30-40 Krag--Maybe?...

[BCB]

Did a couple of searches concerning the 30-40 Krag as a possible cast boolit shooter on and Encore frame. Found some info but it was mostly for the older military Krags…

I recently purchased a 308 Winchester barrel for the Encore hoping it might be a good cast shooter—wrong, wrong, and more wrong…

I want to stay with a .308 caliber. I have a 30-30 Winchester barrel for a Contender and it shoots great…

So, I was thinking maybe the Krag cartridge as it has a long neck and might help hold the boolit a bit better than the 308 Winchester neck does…

I wonder if it would be worth trying to get a barrel chamber in the Krag cartridge?...

And I also wonder, will I be able to get brass?...

Thanks…BCB

[Themoose]

Brass is currently at a premium,. People are asking upwards of $2 each for new brass.

[square butte]

I have seen several batches of 50 new Winchester 30-40 go for right around $150 on gunbroker in the last 4 weeks

[Char-Gar]

The 30-30 will serve you better, unless you want to shoot heavy cast bullets over 200 grains.

[Jeff Michel]

You can form 30-40 out of .303 British, They work just fine, but they are a bit short.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Sounds like a barrel or gun problem, not a cartridge problem.

[BCB]

Sounds like a barrel or gun problem, not a cartridge problem.

Yea, maybe so...

T/C wanted me to send the entire rifle back and not just the barrel. Too much bother removing all the stuff added after purchase--springs, base, rings, 'scope, etc...

Best I lick my wounds and just consider that 308 project one of life's occasional failures...

Good-luck...BCB

[tdoyka]

you can make a 30-40 krag, MGM barrels and you can buy 303 british cases. if i didn't have my '98 spr armory in 30-40 krag, i would do exactly that. i have like 130 or so 30-40 cases, i'm going to buy 303 british cases. i haven't bought them yet, but midway is a good start.

Custom Pistol Barrels | Custom Rifle Barrels (http://matchgrademachine.com/chambers/#30cal)

303 British- MidwayUSA (http://www.midwayusa.com/303-british/br?cid=7390)

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Yeah--you know between .30-30 and .30-40 for cast boolit shooting it's kind of a toss up. Both good, but like Char-Gar said, the 30-40 has the edge for heavy boolits. I went to a range once and there was this old guy with a Rem. Rolling block in .30-30. It was a contender for the "Ugliest Gun I've Seen" Trophy. It had no forestock. Instead it had a rod running from the bottom of the barrel downward vertically and had a palm rest on the end of the rod. The rod was held onto the barrel with duct tape, as was the palm rest onto the bottom of the rod. He'd come out of the target/range master shack, walk to the firing line, fire off hand at 50 yds., return to the shack and reload the one cartridge case, then come out and do it all over again. Every shot was a bullseye.

[BCB]

To make 30-40 from 303, do you simply run them into a 30-40 sizing die and then fireform? How much shorter is the neck when doing this?...

Good-luck...BCB

[Der Gebirgsjager]

The process is as you've described. Just off the top of my head, maybe 1/10 of an inch shorter. As for the fire forming, nothing special is required. Just use a reasonable load and shoot them. It seems that .303 brass, although not nearly as scarce as .30-40 brass, is getting more difficult to find. So, were it me, what I'd do after the first firing would be to anneal the top half of the cases and then neck size only as long as possible to avoid working the brass excessively. There's another advantage to this system also in that many Krags are out of headspace specs. After the first firing you may observed a shiny ring just forward of the rim where the case has stretched to fill the chamber when fired, incipient case head separation. So if that is the case, once the first firing has happened and the stretching has occurred you don't want to full length resize if possible to avoid it and then stretch it again on the next firing, because around the third time you'll get a crack in the brass at that location of even a head separation and lose the case. So it's best to neck size only as long as you can. Eventually neck sized cases will need to be full length sized anyway to continue to work properly, but usually in the case of the .30-40 you'll lose the case due to a crack anyway before you reach that point. Just a tip to extend case life. The way I anneal mine is to stand them in a pan of water and hit each one with a hand held propane torch. As each case turns an orange red I tip it over into the water with a short piece of welding rod (any pointed thin object would work) and then fish them out to dry before sizing. You only need to do it once until you get a cracked neck or two indicating that that area is hardening again from being resized, then do it again. But, compared to some other cartridge brass, Krag brass has a shorter life.

[CHeatermk3]

Could you maybe find someone to ream your .308 to give you a bit, like .050 or .100" more throat? Then you could seat your boolit out farther and not have the short neck be so much of an issue.

