Deer with a rbh and 45 colt

[sac]

I have been lurking for awhile and decided to join, I have been casting for about ten years now and really enjoy it.
Going to start hunting deer with a hand gun, and have a RBH in 45colt and looking for a good load and bullet mold. I was thinking a 255-260 gr. swc would work good. and I would like to get a good 300gr mold some time also and se that the lee gets good reviews.
I forgot to mention that the hunting will be in Iowa and shot from 25 to 100 yards.

Thanks Scott

[DougGuy]

Hey Scott and welcome to the forum!

Boy this will generate some responses, it is only like the most favored straight walled handgun cartridge to load for.

Basically, a LSWC will work, but I think the RF style boolits with the wide flat meplats on the nose work better.

One of the favored heavy for caliber boolits is the Lee C452-300-RF which runs about 320gr lubed and checked, these find much favor over full house charges of H110, but are really overkill for deer. Bear and hog, they are very effective. These would be loaded to the Ruger Only loads found in load manuals, 30,000psi max in a full sized RBH. Lots of recoil, but really more than necessary. I have shot a LOT of these boolits, loaded hot, they are fun for a while but really punishing on the hands in the long run, and again, much more than necessary.

The Lee molds for this boolit are hit or miss as to what size they will drop, and there is/was a group buy for the same boolit in an "improved" format with better crimp grooves, and a better fitting gas check shank. I would vote the improved design over the Lee although they both work.

A boolit I have been shooting recently and very impressed with are the LBT WFN designs, there are three in the 250gr weight, the WFN-PB, the WFN-GC and the shorter fatter almost a straight wadcutter with very slight ogival sides, the OWC-PB. For deer hunting these would be HARD to top, and don't need to be driven beyond 1200fps to be effective.

Cast in 50/50+2% with soft lube (Felix or randyrat tac1), this alloy just barely soft enough you can scratch it with a thumbnail, takes to Ruger's rifling and 1:16" twist like a duck to water, and never have to clean the bore.

There are my recommendations for a heavyweight, and a typical weight in .45 Colt.

L to R: LBT 250gr OWC-PB, LBT 250gr WFN-PB, LBT 250gr WFN-GC

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/250_LBT_TRIO_zpshh2co3gc.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/250_LBT_TRIO_zpshh2co3gc.jpg.html)

320gr Lee C452-300-RF:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/0d3c189d-b085-4d95-a658-1f0f88b78255_zps3f37d14d.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/0d3c189d-b085-4d95-a658-1f0f88b78255_zps3f37d14d.jpg.html)

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Sheeesh, Doug--now that's a crimp!

[sac]

Hey Scott and welcome to the forum!

Boy this will generate some responses, it is only like the most favored straight walled handgun cartridge to load for.

Basically, a LSWC will work, but I think the RF style boolits with the wide flat meplats on the nose work better.

One of the favored heavy for caliber boolits is the Lee C452-300-RF which runs about 320gr lubed and checked, these find much favor over full house charges of H110, but are really overkill for deer. Bear and hog, they are very effective. These would be loaded to the Ruger Only loads found in load manuals, 30,000psi max in a full sized RBH. Lots of recoil, but really more than necessary. I have shot a LOT of these boolits, loaded hot, they are fun for a while but really punishing on the hands in the long run, and again, much more than necessary.

The Lee molds for this boolit are hit or miss as to what size they will drop, and there is/was a group buy for the same boolit in an "improved" format with better crimp grooves, and a better fitting gas check shank. I would vote the improved design over the Lee although they both work.

A boolit I have been shooting recently and very impressed with are the LBT WFN designs, there are three in the 250gr weight, the WFN-PB, the WFN-GC and the shorter fatter almost a straight wadcutter with very slight ogival sides, the OWC-PB. For deer hunting these would be HARD to top, and don't need to be driven beyond 1200fps to be effective.

Cast in 50/50+2% with soft lube (Felix or randyrat tac1), this alloy just barely soft enough you can scratch it with a thumbnail, takes to Ruger's rifling and 1:16" twist like a duck to water, and never have to clean the bore.

There are my recommendations for a heavyweight, and a typical weight in .45 Colt.

L to R: LBT 250gr OWC-PB, LBT 250gr WFN-PB, LBT 250gr WFN-GC

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/250_LBT_TRIO_zpshh2co3gc.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/250_LBT_TRIO_zpshh2co3gc.jpg.html)

320gr Lee C452-300-RF:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/0d3c189d-b085-4d95-a658-1f0f88b78255_zps3f37d14d.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/0d3c189d-b085-4d95-a658-1f0f88b78255_zps3f37d14d.jpg.html)

Thank you Sir, I have been reading about using a softer lube and was wondering if my black powder lube would work. It is very similar to SPG lube.

Thanks again Scott

[DougGuy]

Thank you Sir, I have been reading about using a softer lube and was wondering if my black powder lube would work. It is very similar to SPG lube.

Thanks again Scott

Yes SPG lube works very well on cast boolits in the Rugers for me.


Sheeesh, Doug--now that's a crimp!

This is a collet style crimp. Works VERY good on heavy boolits.

[M-Tecs]

Doug is spot on. In the mid 70's I took two deer with 45 Colt with a Lyman 454190 in a Colt clone. I cast the bullets soft due to the round nose design. Worked well but not as well a the larger meplat bullets that I started using later and Doug is recommending. My point is more than enough power if placed properly.

[Pipefitter]

Just dont expect to recover a fired bullet inside the deer, every one I have shot with a 45LC has had an entry and an exit wound.

[sac]

Another question, are you guys using h110 powder with the LBT bullets only or are you using unique to get velocities to 1000 fps. Or are you running up to 1200 fps. Sorry for the newbie questions.

[dubber123]

Another question, are you guys using h110 powder with the LBT bullets only or are you using unique to get velocities to 1000 fps. Or are you running up to 1200 fps. Sorry for the newbie questions.

H110 is a poor choice for reduced loads, and you can even get into hang fires, misfires or other not fun stuff. If less than full throttle is your goal, something in the 2400 range is good for 80-90% loads, and faster powders such as Unique or Power Pistol fill in the slower velocity role well.

[DougGuy]

^^^^ Second this advice, *do not* download H110 below published starting weights.

2400, LilGun, AA#9, HS-6, Green Dot, are all good for the 1100 ~ 1200fps power band in .45 Colt with a 250gr boolit. I started using the 250gr LBT boolits specifically to target that velocity spread. I can get 1200fps from the .45 Schofield loads in my medium framed Vaquero, and still stay under 23,000psi with 21.5gr H110. This is snappy but not at all as sharp as touching off a full snort of H110 under one of the 300gr RF boolits.

It goes like this.. The lighter the boolit, the faster burning powder you can use, for this you get a higher % of powder burned, and generally have a very efficient load. Heavier booilts need slower powder to avoid over-pressure events. It is not a wise choice to use Unique under the 300gr RF, but 9.5 to 10.0gr Unique under any of the LBT 250gr boolits will get you pretty close to 1100fps maybe a tad more.

You can find loads that use more than 10.0gr Unique under a 250gr boolit that will get you to 1200fps but I have a thing about not loading over 10.0gr in .45 Colt, beyond this Unique can become spiky and unpredictable so I don't go there out of personal preference. If I need to push Unique that close to the edge, it's time to think another powder.

[sac]

Thanks for the info, the only 45 colt that I have loaded is 3f and that's simple for the most part. That's why I came here to get info on the newer hunting boolits and powder. I have been reading a lot by Taffin but he mostly talks about the Keith style bullets with unique. I will get the 250 lbt owc and load it with unique, I think that would work good for white tails, and get one of the 300 gr lees and load it with h110.

[sac]

I do have some Schofield brass, might be fun to try the load you mentioned.

[runfiverun]

the cool thing about the 45 colt is you just ain't gotta overthink it, the government used to actually do useful things back in the olden day's.
they designed the 45 colt and it's boolits to be able to stop a horse.
its original loading was with black powder [@40gr AIRC] and a 250gr round flat boolit cast from 40 parts lead and 1 part tin.
the velocity from the 73 colt was about 900fps.
you can go heavier and you can go faster but you probably won't be shooting too many horses.

