hundred brand new from Bertram just recently when I visited his factory , good quality ,trimmed to correct length and annealed already to go.
I reckon the 222Rimmed is the ducks nuts in the Cadet , with the Hornady 50gn VMax (JWords) bullets it performs exceptionally well .

[andym79]

Hi, guys, still toying with a lot of ideas! :veryconfu:veryconfu:veryconfu

One more crazy question would a 38-55 case shortened to 1.3-1.4" work in the cadet action, in affect a .375 magnum (revolver style round)!

[andym79]

Is a 219 zipper too much for a cadet? Is it a bad combination of base size and pressure?

[samari46]

Wonder why no one has suggested the German 8.15x46r schutzen case/cartridge for a cadet or one of the thicker walled 22 rf actions?. Rimmed and shorter that the 30-30 from which cases can be formed and a goodly selection of 8mm bullets. Frank

[andym79]

Is that pretty much a slightly shorter 32-40?

[barrabruce]

why not just go 30 wesson and use those 357 max cases.
Thinking of that myself.
Have to about a perfect cast bullet case if there is one.

[Texas by God]

Is .38 special available in Australia? Think of the fun that would be. Best,Thomas.

[BigEyeBob]

Yes 38 special is available here ,winchester and eagle brand straight off the shelf .
Have used the Eagle brand in my Rossi 357/38 special 92 clone .