[swamp]

I found a deal on a MGM contender barrel at a lgs and couldn't resist. I really like it. Also have a #3 and a 98. A fun cartridge.
swamp

[RPRNY]

30-40 Krag is the best small bore single shot cast bullet case there is. That lovely long neck shooting a 210 grs 311284 over 22 grs 4227 is a treat. The 1:12 308 barrel may be perfect or you may have to drop down to something ever so slightly shorter. Loaded Remington 180 core lokt is available at my Cabela's in Denver and on the internet for under $30/box. Buy, shoot, reload.

Headspaces on the rim, easy extraction in a break action single. If you ever want to hot rod it, it will equal or exceed the 308 Win with j-word bullets. I have had 175 grs Berger VLDs at 2685 fps from my Ruger No 3.

Sent from my KFOT using Tapatalk

[Scharfschuetze]

You can form 30-40 out of .303 British, They work just fine, but they are a bit short.

Time sure changes the components game. Just a few years ago, people were using 30/40 Krag cases to form 303 British cases as the Krag cases gave longer life in the Lee Enfields.

I enjoy the Krag and find it tops as a cast boolit projector. I use the 311299 which comes in at 208 grains with GC and lube from my mould using Linotype.

[Ken in Iowa]

I'm a huge Krag nut. The brass crisis makes me want to recommend the 30/30 at this time.

Since you're looking at a custom barrel anyway, have you considered a 30/30 Ackley Improved? The neck is still .350" long. The 311299 should work fine.

[BCB]

I'm a huge Krag nut. The brass crisis makes me want to recommend the 30/30 at this time.

Since you're looking at a custom barrel anyway, have you considered a 30/30 Ackley Improved? The neck is still .350" long. The 311299 should work fine.

I did think about the Improved version, but I wonder is the squeeze worth the juice you get? Since I am only shooting my 30-30 loads using the 311041 @ around 1400 fps, I wonder what I will gain?...

There was an article about the Improved versions in Handloader awhile back (might look for it) and it seemed that for the extra powder, you did not gain that same percentage of velocity--which is understandable...

Yep, brass is a problem in this day and age. I became a bit more hopeful when I learned that 303 British cases could be used. A poster even listed a link to a supply of them...

Might do a bit more research on the Improved cartridge. Maybe I can do some comparisons with the QL program...

Thanks...BCB

[Ken in Iowa]

I did think about the Improved version, but I wonder is the squeeze worth the juice you get? Since I am only shooting my 30-30 loads using the 311041 @ around 1400 fps, I wonder what I will gain?...


Thanks...BCB

Not a thing with that load. It might be a different story shooting a 311299 at higher velocity.

[BCB]

That's sort of what I am thinking also...

I have most always shot my cast loads at reduced velocities. Seems I have better accuracy...

I guess the Improved version would be better if I were shooting jacketed bullets as near maximum stuff. But, those days are long gone once I started casting a dozen or so years ago...

Thanks...BCB

[Char-Gar]

Guys, I am a Krag rifle fan and fan of the 30-40 round, having 4 Krag rifles, one Winchester 95 and a Japchester also in 30-40. But let's get our heads out of the clouds and stop being so gushy about the round. It has it's place, but it is not unique by far.

1. The 30-30 rounds has a plenty long neck and ideal case capacity for cast bullet loads up to factory velocity and with a 1-12 twist (except Marlin) give great result with bullets up to 200 grains.

I have a Browning single shot Traditional Hunter in 30-30 and it is the best cast bullet rifle I have ever owned. With a little attention to detail and good karma, that rifle will produce 10 shot sub-MOA groups on demand.

2. The 30-40 comes with a 1-10 twist and larger case capacity that really needed for factory velocity cast bullet loads. It really takes slower powders and heavier bullets for the 30-40 to show any advantage over the 30-30.

3. Now here is the hard part. The 30-06 will do anything the 30-30 and 30-40 will plus a bunch more. Find or build one with a 1-12 or 1-14 twist and you will truly have something to brag about with cast bullets. Even a decent sporter or US military rifle in 30-06 will produce 1.5 MOA groups. That is about as good as your are going to get unless you add a custom barrel with a slower twist.

The 30-40 is a good cast bullet round, but lets not take leave of our senses about it. It is not the holy grail of 30 caliber cast bullet rounds!

The 308 and the 30-40 have virtually identical powder capacities, with the the only significant difference being the length of the neck. The short 308 neck is not the kiss of death and can be dealt with by proper cast bullet choice. It takes a short base and proper fitting bore riding nose to make it dance. If your are happy with the weight, RCBS 165 SIL works well in most 308 rifles. Lets, also not forget that most 308 rifles come with a 1-12 twist.