I generally use an everyday load consisting of a 250gr rnfp made by lyman [452664] cast from ww's and soft lead 3 parts to 1 on top of 9.3grs of unique.
this is loaded in about 70% of my brass, and get's shot through everything [Ruger's and Rossi's] but my usfa's.
I also have a load consisting of 19.3grs of 2400 which is in the 1625 fps area out of my lever-guns using the same boolit. [which accounts for about 10% of my brass]
it's a bit much for a 200lb deer within 100yds.

my final load is a 165gr or 225gr rnfp on top of 4.8grs of clays which I use to snipe grouse and just poke at stuff in my usfa's.
it basically duplicates a 45 acp type load but at lower 73 colt type pressures.

[sixshot]

Lots of good advice here & you can't go wrong with a Ruger 45, they can do it all. My 260 gr. Keith slug gets 9 grs. of Unique for everyday use & 18.5 grs. of 2400 if I'm mad at something. I've taken deer with both & 2 elk with the second load. Another long time favorite load for many 45 shooters is 20 grs. of 4227 with the same bullet.
If I'm really serious about elk I load a 320 gr. LBT with a heavy charge of H110 & a CCI mag primer, I've taken 2 elk with this load but couldn't see any difference between it & the 260 Keith, I got complete penetration on all 4 elk. Really no need for gas checks although you might get a slight boost in accuracy, maybe. I powder coat everything, pretty much acts like a poor man's gas check. Hard to beat the 45 in a Ruger sixgun & good brass. I never run over 1200 fps & deer, elk & bear hate it.
The grandson's took the horses last week & checked a couple of our waterholes, this was on the trail cam.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/F6E01C55-F6F6-4C6B-BCD9-1AD106CFFECF_zpszb9aarev.png (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/6shot_01/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/F6E01C55-F6F6-4C6B-BCD9-1AD106CFFECF_zpszb9aarev.png.html)
These are big bears, the front one is huge! We'll kill one of them.

Dick

[DougGuy]

I do have some Schofield brass, might be fun to try the load you mentioned.

It would not be as accurate as loading the same boolit in .45Colt brass, as you have unsupported freebore in front of the chamfer. Your BH will shoot much better when the boolit is seated fully into the throat of the cylinder in .45 Colt brass. My .45 Schofield Vaquero has a cylinder that I reamed for .45 Schofield brass so it has no unsupported freebore like shooting .38 Spl in .357 Magnum cylinder.

In Schofield brass, with WLP primers, the 250gr OWC-PB seated to 1.368" COA a charge of 9.0gr Unique is about max, velocity will be around 1050fps. You would NOT want any of these loads straying into a top break S&W or a clone of a top break! This load is SIGNIFICANTLY higher pressure than an old gun or a clone could safely stand.

In .45 Colt brass, with WLP primers, the 250gr OWC-PB seated to 1.555" COA a charge of 10.0gr Unique is about max, velocity will be around 1050fps.

Beyond these max suggested weights of Unique, little is gained in velocity before pressure climbs rapidly. This is why I suggest looking for a slower powder if you want to push the 250gr closer to 1200fps.

Hodgdon calls for 25.7gr H110 as a minumum starting weight in .45 Colt with the 250gr XTP bullet, citing 27,000cups (copper units) and a max of 26.5gr citing 29,800cups of pressure. Velocities listed are 1398fps and 1455fps respectively. These are at the TOP of the pressure ceiling for the Ruger Only loads in a BH or original large framed Vaquero.

Unique runs out of headroom falling short at getting into that 1170 ~ 1200fps sweet spot and H110 even at the starting loads exceeds it.

Save the H110 loads for bear and hog. Find something between Unique and H110 for your hunting loads, you will be much happier shooting them and may be more accurate, the gun will take to them better, and the deer won't know any difference.

23.0gr LilGun would be a decent starting point, 25.0gr max. You may likely drop below 23.0gr to 22.0gr and be okay because (and THIS is IMPORTANT!) the 250gr OWC-PB sits low in the case, .325" of the boolit sits below the case mouth. Although the boolit weights are the same as the 250gr XTP listed on the Hodgdon data, it is the USER'S RESPONSIBILITY to measure the two boolits, and see if the base of one sits lower in the case than the base of the boolit they use in their published data, you MUST compensate load data to accommodate the different case capacity below the boolit! Failure to do this can be disastrous! You probably already know this but you cannot just arbitrarily use the boolit weights interchangeably, you must take into account differences in the overall COA and differences in the volume of the case below the seated boolit.

The Hodgdon COA for their 250gr XTP is listed as 1.600" the COA using 1.285" .45 Colt brass and the 250gr LBT OWC-PB is 1.555" a difference of .045" which if you are loading cowboy loads, or target loads, 8.0gr of Unique or so, isn't a big deal. However when you get into the Ruger Only levels and 30,000psi pressures, .045" is a BIG DEAL, and must be compensated for to avoid an over-pressure event.

I would look into LilGun, 2400, AA#9, Herco and also HS-6 are just slow enough compared to Unique to work for you.

[sac]

Thank you, this is the kind of info that I have been looking for. I have been reloading for 30 + years and have always stayed in the middle of the load data except for my short stint with a uspsa open gun in 38 super loaded beyond any load data.
After looking at the burn rate chart and looking at Hodgdon load data, has anyone tried longshot? I have some and it looks in the right burn rate for the velocity I'm looking for.

[DougGuy]

I haven't used longshot but it is marginally faster than HS-6 and seems to be slightly lower pressure. Looks like it would be very much worth a try with the OWC-PB boolit.

Veral Smith says these OWC-PB wadcutters are pretty accurate at supersonic velocities. Next deer hunt I take a pistol on will be the 250gr OWC-PB over 21.5gr H110 in my .45 Schofield Vaquero.

Veral also writes in his book about the "pressure wave" created by the wide meplat boolit designs and credits this pressure wave with creating a significant wound channel and is pretty specific about not driving it to maximum velocities as this presents a less effective pressure wave and that the sweet spot from what I could gather is 1180 ~ 1200fps. I admit I have not read his book, but I got this straight from Veral over the phone.

[rodwha]

I'm curious why not a more standard velocity around 1000 fps with a 250 grn bullet? They've done quite well on medium game for a very long time.

Kaido's 255 grn version of the Lee bullet cast about 7-10 BHN and traveling around 900 fps easily travels nose to tail through an adult hog.

[sac]

I'm curious why not a more standard velocity around 1000 fps with a 250 grn bullet? They've done quite well on medium game for a very long time.

Kaido's 255 grn version of the Lee bullet cast about 7-10 BHN and traveling around 900 fps easily travels nose to tail through an adult hog.

That's what I came to this forum for, was to find out what is working for them to humanly take deer. This is the kind of info I'm looking for, what powder are you using?

[rodwha]

I haven't used a handgun to hunt with and don't have a .45 Colt. However I do have a Ruger Old Army and reproduction Remington New Model Army (technically .45 caliber). I looked into getting .45 Colt (standard level 400+ ft/lbs) as I knew it has had a good reputation for a very long time.

Without maxing out on the black powder charges I am likely getting 450-500 ft/lbs with a 195 grn WFN bullet from my Ruger and about 350-425 ft/lbs with my Remington using my 170 or 195 grn bullets.

But the thing is that these black powder percussion pistols do rather well with a ~140 grn ball that will likely give a complete passthrough on a broadside deer. I just prefer a wider meplat with a bit more mass as I also hunt hogs, though I've yet to purchase my 245 grn version from Accurate Molds.

Elmer Keith also spoke of a .44 Dragoon used to kill Grizzlies with head shots from a tree using a ball. It also was used to kill buffalo by riding next to them and shooting them through the vitals.

One big difference is that these soft lead projectiles don't usually expand as readily or as large as a modern hollow point. But then handgun hog hunters typically use a hard cast lead WFN bullet in a large caliber that doesn't expand at all, but certainly kills hogs quite well.

Even the .44 Spl did well enough with the right bullet and load.

[Wolfer]

I've taken several missouri whitetail with a 45 colt. All with 245/255 gr boolits and 1 with a 250 gr nosler.
All were pushed to around 1000 fps by anywhere from 8.5 to 10 gr of unique.
My gun is a new vaquero and I don't push it any harder than that. My experience has not led me to believe I needed to. Where I hunt its brushy and 30 yd shots are on the long side. At longer ranges added velocity may certainly help with placement.

