Quick question on 30-30 Win. & Lead Boolits & Roll Crimp Dies

[bedbugbilly]

Hoping someone can point me in the right direction. I'm loading 30-30 Win. using several different lead boolit designs - 115, 150 and 170 grain. All out of the same Winchester 94 "Ranger" and using 1X fired brass.

.309 seems to work well out of this rifle so that is what I'm sizing them to at this point. I'm "neck sizing" only.

Anyway . . . I have an older set of RCBS 30-30 dies and the seating die is "seating only". I want to put a slight roll crimp on these (as they are being used in a lever gun with a tube magazine) - so far I've been using my seating die form my Lyman 310 set to put the roll crimp on them by hand but I'd also like to have a full size roll crimp die to use in my single stage as I will be leaving the set of 310 dies out in AZ and using my single stage here in MI.

So my question is this . . . I've seen several of the older Lyman seating dies that are marked DA . . which I am assuming is "double action" meaning seating and crimping. (I like to seat and crimp in two different operations). Do these Lyman DA seating dies put on a "roll crimp" or are they intended for jacketed and put on a "taper crimp"?

Suggestions for a roll crimp die for the 30-30? Could either be a new one or a vintage one - doesn't matter as long as it will work for a roll crimp. What should I be looking for? Lot's of times, on flea bay for example - they don't list what they are for - either roll or taper - and usually don't have any idea if you ask.

Yep . . I could use the 310 seating die which also can be used for a roll crimp and use it with a bushing in the single stage . . . but mine will be left in AZ to use there (I'm tired of hauling stuff back and forth). . . . and finding a spare Lyman 310 seating die for the 30-30 is not an easy task unless there happens to be one on flea bay.

What is the least expensive and easiest solution for a roll crimp die . . . brands that made them, etc.?

Thanks.

Jim

[Shawlerbrook]

I find that you can't beat the Lee Factory Crimp Die for reloading for lever action rifles with tubular magazines. I think they are $10-12.

[TNsailorman]

I too seat a bullet and crimp in separate operations. I buy a used seating die that roll crimps from someone cheap, take the seating stem out and adjust it to roll crimp with the crimp I want and then leave it that way. Works great for me. I did buy one of the Lee factory crimp dies but didn't like it and sold it. I use a lot of Lee items and like most of them, the factory crimp die is not one of them. james

[Tar Heel]

The Lee factory crimp die works for me and my cast bullets in the 30-30 and 32 Win Spl.

174980

[Hick]

For my 32 WS and 30-30 I only crimp if I am using Gas Checked boolits, and I use the standard (built-in) crimp of the seating die (mine are RCBS). For plain-based lead and jacketed I never crimp. If I can push a cartridge tip against my wooden workbench nose first as hard as I can and the bullets don't move no crimp is needed. Someone on this forum wrote a very nice article some time back pointing out that when you do the physics math on the recoil the need for crimping bullets for a lever action is unfounded. I crimp with Gas Checks because the GC does expand the neck as it goes in and these won't pass the "push against the workbench" test.

[tigweldit]

+1 on the Lee factory crimp die. I use them in several calibers with great results. The 30/30 being one of them.

[bedbugbilly]

Thanks all . . . now this opens up a couple of more questions . . .

I'm sizing .309 and using a .308 expander plug . . . which with the lead boolits I'm using seems to have good neck tension . . .

But . . . first on the Lee factory crimp die. I have one for my 8mm but never use it as I'm shooting my lead cast out of an old 1905 GEW98 Danzig Mauser and the neck tension on those is plenty - especially in a bolt action. But my questions involves the die . . which if I'm understanding it correctly, clamps down on the neck to "tighten" it down . . so does this not swage the OD of the boolit? Or am I over thinking it. I know you can adjust it as far as how much crimp but does it swage a lead boolit at all?

Second question is on seating gas checks - Hick - you say that you only crimp on gas checked as they expand the neck more. I'm new to gas checking so I'm not debating that . . just asking a question to learn. I am using Hornady gas checks on my 115 grain FN out of my NOE mold. It's a double - one plain base and one gas checked so I can do either. If I am placing a gas check on the base of the lead boolit and then running them through my Lee push through .209 sizer die - base first . . . does that not size the gas check to .309 the same as the boolit is sized . . or does the gas check spring back some so it is more than .309? When I seated some plain base and some gas checked - same boolit design just one PB and on GC, I felt no difference and the GC seemed to have good neck tension as well.