Always remember guys, I always talk about on demand 10 shoot groups, not the occasional 3 or 5 shot "fluke group" that shows up on the target from time to time.

[square butte]

Char-Gar, What is the twist rate on your Winchester 95 30-40? Always wondered what twist they were done in.

[RPRNY]

Win 95 30-40 originals a repros have a 1:10 twist.

[RPRNY]

Guys, I am a Krag rifle fan and fan of the 30-40 round, having 4 Krag rifles, one Winchester 95 and a Japchester also in 30-40. But let's get our heads out of the clouds and stop being so gushy about the round. It has it's place, but it is not unique by far.

1. The 30-30 rounds has a plenty long neck and ideal case capacity for cast bullet loads up to factory velocity and with a 1-12 twist (except Marlin) give great result with bullets up to 200 grains.

I have a Browning single shot Traditional Hunter in 30-30 and it is the best cast bullet rifle I have ever owned. With a little attention to detail and good karma, that rifle will produce 10 shot sub-MOA groups on demand.

2. The 30-40 comes with a 1-10 twist and larger case capacity that really needed for factory velocity cast bullet loads. It really takes slower powders and heavier bullets for the 30-40 to show any advantage over the 30-30.

3. Now here is the hard part. The 30-06 will do anything the 30-30 and 30-40 will plus a bunch more. Find or build one with a 1-12 or 1-14 twist and you will truly have something to brag about with cast bullets. Even a decent sporter or US military rifle in 30-06 will produce 1.5 MOA groups. That is about as good as your are going to get unless you add a custom barrel with a slower twist.

The 30-40 is a good cast bullet round, but lets not take leave of our senses about it. It is not the holy grail of 30 caliber cast bullet rounds!

The 308 and the 30-40 have virtually identical powder capacities, with the the only significant difference being the length of the neck. The short 308 neck is not the kiss of death and can be dealt with by proper cast bullet choice. It takes a short base and proper fitting bore riding nose to make it dance. If your are happy with the weight, RCBS 165 SIL works well in most 308 rifles. Lets, also not forget that most 308 rifles come with a 1-12 twist.

Always remember guys, I always talk about on demand 10 shoot groups, not the occasional 3 or 5 shot "fluke group" that shows up on the target from time to time.

These are of course entirely matters of opinion. Since I think that the Lyman 311284 is the perfect 30 cal cast bullet, I believe the 30-40 is the perfect single shot cast bullet rifle. I'd rather shoot a Krag than a Springfield, but you make a good case for the 30-06 in a bolt gun. I won't hear anything said against the 30-30, so if I wanted to shoot something less perfect and shorter than the 311284, the 30-30 would be a very close second to the 30-40 :D :kidding:

[BCB]

Lots of comments here as I figured there might be…

I tried a 308 Winchester which failed miserable. This has been discussed on this website so there is really no value to be gained by bringing it up again. I do see that many 308 Winchester rounds win matches listed in the Fouling Shot journal—but mine sure isn’t going to!!!...

So, that is why I thought the 30-40 might be a better choice—the long neck and a rimmed cartridge are what I was thinking. I didn’t realize that brass could be a problem…

Yep, I have ½ dozen 30-30 Winchester firearms. Levers and single shot—the levers shoot as well as can be expected for me and open sights, and the T/C Super 14” shoots extremely well by my standards…

I will say, there are NO firearms in my arsenal that will shoot 10-shot sub-MOA on demand—period. The closest I have to that would be a Super 16” Contender in 223 Remington cartridge. Not with cast but with 50 V-Max…

I know the 30-30 Winchester round is a proven cast boolit shooter. But, I really don’t want to get a 30-30 Winchester barrel for my Encore. I guess it might have to be custom made? Plus, I wanted to try another caliber that I don’t reload for. New territory so to speak…

Guess I best keep doing some more research—always something it seems…

Thanks…

Good-luck…BCB

[Char-Gar]

I have two rifles that are sure fire MOA or smaller on demand. Remember, I also said my karma needed to be in order. There are days when I can't shoot that well, even though the rifle can. We also have the sun, wind, and whether or not the wife burned to toast to content with. But the rifle and load can do it's thing, when the nut behind the butt plate is up to the task that day.

Also, when loading for this kind of accuracy, we need to learn how the bench resters do it, and follow suit. When we are trying for this level, little things start to matter. A .10 MOA reduction in group size become a very big deal. For the most part, it is not worth the effort once you have proven to yourself, you can do it. Once you have learned to roll that big rock up the hill, the questions is, how many times do you want to do it again?

