Quick questions on muzzle loaders

[UKShootist]

This is to do with legal restrictions on shooting deer in the UK, so it's facts and figures rather than what will get the job done.

With respect to black powder muzzle loaders of, say, .50 cal or a bit either way, what would be the maximum muzzle velocity and muzzle energy that can be reasonable expected from such a rifle (ball and bullet if different)?

For roe deer, where the bullet must weigh at least 50 grains AND have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second AND a minimum muzzle energy of 1,000 foot pounds may be used.

For all (Other, my edit) deer of any species – the bullet must weigh at least 100 grains AND have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second AND a minimum muzzle energy of 1,750 foot pounds.

[Digital Dan]

Those specs cannot be met with conical or round ball. Whoever crafted the standards is ignorant in the extreme. The American bison can attest to that.

[OnHoPr]

There might be possibilities with the newer .45 cal inlines rated for 150 gr and using a lighter saboted projectile. The energy would definitely be over a thousand or 1750. You could check out the mzldr as mentioned above with online search. They may have even made a smaller cal rifle to get those types of ballistic qualities.

[dave524]

Most .45 elephant rounds wouldn't make the grade, are you sure about the "AND " ?

[44man]

I have taken hundreds of deer to up to 300# with a .45 RB from a flintlock. Then a .50 and up to a .54. None was lacking but 2450 fps from BP is insane.
For a country involved in 2 world wars and having some decent guns although not enough so we had to give you more. A reputation for some of the best guns on earth, you sure have stupid in government.
The end result is they don't want you to have a gun or hunt so restrictions are placed you can't meet.

[725]

Agree with 44man. They have crafted the regulations so they are impossible to meet. You build or find one like that, you'll not have a place to shoot it. It would be awesome in it's power.

[rodwha]

Aren't those requirements period as in not just BP but for modern as well?

[UKShootist]

Aren't those requirements period as in not just BP but for modern as well?

That is correct. It has to be said that Scotland seems to have gone slightly insane just lately, especially in respect of firearms. As but one example, the Scottish National Party that is in complete control of the Scottish parliament wants to leave the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (To give it it's correct title) but wants to join the European Union. If the air rifle laws are in place, I'm not sure if they are, but when they are I will be able to travel north of the border with my 45/70. my .308. my .223, and my rimfires without a problem, but if I want to take a sub 12 ft/lb air rifle I will have to apply for a permit.

[Geezer in NH]

Who cares it is the UK who have bowed to all the animal rightsist.

You who hunt are the enemy

[jhalcott]

It is like that in Maryland. An airgun MUST develop the same 1200 fot pounds of muzzle energy as any center fire rifle to be legal to hunt deer with. Silencers/suppressors are NOT legal to hunt with, but people are upset at the loud noise of gunfire. The AUTHORITIES say the opportunities for poaching are to easy!

[OnHoPr]

Keep your Piers Morgans on your side of the pond. Keep sending us the Glenfiddich for after the liver & onion supper from a big slow moving hunk of LEAD. Oh, and Herman Survivors & golf clubs. No offense

[UKShootist]

It is like that in Maryland. An airgun MUST develop the same 1200 fot pounds of muzzle energy as any center fire rifle to be legal to hunt deer with. Silencers/suppressors are NOT legal to hunt with, but people are upset at the loud noise of gunfire. The AUTHORITIES say the opportunities for poaching are to easy!

With regard to silencers, this is yet another example of lawmakers not knowing about the stuff they are making laws about. In the UK silencers, or more properly, sound moderators, are relatively freely available, albeit with the same restrictions as firearms. I have a drawer full of .22 moderators as if they are for air rifles then there is no licence restriction but most of them work just as well with rimfires. Cost for these is about £40 (About $50-$55). I also have one for .223 and am buying one this week for .308. Retail price is about £200 for a very well put together modular sound moderator.

I think that one problem in the USA is the Hollywood effect. People seem to think that a .308 rifle using standard ammunition will, if fitted with a moderator, make no more noise than an almost silent 'phut'. Not true for those that don't know. One justification for sound moderators here is the Health and Safety rules for the protection of the shooter's hearing.

Hunting with a moderator can be interesting. The first time I used a .17HMR with a moderator I was laying up on a rabbit warren. A group of five were out munching grass and I dropped the first one, expecting the rest to clear off sharpish as even with a large moderator the rifle makes quite a loud crack (you can't silence the supersonic bang). Instead the other four just sat there because while they heard the crack, they couldn't tell which direction it came from. I then dropped the other four one by one.

[44man]

I have a friend in VA that bought a suppressor for his AR and it is indeed nice but in the end with a Lawyer, funny paperwork even into a will and fees, he was out over $2000 plus the high cost of the suppressor. The time it took to get everything would make a guy too old to hold the rifle!
They are very worried when you die, they are passed on to family.
Our country does not lack idiots, MD has green junk, brown a better word though, seeping out, getting worse then Kalifornia.