I'm not belling my case mouth very much at all but I am giving it just a "touch" so that I have no problem with the base sitting square to the mouth to seat it. I haven't tried chambering a dummy round without taking the very very slight bell out of it but it just seems like it is the right thing to do to prevent any possible feeding snags when chambering.

If the Lee crimp won't sage the boolit down, perhaps one of those would be the answer to just do a touch to flatten the slight bell out?

Thanks much for the help and information - greatly appreciated! I like playing with "traditional vintage/old" cartridges and I am really enjoying playing with the 30-30. I used to hunt with my father-in-laws 1930ish Winchester 94 and have probably owned three or four but over time, I let them slip away. I ran across this Winchester 94 "Ranger" with a 20" barrel - some say they aren't "real" Winchesters . . . smile . . . but I'm pretty impressed with it.

[Hick]

Bedbugbilly. The trouble I've had with neck tension and gas checks doesn't always happen. In my case, the ones I tried were just a little long. I think what was happening is that the gas check was opening the neck a tiny bit more that the lead, and then when I seated them the gas check was right down at the base of the neck. So-- you might not have that problem. I'm looking at getting a different mold (haven't picked it out yet) to see if I can get a better setup. In any case, I don't crimp anything unless the neck tension is too light. Whether or not that is the smartest thing I don't know-- it's just what seems to work for me.

[bedbugbilly]

Thanks Hick - I greatly appreciate the info on the gas checks and how you do it. All I can say is that "I'm learning"! LOL I bought a used Lyman 311-41 thinking that I would use it with GC. Like an idiot, I got to casting and cast up about 400 . . . you know . . so I'd "have enough". Well . . . it reinforced the need to check things first. The GC base on them were several .001 oversize and I couldn't get the GC on and sitting straight if I had had a 10 foot shoe horn! It was a double cavity mold and the two cavities dropped differently in overall OD of the boolit plus the gas check shank. It was probably why it was put up for sale. I have some of them loaded up as a "plain base" load to see how they fly - if they shoot O.K. then I'll use them for plinking - if not, then easy enough to melt them down. LOL The 115 FN mold that I got from Al at NOE is perfect - gas checks go right on nicely - not loose - and when they go through my Lee sizer, they are perfect.

In thinking about it overnight, I'm thinking I might just order a set of Lee dies, see how they work and then sell the other RCBS dies that I have. I use a lot of Lee things (as well as other brands) but for the 30-30, I'm thinking it might be nice to have a turret plate set up for my Lee Classic 4 hole turret press - increase the production a little and give more time to shoot 'em! :-) I did a little bit of reading on Lee's collet neck sizing die and since I'm using them in just one rifle, that might be a good one to try for neck resizing, add a powder through/expansion di, a seater for seating only and then their factory crimp IF they need to be crimped. I de-cap everything on my single stage with a universal de-priming die and I can FL resize on the single stage as well as trim casings on it when/if necessary.

I'm using a .308 expander now and the .309 sized boolits seem to have really decent neck tension. I'll play with it some more and try not crimping and see what happens. If I could get away from that, it seems like it might extend the life of the casing a little. So far, I haven't run enough cycles through the casings to have to anneal . . . I'm assuming that when I start to get a neck split in a batch of brass, it's time to anneal? Or, is it just time to toss? I've tried searching as to 30-30 brass life but still can't come up with a good number of cycles of the brass before annealing or failure?

Thanks all to everyone for your kind advice - greatly appreciated!

Jim

[Tar Heel]

Thanks all . . . now this opens up a couple of more questions . . .

You sir are on the correct path. Your observations are spot-on and ones most of us have made. I crimp these cartridges specifically to ease feeding through the Winchester action. While the Marlin seems to feed an uncrimped round OK, the Winchester balks on about 1/3 of them. Crimping has had no adverse effects and has resolved the feeding snags with the Winchester family of rifles.

Take copious notes on your cartridges and loading process for each. When you then have a one-year hiatus loading the xxx cartridge, you can refer to your notes for the specific details you worked out previously. That helps me a lot since I load for a lot of different calibers and some loading components get switched around for double or triple duty. Enjoy!