I started with the Lee 255 RF. My most accurate boolit so far. At 950/970 fps penatration is not an issue. I've never shot a deer completely lengthwise but have done some hard raking shots. The only recovered boolit I have I dug out of the ground behind the coyote it went through.

At this velocity it pretty much just cuts a 45 cal hole. Blood trails were skimpy but not very long. I nearly always saw them go down.

Wanting a little bigger exit wound I went to a 452-429 Keith and had a small HP put in one cavity. This definitely gets me a better blood trail if it exits. It tends to not exit on raking shots but the only broadside it didn't was a very large doe and it broke both shoulders and bulged the hide on the far side. No tracking required.

This year I am trying the NOE version 255 RF with a cup HP. Initial testing shows it not to get as big so I'm hoping for good accuracy and penatration with a slightly larger exit hole. Time will tell.

One of the things I like best about the 45 colt and the standard or just above loadings with a heavy RF boolit is its ability to take small game with out meat damage but still able to handle much larger game with considerable authority.

Side note. I have many 45 cal molds including the Lee 300 gr. My gun will not stabilize it at velocities I'm comfortable with.

[DougGuy]

Side note. I have many 45 cal molds including the Lee 300 gr. My gun will not stabilize it at velocities I'm comfortable with.

Correct. Your Vaquero have the 3 digit prefix in the serial number? It is only safe to 23,000psi and not safe with the 30,000psi Ruger Only loads that *will* stabilize the Lee 300 RF.

I am having great luck with the trio of LBT WFN boolits in my New Vaquero that I converted the .45 ACP cylinder to .45 Schofield. I can get them to 1200fps and still stay under the 23,000psi pressure ceiling and they are not nearly as scary as the full house Ruger Only loads. If I can do it in Schofield brass, the top end of the "tier 2" loads as Brian Pearce calls them is even easier to do in .45 Colt brass.

It was asked earlier why not 1,000fps, why the extra velocity? Deer aren't THAT hard to kill, well, here is one *very good* reason to push the WFN to 1150 ~ 1200fps, because it LIKES it there and shoots well.

[rodwha]

It was asked earlier why not 1,000fps, why the extra velocity? Deer aren't THAT hard to kill, well, here is one *very good* reason to push the WFN to 1150 ~ 1200fps, because it LIKES it there and shoots well.

Well, not exactly. To my thinking a bullet that will certainly exit doesn't really need to go any faster unless it were designed to expand rapidly.

I'm curious the comparison of the bullets you speak of doing much better traveling ~200 fps faster. I've seen how Kaido's 240 and 255 grn version of Lee's 255 grn bullet do rather well under 1000 fps. I don't know of anyone using them beyond maybe 25 yds and so it's possible the lower velocity wouldn't be so effective at 50 yds or more for those who are that good.

[sac]

I looked on LBT's web site and don't see the OWC-PB mold on the web site. do you have to call?

[rodwha]

If all else fails or it is of interest to you look at AccurateMolds.com You can order a current or create your own (no additional cost), which is what I did for my cap and ball WFN bullets.

[Drm50]

My favorite deer pistol is a S&W m25-83/8". I have a 6" and a 71/2" BH. I also have WC, SWC &
RnFp molds. I found all three do the best with 255 RnFp / Unique at 850 fps. The S&Ws also
shoot the 242g WC very well at these velocities. I have 270 & 300 gr SWC molds, they don't give
me the accuracy of the RNFP. The 255RNFP shoots so well I have never fired a jacketed bullet
since I started using them. I did shot one deer with a 242WC, because I grabbed the wrong ammo. Deer didn't complain- it was dead. I don't carry 41 or 44 anymore for deer hunting, the
45 does it no problem.

[Blackwater]

A buddy of mine was given a Colt SAA when he was 11, IIRC, and he grew up in the swamps, shooting everything from squirrels, coons, gators, deer and hogs with it, and mostly, at least when he was very young, he used BP loads from bulk 25 lb. kegs. He'd load up 5 or more, and sally forth, never complaining about the results. Mostly, he used factory RNFP's with the little flat tip. But his grandad taught him how to shoot and hit what he was aiming at, and WHERE to put those bullets, and nothing ever went far with those old BP loads and the RNFP factory type bullets. It's really all in where you hit 'em far more than what you hit them with. Since, he's done a lot of cropping on permits for local farmers and he's used everything that was at hand at the time, from .22 LR pistols (revolvers and autos) to .375 H&H (only once!) and he's never had a problem killing deer. He just keeps his shots and placement commensurate with what he's shooting. And it's really just that simple. Me? I'm a lover of overkill, but I don't kid myself about why I'm shooting what I'm shooting. And mostly, it's just tradition. I have 6 '06's now! One's an old pre-A3 '03 Sfpld. that I made the stock for, and it's my favorite. But do I need all that? Nope. I just LIKE shooting it.

And nobody I've ever known who has used the LC and could shoot has ever complained about the results. Only .45 I've ever heard complaints of is the ACP and then, only when using 230 gr. hardball. Even it worked fair, but was nowhere near as definitive as a flat nosed bullet from the same gun. Some HP's in that caliber have in the past been penetration challenged. Cast? Never!

My friend is now rather recoil challenged due to an old spinal cord injury (tearing of the sheath in the neck area), and otherwise health challenged, and guess what his choice for back in the woods is? A Bkhk .45 LC 4 5/8" with cast 250's, eihter RNFP's with sizable flat or SWC's, and he isn't particular which is in stock these days, he just goes forth with whatever's available. He's recently worked up some 1,000 fps loads with the 200 SWC's and he's killed enough deer with those to know they'll do fine. The gun seems to like them even better (for accuracy) than the 250's, and the recoil seems to be a bit less. And they'll stack them on top of each other as long as you want to keep shooting.

I went with the .44 Spec. since I had plenty of molds in that caliber, just as a convenience. I figured it'd save me some $$$, but I've long wanted another LC. The old model Ruger I had wasn't accurate, and I suspect it was just a case of mismatched throats and barrel, and now I believe I could have fixed that gun. Loved it, but let it go because there's no place here for guns that won't shoot well. All us gun guys have sob stories of the jewels we let get away, and that's one of mine. I wish I knew where that gun is now!

The old LC has been doing splendid work on everything that even hints at being susceptible to its capabilities, and there've been very, very few complainers. Some just want more because they can get it. Others just can't shoot. But none really NEED any more than the old LC. It just does what a gun is supposed to do, and it's rather pleasant about the doing of it. What more could a man ask for, really?

[tdoyka]

i'm still struggling if i want a ruger blackhawk in 45 colt or a snider enfield mark ll in 577. but anyway, in the 45 colt why not use a 270gr saa?

45 Colt, RCBS 82092, 270gr, SAA - Montana Bullet Works (https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/45-colt-rcbs-82092-270gr-saa/)

[rodwha]

Looks like a great bullet!

I've had Accurate make me a similar bullet with wider driving bands that weighs 285 grns, but I've not been able to work with it in my Ruger.

[DougGuy]

i'm still struggling if i want a ruger blackhawk in 45 colt or a snider enfield mark ll in 577. but anyway, in the 45 colt why not use a 270gr saa?

45 Colt, RCBS 82092, 270gr, SAA - Montana Bullet Works (https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/45-colt-rcbs-82092-270gr-saa/)

I got away from K type LSWC designs when I recut the forcing cones in my Rugers to 11 degrees, the sides of the WFN boolits are near bouts parallel and there is a gentler less deforming transition from the cylinder thoat into the bore whereas the K type you have this square front driving band that if it hits the forcing cone it wipes 1/3 of that front band away before it makes it into the bore. The wider meplat IMO does more damage than the smaller K type meplat, and this is why Veral designed those little oilcans. They do quite well in a deer and no HP needed.

Scott just call Veral at LBT and leave him a message. It might take a day or two but he will call you.

At 25-40yds most hunters wouldn't know the difference and the deer sure won't. The paradox is that you have all these different opinions, too many for one person to load ammo and create a scenario where each opinion would be tested and then results posted. A guy comes looking for an all around good boolit for deer, I am going to tell him what works best IMO. Not knocking anyone else but by the time these threads run their course, many newbs are totally lost as to which direction to turn, even seasoned reloaders and hunters have to second guess much of the information implied.