[Texas by God]

I'm sorry for our English friends. We should learn from their mistakes and vote 2nd Amendment every damn election. That said- UK Shootist, come on down to Texas and we'll let you hunt like a free man. Best, Thomas.

[quilbilly]

A 45 caliber patched round ball has a maximum velocity of about about 1900 fps and that ball weighs about 130-5 gr. It is absolutely devastating on our local deer that are roughly three times the size of your roe deer. Round balls slow rapidly to subsonic by about 100 yards but are still deadly on our deer at any velocity above 900 fps. Conical bullets that are much larger but start slower do retain velocity much better and IMHO are way too much for your 25 kg roe deer bucks. Conicals would be great if you should have an opportunity to hunt your red deer stags. The same thing applies to other caliber's from 50 to 69 and above although a 69 cal round ball I would think would do fine on roe deer at velocities as low as 650 fps.
Someday I hope to visit my nephew and his new bride now living in the London area and take the time to see a roe deer in the wild (and maybe share a pint or three with fellow CB shooters in the U.K.).

[Good Cheer]

This is to do with legal restrictions on shooting deer in the UK, so it's facts and figures rather than what will get the job done.

With respect to black powder muzzle loaders of, say, .50 cal or a bit either way, what would be the maximum muzzle velocity and muzzle energy that can be reasonable expected from such a rifle (ball and bullet if different)?

For roe deer, where the bullet must weigh at least 50 grains AND have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second AND a minimum muzzle energy of 1,000 foot pounds may be used.

For all (Other, my edit) deer of any species – the bullet must weigh at least 100 grains AND have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second AND a minimum muzzle energy of 1,750 foot pounds.

Hi there.
Sounds as though the regulations have been written with the expectation that shooting will take place at a significant distance, more at least than the usual for muzzle loaders.
Are there another set of regulations written for muzzle loaders?
To get back to your original question, what can reasonably be expected from a muzzle loader is about the same as the Volunteer and the Whitworth .451 caliber rifles developed in Great Britain in the mid 1800's. No one has done significantly better since then.

[C.F.Plinker]

If you need numbers get a copy of the Lyman Black Powder Handbook. It has over 30 pages of load data for muzzle loading rifles. It starts with the 32 caliber roundball weighing 45 grains. OOPS too light since you need at least 50 grains. OK lets move up to 36 caliber where the round ball weighs 65 grains and is good for your roe deer. but they don't meet the muzzle velocity and energy requirements. Keep going. There are loads that will meet the 1000 ft-lbs of energy required for roe deer but not the 1750 ft-lbs for larger deer. None of the loads meet the 2450 fps velocity required. Looks like the regulations may have been crafted so that they would not be able to be met.

[Lead Fred]

Cant get there with a 45 cal. Mine with a 140gr round ball, with a full charge (74.5gr 3f) tops out at 2033fps. (42in swamped barrel)
It drops deer like a rock.

[Jeffrey]

Extremely unlikely with black powder period. Detonation speed with black powder is 1312 fps. https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346997 The only way I see to achieve 2450 fps is with smokeless powder. Savage, at one time, made a muzzleloader rated for smokeless, no longer. After a bit of research, this is the only one I found. http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/

[44man]

We fought the English and beat them silly to be out from under a King or Queen. But they are now our best friends and Scotch is water of life. But they fight between Irish and scotch to this day. The Brits took over continents but lost in the end. Yet they still control too much. Subjects of the Queen!
We rejected rule but Canada is still a liberal junk yard with little freedom. Worst gun laws in the continent. I love the people but they can't think for themselves and do not know freedom. It is based on handouts so you can eat. Get laid off in Canada and make more then when you worked, why ever work again?
England is the same. No real jobs but get money. Where is it from? Now Brexit to ruin the worlds economy. WHY? To get out of the one world control is where Britain might be right. Our great friends over there might want to be free and the best would be to take our constitution. A paper our liberals want to destroy. Our nation is in peril for the worst in history.
Liberals here love gun violence to promote confiscation. The ruin from black death is fuel to vote.

[10 ga]

You will never meet the regulations with black powder. However I'm a die hard SML (smokeless muzzle loader) shooter. There are plenty of them here and they will meet your regulations if you can use smokeless powder in a ML. Check out

http://hanksmessageboard.freeforums.net/

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/

They should have all you need to know about SML.

Best, 10

[starmac]

We must travel to different parts of Canada, like here all of it is not rabid liberals, and also there are plenty of hard working freedom loving folks there too. They do have some odd (to us) gun laws, but as I understand it they are pretty much the same all across the country, where we have 50 differrent sets of laws to try and figure out.