Marksmanship Book Recommendations

[Brian Albin]

Hello shooters.
I just now bought on Amazon:
William Reichenbach's "Sixguns and Bullseyes" from the year 1936; and Walter Roper's "Pistol and Revolver Shooting" - original date 1945, this is the 1960 reprint.
And then after spending my money the thought occurred to me that I ought to ask opinions here from you fellas on what book will get me to shooting straight. Paper target and small live game are my interests, definitely not combat or pretend combat.
Do you have a preference of a favorite author or book?

Thanks, Brian

[hp246]

I'd start with this publication from the United States Army Marksmanship Unit. Best of all, it's free. Go to the link and print it out. I believe if you do a Google search, you will find some more specific publications they put out. https://archive.org/stream/firearms-u.s.-army-marksmanship-unit---pistol-marksmanship-training-g/u.s.armymarksmanshipunit-pistolmarksmanshiptrainingguide_djvu.txt

[Scharfschuetze]

+1 on the above post.

You might look over at the NRA's on-line store too. At one time they had numerous books on marksmanship.

No matter how much "fast and fancy" stuff you read about, get the fundamentals sorted out first. Speed will come with the mastery of the fundamentals.

From my military shooting team days:

[Mk42gunner]

There are also a couple of threads up in the sticky section that have a lot of good info on improving your shooting.

Robert

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I think you've got a couple choice titles there, I just ordered the same two thanks to you.

[wv109323]

The Pistol Shooter's Treasury by Gil Hebard. Out of print but should be available used.

[nicholst55]

The Pistol Shooter's Treasury by Gil Hebard. Out of print but should be available used.

I've got a well-read copy of that one the shelf here.

[Porterhouse]

As mentioned, The pistol shooters treasury is a must to read for everyone who's serious about learning this dying art of human skill.
Also you can never ignore all the writings of great Elmer Keith. His "Sixguns" contains tremendous amount of wisdoms here and there.
Good luck finding your own shooting bible as everyone learns differently!

[johniv]

The Pistol Shooter's Treasury by Gil Hebard. Out of print but should be available used.
Good advice.

[Scharfschuetze]

Gil Hebard used to run a great mail order business from Illinois. I bought lots of reloading supplies, targets and what not from him during my LE pistol team days. He was truly a gentleman and a marksman of the first order. No bombast, no BS; just honest advice from a champion.

Here's a short bio of him that was run in Shooting Times:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/historical/remembering-a-legend-gil-hebard-1918-2012/

[Brian Albin]

I think you've got a couple choice titles there, I just ordered the same two thanks to you.

I have always wanted to do some good for somebody. :D
I hope the books are good ones. The names are famous, so I expect they know themselves how to shoot. If they can teach me, that will be splendid.

After posting here last night, I found "American Pistol Shooting: A Manual of Instruction in Modern Pistol Marksmanship" by Major William D. Frazer on Amazon. It was a first edition from 1929, for what seemed a sensible price, so I added it to the shelf.

I have downloaded: "Pistol and Revolver Shooting" by ALA Himmelwright from Project Gutenberg free access books. This is from year 1905 and is said to be the first pistol shooting technique book to have a large public sale. I have not yet read enough of it to make any recommendation. Mr Himmelwright was President of the U.S. Revolver Association from 1904–1906, and won the Association's inaugural National Revolver Shooting Championship match in 1900. He is also said to be the inventor of the wadcutter bullet: 175 grain Ideal #429220 for the .44 Russian, and Ideal #360302 at 112 grains for the .38 Special, or possibly for the original 38 S&W. Lyman continued these into the mid fifties and then quit them when designs with longer bearing surface had replaced them.

Brian

[Scharfschuetze]

Another book that is of interest is Jim Gregg's "Point Shooting" or something to that effect. He is another of the old gentlemen of pistol craft, although not known by many. My department sent me to his LE course during that career and it was a most practical event for me. It carried on from the Army's "Quick Kill" course that I went to before deploying to VN. For low light or night shooting it's really the only way to go short of a laser or NVGs. If you can see your target, you can hit a specific point on it once you have mastered the technique.

He's a denizen of the Pacific North West and I run into him from time to time.

Here's a link:

http://www.jimgregg.net/

While this style of shooting isn't in keeping with the OP, it is worth learning if you carry for self-defense, home defense or earn your salary under arms.

If the link isn't working for you, just Google: "Jim Gregg point shooting"

Here's what I get: https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=jim%20gregg%20point%20shooting

[Brian Albin]

Hello Scharfschuetze,
I could not get Jim Gregg's web page to open. What does LE stand for? Is it Limited Engagement?