[rodwha]

I got away from K type LSWC designs when I recut the forcing cones in my Rugers to 11 degrees, the sides of the WFN boolits are near bouts parallel and there is a gentler less deforming transition from the cylinder thoat into the bore whereas the K type you have this square front driving band that if it hits the forcing cone it wipes 1/3 of that front band away before it makes it into the bore. The wider meplat IMO does more damage than the smaller K type meplat, and this is why Veral designed those little oilcans. They do quite well in a deer and no HP needed.

Scott just call Veral at LBT and leave him a message. It might take a day or two but he will call you.

At 25-40yds most hunters wouldn't know the difference and the deer sure won't. The paradox is that you have all these different opinions, too many for one person to load ammo and create a scenario where each opinion would be tested and then results posted. A guy comes looking for an all around good boolit for deer, I am going to tell him what works best IMO. Not knocking anyone else but by the time these threads run their course, many newbs are totally lost as to which direction to turn, even seasoned reloaders and hunters have to second guess much of the information implied.

And I'm one of those. I have no firsthand experience nor have been with people who handgun hunt (my old boss has shot a small rattle snake with his .357 in the head).

And so I'm curious what ~1200 fps does better that <1000 fps doesn't.

[DougGuy]

And I'm one of those. I have no firsthand experience nor have been with people who handgun hunt (my old boss has shot a small rattle snake with his .357 in the head).

And so I'm curious what ~1200 fps does better that <1000 fps doesn't.

More damage. More prominent wound channel, more likely to fully penetrate even after hitting bone, any expansion will be greater at 1200fps than at 1000fps, MANY heavy boolits in .44 and .45 won't stabilize at a slower velocity because they don't get enough spin. The boolit MUST have spin to stabilize. This will make groups open considerably even at 25yds if the boolit doesn't gain enough spin. Plus it gets to the target before the sound gets to the target's ears. A deer or other game on high alert can react and move in a SURPRISINGLY quick fashion. 1200fps is supersonic. 1000fps is not. There isn't much time there but if the sound gets to their ears first, odd things can happen You might get a kick out of this one..

I was sitting at near dusk, the hour where shadows play tricks on your eyes, back to a fence post watching a paddock hoping a deer would cross. Saw something coming across, the scope gathered enough light to see it was the farm cat headed home. Shortly after, something else came across, run a bit then stop and sniff, run a bit, etc. It was a fox, stalking the kitty cat. I put the crosshairs on him and followed him thinking "buddy you ain't getting no pu$$y tonite son, not the farm cat anyhow."

He got into a bare dirt spot with a cowpie on one side and stopped to sniff when I laid into him with the .308 M77. Had the scope zeroed on his shoulder, the very instant the shot broke, he looked up in my direction and saw the muzzle blast. I never even saw him run! I never even saw his shadow! He kicked the afterburner in and was GONE! I walked the 400' to where he had been, laid my head down on the boolit strike in the dirt, and gauged the height where the fox had been standing. The shot was true, I didn't miss. It took slightly more than 1/6th of a second for the boolit to travel 400' and in that time, he was quick enough to react and outrun a 180gr boolit.

I doubt a deer could move that fast, but if one can jump a bowstring at 20yds they can sure jump enough to spoil a shot at 40yds from a revolver. I like the boolit to arrive ahead of the sound.

[rodwha]

I can certainly understand how more can/is viewed as good. I felt the same way viewing the .44 Mag as the most efficient (cost wise) cartridge giving the capability of delivering the oomph well out to beyond further than I could accurately shoot (and having a compatible carbine round).

Quite frankly I've considered buying an aftermarket cylinder for my Ruger giving me the ability to achieve ~700 ft/lbs or so. But I truly wonder what the difference would really be, and if what my OEM cylinder can deliver is more than adequate I've wonders if it's needed/wanted.

I'm curious what the difference is that you've noticed. You mentioned more damage and a more pronounced Lund channel. What are we talking about? Obviously it's visually noticeable, but in what way?

[DougGuy]

That part would be something you just have to shoot a few with a WFN to see firsthand and you wouldn't likely go back. They are just as dead when they go down, but the less energy the less wound channel they go farther before they die. 44man can show some pics of deer shot with these style boolits, although he pushes them more than I want to push mine.

The ones I have taken with the .44 magnum have had holes in the chest you could drop a baseball through. (Not REALLY but it sure looked that way!) They went about 5 yards no more. Most have been neck shots and dropped where they stood.

I have yet to take game with these WFN boolits I have been testing in the medium framed Vaquero but 700ft/lbs is easily doable in Schofield brass, under the 23,000psi pressure ceiling of the gun. Should be even easier to do in .45 Colt brass, you don't need a special cylinder at all, just have yours throated to .4525" and roll with it.

Example: 45 Colt, 250 gr @ 1250 fps, Momentum = 44.6 lb-f/s – Muzzle Energy = 868 ft lbs

What Ruger do you have, and is it a 2 or 3 digit prefix in the serial?

[shoot-n-lead]

I doubt a deer could move that fast, but if one can jump a bowstring at 20yds they can sure jump enough to spoil a shot at 40yds from a revolver. I like the boolit to arrive ahead of the sound.

A bullet at 1000fps is 3x as fast as an arrow.

If a shot is fouled on a deer at 40yds...999 times out of 1000...the shooter will be responsible, not the speed of the bullet.

[rodwha]

My Ruger is a percussion Old Army. The factory cylinder with higher performance powders achieves ~500 ft/lbs of energy whereas the ClassicBallistixs cylinders can achieve no less than another 100 ft/lbs as the chambers (cylinders) are deeper.

I eventually went to neck shooting deer with the .270 Win but now that I have a .50 cal muzzleloader I'm concerned the effects won't be the same as I highly doubt I'd get quite the hydrostatic shock.

[DougGuy]

A bullet at 1000fps is 3x as fast as an arrow.

If a shot is fouled on a deer at 40yds...999 times out of 1000...the shooter will be responsible, not the speed of the bullet.

Likely very true but at 1000fps, it takes .08333 or 1/12th of a second for a boolit to go 40yds. The fox I mentioned earlier in this thread had enough time to completely evade the boolit strike from a standstill in only .1666666 or 1/6th of a second. Just sayin'

Well heck rodwha, all this talk is a good excuse for you to bring home a New Vaquero or a New Model Blackhawk Flattop in .45 Colt!

[rodwha]

Quick movement is why, when shooting for the neck of a deer, I always targeted the first third from the body as it doesn't move so quickly.

[sixshot]

DougGuy nailed it on the velocity with the WFN if you want to stabilize it. Going slower & shooting very far you will see the difference real quick most times.
Neck shooting is very deadly & very risky, it can work but it can also fail very badly in an instant. Everyone has a different opinion on it but especially with a sixgun its really taking a chance. Not much rib meat on a deer & a much bigger kill area, just my opinion.

Dick

[rodwha]

I doubt I'd try a neck shot with a revolver, though I also haven't proven to myself I could do so outside of 25 yds offhand. I'm not quite a pistolero. Maybe with a good rest, which is what I'd look to do if it were a primary weapon.

I made a short for weight 285 grn WFN bullet for my pistol but I'm not so sure I can get to 850 fps with it. Another reason for the deeper chambers of the aftermarket cylinder...

[runfiverun]

one other thing you have to consider at the 1,000-1,200 fps area is the way the boolit buffers into and out of the speed of sound barrier.
hovering just over it can kill you when things slow down just that [] much.
couple that with a marginally stabilized boolit and things will go astray right at a predictable point. [like 78 yds]

[sac]

one other thing you have to consider at the 1,000-1,200 fps area is the way the boolit buffers into and out of the speed of sound barrier.
hovering just over it can kill you when things slow down just that [] much.
couple that with a marginally stabilized boolit and things will go astray right at a predictable point. [like 78 yds]
Good point, and as stated earlier by Doug being a newbie to handgun hunting its a bit overwhelming as to bullet choices. Makes me think I will start with a good Keith design like the RCBS shown earlier, than move to one of the LBT molds later. I do love to do load development for my firearms.