The two rifles are the aforementioned Browning SS in 30-30 and a Remington 700 VS in 308. I have a number of others that will turn in 1.5 to 2 MOA pretty much on demand.

I recall your frustrations with the 308.

[Char-Gar]

Char-Gar, What is the twist rate on your Winchester 95 30-40? Always wondered what twist they were done in.

Yes, they are 1-10 twist. Style/form of rifling and twist become important when we get to the smaller details of cast bullet shooting. Bullet temper, powder burning rate, fit of bullet to the throat and several other factors are important as well. The twist of rifling will most certainly have an effect on how fast we can shoot, with accuracy, a cast bullet out of an individual barrel. We have had several near wars over this aspect in times gone by.

[tdoyka]

Lots of comments here as I figured there might be…

I tried a 308 Winchester which failed miserable. This has been discussed on this website so there is really no value to be gained by bringing it up again. I do see that many 308 Winchester rounds win matches listed in the Fouling Shot journal—but mine sure isn’t going to!!!...

So, that is why I thought the 30-40 might be a better choice—the long neck and a rimmed cartridge are what I was thinking. I didn’t realize that brass could be a problem…

Yep, I have ½ dozen 30-30 Winchester firearms. Levers and single shot—the levers shoot as well as can be expected for me and open sights, and the T/C Super 14” shoots extremely well by my standards…

I will say, there are NO firearms in my arsenal that will shoot 10-shot sub-MOA on demand—period. The closest I have to that would be a Super 16” Contender in 223 Remington cartridge. Not with cast but with 50 V-Max…

I know the 30-30 Winchester round is a proven cast boolit shooter. But, I really don’t want to get a 30-30 Winchester barrel for my Encore. I guess it might have to be custom made? Plus, I wanted to try another caliber that I don’t reload for. New territory so to speak…

Guess I best keep doing some more research—always something it seems…

Thanks…

Good-luck…BCB


i don't often say this, but MGM barrels is the best i have ever seen. they do make a custom chamber if you really want one but for me, its best to go with a factory chamber. i have a 444 marlin(23" barrel), 6.5 creedmoor(16 1/4" barrel) and a 20 vartarg(16 1/4" barrel). each barrel has a "factory" chamber and every one of them goes sub minute at 100 yards. i have a 22-250ai(27" barrel) that i haven't even shot yet. the 20vt is probably the best thing ever for shooting varmints(.2 - .3" at 100 yards, 3 shots).

i wasn't expecting much on the way of accuracy. i was figuring on 1 - 1/2" at 100 yards when i bought my first ever MGM barrel, 6.5 cm. boy was i wrong, the first group was 1/2" , the 2nd group was 3/8" and the third group was again 1/2" at 100 yards. i've used several powders and they all get about a 1/2"+/- with 120gr bullets. i've since then bought bought the 20 vt and the 444 marlin and they get around a 1/2". the 444 does both the 275gr ranch dog and the 280gr wfn at about 1/2" at 100 yards. this is coming from a handi-capple guy:lol:!!! i had a stroke about 4 years ago which left me with a useless right arm and leg[smilie=1:.

but you can't go wrong with a MGM barrel. they are relatively cheap (bullberry and ssk are alot more) $300 for pistol, $370 for rifle(both are blued). they have a whole lot to choose from. if you are looking for a krag on a single shot, you should try them.

Thompson Center Contender Barrels | Thompson Center Contender (http://matchgrademachine.com/)

[Scharfschuetze]

I reviewed your original post and besides accuracy, I didn't see a goal as to range. Both rounds will meet original ballistics in your TC using cast boolits equaling the original jacketed bullet weights and thus you will enjoy (or despair at) the original trajectories.

If you want to shoot at longer ranges, say past 200 yards: then the 30/40 with a 210 to 220 grain cast boolit (I like the 311299) will be a wise choice with flatter trajectory and less wind deflection.

If you shoot to 200 yards or so then the 30/30 with the 170 grain designs (I like the Lyman 311041) will do just fine and burn a few less grains of powder.

I love shooting at long ranges, so for me the 30/40 would be logical; but hey, that's me and not you. By the way, I recall your thread on the 308 barrel. I guess you never did get it sorted out. A shame considering its cost. I've always found the 30/40 to be a better cast boolit round than the 308 so perhaps that was a blessing in disguise.

[fatelvis]

After tinkering with many loads in my #3 chambered in 30-40, I've been finding that it shoots much better groups with a 311041 sized to .310", over my favorite 311299. Just the opposite of what I would have predicted. I guess you just don't know until you pull the trigger!