Thanks, Brian

[hp246]

Another book that is of interest is Jim Gregg's "Point Shooting" or something to that effect. He is another of the old gentlemen of pistol craft, although not known by many. My department sent me to his LE course during that career and it was a most practical event for me. It carried on from the Army's "Quick Kill" course that I went to before deploying to VN. For low light or night shooting it's really the only way to go short of a laser or NVGs. If you can see your target, you can hit a specific point on it once you have mastered the technique.

He's a denizen of the Pacific North West and I run into him from time to time.

Here's a link:

http://www.jimgregg.net/

While this style of shooting isn't in keeping with the OP, it is worth learning if you carry for self-defense, home defense or earn your salary under arms. That name is a blast from the past. I also went through Jimm Gregg's training. It was back in the 80s. Glad to hear Jim is still going strong. Excellent training. A bit expensive from an ammo perspective to keep up on it though.

[Scharfschuetze]

That name is a blast from the past. I also went through Jimm Gregg's training. It was back in the 80s. Glad to hear Jim is still going strong. Excellent training. A bit expensive from an ammo perspective to keep up on it though.

Ha, ha! Yes, you go through some rounds at his course. Fortunately, my department sent me with adequate reserves. I also attended in the early 80s. I just talked with him last year and he's looking good.

Brian,

Sorry about that. We throw around more acronyms here than a government agency sometimes.

LE = Law enforcemnt. LEO = Law enforcement officer.

If the link isn't working, just Google "Jim Gregg point shooting"

Here's what I get: https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=jim%20gregg%20point%20shooting

[Brian Albin]

Thanks, Scharfschuetze.

I just added "The Art of Revolver Shooting", Walter Winans' first book on pistol shooting, published in 1900. This is a new paperback reprint. I despise these computer era reprints, but this publisher: Leonaur Books, says their work are newly typeset and are not facsimiles; so here's hoping.

Brian

[stu1ritter]

I think you might enjoy this updated version of the Army manual over the text version provided above.
http://tinyurl.com/ozrlky2
The chapters are listed on the right and you can save them and print them if you wish.

Stu

[44man]

Most of my revolver shooting is slow and rested for deer. I almost never shoot fast but a friend brought a 1911 colt and as fast as I could align sights I poked the center out of the target. I tried from bags and could not improve it.
BOOKS! I don't think so. Nothing beats shooting. I have a neighbor that looks like he went to the schools, draw and pull into the chest and extend, lean into an AR. tacticool stuff but I out shoot him. He looks like he went to Gunsight training.
The friend the other day aimed for minutes and could not hit while I shot his guns like full autos. He is concerned with carry when you can't take forever to get off a shot.He changed the trigger in his Ruger .22 1911 grip thingy. I thought I was breaking a ham bone to fire it. He fears my revolver triggers. My Mark II's are better. Mine is 28 oz, His must be 5#. My 45-70 BFR is 19 oz. I let him dry fire and he says he would shoot his foot.

[tazman]

Many of us are not naturally good shots. We have to study the correct methods and techniques and learn to practice them correctly to get acceptably good. Books are a good place to start that process since the writers are almost certain to know more about this than I do.
I can't watch myself shoot and see what I may be doing wrong or how I might improve.
I haven't been able to find a coach around here yet. I may be able to at the club/shooting range I joined recently.

[stu1ritter]

I have been shooting bullseye competition since 1960 on the 2nd Army team. I have been reading, rereading and trying to learn from the USAAMU manual ever since it first appeared. I'm always checking technique against the standard. While nothing does beat shooting practice, it has to be educational practice where you learn and don't repeat the same mistakes over and over. Just doing ball and dummy (mixed live/non-live) practice alone is one of the greatest aids to not paying attention to recoil for one. There are so many techniques in the manual, it is really worth the read if you like cleaning the X ring at 25 yards in timed and rapid fire.

Stu

[44man]

Shooting is natural. Fit first. My best shots with a shotgun was from fit and I never seen the barrel or bead. Handguns are the same. If the barrel is where you are looking you will hit.

[tazman]

I have never owned a gun that shot where I was looking without being aimed and I owned several shotguns that were fitted to me.

[44man]

I have owned a few, Ithaca 37 and a Browning auto 5. 870 not so much. Ithaca was the best, triple on a covey and never seen the raybar bead. One day I had 2 grouse burst from behind a tree, got both.

[tazman]

I once dropped 4 quail on a covey rise in 4 shots(single kill per shot with one reload) with an 870 20 gauge but I was aiming every shot.
Every hunter has stories like that where everything went right. It just means you are a natural point shooter. I have met a couple of other people who are like that. Not everyone can do that. Me for instance.
Natural point shooters simply don't understand the trouble the rest of us have trying to learn to do something on purpose that you do instinctively. Your natural ability wasn't learned and probably can't be taught well enough to make someone not already a natural, perform like that.
Hence the books and studying of shooting form.