[tdoyka]

I got away from K type LSWC designs when I recut the forcing cones in my Rugers to 11 degrees, the sides of the WFN boolits are near bouts parallel and there is a gentler less deforming transition from the cylinder thoat into the bore whereas the K type you have this square front driving band that if it hits the forcing cone it wipes 1/3 of that front band away before it makes it into the bore. The wider meplat IMO does more damage than the smaller K type meplat, and this is why Veral designed those little oilcans. They do quite well in a deer and no HP needed.

Scott just call Veral at LBT and leave him a message. It might take a day or two but he will call you.

At 25-40yds most hunters wouldn't know the difference and the deer sure won't. The paradox is that you have all these different opinions, too many for one person to load ammo and create a scenario where each opinion would be tested and then results posted. A guy comes looking for an all around good boolit for deer, I am going to tell him what works best IMO. Not knocking anyone else but by the time these threads run their course, many newbs are totally lost as to which direction to turn, even seasoned reloaders and hunters have to second guess much of the information implied.

thanks!!!

i'm considered a newb since i don't really have much time in cast boolits.:D if they where jacketed bullets, i would be a seasoned kinda guy:lol::kidding:.

[gunseller]

It has been awhile sense I have posted but sense this is an Iowa question and I shoot deer in SW Iowa with a 45 Colt as well as others I will give my thoughts. The main bullet I use is a 250 grain SWC cast out of WW over 18 grains of 2400. I get better accuracy out of 2400 then H110. The other bullet I use is one that weights 260 grains when cast from WW ,again, over 18 grains of 2400. It is out of an 1884 mold so it is a rnfp. The reason for more speed is also to be flatter at longer range. With the last bullet I shot a deer at 205 steps. The bullet went in one side and out the other and the deer went down, no steps.
Steve

[TXGunNut]

I'm a fan of the WFN hunting boolit myself. Sometimes you can hear that meplat smack the critter, hunters in other stands can always tell when I connect with a deer or hog from the boom-smack of my big heavy WFN's. OTOH the 45 Colt is a very forgiving cartridge so at close range on most deer with almost any reasonable load it will put meat in the freezer. It's just good sportsmanship to try to deliver the quickest, most humane kill and I think a WFN over a stiff load of 296 will deliver that quite well.

[BrentD]

gunseller, I"m an Iowa hunter but I use muzzleloaders, long barreled ones. Can you summarize what the rules might be for percussion revolvers in Iowa? Are they late season legal (late Dec/Jan) and is there a minimum energy issue with them? My curiosity is up for some reason.

[sac]

gunseller, I"m an Iowa hunter but I use muzzleloaders, long barreled ones. Can you summarize what the rules might be for percussion revolvers in Iowa? Are they late season legal (late Dec/Jan) and is there a minimum energy issue with them? My curiosity is up for some reason.
From the Iowa's DNR currant regulations Muzzleloaders
:
Flintlock or percussion cap
muzzleloading rifles or muskets between .44
and .775 caliber shooting single projectiles;
muzzleloading pistols .44 caliber or larger with a
minimum barrel length of 4 inches and no shoul
der
stock or long barrel modifications.
Muzzleloaders
equipped with electronic ignition are
not allowed
. There are no restrictions on in-line
or disk-type muzzleloaders. Riflescopes may
also be used.

From the the way I read it and have always understood you can only use a single shot muzzle loader.

[OS OK]

175491

"OMG!...that's what the .45 Colt was meant to be...I only wish that my wimpy little Colt SAA could digest these!
This will knock them down, dress them out and come to a rolling stop in the next county!"

[BrentD]

Sac,
You might be right. Years ago, I hunted with a Joseph Lang percussion double, and I thought I was legal. I took the "single projectile" to mean "no buckshot". And muzzleloaders simply had to be loaded from the muzzle.

I don't know what the handgun restrictions are for Iowa except I remember they had to be straight cases, no bottlenecks. But I don't recall if there was a minimum power or caliber. I normally us a .54 flintlock or, occasionally, a .45 fast-twist underhammer. But something like a percussion revolver at 10 yds or so, seems interesting for some reason I don't really understand.

[sac]

Sac,
You might be right. Years ago, I hunted with a Joseph Lang percussion double, and I thought I was legal. I took the "single projectile" to mean "no buckshot". And muzzleloaders simply had to be loaded from the muzzle.

I don't know what the handgun restrictions are for Iowa except I remember they had to be straight cases, no bottlenecks. But I don't recall if there was a minimum power or caliber. I normally us a .54 flintlock or, occasionally, a .45 fast-twist underhammer. But something like a percussion revolver at 10 yds or so, seems interesting for some reason I don't really understand.

.357 is the minimum and 4 inch barrel. Never understood why you can use a 45-70 in a t/c contender but not in a rifle, Iowa and its dumb firearms laws.

[rodwha]

But something like a percussion revolver at 10 yds or so, seems interesting for some reason I don't really understand.

The stainless percussion revolver is the Ruger Old Army. I've found its more accurate charge to be 35 grns of 3F Olde Eynsford black powder or Triple 7 substitute powder. With my 195 grn WFN bullet that I had Tom create for me at Accurate Molds it is pushing about 450-500 ft/lbs according to similar loads shot across a chrony. This ought to be bad medicine on medium game, though I've also had Tom create me a similar bullet that weighs 245 grns intended for hogs.

http://i65.tinypic.com/28hd7rp.jpg

The bullet left of center is my 195 grn version. It's roughly the length of the ball so as not to take up precious powder capacity, especially in the pistol next to it (Remington New Model Army), which holds a little less powder (accurate load is 30 grns of same powder producing about 350-400 ft/lbs).

http://i64.tinypic.com/20rsaw1.jpg

I can't wait to put the whack on something with it!

[BrentD]

That Ruger should be fine for any deer at reasonable ranges. I've got a colt repro .44 with the 7" barrel. It suits my hand very well, unlike any other revolver I own or have shot. So MAYBE I can hit a paper plate at 10 yds or so. With a round ball and maybe 30+ grs of 3f swiss, that should work. But I have yet to prove to myself I'm capable.

I do like that 195 br bullet. The big one would be ideal for the Ruger, but the smaller one would be okay in a Colt Army I would think.

[Wolfer]

175519
Here are two deer I killed the same day. One in the morning and one in the afternoon. Both with the 58 rem repro. 452-200 RF Lee cast of pure lead, all the FFFg I could get in the cylinder. Around 700 fps. Frankly I couldent tell any difference in the final result from deer shot with my 45 colt at a much higher power level.

[BrentD]

I'm impressed, Wolfer

[rodwha]

That Ruger should be fine for any deer at reasonable ranges. I've got a colt repro .44 with the 7" barrel. It suits my hand very well, unlike any other revolver I own or have shot. So MAYBE I can hit a paper plate at 10 yds or so. With a round ball and maybe 30+ grs of 3f swiss, that should work. But I have yet to prove to myself I'm capable.

I do like that 195 br bullet. The big one would be ideal for the Ruger, but the smaller one would be okay in a Colt Army I would think.

With my ROA I can get 3-3.5" at 15 yds with something like a Weaver stance, and 3.5-4" with my Remington. You should be shot to do much better than plate.

The 195 and even 170 grn (far right) both do rather well. Both guns give similar enough groups with those and a ball.

The 285 grn bullet was designed specifically for my Ruger as its made with modern gun steel and can handle much higher pressures. As it takes up a lot of powder capacity I gave it longer driving bands to increase pressures to get the velocity up enough to make it useful. A guy loaded his ASM Walker with that bullet and 52 grns of Pyrodex P and ruptured the chamber.

We were looking at moving to VA and so black bears may have been on the menu so ultimate penetration was called for. However we did not move there. Never know when something large may be hunted one day...

I've been considering having my Ruger chambers deepened or getting a ClassicBallistix cylinder. Might get above 600 ft/lbs with that.

[SSGOldfart]

Just dont expect to recover a fired bullet inside the deer, every one I have shot with a 45LC has had an entry and an exit wound.
Same here through and through,I've tried backing down a good bit,even my black powder load went through and through, all were under a 100 yards when shot,only one had to be tracked for about 50 yards.