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Some rifles have a very sharp edge on the edge of the chamber where the cartridge neck catches when feeding. Breaking that sharp edge, usually at the bottom edge of the chamber can help feeding cartridges that have not been crimped, even those with a slight bell. This is a SMALL chamfer, just enough to let the cartrige neck slide without catching. I have found this sharp edge on Savage 99's and Marlin's. Factory cartriges are usuall crimped so it is not noticed by most.

[Bent Ramrod]

The Lee Factory Crimp die should not damage the boolit for accuracy as (properly set up) its imprint is at the top of the shank rather than near the base, and not turned into the lead, so it lets go pretty easily. It also helps if your boolits have a crimp groove to press the brass into.

I've never heard of a "seat only" RCBS seating die. Generally, the roll crimp edge is there if needed, and the die is turned out a half-turn or so if seating only with no crimp is desired.

The "DA" in the little Lyman seating die stands for "double adjustable." A single adjustable die would have no seating stem, and would allow a standard boolit to be seated to various depths by turning the die in and out. The double adjustable die, in theory, allows any boolit design to be seated to any depth the operator wants, by turning the die in and out and adjusting the seating screw likewise. It is better, of course, to have a seating stem with the top contour close to the shape of the nose of the boolit, but that is the only limitation. Either type of die should also have a crimp shoulder somewhere up in there, if you turn it in deep enough.

[mdi]

I find that you can't beat the Lee Factory Crimp Die for rifles for reloading for lever action rifles with tubular magazines. I think they are $10-12.
https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=30-30+factory+crimp+die&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=84743177724&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15295992392579170306&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033039&hvtargid=kwd-148529105531&ref=pd_sl_7zibmhihw_b
I use a Lee FCD for rifles on my .223 and 30-06 rounds used in my semi-autos. RCBS makes a "cowboy" roll crimp die if you wanna usea plain crimping die...

[robg]

I use the fcd on 223/308/3030 works for me .like the idea of constant boolits pull.

[Mk42gunner]

I'm with Bent Ramrod on this, I too never heard of a seat only .30-30 die from RCBS.

As for crimping the boolit in a .30-30, I also have RCBS dies and it is just a matter of backing the seating stem out, then screwing the die body down until I get the amount of crimp I want. The next step is to screw the seating stem back down to touch the bullet, then I seat and crimp in one step.

I have never had any problems doing it this way.

Robert

[Geezer in NH]

Read RCBS directions the die will crimp by a roll.

Your seating stem is to low to allow crimping is why it is not crimping. It has nothing to do with seating and crimping at the same time. It has to do with setting the die correctly which it appears you are not.

After seating the bullet to the crimp groove. Raise the seating stem all the way up. lower the whole die until the roll crimp is satisfactory. Then with the ram up lower the seating stem till it stops on the bullet.
Now it should seat and crimp in one try.

[Wayne Smith]

The way I do it is to take a case and put it in the shell holder, run the ram all the way up. Screw the seat die down until it stops - that is the beginning of the crimp bump. Drop your ram, screw the die 1/2 diameter down, lock it down. This is your crimp. Place a boolit on the case and run it up without pressure, it will stop on the crimp bump. Screw in your seat stem until it pushes the boolit down, use a screw driver. Check frequently, when the boolit is seated where it should be lock it down. Now push the ram up to the limit, this crimps the boolit.

If I am going to use multiple boolits in this rifle I will do this with an unprimed case, when I need to reset my die to this boolit I simply run this case into the die and screw the seat stem until it hits the boolit. Lock it down and you are good to go.

[MT Chambers]

I agree, you have all you need, just adjust the die properly, to seat in one step and crimp in a second step. Use a good set of dies from RCBS, Redding, Forster, and no need for any kind of "factory crimp die".

[jimkim]

Read RCBS directions the die will crimp by a roll.

Your seating stem is to low to allow crimping is why it is not crimping. It has nothing to do with seating and crimping at the same time. It has to do with setting the die correctly which it appears you are not.

After seating the bullet to the crimp groove. Raise the seating stem all the way up. lower the whole die until the roll crimp is satisfactory. Then with the ram up lower the seating stem till it stops on the bullet.
Now it should seat and crimp in one try.
I'd try that first. I've never seen a 30-30 seating die that won't crimp. That said, since you already have the die body, just order a crimping sleeve/collet and stick it in the 8mm die body. You may find a cheaper one at Titan Reloading.

http://leeprecision.com/crimp-collet-30-30.html

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