[Scharfschuetze]

There is no DNA segment in the human genome that makes shooting natural. In fact, many humans will never get shooting right because the natural human tendency to flinch from noise and recoil is a built in defense mechanism. While many have a natural hand and eye coordination, developing it with good training and practice makes them better shots.

I have had many LEOs and soldiers tell me that they were natural shots, only to find that we had to start from the beginning and work up in order to qualify them. Often this meant going to .22 RF weapons or adapters to unlearn horrible habits that they had taught themselves while becoming self-proclaimed natural shooters.

I'm anything but a natural shooter, so I practice the fundamentals every time I go to the range. If you haven't had the advantage of formal training (military, law enforcement or private academy) then a good book on the topic will go a long way to help your shooting.

[tazman]

There is no DNA segment in the human genome that makes shooting natural. In fact, many humans will never get shooting right because the natural human tendency to flinch from noise and recoil is a built in defense mechanism. While many have a natural hand and eye coordination, developing it with good training and practice makes them better shots.

I have had many LEOs and soldiers tell me that they were natural shots, only to find that we had to start from the beginning and work up in order to qualify them. Often this meant going to .22 RF weapons or adapters to unlearn horrible habits that they had taught themselves while becoming self-proclaimed natural shooters.

I'm anything but a natural shooter, so I practice the fundamentals every time I go to the range. If you haven't had the advantage of formal training (military, law enforcement or private academy) then a good book on the topic will go a long way to help your shooting.


I am not even close to a natural shooter. I don't even have particularly good hand and eye coordination. I do work at the fundamentals whenever I shoot. By training myself to do things consistently and correctly, I can improve. I read whatever I can get my hands on as far as technique and go from there. I may never be a great shot, but I will keep practicing until I get to be the best I can.

[44man]

My best wing shots or rabbits were shot when I did not see anything but the bird or rabbit. I sold the TC Hawken because it never fit a human, had to hunt sights.
I had a cheap pellet gun when young, removed the sights and could take a starling off a pole at 50 yards. I shot through washers tossed in the air. Buddy did not believe it so I put masking tape on the washer. He shut up when he seen the hole.
I made my own stocks to put in the shoulder and sights fell in line. I don't need sights.
A handgun is different. It waves out there with no cheek weld. But a 1911 shot as fast as I can acquire will group better then from a rest. Same with a Mark I or II. I asked Jerry for dimes. Set them on wood and as fast as the gun would fire I took them all. He got angry with the loss of money! [smilie=1:
I shot bottles at a farmers dump. Mark I Ruger. I started tossing up, then out but I could not throw lefty good so I held the gun in my left hand and threw as far as I could with my right arm, grab the gun and break the bottle.
It goes away and a month had me start over with a toss up. No, you can't maintain it unless you shoot every day. You still don't want to face me when I have a 1911 in my hand. Or a Mark. best stinking .22 ever made.
I work backwards with new shooters. I give them a heavy revolver and with instruction so they hit with recoil management they shoot better with any gun. To see a kid take pop cans off the rail off hand with a .454 after shooting my .500 JRH. Start with a .22 and get to a .357 will twist the brain. Fear comes in so get rid of fear first. Shoot a .500 first and the .357 will sure suck.
Why you think working up works, I don't know.
Once a guy can shoot a .458, the 30-06 gets funny.

[tazman]

I owned a 458 Win mag once. After 20 shots my shoulder locked up and didn't work right for 3 days. That one went down the road.

[44man]

I owned a 458 Win mag once. After 20 shots my shoulder locked up and didn't work right for 3 days. That one went down the road.
Monster but what would a .308 feel like? Or a .270?
I had a friend here with a light big bore that went straight up, darn thing would tear the heart loose. Too big is stupid. The caliber should have been in a 20# gun. I do not suggest too big. Just larger then the gun you own. Mostly a handgun anyway.
Would I give anyone a .460 Weatherby? The thing will break your collar bone from prone.
I consider a .357 or .38 before a .22. A .475 before a .44. A .500 before a .454. Just a little more until comfort without pain. Never induce pain. It is not funny to hurt and does no good. I find if recoil does not hurt, a smaller caliber is a joy. I never want to cause pain.
To hand any gun to a person to laugh at him or her makes you so sad. You need judgment.

[44man]

I have had ladies here that wanted to shoot the .500 and did good when men were scared to death.
Do you know a lady can put you to shame?
Long ago with my flat top .44 I had my future wife shoot. I had light loads but snuck
in a few heavy 429421 loads with 22 gr of 2400. I asked if she seen anything, said a few were LOUDER.

[tazman]

My sister is and has always been a better shot than I am, so I am not surprised when women out shoot me.
I have had my butt kicked at accuracy events(shooting and archery) by women so often it has become natural.