[44man]

If anyone thinks a .45 Colt will do anything ---- You might be right, wonderful caliber. Yet like doug says, more velocity is needed for two things, stability with heavy boolits and imparted energy.
ME figures do not tell the tale at all. Penetration can be amazing but alone is not enough.
I have the old Vaquero and shoot heavy, 300 to 335 gr with 21.5 gr of 296. That gives me around 1160 fps but they spray and pray if shot slow. Even though they are not that fast, results on deer have been great.
To shoot slower I would go to a boolit in the 250 to 260 range, still will kill but there is a difference in damage with huge amounts of blood trails from faster.
Please don't use ME figures. They lead you astray. My .500 JRH shows 1781 foot pounds. A too hard boolit pokes a hole with no blood trail. No energy is left behind where needed.
At 900 fps, it just takes a different boolit construction. You need to think of a FMJ from an 06 with maybe 2612 foot pounds. Would you hunt deer with a FMJ?
I have shot many deer with my Ruger OA and round balls. They die very fast and bone is broken without finding a ball inside. ME is sad but darn the gun will kill.
Throw the book away with all the numbers. ANYTHING works if just done right.
I have always considered a pure ball or boolit the most devastating projectile ever but I can't shoot them from a modern revolver with smokeless and hit. But I can make a boolit work. I prefer to work on the nose.
Most deer I have killed were with either a bow or a .45 flint lock with a RB. Then a .50 and a .54 Hawken.
Adjust the boolit for the .45 like any other caliber and make jerky.

[rodwha]

I like to use ME figures merely to compare to known modern ammo. ME is not the be all end all. In this instance it shows that with the chosen powder I am achieving no less than the standard .45 Colt ammo.

When I first got my ROA I looked into what could be expected. Everyone told me it was pathetic and wouldn't reach 300 ft/lbs and was akin to using a .38 Spl. But then I found people who actually hunted with it and repros, but used more energetic powders (Swiss and Triple 7, and now Olde Eynsford) and were getting no less than 400 ft/lbs. Many of the other powders indeed produce the weaker .38 Spl power levels, and so I include those figures to show that it's certainly not what many believe it to be. How can one argue about .45 Colt power levels being anemic and inhumane?

[44man]

Can't argue at all. Seeing what both do I sure agree.
I am old and funny and will take a C&B or old ML any day. The OA will rival a .44 mag and a .54 will rival a .300 Weatherby except for distance.
I can't come to terms with an inline. I just can't wrap my head around the things. I prefer a .45 Colt and even with BP--WHO SAID IT SUCKS? I will eat good meat.Back straps on the grill!
The Colt is OLD but like a 45-70, nobody made better.
I was told repeatably my .45 flint lock was not enough for deer. Those guys ate boiled shoe leather.

[rodwha]

I was told repeatably my .45 flint lock was not enough for deer. Those guys ate boiled shoe leather.

:wink:

Prior to the move west a .40 caliber rifle was rather large, though the distance was typically quite short.

I'm not fond of inlines either. I prefer the looks of a cap or flintlock myself.

[sac]

Same here. To me the inlines are just another rifle, not a muzzle loader

[rodwha]

Indeed, which is funny as my father, who had been telling me for years about BP guns, and where I got my ROA (first BP gun) seems to like them. Go figure...

The only thing I find interesting is the amount of powder they can handle as I've been wanting a muzzleloader to shoot point blank out to 200 yds to top with a Malcolm scope. Alas it seems just out of reach with the types that hold my fancy and don't cost thousands.

[DougGuy]

Thread drift fellas! So far this has been a really good thread about hunting deer with the .45 Colt, let's preserve it as such. Years from now anyone who happens to type in "hunting deer with .45 Colt" in a Google search will be directed to this thread..

[35 Whelen]

Welcome to the forum, sac.

I understand your being overwhelmed with bullet choices, but I wouldn't overthink it. SWC or WFN will both work and there's no such thing as "deader".


Since you'll probably be do more shooting, than shooting of deer, I'd start with a basic bullet style such as the Lyman 454424, a 255 gr. SWC and a couple of pounds of Unique. Loaded with anywhere from 8.0 - 10.0 grs. in your big Ruger, you'll be set to take any deer that walks the face of God's green earth.

I've killed a few deer and a hog with .44 Specials loaded with Keith SWC's running 1000 fps and less, and they all died promptly, but admit to having killed only two head of game with a 45 Colt. Last year I took a spike and a javelina back behind the house. The bullet was cast from a MiHec 45-270 SAA HP mould. IMHO this bullet, designed by Dave Scovill of Handloader and Rifle magazines and produced by RCBS, is the quintessential hunting bullet for the 45 Colt. The MiHec version comes with three styles of HP pins and I was using the large one which netted a bullet weight of about 263 grs. as cast from a fairly soft alloy of around 8.5 Bhn.

Here's what they look like starting with the small HP pin, then the penta, then the large.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Cast%20bullets/Miha%2045-270%20SM%20HP_zps1uzxiusg.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Cast%20bullets/Miha%2045-270%20SM%20HP_zps1uzxiusg.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Cast%20bullets/Miha%2045-270%20penta%20hp_zpsk9srkloi.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Cast%20bullets/Miha%2045-270%20penta%20hp_zpsk9srkloi.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Cast%20bullets/Miha%2045-270%20lghp_zpspt1mgccz.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Cast%20bullets/Miha%2045-270%20lghp_zpspt1mgccz.jpg.html)

Seated over 13.0 grs. of Blue Dot, velocity was a little over 1000 fps and both animals were taken at just under 50 yds. with a 5 1/2" Uberti Bisley.

With the javelina, I don't think there was any expansion likely due to insufficient resistance to the bullet... in other words the animal was too small.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/Javelina_zpsxkim0uvo.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Hunting/Javelina_zpsxkim0uvo.jpg.html)

I'd been waiting for this buck all season and was never there at the right time. He finally came through one frosty morning toward the end of season. The shot hit him high in the shoulder and he dropped on the spot as the impact was near the spine. The bullet stopped under the hide on the off side.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/Spike%20with%2045%20Colt-%20reduced_zpsqwppzshz.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Hunting/Spike%20with%2045%20Colt-%20reduced_zpsqwppzshz.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/Bullet%20from%20Spike_zps6m6ogv41.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Hunting/Bullet%20from%20Spike_zps6m6ogv41.jpg.html)

I was really pleased to see such beautiful expansion, but didn't care at all for the limited penetration, so I don't see the use of HP's in my future!

Another mould that's produced superb results for me is the RCBS 45-255-SWC. Mine actually drops bullets in the 262 gr. range. Maybe I've just been lucky, but bullets from the handful of RCBS moulds I own have produced more consistently good results than any of my others that include NOE, Accurate, MiHec and Lyman. IMHO they're one of the best moulds, and best values in moulds, there are out there. Bullets from the RCBS mould have produced some really nice accuracy for me.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Uberti%20Bisleys/Bisley%2025%20yds._zpsldmaovjz.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Uberti%20Bisleys/Bisley%2025%20yds._zpsldmaovjz.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Uberti%20Bisleys/Bisley%2050%20yds._zpsrdc7mqxk.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Uberti%20Bisleys/Bisley%2050%20yds._zpsrdc7mqxk.jpg.html)

Regardless of what bullet you choose, I personally wouldn't worry about running it much over 1000 fps, unless you just want to. What most folks don't realize is these big ol' bullets give up velocity very grudgingly. Your typical 255-260 gr. .45 caliber SWC started off at 1000 fps is still trucking along at well over 900 fps at 100 yds.

So there you are, more information over which to mull!

Good luck,

35W

[white eagle]

I really like the 45 colt cartridge its possibilities are vast
I have had a few revo's chambered for that cal and I personally could never get
any decent kind of accuracy out of any of them (3 Different Ruger's)
I do like the boolits you mentioned and have had molds for them
seems the Uberti may give me another chance to own a piece of history
at any rate the 45 colt is a very fine and capable cartridge IMO :Fire:

[sac]

Thanks for all the great conversation on the topic. Next question is 2400 powder discontinued, I can't find it anywhere.

[35 Whelen]

2400 is still in production and available....where it's available!

35W

[runfiverun]

heard Cabelas had some on their website earlier today.