[Scharfschuetze]

I guess you just don't know until you pull the trigger!

Amen to that!

[blixen]

Brass is currently at a premium,. People are asking upwards of $2 each for new brass.

What the heck! i've got 100 winchester brass and a box of .303 mixed that i'm going to start reforming. Enjoyed shooting my Krag sporter today and you better believe i counted my empties!

[BCB]

Well, I know I didn’t state my complete purpose in the original post, so now maybe I’ll give a bit more info…

I just like to shoot at my range and I have 300 yards distance. I have steel pendulums (groundhog silhouettes) that I can move to various distances. And I have a good flowing spring so I have a source of water to fill beer cans and shoot at various ranges—just plain ol’ fun shooting…

I just pick a firearm that I might want to shoot on any given day and go to the range. I simply move the targets to the appropriate distance for the weapon of choice. Wheelguns, T/C’s—pistol or rifle barrels, or bolt rifles—just a variety. All shooting cast boolits…

I DON’T SHOOT COMPETION!!! And, mostly I am alone and shoot to relax. (Although the 308 Winchester project was not relaxing!)…

I have the 311041 mold and it shoots well in my 30-30 Winchesters. I also have 2 Lee molds. The C309-200-R, C309-150F and the CTL312-160-2R. I tried that boolit in the 308 Winchester thinking a larger diameter might help—it didn’t…

I do have a pretty good variety of boolits that those who felt sorry for me during the 308 Winchester project, sent me, the 311299 is one of them…

Regardless, I do think I might get a 30-40 Krag barrel just to explore new waters and a new cartridge…

MGM seems to only offer stainless barrels unless I didn’t search well enough. I really want blued to match the receiver and ‘scope setup. I didn’t check Bellm. I’ve purchased springs etc. from him, but never a barrel…

If twist options are offered, would a 10 or 12 be better? Lyman shows data with a 1:10…

So, I guess that is sort of what I intend to do with the 30-40 Krag. Maybe try it on deer, as I have several of the cast boolit shooters I own…

Thanks…

Good-luck…BCB

[Scharfschuetze]

The original US Krag had a 1 in 10" twist, so I guess that's considered the standard for the calibre. While I have good results from an original Krag barrel, were I to build one up and had the choice, I'd select the 1 in 12" for heavier boolits and perhaps a Palma twist of 1 in 14" for the 150 to 180 grain projectiles.

[TXGunNut]

I'm not a competition shooter and not interested in doing what it takes to build sub-MOA ammo simply because on my best days I'm not an MOA shooter, neither are either of my 30-40's. I shoot the 30-40 Krag for three reasons: it has a rich history, it's odd enough to be interesting but common enough that components can be found or made and it shoots quite well without a lot of noise and recoil.
Is it a better CB cartridge than the 30WCF? I don't think so. Better than a 308W? I don't know but I'm inclined to believe that a bottleneck case does better with a longer neck in most cases even tho I've had good luck with the 35 Rem. I suspect your 308W can be made to shoot but if you're convinced otherwise it's time to move on to something you enjoy.

[RPRNY]

1:12 should work well with the 311299, good boolit, and 311284 (my favorite) out to 300 yards.

Sent from my KFOT using Tapatalk

[BCB]

I was doing some comparing of the 303 British and the 30-40 Krag. It seems that the neck would be considerably shorter if using the 303 British brass...

Does anyone know what the neck length would be after fireforming a 303 British to a 30-40 Krag?...

I am wondering if I am going to be gaining much neck length over the 308 Winchester?...

Lots of research on this potential move to attempt a 30-40 Krag for a cast shooter...

Thanks...BCB

[RPRNY]

30-40 brass is available and worth using.

Sent from my KFOT using Tapatalk

[BCB]

30-40 brass is available and worth using.

Sent from my KFOT using Tapatalk

I've checked several suppliers and they are "out of stock" for the most part, or they don't list it...

Once fired brings more than the prices listed for new brass--if it is ever available...

Guess I won't order a barrel until I see if I can get brass first...

Thanks...BCB

[gnoahhh]

Krag brass is scarce, but it is out there. Beat the bushes and you might be surprised at what you find.

I agree wholeheartedly with Char-Gar's thoughts.

[RPRNY]

I've checked several suppliers and they are "out of stock" for the most part, or they don't list it...

Once fired brings more than the prices listed for new brass--if it is ever available...

Guess I won't order a barrel until I see if I can get brass first...

Thanks...BCB

Remington loaded ammo available at Cabelas and several inter web retailers. 30-40 brass available on GB.