The heaviest handgun cartridge I can shoot without pain(arthritis in hands and wrists) is a 357 mag. The heaviest rifle cartridge a 30-06.
I do practice with these on a regular basis but I don't see the effects you speak of. If there is no pain at the shot, I don't flinch.
I do however, have to fight target panic. I want the gun to go off when the sights are lined up and have to focus on controlling the trigger pull to keep from jerking both the trigger and the gun.
It's getting better but still needs work.

[44man]

That is so true. Actually I have shot .357's worse then the .475.
I have done the stupid trying to get the gun to fire when the sights cross the center--ALWAYS a miss. Yeah, archery was the same. Darn, hold tight and jerk off! Hardest was the flint lock. If you tame a flinter, you can shoot anything.
I still get target panic. Hardest thing on earth to get rid of. Faster shooting helps me. Or deer, no problems there. Paper targets are EVIL.

[stu1ritter]

Paper targets are indeed evil, they show up every little mistake you make. Faster shooting does help, you just don't have time to make all the mistakes on each shot, just a few. Slow fire gives you all the time in the world to make all the mistakes in the world.

Stu

[tazman]

I got the target panic whipped in my archery by using a back tension release aid. It is almost impossible to punch and worked like a charm for me. It worked well enough that I won a couple of state championships with it.
I hoped it would transfer to gun shooting but it was not to be. If there is an actual trigger, I want to punch/yank it.
I am working on bench rest right now and doing much better. I still yank the occasional shot out into space but nearly all are in the center now.
I am waiting for this winter when I go back inside to work with the revolver again. I am hoping my trigger control will be better.

[PerpetualStudent]

Sounds like you're well set up for reading material. Now to get consistent trigger time and apply what you've learned.

If you're like me and can't afford the time (and money) to get to a real range a couple times a week, seriously consider an air (or CO2) pistol. No recoil to blame, plenty of accuracy to be had, and the ability to practice daily in a way that won't let you lie to yourself. Dry firing is good but in my opinion only good once you've got enough rounds downrange to call each shot. Where you missed and why. Cheapest way I know to get to that point is an air gun. Work on the air gun and you should see benefits to your powder burner and range trips are much more fun when you're hitting :D

[Brian Albin]

Thanks, PerpetualStudent. That is good advice. I have a back yard range, so I can shoot any time I can afford ammunition. I have a reloading press as I loaded rifle ammo a long time ago, but I have not yet bought dies for the pistol. I have been putting it off thinking I may buy a different pistol. If I trap my bullets and recast them, a 5 gr charge of powder at $25 a pound and priming caps at $3.50 a hundred makes a box of fifty shots cost only $2.64. So I need to do that.

I do have a Crossman pump up style BB pistol with rifled bore. I bought it exactly for the purpose you mention: low cost practice. But then I got away from shooting for a number of years shortly after buying it. I may dust it off and resume shooting it.

Thanks for the advice, Brian

[PerpetualStudent]

If you wind up looking at any of "Lucky" McDaniel's point shooting stuff (another point of origin for the quick kill courses in the military) you might use your BB pistol.

In a nutshell his technique was to use a BB gun and Ariel targets, the BB against the blue sky was slow and bright enough that you could see where you missed. And after starting with larger targets working your way down to as small as aspirin tablets. The point shooting technique gets a bit of **** these days but the reactive targets of progressively smaller size, along with seeing where you missed, makes a lot of sense from a training point of view. Excellent reinforcement and good progressive shaping of behavior.

edit: huh, didn't realize that the misspelling of carp gets auto-censored. That makes it seem much saltier than I meant it :D

[Brian Albin]

Seeing where the misses go is so very important. I once heard that anti-aircraft gunners of the US Navy during WWII were trained with shotguns shooting trap with a tracer pellet in the shot charge so they could see where their misses went. From the day I heard that story, I have wanted the munitions factories to make those tracer shotshells for the civil market.

I would like to develop a point shooting ability with the pistol. I thank you for the reference to Lucky McDaniel.

Brian

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Pistol and Revolver Shooting by Walter Roper arrived the other day and today Sixguns and Bullseye's by William Reichenback arrived. I bought Jim Gregg's book after taking his training.

Missing comes natural to me, I have to practice in order to hit.

[Bat Guano]

Wow--some old time books there; I have some of them from prowling bookstores in my lost youth. Having made every mistake possible, I now know that it's all about the BASICS--sight alignment, front sight, followthrough. An old-time cop at an NRA instructor's school finally got through to me; I've been trying to do what he told me ever since. Some days I do better than others. I much prefer DA work. The best (and most enjoyable tool) has been a Model 18 Smith .22 LR; the best technique is to shoot a lot of "ball and dummy". For years I shot mostly that and a matching .357. I have more guns now--but I was a better shot then...