[white eagle]

Thanks for all the great conversation on the topic. Next question is 2400 powder discontinued, I can't find it anywhere.

yes it is.. you find it where you do and where you don't it's not
bought 8# just the other day [smilie=w:

[rexherring]

My old .45 BH has claimed three nice mule deer loaded with 19 grs of AA#9 and RCBS 255 grain SWC. They are about 1100fps cast with WW's. Never recovered two of the bullets due to side/engine room shots but I did get one back from a front on shot on the third deer. The bullet hit the chest at 40 yds and traveled lengthwise and was recovered under the hide in it's rump. None of the deer went more than a few yards. Great round for deer. I do have the Lee 300 gr RNFP but havent tried it on deer yet.

[bigboredad]

You asked About hogdon longshot and out of every .45 by I ever shot it out of its been excellent. The velocity spreads were in single digits and at 1100fps with a 300gr lfn style bullet it was scary accurate.
I have found 300gr bullets to be more accurate than the 250-280gr bullets. However YMMV also the difference in and over a lfn is just amazing it has to be seen to be believed. However all the bullets discussed here will do the job if you do yours. My suggestion is to pick one and start shooting and shoot some more then when you feel happy with your abilities go shoot a bunch more and at the end of the hunting season you'll have a trophy cause anything taken with taken for your first hunt with your hand cast bullet will be a trophy. Good luck and most important have fun

[44man]

Might be some thread drift but what is the ROA? A .45 Colt without the brass is all. I have taken many deer with both and they both work.
Only difference is the ROA has the wrong twist when hot loaded so distance is short while the Colt can go 100 yards.

[rodwha]

The Ruger Old Army (ROA) used a Black Hawk barrel. It has the same 1:16" twist.

[44man]

The Ruger Old Army (ROA) used a Black Hawk barrel. It has the same 1:16" twist.
True but should have been slower for a RB. What twist for a .45 ML? Seems 1 in 60" .

[rodwha]

Why should it have been slower? Both my ROA and my Remington NMA have a 1:16" twist and do equally well with a ball and my 170 and 195 grn bullets with the same charge.

The ideal twist rate changes in regards to a round ball twist for a pistol vs a rifle. Lyman has a 1:30" twist in their pistols vs a 1:48 or 1:60 for their rifles. And the revolvers that people claim only shoot a ball better also have around a 1:30" twist instead of the 1:16" twist (.44 cal).

[44man]

I get 1102 fps out of the ROA with a RB. At 50 it SUCKS. Look at a RB rifle compared to an inline. Can you shoot a ball from a 1 in 28" twist?
You contradict yourself when you say the 1 in 30" works better but you are correct.

[Wolfer]

Im not sure what the twist is in my H&R inline. Seems like it 32" but might be 28". It shoots round balls very well up to 50 gr of 3f. Above that and they look like buckshot patterns.

I think it would be hard to get 50 gr in a ROA

[rodwha]

I get 1102 fps out of the ROA with a RB. At 50 it SUCKS. Look at a RB rifle compared to an inline. Can you shoot a ball from a 1 in 28" twist?
You contradict yourself when you say the 1 in 30" works better but you are correct.


I don't shoot a ball much. I prefer my WFN boolits.

Yes you can shoot a PRB from a fast twist barrel. Usually very light loads if I'm not mistaken. I don't own an inline or a fast twist rifle (mine is 1:48" in .50 cal).

I never said 1:30" was better for a ball from a pistol. The ROA is considered one of the best pistols in match shoots and they use light loads with a ball. But that is the general thought.

Look at some of the slow twist rifles that used heavy conicals quite well during the Civil War.

As this is a thread concerning the RBH in .45 Colt I assumed your first post today concerning the ROA had to do with bullets. You hadn't clarified if your stance was from using a ball.

[rodwha]

I think it would be hard to get 50 gr in a ROA


I understood "50" to be 50 yds. A modified cylinder can hold ~50 grns. Mine holds 40 grns of 3F BP or 45 grns of 3F T7 and these have a slight bit of extra room with a ball and no wad.

[Wolfer]

I guess what I was trying to say is I believe you can shoot a Ball in anything as long as you don't go too fast.

My only cap and ball pistol is a 58 rem. I'm not sure how much powder it holds. I rarely shoot round balls. Generally I use the Lee 452-200 RF with all the FFFg I can get in the cyl. Velocity of about 700 fps. The two deer I've shot with it obviously didn't realize it was a pipsqueak load.

[44man]

Best load with a ball is 20 gr and the rest a filler, Cream of Wheat or cornmeal.
I use 41 gr of Swiss FFFG and with a boolit I top at around 32-35 gr but don't know the velocity. Very close to a .45.
Pete has the Rem buffalo hunter and he has taken many deer with it, he gets over 1100 fps and it seems to be more accurate then my ROA with the hot load. I don't know the twist.
But back to the .45 BH, the 1 in 16" twist is very forgiving over a wide range of boolits. 250 to 335.
A great deer boolit is the Lee C452-300-RF.
Another good one is the Lee 452-255-RF.
I made a mold for the ROA that shoots well and my friends also love it in the 1911's. I also have the Lee .456-220-1R.

[WillHill]

I have not loaded 45LC's but I would be concerned about what the brass could handle. It is not as heavy as 44 magnum brass so I would give any fired hot load close inspection before a reloading again. H-110 woulds be a good choice with what my experience with the 460 S&W. Work up with the minimum load on the Hodgdon's tables and watch the brass and primer for excessive pressure. I have not tried the Vn-110 because it is not available locally.

[DougGuy]

I have not loaded 45LC's but I would be concerned about what the brass could handle. It is not as heavy as 44 magnum brass so I would give any fired hot load close inspection before a reloading again. H-110 woulds be a good choice with what my experience with the 460 S&W. Work up with the minimum load on the Hodgdon's tables and watch the brass and primer for excessive pressure. I have not tried the Vn-110 because it is not available locally.

You'll be watching for a long long long time for any weakness. It isn't the brass. You can load 454 Casull loads in modern .45 Colt brass until the cows come home.

I have retired a few factory WW and Remington .45 Colt brass with cracked necks, that were loaded to the max Ruger Only loads over and over and over again. No loose primer pockets. Same with .44 mag factory brass. Since Starline is so readily accessible it is the only brass I use these days for straight walled magnum cases. Have yet to throw away one of theirs.

[white eagle]

I have not had the same luck as you with
Starline brass split necks and cracked sides
made a trip to the trash
I also believe the 45 colt will take any and all heavily loaded
Ruger only loads have shot lots of them

[44man]

True, modern .45 brass is STRONG. .45 brass can take .454 pressures at 55,000 or more.
A strange thing was brass would split at the first loading in all my revolvers. I lost a few but my .44 brass has gone 42 loadings without a loss and I never lost a .45 case yet. I lost a .475 case and a .500 JRH the first sizing.
Brass can take more then the gun. You load for the gun, NOT the brass. We do not have balloon head .45's today.

[44man]

Why the hell lose a case to a split right off???? Most brass is good with a good anneal. But a friend brought 45-70 loads to shoot. Some Starline but others were A-Merc. A-merc could not be sized without cracking. I don't know who made them but nothing but junk. I use all kinds from Rem to Starline without a problem. I don't like WW because measurements can be off.

[sac]

I have not loaded 45LC's but I would be concerned about what the brass could handle. It is not as heavy as 44 magnum brass so I would give any fired hot load close inspection before a reloading again. H-110 woulds be a good choice with what my experience with the 460 S&W. Work up with the minimum load on the Hodgdon's tables and watch the brass and primer for excessive pressure. I have not tried the Vn-110 because it is not available locally.

You are referring to the old balloon head cases, here is a good read about 45 colt http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

[44man]

Good read. What I said and mirrors my experiences but without destruction of my guns. Loads shown are higher then what is accurate in any case. There is no sense going to what a gun can take since accurate does not need power and accurate will kill deer.

[rodwha]

I use 41 gr of Swiss FFFG and with a boolit I top at around 32-35 gr but don't know the velocity. Very close to a .45.
Pete has the Rem buffalo hunter and he has taken many deer with it, he gets over 1100 fps and it seems to be more accurate then my ROA with the hot load. I don't know the twist.
But back to the .45 BH, the 1 in 16" twist is very forgiving over a wide range of boolits. 250 to 335.

As Swiss, Olde Eynsford, and Triple 7 give very similar velocities (by volume) your bullet load is quite likely over 500 ft/lbs as 30 grns of 3F T7 behind the 220 grn Lee conical (his shows 225 grns) produced an average of 469 ft/lbs.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LP_dwo2nThA

As the .45 ACP also uses the 1:16" twist a much lighter (shorter) bullet ought to do well also, no?

[44man]

Yes, just slower. My love are the BFR revolvers with faster twist rates. If twist is too slow you need max pressures.

[Djones]

Been loading for two 1894 45 colts, one Ruger 45 colt SBH and one Ruger 454 casull SBH for about one year. I learned right off the bat that my standard RCBS carbide dies would split a case neck when sizing after the first shooting. My RCBS cowboy carbide 45 colt dies seem to be easier on the brass. Maybe a more gradual taper when sizing? I have tried only neck sizing and it works, but you need to have seperate brass for each gun...well my buddy and I sometimes get to shooting and don't do a good job of keeping ammo only for one gun. So, I have been full length resizing for the last four months. That keeps from having a big case head (from the 1894) that won't chamber into the Rugers. Sure wish the 45 colt chambers were all held to a tighter specification.

Well enough history, going after deer with 35 Rem 35-200 and then going to try out my 1894 45 colt with Lee 300 grain wfngc loaded long over 20 grains of lil gun. I hope to whack a few does because my family and I sure love some deer steaks. Happy hunting.

http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt124/duckwhackercmon/20779F3D-FDCB-44C7-8415-1BED088F360B.jpg (http://s604.photobucket.com/user/duckwhackercmon/media/20779F3D-FDCB-44C7-8415-1BED088F360B.jpg.html)

[PositiveCaster]

I lived in Alaska for 27 years and hunted deer on Kodiak Island most years - limits varied from 4 to 7 animals a year so lots of opportunity to test load performance. I started handgun hunting there with my .45LC 4-5/8" BH and 255-grain SWC bullets. I was not impressed with their performance and had long tracking sessions for several animals. In an environment filled with brown bears, you don't want a long tracking session with a bleeding deer. Several other handgun hunters in my silhouette club had similar questionable performance so we switched to jacketed HPs and had much better success.

After several years I wanted to try cast again, so I loaded up some Lee 250 RFNs over 15 grains of BlueDot and took the ferry to the island. This time I had much better luck with a more visible reaction of the animals and quicker kills than the SWCs; the LEEs have a larger meplat. A few years later I went with an LBT 300 LFN but they did not seem to kill any better than the LEE boolits. (I used them in my .45LC Dan Wesson silhouette revolver where they performed great out to the 200 meter rams.)

I have recently started loading the LBT 280 WFN in the BH and a 10" Bullberry Contender barrel. This was a struggle since I wanted to develop a midrange load for both pistols, but any mild load in either pistol had mediocre to terrible accuracy. Heated up to over 1075 fps with 14 grains of BlueDot in the T/C barrel gives 1" groups at 50 yards, but down at 800-850 fps it looks more like a shotgun pattern - some groups were over 8"! Regardless, the hotter BD load should work great on Texas deer and hogs...although the LEE 250s have performed well.


.

[Cary Gunn]

Howdy gents,

I have a question for "Sixshot" that was prompted by clicking on the bear-trailcam clip in his Post No. 14 to this thread.

My "click" on the trailcam photo led me, through a little more snooping, to Sixshot's absolutely incredible "Photobucket" containing literally hundreds of outstanding Rocky Mountain hunting and fishing photographs.

I probably spent an hour pouring through better than 200 pics of interesting dead critters, fantasic western scenery, and an enviable collection of hogleg hardware. There was even a collection of some old home-grown Elmer Keith photographs. What a treasure-trove ...

Anyway, Sixshot, among your many, many fascinating photos was a pic of what appeared to be a stainless-steel Ruger Super Blackhawk with three chambers blown out the top of the cylinder, and a very nice bow placed in the topstrap.

My question is, what the hell happened to that revolver? What was the caliber and what, for gosh sakes, was the load? Was anybody hurt when that revolver came apart?

Inquiring minds need answers.

In the meantime, please accept my thanks for access to your outstanding Photobucket. It's one hell of a collection of hunting/outdoor photography.

Happy trails,

-- Cary Gunn --

[DougGuy]

Heated up to over 1075 fps with 14 grains of BlueDot in the T/C barrel gives 1" groups at 50 yards, but down at 800-850 fps it looks more like a shotgun pattern - some groups were over 8"!

What you are running into is not enough spin to stabilize the boolit in flight. The heavier boolits *need* spin, and 900fps won't fling it hard enough out the muzzle to do the trick.

Hunting loads with heavy for caliber boolits in both the .44 and the .45 need to be in the 1100 ~ 1200fps velocity range to be accurate. Plus they kill better at these velocities because they create a more effective wound channel.

If you want a midrange load that will perform well at handgun hunting distances, try some of the LBT 250gr WFN solids. I am having great accuracy in a Vaquero that I have chambered in .45 Schofield, and loaded to a max of 23,000psi or tier 2 pressures. I have not made a kill with these but I am under the impression they will be very effective on thin-skinned game.

L to R: LBT 250gr OWC (Ogival Wad Cutter) LBT 250gr WFN-PB, LBT 250gr WFN-GC

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/250_LBT_TRIO_zpshh2co3gc.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/250_LBT_TRIO_zpshh2co3gc.jpg.html)

[44man]

I might have an answer for the Ruger. Only time I seen damage was from a stuck boolit in the barrel.
My friend blew his .41 that way. He had a habit of loading one at a time instead of a block.
His son distracted him and he seated in an empty case. Not too smart anyway, he did not notice the round did not fire and shot another behind it.
Bent the pin down and top strap up enough to ruin a scope and bulged the cylinder. Amazingly the cylinder did not crack, pretty thick in a .41.
A double charge of fast powder can happen, mostly on a progressive press.
Doug is correct about spin, I found a .44 with a 300-310 gr needs 1316 fps, goes nuts at 1100.
A 335 in the Colt needs 1160 fps. Both are 296 territory. Lighter boolits can be shot slow and a 245 RCBS shoots great with just 7 gr of Unique.
One thing I found with Keith boolits is they need to be very hard and accuracy just formed with 28 to 30 BHN. Working alloys seen groups tighten as I tested harder and harder until I was center of pop can good at 50 yards.
Once you have FIT, toss the obturation stuff. Obturate means to SEAL so if you cast for seal, you need no expansion in the bore. Too many SLUMP boolits into some strange shapes thinking it is better. Same goes for PB, hard will stop skid before the base band is reached.
Anyway, recovered boolits should look the same as you cast them. Rifling marks should never be wider then what is in the barrel at the base, some skid near the nose will not hurt.
Some powder coat to reduce skid so softer can be shot but I question that after finding softer boolits with GC's that failed.

[35 Whelen]

I might have an answer for the Ruger. Only time I seen damage was from a stuck boolit in the barrel.
My friend blew his .41 that way. He had a habit of loading one at a time instead of a block.
His son distracted him and he seated in an empty case. Not too smart anyway, he did not notice the round did not fire and shot another behind it.
Bent the pin down and top strap up enough to ruin a scope and bulged the cylinder. Amazingly the cylinder did not crack, pretty thick in a .41.

So you're saying a primer alone drove a .41 caliber bullet from an empty case into the barrel???

35W

[44man]

So you're saying a primer alone drove a .41 caliber bullet from an empty case into the barrel???

35W
Yes it will and even a standard primer will do it. The difference from one primer to another can be 2000 psi. But even at the low side a Boolit will not hold. I bet 100 psi can move a boolit.

[rodwha]

CO2 cartridges for BB/pellet guns are used to expel muzzleloader bullets from a rifle that may have over 40" of barrel with a projectile that can weigh over an ounce.

[Old Two Wars]

Rossi circuit judge 7.5 grains reddot 160 gr lee flat nose got a small doe at 50 yards and a 300 lb black bear 7 gr reddot 255 lee flat nose from a new vaquero 5.5 in both passed through and they didn't run far all about shot placement oh and they were air cooled wheel weight material lubed with Molly bees wax through a star sizer oops not a .45 SBH but so far my Bisley SBH Hunter gets woodchucks with those pesky j word slugs but I'll be trying cast